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Cellphone vendors could exit business if economy remains bleak - Page 6

post #201 of 350
From what I've seen, Blackberrys are a good business phone. Business phones are a very small percentage of the mobile phone market. Most of the market is home users: mums, dads, teenagers and everyone in between. They want a phone which has a decent camera (the iPhone's main weak spot IMO) and makes calls, but increasingly they DO want one with great games, and fun apps.

Most importantly, a lot of users desire something 'easy to use' with 'large writing' and big buttons. I know a few older people who have iPhones purely because of the big dialling buttons.

I want Nokia, Sony Ericsson, and the others to succeed, Apple needs competition, but at the moment they don't have any.

And if you think MMS and forwarding SMS's matter, they've probably been left out on purpose to get users onto email with full inline attachments.
post #202 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by darwiniandude View Post

From what I've seen, Blackberrys are a good business phone. Business phones are a very small percentage of the mobile phone market. Most of the market is home users: mums, dads, teenagers and everyone in between. They want a phone which has a decent camera (the iPhone's main weak spot IMO) and makes calls, but increasingly they DO want one with great games, and fun apps.

Most importantly, a lot of users desire something 'easy to use' with 'large writing' and big buttons. I know a few older people who have iPhones purely because of the big dialling buttons.

I want Nokia, Sony Ericsson, and the others to succeed, Apple needs competition, but at the moment they don't have any.

And if you think MMS and forwarding SMS's matter, they've probably been left out on purpose to get users onto email with full inline attachments.

As you mentioned business:

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...ket_share.html
post #203 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Their are some critical flaws in the evidence provided as I said above.

Some things you've seen as 'flaws' have tended to be flaws based on your own personal opinion, really, or cherry-picked evidence that has ignored the broader whole. You're not impassive, but rather, pretty partisan in clinging to your established viewpoint, come hell or high water.

Not that that's entirely awful, and I actually admire your persistence, but it does make you not too useful to talk to at times. Basically, when I disagree with Apple on something, I also imagine the Apple party line counter to what I'm saying, and sure enough, like clockwork, that's what Teno posts in rebuttal, 99% of the time.


Quote:
I am not saying that Apple does everything right. I'm looking at the fact that the iPhone is one of the best selling smartphones in the world.

Sure... now it is, after they released a 3G model. But yet, in the past, you've consistently downplayed the importance of 3G. So, it seems odd that you'd now trumpet how well the 3G model is doing now.

In any case, that'd be an example of a feature that did make a difference (though I'm sure you'll argue it was entirely a price thing), and something that ppl called on Apple to do ASAP. They finally did, and sales improved a lot as a result, particularly overseas.


Quote:
Early in the firewire debate. I said I wished Apple would hold on to firewire until USB 3 is available, but I can understand why they are letting it go.

Most everyone understands why they're letting it go. But really, they let it go too early. The backlash was justified.


Quote:
I don't think you were around when I criticized Apple for the way it was rejecting apps from the app store and its uneven approval of apps. I felt that Apple was risking a developer backlash.

Well, it's nice to know that once in a blue moon, you can show some independence. I'm just saying that I've never seen it directly.


Quote:
Mel and Solpism disagreed with me. So far their has been no developer backlash and the submission of apps has gone on uninterrupted. I'm sure presenting apps in iPhone commercials go a long way to making developers happy.

Yup. Apple can be wrong about something, but success can cover a multitude of ills. Unless and until things get rough.


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post #204 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Yeah, I'm going to let jfanning have the last word on this. I no longer care what he says, as he simply repeats the same thing over and again.

For someone that doesn't care what I say, you seem to be going on about it quite a bit
post #205 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

For someone that doesn't care what I say, you seem to be going on about it quite a bit

As I said sonny, it's over with.
post #206 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Some things you've seen as 'flaws' have tended to be flaws based on your own personal opinion, really, or cherry-picked evidence that has ignored the broader whole. You're not impassive, but rather, pretty partisan in clinging to your established viewpoint, come hell or high water.

Not that that's entirely awful, and I actually admire your persistence, but it does make you not too useful to talk to at times. Basically, when I disagree with Apple on something, I also imagine the Apple party line counter to what I'm saying, and sure enough, like clockwork, that's what Teno posts in rebuttal, 99% of the time.

Its quite simple. If you feel that Apple is damaging iPhone sales without BT profiles, or MMS or copy and paste. Show me a phone that does have these features and are selling just as well better than the iPhone because of them.

If this could be shown as truth and fact. Their is no way I could debate it. No one has shown this proof so far.


Quote:
Sure... now it is, after they released a 3G model. But yet, in the past, you've consistently downplayed the importance of 3G. So, it seems odd that you'd now trumpet how well the 3G model is doing now.

In any case, that'd be an example of a feature that did make a difference (though I'm sure you'll argue it was entirely a price thing), and something that ppl called on Apple to do ASAP. They finally did, and sales improved a lot as a result, particularly overseas.

Well 3G didn't happen alone. Their is 3G, the app store, and the price cut.

Everyone I know who bought the phone enjoyed the price cut, everyone I know who uses the phone uses the app store, most everyone turns off 3G because it drains the battery. I doubt many people spend much time turning 3G on and off constantly. Its likely off most of the time.

Again I ask. Outside of your own opinion, what evidence is their that iPhone sales have increased because of 3G alone?



Quote:
Most everyone understands why they're letting it go. But really, they let it go too early. The backlash was justified.


They can backlash all they want about firewire. But it will make no difference in the long run.
post #207 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


Again I ask. Outside of your own opinion, what evidence is their that iPhone sales have increased because of 3G alone?

As an Australian living in Australia, the 3G is the first officially available iPhone sold here.

Unlocked and jailbroken iPhones were quite rare here before July 11, the same could be said for many other countries.

There is also no EDGE available on my network, wireless hotspots are few and far between so I use 3.5G all the time.

Therefore worldwide sales increased as a direct result of 3G.
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post #208 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

As an Australian living in Australia, the 3G is the first officially available iPhone sold here.

Unlocked and jailbroken iPhones were quite rare here before July 11, the same could be said for many other countries.

There is also no EDGE available on my network, wireless hotspots are few and far between so I use 3.5G all the time.

Therefore worldwide sales increased as a direct result of 3G.


Yup. Americans often make the error of thinking that since they have an 'almost sorta kinda adequate' alternative to 3G (widely-deployed semi-crappy EDGE, instead of uber-crappy GPRS), the rest of the world must too. A classic, and oft-repeated mistake.

But Hill, don't worry about Teno. He's been told all these things many times before, and he still doesn't get it. When it comes to 3G, he's never gotten it, and probably never will.

He's very 'provincial American' in his insistence on not understanding the importance of it.


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post #209 of 350
You know, if you're going to insult another poster, you should at least do it to his face, instead of this little chatting with someone who agrees with you and just throwing in a slur as an aside thing, which is really just kinda nasty. In a tedious, junior high sort of way.
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post #210 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

One reason why Apple will do well here, esp now, is because of their very strong financial position.

This Forbes article which arrived in my e-mail tells a compelling story of what we'll be seeing during this recession.

Great point!. We see that even companies like Motorola lives (and possibly die) on the success of one hit model. Namely Razr. Apple can drag iPhone and its variants for years with mediocre volumes and still stay financially sound. The financial dynamics are very very different for other companies.

In a recession, those lesser companies has great pressure to not made a mistake, hence will fall back to safe options. ie not going to see much innovations there. I still don't understand why phone still have a music player where most people already use an iPod or similar MP3 devices that does great music and have very very long battery life. In fact, most music features in handsets are used just to play ringtone and not much more. I am hoping Apple will be aggressive in innovating the phone, MP3 player/nternet tablet and come up with the Mac Tablet or something similar. Apple can afford to make a coupe of screw ups like they did in the Newton days. Their recovery from such mistakes will likely spawn innovations needed to supercharge the market in new directions.

I think they are so good on the OS and software side, there is really no competition. I think they know it. How about leveraging that more so ?
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post #211 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Yup. Americans often make the error of thinking that since they have an 'almost sorta kinda adequate' alternative to 3G (widely-deployed semi-crappy EDGE, instead of uber-crappy GPRS), the rest of the world must too. A classic, and oft-repeated mistake.

But Hill, don't worry about Teno. He's been told all these things many times before, and he still doesn't get it. When it comes to 3G, he's never gotten it, and probably never will.

He's very 'provincial American' in his insistence on not understanding the importance of it.


...

Except that US (with a population of 305 million according to wiki) has a higher 3G penetration rate than the 5 largest European countries combined (UK, Germany, France, Italy and Spain with a total population of 301 million according to wiki).

The only people who doesn't understand the issue is you people.

Same thing with the issue of Americans pay for incoming calls --- there are legitimate benefits to the general public consumers for this system of zero termination rates. You need to see the total cost of ownership. If Europeans pay x dollars for 100 minutes of calls (with incoming free) and Americans pay the same x dollars for 250 minutes of calls (and get charged for both incoming and outgoing) --- then Americans get a better deal overall. Enough so that every major western country in Europe is studying it.
post #212 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nano2Gfteo View Post

Great point!. We see that even companies like Motorola lives (and possibly die) on the success of one hit model. Namely Razr. Apple can drag iPhone and its variants for years with mediocre volumes and still stay financially sound. The financial dynamics are very very different for other companies.

In a recession, those lesser companies has great pressure to not made a mistake, hence will fall back to safe options. ie not going to see much innovations there. I still don't understand why phone still have a music player where most people already use an iPod or similar MP3 devices that does great music and have very very long battery life. In fact, most music features in handsets are used just to play ringtone and not much more. I am hoping Apple will be aggressive in innovating the phone, MP3 player/nternet tablet and come up with the Mac Tablet or something similar. Apple can afford to make a coupe of screw ups like they did in the Newton days. Their recovery from such mistakes will likely spawn innovations needed to supercharge the market in new directions.

I think they are so good on the OS and software side, there is really no competition. I think they know it. How about leveraging that more so ?

As far as separate music players go, people don't want to carry too many things around. The same thing was said about integrating PDA's with phones in the beginning. Why would people want one device that isn't ideal for either function?

But, as technology moves on, and things get better, it becomes easier to add more functions that work as they're supposed to.

Except for the very cheapest phones and music players, we'll likely see all the rest as a combined device eventually.
post #213 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

Except that US (with a population of 305 million according to wiki) has a higher 3G penetration rate than the 5 largest European countries combined (UK, Germany, France, Italy and Spain with a total population of 301 million according to wiki).

The only people who doesn't understand the issue is you people.

Same thing with the issue of Americans pay for incoming calls --- there are legitimate benefits to the general public consumers for this system of zero termination rates. You need to see the total cost of ownership. If Europeans pay x dollars for 100 minutes of calls (with incoming free) and Americans pay the same x dollars for 250 minutes of calls (and get charged for both incoming and outgoing) --- then Americans get a better deal overall. Enough so that every major western country in Europe is studying it.

This is true. Europeans have often wondered why we get more minutes for the same, or less money. That's the main reason.
post #214 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

As an Australian living in Australia, the 3G is the first officially available iPhone sold here. Unlocked and jailbroken iPhones were quite rare here before July 11, the same could be said for many other countries.

Australia isn't a good example of this. Its not a valid comparison of jailbroken/unlocked sales to sales through an official carrier.


Quote:
Therefore worldwide sales increased as a direct result of 3G.


Unless you can show a study that uses empirical data that proves iPhone sales increased solely because of 3G, its simply your opinion. I believe 3G helps but I don't see it being the sole reason.

When the iPhone was EDGE only, European carriers reported that data use on the iPhone was far above other phones that were 3G. Market studies that measured world web marketshare found the iPhone marketshare far beyond every other mobile platform. As an OS iPhone with EDGE was only short of Linux for use on the web.
post #215 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

As I said sonny, it's over with.

And yet you still replied...
post #216 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Unless you can show a study that uses empirical data that proves iPhone sales increased solely because of 3G, its simply your opinion. I believe 3G helps but I don't see it being the sole reason.

Well maybe Apple should have set up an Ebay store selling unlocked and Jailbroken iPhones to drive expansion then, seeing as how some of the world's largest network providers had no interest in selling an iPhone without 3G.
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post #217 of 350
This doesn't make much sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Well maybe Apple should have set up an Ebay store selling unlocked and Jailbroken iPhones to drive expansion then, seeing as how some of the world's largest network providers had no interest in selling an iPhone without 3G.
post #218 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

This doesn't make much sense.

Companies like Vodafone had no interest in selling the original iPhone as it didn't suit their needs ie the expansion of their 3G data networks.

Voice and SMS are a fairly saturated market in developed countries and have been for years, there is not much room for growth.

MMS and Video calling offered some hope but were not terribly successful.

The only thing left is data used by Internet enabled devices.

Enter the iPhone 3G.

850Mhz US band used for HSDPA
2100Mhz Band used by most of the rest of the world for HSDPA.

iPhone 3G is one of the few handsets that cover both.

This is also the reason why not all 3G phone's are available to the US market, or are delayed, in the past most non-US manufacturers have had to make two separate models.
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post #219 of 350
post #220 of 350
Quote:

A court case in one country, involving one of the multinational telecommunication's Companies I used as an example.

Some more information about Vodafone who sell the iPhone 3G in quite a few other countries and obviously would like to add Germany to that list.

"Vodafone Group Plc is the world's leading mobile telecommunications company, with a significant presence in Europe, the Middle East, Africa, Asia Pacific and the United States through the Company's subsidiary undertakings, joint ventures, associated undertakings and investments.

The Group's mobile subsidiaries operate under the brand name 'Vodafone'. In the United States the Group's associated undertaking operates as Verizon Wireless. During the last two financial years, the Group has also entered into arrangements with network operators in countries where the Group does not hold an equity stake. Under the terms of these Partner Network Agreements, the Group and its partner networks co-operate in the development and marketing of global services under dual brand logos.

At 30 September 2008, based on the registered customers of mobile telecommunications ventures in which it had ownership interests at that date, the Group had 280 million customers, excluding paging customers, calculated on a proportionate basis in accordance with the Company's percentage interest in these ventures."
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post #221 of 350
In that court case Vodafone was suing to block T-Mobile from having exclusive rights to the original iPhone. The point is that Vodafone was interested in the original iPhone before it had 3G.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

A court case in one country, involving one of the multinational telecommunication's Companies I used as an example.

Some more information about Vodafone who sell the iPhone 3G in quite a few other countries and obviously would like to add Germany to that list.
post #222 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

You know, if you're going to insult another poster, you should at least do it to his face, instead of this little chatting with someone who agrees with you and just throwing in a slur as an aside thing, which is really just kinda nasty. In a tedious, junior high sort of way.


Teno and I haven't had a problem telling each other what we think of each other stances in the past. He's well aware of my viewpoint, and I of his. But thanks for your concern.

Far as your own tedious insult goes, well, I just consider the source. Franz and Dieder say hi.


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post #223 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

In that court case Vodafone was suing to block T-Mobile from having exclusive rights to the original iPhone. The point is that Vodafone was interested in the original iPhone before it had 3G.

So that's why Verizon (Vodafone) got the iPhone and AT&T didn't?

...hang on a second.
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post #224 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

Except that US (with a population of 305 million according to wiki) has a higher 3G penetration rate than the 5 largest European countries combined (UK, Germany, France, Italy and Spain with a total population of 301 million according to wiki).

The only people who doesn't understand the issue is you people.

The US has been gaining on Europe in 3G penetration rates recently (which isn't surprising, since we've finally built our 3G networks out to a halfway decent extent), but we still lag some countries there in that (such as Italy, Sweden, and Norway, which have 3G penetration rates above 25 percent).

Still, the '3G mentality' is more ingrained in Europe than here... in part because they deployed their 3G networks widely earlier than we did, and also because their alternatives to 3G (often uber-slow GPRS, compared to the US's merely slow EDGE) were worse.

Btw, what's with the "you people" comment? Sounds sort of like John McCain's "that one" crack. Grumpy.


Quote:
Same thing with the issue of Americans pay for incoming calls --- there are legitimate benefits to the general public consumers for this system of zero termination rates. You need to see the total cost of ownership. If Europeans pay x dollars for 100 minutes of calls (with incoming free) and Americans pay the same x dollars for 250 minutes of calls (and get charged for both incoming and outgoing) --- then Americans get a better deal overall. Enough so that every major western country in Europe is studying it.

Yeah, there is a disparity in what the Euro carriers and the US carriers have tended to charge for voice minutes (whatever the scheme- Sprint has had free incoming plans for awhile now), which has resulted in Euro users being much more into texting than Americans up until recently, in order to avoid shelling out for those expensive voice minutes. Though now even Americans are texting and pic-messaging TONS, it's become a 'cool' or generational thing here.

The idea isn't that "everything's better in Europe" (and I've deflated many a Euro chauvinist by mentioning how cheap voice minutes are in the US), but in some regards they do tend to be more sophisticated cellphone/wireless consumers than your average US user, who often seems more fixated on a 'free' phone than anything else. The Euros do seem to have more nice high-end phones to choose from.

Of course, Japanese and Korean users tend to put us all to shame, in terms of choice and sophistication.

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post #225 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

As far as separate music players go, people don't want to carry too many things around. The same thing was said about integrating PDA's with phones in the beginning. Why would people want one device that isn't ideal for either function?

But, as technology moves on, and things get better, it becomes easier to add more functions that work as they're supposed to.

Except for the very cheapest phones and music players, we'll likely see all the rest as a combined device eventually.

There's always been a debate over whether multifunction devices like music cellphones were going to take over entirely, or whether dedicated single-function devices would continue to do reasonably well, and co-exist with MF devices.

Apple, to their credit, didn't just sit around hoping their iPod business would survive the MF device onslaught. They went and made their own MF device, so they're covered either way.

FWIW, I think good dedicated devices will continue to co-exist with MFDs, and not just at the very low-end. You look at something like the newest iPod Nano, and it's just utterly beautiful, in both its form and simplicity. Also, so very compact.

Single-function devices are actually very 'Steve' in their philosophy and minimalism, if you think about it.

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post #226 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Of course, Japanese and Korean users tend to put us all to shame, in terms of choice and sophistication.

...

I can see that:-

http://gizmodo.com/361229/toshiba-so...f-geeky-dreams

Pure class...
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post #227 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

When the iPhone was EDGE only, European carriers reported that data use on the iPhone was far above other phones that were 3G. Market studies that measured world web marketshare found the iPhone marketshare far beyond every other mobile platform. As an OS iPhone with EDGE was only short of Linux for use on the web.


Sure, because mobile Safari is a better user experience than your typical crappy 'minibrowser'. But what do you think those usage stats are like now that the iPhone has 3G? Quite a bit better, you'd think. It's all about user experience, and 3G definitely helps there... mobile Safari + 3G > mobile Safari + crap-slow GPRS or slow EDGE.

Which would you rather use? Even Jobs himself said of the 2.5G iPhone, "You wish it was faster." Not exactly a ringing endorsement.

In any case, water under the bridge. 3G iPhone is here, 2.5G iPhone is now a footnote.

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post #228 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

I can see that:-

http://gizmodo.com/361229/toshiba-so...f-geeky-dreams

Pure class...


OMG, those ppl are crazy.

But in a good way.


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post #229 of 350
Btw, to talk about what the article was actually about, would anyone really shed a tear if Motorola or Sony Ericsson bit the dust?

My brother used to work in the cellphone division of Moto (before leaving in disgust), and he says that the way they execute and run their biz is an unmitigated disaster. Basically, the GM of cellphones.


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post #230 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Btw, to talk about what the article was actually about, would anyone really shed a tear if Motorola or Sony Ericsson bit the dust?

My brother used to work in the cellphone division of Moto (before leaving in disgust), and he says that the way they execute and run their biz is an unmitigated disaster. Basically, the GM of cellphones.


...

Motorola and Sonyericsson's handset divisions might bite the dust but the companies will carry on with their other more profitable interests.

They might offload the handsets to someone else like Siemens did with Benq.

What is hard to understand is SonyEricsson's dumping of Symbian, it will be interesting to see if they pick it up again when the Symbian foundation launches.

Nokia is a huge player with a very strong customer base, they are very competitive and flood the market with multiple models across every facet of phone use, you don't see that so much in the States but in the rest of the world that's how it is.

In the store I work in we currently sell 16 different Nokia's which is roughly three quarters of our range.
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post #231 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Motorola and Sonyericsson's handset divisions might bite the dust but the companies will carry on with their other more profitable interests.

They might offload the handsets to someone else like Siemens did with Benq.

What is hard to understand is SonyEricsson's dumping of Symbian, it will be interesting to see if they pick it up again when the Symbian foundation launches.

Oh sure, I was referring to the cellphone part of their businesses biting it, not the companies as a whole. Though Sony itself may be in jeopardy at some point. I used to work them, and they make a lot of bad decisions, even now after 'Sir Howard'. \

Far as SE opting for Windows Mobile over Symbian, sounds a tad desperate, maybe?


Quote:
Nokia is a huge player with a very strong customer base, they are very competitive and flood the market with multiple models across every facet of phone use, you don't see that so much in the States but in the rest of the world that's how it is.

In the store I work in we currently sell 16 different Nokia's which is roughly three quarters of our range.

Nokia is obviously the 800-pound gorilla of the worldwide cellphone market, but they are a mess in the US. A few years back, they tried to push bar phones on us, even though everyone here was into flips back then, and they all but ignored the CDMA phone market, even though CDMA is over 50% of the US market. Not exactly brilliant. They also stopped making handsets for the US themselves, instead farming it out to Pantech, which didn't really impress anyone here.

Now Nokia's vowing to do better here (for what seems the umpteenth time). But I'm not exactly holding my breath.

It's just weird how incredibly strong they are in so many places, while in the US they keep shooting themselves in the kneecaps.

...
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post #232 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Though Sony itself may be in jeopardy at some point. I used to work them, and they make a lot of bad decisions,

Did you say "Rootkit"?

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Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
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post #233 of 350
the big question as the momentum grows for smartphones, what form factors will iphone become for summer 09?, i don't see how a netbook works to apple's advantage, and how netbooks can replace a smartphone, if that is their roll. i want an easy to use convergence item.....iphone fits just nicely as far as funtionality for additional features, let the iphone talk to a keyboard, that becomes the modified "net book".
the form factor of the iphone as others have said, is so adjustable since its the os and software that it is the superior form, keyboards will be a nitch market.
form factor
os
app store support by developers
bang....the new non MS paradigm.
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post #234 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOFEER View Post

the big question as the momentum grows for smartphones, what form factors will iphone become for summer 09?, i don't see how a netbook works to apple's advantage, and how netbooks can replace a smartphone, if that is their roll. i want an easy to use convergence item.....iphone fits just nicely as far as funtionality for additional features, let the iphone talk to a keyboard, that becomes the modified "net book".
the form factor of the iphone as others have said, is so adjustable since its the os and software that it is the superior form, keyboards will be a nitch market.
form factor
os
app store support by developers
bang....the new non MS paradigm.

It should have water cooling or better yet tubes to let you run liquid nitrogen through it so you can push performance to the limit by overclocking it.
Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
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post #235 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

The US has been gaining on Europe in 3G penetration rates recently (which isn't surprising, since we've finally built our 3G networks out to a halfway decent extent), but we still lag some countries there in that (such as Italy, Sweden, and Norway, which have 3G penetration rates above 25 percent).

Still, the '3G mentality' is more ingrained in Europe than here... in part because they deployed their 3G networks widely earlier than we did, and also because their alternatives to 3G (often uber-slow GPRS, compared to the US's merely slow EDGE) were worse.

The idea isn't that "everything's better in Europe" (and I've deflated many a Euro chauvinist by mentioning how cheap voice minutes are in the US), but in some regards they do tend to be more sophisticated cellphone/wireless consumers than your average US user, who often seems more fixated on a 'free' phone than anything else. The Euros do seem to have more nice high-end phones to choose from.

Statistics from the small isolated European countries --- distort the whole picture. The 5 biggest European countries vs. US --- is the best comparison. Otherwise, we can invent some other comparison like los angeles vs. sweden --- which has the same population. The state of California can beat any small European country's 3G penetration rate.

No use for talking about "3G mentality" if they don't actually use 3G data service in Europe. Europeans would rather have a full feature 2G GSM phone with 5-6 megapixel camera with flash than a 3G phone with a 2 megapixel camera without a flash.

Sophistication is a necessity for Europeans because it cost so much for their monthly voice plans --- it's actually a sign of bad things for consumers. They have to carry multiple SIM cards because one carrier gives them better outcoming rates and another gives them better signal for incoming. They have to learn how to SMS because of high voice minute costs. They are constantly monitoring prepaid tariff changes so that they can switch carriers. Americans don't worry about these things at all --- because they have cheap voice plans that they don't have to worry about signing a 2 year contract, they don't have to learn how to use SMS so that they don't go over their minutes allowance...

I think 99% of the population would rather be "less sophisticated".

It may be wasteful and environmentally unfriendly --- but Americans never care about small cars, energy efficient appliances, water efficient washers, and compact CFL light bulbs --- because American energy costs have been traditionally insanely low compared to the rest of the world. Americans never really needed to be sophisticated on these things.

As for the speed of penetration and usage --- I rather be the turtle --- slow and steady wins the race.
post #236 of 350
It may be wasteful and environmentally unfriendly --- but Americans never care about small cars, energy efficient appliances, water efficient washers, and compact CFL light bulbs --- because American energy costs have been traditionally insanely low compared to the rest of the world. Americans never




per above____
socialist taxes
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post #237 of 350
Don't really need "socialist taxes" to fix a lot of those things.

Compact CFL light bulbs were marketed wrongly for a long time (i.e. geek talk on energy efficiency). Their sales improved dramatically when the marketing was changed to "lazy ass talk" (don't need to climb up and change a bulb for another 10 years).

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008...lightbulbs.php

Same thing with front loading washers --- sales improved not because people care about saving water and energy. Sales improved because the washer has moved from the basement to the first floor --- and people wanted their laundry room to be "martha stewart" like (with plenty of countertop space). Women makes the decision on appliance purchases --- marketing washers on geek talk about saving water and energy just doesn't work.
post #238 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Motorola and Sonyericsson's handset divisions might bite the dust but the companies will carry on with their other more profitable interests.

They might offload the handsets to someone else like Siemens did with Benq.

What is hard to understand is SonyEricsson's dumping of Symbian, it will be interesting to see if they pick it up again when the Symbian foundation launches.

Nokia is a huge player with a very strong customer base, they are very competitive and flood the market with multiple models across every facet of phone use, you don't see that so much in the States but in the rest of the world that's how it is.

In the store I work in we currently sell 16 different Nokia's which is roughly three quarters of our range.

Phone OS's are moving in the direction of the iPhone/Android/Linux mold.

That is, a "real" computer level OS.

Symbian, Win Mobile, the current Palm, and RIM phone OS's are just that, phone OS's.

They are now struggling to keep up with the far more sophisticated ones that Apple, Google, and Linux (distro's) offer.

Android is thought to have a decent chance of bcoming more than it is, with netbooks, Tv converter boxes, and even possibly low end PC's. OS X, of course, is already there, and Linux is getting there.

None of the other phone OS's have any possibility of moving beyond where they are now.

Symbian has been called "creaky", and it's more than that. You just can't keep adding features to something that was never intended to have those features in the first place because of the general design of the software.

A general purpose computer OS IS designed to be feature expanded in a broad way with upgrades to the system. But these phone OS's were never expected to need that. When they came out, no one could see the influence of something in the future such as the iPhone.

Now, their businesses are being impacted negatively by this. While right now, they are still somewhat competitive, as phones like the iPhone are 1.5 generation products, and Android is a gen. 1.0 product, while Linux phones are still getting off the ground. In another year, once the iPhone is fully into a gen 2 hardware spec, with the OS also, and Android also in gen 2, with Linux phones following, the old phone OS designs will be at a terrible disadvantage.

Even Palm is believed to be finally introducing its new Linux based OS this January.

As we've seen, Nokia isn't doing very well right now, esp. in the area of smartphones, where they have fallen significantly below 50% recently. Actually to about 43%. That's a drop from about 80% not that long ago.

They're expected to fall more.

Even RIM is beginning to lose ground in the business market, where their older style OS is being seen as less competitive.

I expect the smartphone marketplace to look very different a year from now.
post #239 of 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

Don't really need "socialist taxes" to fix a lot of those things.

Compact CFL light bulbs were marketed wrongly for a long time (i.e. geek talk on energy efficiency). Their sales improved dramatically when the marketing was changed to "lazy ass talk" (don't need to climb up and change a bulb for another 10 years).

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008...lightbulbs.php

Same thing with front loading washers --- sales improved not because people care about saving water and energy. Sales improved because the washer has moved from the basement to the first floor --- and people wanted their laundry room to be "martha stewart" like (with plenty of countertop space). Women makes the decision on appliance purchases --- marketing washers on geek talk about saving water and energy just doesn't work.

Not entirely true.

While not having to change that buld for four years (not ten), does help the argument, it also helps that it's much cheaper in the long run, and that's the argument that got consumers over here. Once the cost of compact fluorescents dropped to below $10 from their previous $20, they began to take off. Now, you can get the average one for $5. Usage has zoomed!

I decide what appliances to buy, with some input from my wife, because she trusts that I understand this better. My decisions are based mostly on quality, reliability, performance, ease of use, and efficiency, and lastly, looks.

And I did move them up from the basement over twenty years ago when we replaced the ones that were in the house when we bought it. Same thing when we re-did the kitchen five years ago.

I have my shops down there, at the last thing I need is more humidity!
post #240 of 350
I disagree with you on the OS issue.

I think it's much easier to scale up than scale down.

At the core of the Mac OS X --- is the Mach microkernel. It is no different than paying for a VxWorks or QNX kernel and then build stuff on top of that.
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