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Rumor: Apple's iTunes going DRM-free starting Tuesday - Page 3

post #81 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I'm unfamiliar as to how CD-RW writes a lesser quality RedBook CCDA than it does to CD-Rs. Can you explain it?

I think he means that when you re-compress it, the quality goes down.
post #82 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I think he means that when you re-compress it, the quality goes down.

That would depend on the codec and bitrate as I previously mentioned. If that is a concern and space isn't then using a lossless codec is always an option.
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post #83 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

That would depend on the codec and bitrate as I previously mentioned. If that is a concern and space isn't then using a lossless codec is always an option.

Unless it's a lossless compressor, you will lose quality. Just how much depends. But compressing an already compressed file results in artifacting that is nonlinear in nature, as the compressor knows nothing about what was already done to the file.

Even if you re-compress at 512Kbs, it will result in a fair amount of loss because of this.
post #84 of 110
"an unlimited amount of content after christmas" ?

I'm off to buy a Drobo !!

Many of the most important software concepts were invented in the 70s and forgotten in the 80s.

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post #85 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

You're imaging things here.



It was only a month ago that I believed that, but when I saw actual tests that said otherwise, I abandoned that belief. The page I linked shows equivalent reproduction quality for the same bitrate, and it's a commonly used bitrate too. I think it's a little different when you starve the bitrate, but it's not really happening here.

Its true, the difference between 128kb AAC and 128kb MP3 is not discernible by the human ear. Its basically a marketing myth. The real difference between AAC and MP3 is that AAC is capable of carrying more than 2 channels of audio, such as 5.1 sound, which means nothing to someone listening to stereo music tracks. The real issue for sound quality is bit rate, not AAC vs MP3. That's why I encode everything at 320kb mp3.
post #86 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Even if you re-compress at 512Kbs, it will result in a fair amount of loss because of this.

I've heard similar things over the years but I can't wrap my head around it as being true and have seen no testing that backs up the claims. While I agree that their will be a loss, I have doubts that it would be noticeable. And we must consider that those buying iTS music are not, by any definition, audiophiles that should really be caring about a slight loss of quality that doesn't affects their unrefined(?) ears and consumer grade HW.
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post #87 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

...
DRM isn't the answer. To assume it's effective at stopping piracy is to be ignorant of the reality that says otherwise.

The police state that the RIAA wants, also isn't the answer.

I think these are the two options. More of one leads to less of the other.

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post #88 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmedia1 View Post

Its true, the difference between 128kb AAC and 128kb MP3 is not discernible by the human ear. Its basically a marketing myth. The real difference between AAC and MP3 is that AAC is capable of carrying more than 2 channels of audio, such as 5.1 sound, which means nothing to someone listening to stereo music tracks. The real issue for sound quality is bit rate, not AAC vs MP3. That's why I encode everything at 320kb mp3.

I disagree. I can hear some differences, mostly in the higher frequencies. But you need a really good system, and the music itself must HAVE a good deal of strong high frequency content.

Electronic music is most susceptible to this than is much classical music.

Once you get to 256, the differences become less. At 320, it's almost impossible to tell most of the time.
post #89 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I've heard similar things over the years but I can't wrap my head around it as being true and have seen no testing that backs up the claims. While I agree that their will be a loss, I have doubts that it would be noticeable. And we must consider that those buying iTS music are not, by any definition, audiophiles that should really be caring about a slight loss of quality that doesn't affects their unrefined(?) ears and consumer grade HW.

It's true. I've worked on this myself using Pro Tools and software for comparing soundwaves. You can see it when you magnify the samples.

It's very difficult to see with most music without using Fast Fourier Transforms, but then, it's obvious. The FFT separates the waveforms into their component sine waves. You can see the problems there.

How many people notice this, or even care, is something else.
post #90 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggin View Post

But it will be interesting 10 years from now when people with iTunes libraries worth $1,000s die, get divorced, kids go off to college, etc. Today you can split the CD/DVD collection and go your separate ways. How are you going to do that with your iTunes library? iTunes DRM is easy to use, but difficult to pass on as there is no way to transfer ownership. I don't have a problem with this when it comes to music. I don't buy a whole lot on iTunes, and I figure I get my 99 cents worth through repeated listening. But start charging $14.99 per movie (at lower quality that DVD, mind you) and it starts to become an issue if I can't lend, give, or sell it to someone after I've watched it a few times.

Well, since you can now authorize up to 5 computers to play your iTunes Store purchased songs (with DRM) I imagine you can just give up an authorized computer (or two) with the songs on them. If it works the way I thinks it works, purchasing an iTune Store song (with DRM) can actually results in 5 copies of those songs. All originals and all can be given away separately on an authorized computer. And the original purchaser (or anyone with access to the account) can de-authorized a computer and authorize another one if one of the computers needs to be replaced. So long as there's no more than 5 computers authorized. So up to 5 people can legally own an iTune purchased album. Where as only one person can legally own an album purchased on a CD.

Now I'm not sure if iTune Store movies works the same way. Hell, I'm not even sure if music fron iTunes Store works this way.
post #91 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I'm unfamiliar as to how CD-RW writes a lesser quality RedBook CCDA than it does to CD-Rs. Can you explain it?

As others guessed...

Well, the post i was referring to seemed to be suggesting you could burn a FairPlay track as a music CD, then re-rip it into iTunes to have a non-DRM'd mp3/aac. In that case there would be a noticeable loss of quality.

I mentioned CD-RW because it was the expample used in the post I was responding to. The same effect would, of course, be seen on a CD-R

I don't care to keep an iTunes library full of lossless music... takes up way too much room on an 8 gig iPhone .
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post #92 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidW View Post

Well, since you can now authorize up to 5 computers to play your iTunes Store purchased songs (with DRM) I imagine you can just give up an authorized computer (or two) with the songs on them. If it works the way I thinks it works, purchasing an iTune Store song (with DRM) can actually results in 5 copies of those songs. All originals and all can be given away separately on an authorized computer. And the original purchaser (or anyone with access to the account) can de-authorized a computer and authorize another one if one of the computers needs to be replaced. So long as there's no more than 5 computers authorized. So up to 5 people can legally own an iTune purchased album. Where as only one person can legally own an album purchased on a CD.

Now I'm not sure if iTune Store movies works the same way. Hell, I'm not even sure if music fron iTunes Store works this way.

I think you've got the technical aspects right, and I think the same 5 computer limit applies to videos. However, I'm not sure about the "up to 5 people can legally own an iTune purchased album" aspects. You can authorize the computers, but does that mean the owner of that computer "owns" the music? I haven't read the license agreement that closely (shame on me!). It's possible that the 5-computer sharing is intended and licensed for "same household" sharing (ie, you have more than one computer in your house).
post #93 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidW View Post

Well, since you can now authorize up to 5 computers to play your iTunes Store purchased songs (with DRM) I imagine you can just give up an authorized computer (or two) with the songs on them. If it works the way I thinks it works, purchasing an iTune Store song (with DRM) can actually results in 5 copies of those songs. All originals and all can be given away separately on an authorized computer. And the original purchaser (or anyone with access to the account) can de-authorized a computer and authorize another one if one of the computers needs to be replaced. So long as there's no more than 5 computers authorized. So up to 5 people can legally own an iTune purchased album. Where as only one person can legally own an album purchased on a CD.

Now I'm not sure if iTune Store movies works the same way. Hell, I'm not even sure if music fron iTunes Store works this way.

The authorization is associated with YOUR AppleID. Are you going to give away your AppleID password with the 4 "extra copies" you give away???

And if that song is transfered to an iPod through one of those authorized computers, then that iPod counts as one of the 5 authorized devices (in addition to the originating computer.)
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post #94 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggin View Post

I think you've got the technical aspects right, and I think the same 5 computer limit applies to videos. However, I'm not sure about the "up to 5 people can legally own an iTune purchased album" aspects. You can authorize the computers, but does that mean the owner of that computer "owns" the music? I haven't read the license agreement that closely (shame on me!). It's possible that the 5-computer sharing is intended and licensed for "same household" sharing (ie, you have more than one computer in your house).

When I say "legally own" the music I realy meant to "legally have in your possession". If you have an authorized computer that can play the iTune purchased songs, then you are entiltled to play those songs. Right? It's not like a CD, where you can't legally own a copy that you made from a friends original CD. Whether it's on a CD media, in an MP3 player or on a computer.)

Does the same "household" includes a laptop that you gave to your kid who uses it in college, in another state? How about a computer that you use at work, but own by your company? (providing of course your company alllows you to have iTunes on it.) How about a computer in your, out of the country, vacation home? Suppose I loan one of my authorized computer to a friend, indefinately. Do I have to (or suppose to) de-authorize it so that he can't listen to my iTunes Store purchased music on it? Even if I still consider myself the owner of that computer. I can lend out any of my original CD's to a girlfriend. Can I "lend" out my iTunes Store purchased songs by just authorizing her home computer (or laptop) in my iTunes account?
post #95 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

The authorization is associated with YOUR AppleID. Are you going to give away your AppleID password with the 4 "extra copies" you give away???

And if that song is transfered to an iPod through one of those authorized computers, then that iPod counts as one of the 5 authorized devices (in addition to the originating computer.)

Well you don't have to give away your AppleID password in order for someone to play your iTunes purchased songs on that authorized computer. Granted the owner of that computer can not transfer it to another computer without your permission.

I don't think an iPod is consider one of your "devices". There's already 6 iPods in my household. Does this mean that I can't put an iTunes Store purchased song (with DRM) on 2 of the iPods?


Edit comment: I don't buy online music because the quailty isn't good enough. If the music is worth owning, then it's got to be good enough to play on my home stereo. Therefore I buy all my music on CD's (mainly used) and vinyl. So iTunes Store purchased songs are foreign to me.

But just out of curiosity. Can two (or more) AppleID accounts reside in the same computer? In the same iTunes library? Or is it one iTunes account per computer or per library?
post #96 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidW View Post

Well you don't have to give away your AppleID password in order for someone to play your iTunes purchased songs on that authorized computer. Granted the owner of that computer can not transfer it to another computer without your permission.

I don't think an iPod is consider one of your "devices". There's already 6 iPods in my household. Does this mean that I can't put an iTunes Store purchased song (with DRM) on 2 of the iPods?

The number of iPods used doesn't factor into that count:

iTunes DRM-protected music includes audio with a bit rate of 128 kbps and allows users to transfer songs and videos to up to five computers, burn seven copies of the same playlist to CD, and sync to an unlimited number of iPods.
http://www.apple.com/support/itunes/...authorization/
post #97 of 110
Hmmm... odd... I've got 4 machines authorized according to iTunes. I've always thought they were the two computers, the iPhone and an old iPod... but if the iPod and iPhone don't count.... apparently I've got two other machines authorized that I know nothing about.

Old computers perhaps??... I'm pretty sure they were de-authorized before I got rid of them though.
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post #98 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Hmmm... odd... I've got 4 machines authorized according to iTunes. I've always thought they were the two computers, the iPhone and an old iPod... but if the iPod and iPhone don't count.... apparently I've got two other machines authorized that I know nothing about.

Old computers perhaps??... I'm pretty sure they were de-authorized before I got rid of them though.

I think What Apple calls computers are actually computer accounts. So if you have more than one user account on a computer, to play FairPlay tracks, each one has to be authorized and counts against the total.
post #99 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidW View Post

Well, since you can now authorize up to 5 computers to play your iTunes Store purchased songs (with DRM) I imagine you can just give up an authorized computer (or two) with the songs on them. If it works the way I thinks it works, purchasing an iTune Store song (with DRM) can actually results in 5 copies of those songs. All originals and all can be given away separately on an authorized computer. And the original purchaser (or anyone with access to the account) can de-authorized a computer and authorize another one if one of the computers needs to be replaced. So long as there's no more than 5 computers authorized. So up to 5 people can legally own an iTune purchased album. Where as only one person can legally own an album purchased on a CD.

Now I'm not sure if iTune Store movies works the same way. Hell, I'm not even sure if music fron iTunes Store works this way.

Also, I believe that an unlimited number of iPods (or iPhones) can be used at the same time.
post #100 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

The authorization is associated with YOUR AppleID. Are you going to give away your AppleID password with the 4 "extra copies" you give away???

And if that song is transfered to an iPod through one of those authorized computers, then that iPod counts as one of the 5 authorized devices (in addition to the originating computer.)

Pretty sure an unlimited number of iPods.
post #101 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I think What Apple calls computers are actually computer accounts. So if you have more than one user account on a computer, to play FairPlay tracks, each one has to be authorized and counts against the total.

It's the physical computer.
post #102 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggin View Post

But it will be interesting 10 years from now when people with iTunes libraries worth $1,000s die, get divorced, kids go off to college, etc. Today you can split the CD/DVD collection and go your separate ways. How are you going to do that with your iTunes library? iTunes DRM is easy to use, but difficult to pass on as there is no way to transfer ownership. I don't have a problem with this when it comes to music. I don't buy a whole lot on iTunes, and I figure I get my 99 cents worth through repeated listening. But start charging $14.99 per movie (at lower quality that DVD, mind you) and it starts to become an issue if I can't lend, give, or sell it to someone after I've watched it a few times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidW View Post

Well, since you can now authorize up to 5 computers to play your iTunes Store purchased songs (with DRM) I imagine you can just give up an authorized computer (or two) with the songs on them. If it works the way I thinks it works, purchasing an iTune Store song (with DRM) can actually results in 5 copies of those songs. All originals and all can be given away separately on an authorized computer. And the original purchaser (or anyone with access to the account) can de-authorized a computer and authorize another one if one of the computers needs to be replaced. So long as there's no more than 5 computers authorized. So up to 5 people can legally own an iTune purchased album. Where as only one person can legally own an album purchased on a CD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

The authorization is associated with YOUR AppleID.

Interesting thread but you have all forgot Wiggins initial point, with DRM there is not a way to transfer ownership from one person to another. Your iTunes purchases are tied to your AppleID and will not survive your death or be shared with your ex after a divorce.
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post #103 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by aresee View Post

Interesting thread but you have all forgot Wiggins initial point, with DRM there is not a way to transfer ownership from one person to another. Your iTunes purchases are tied to your AppleID and will not survive your death or be shared with your ex after a divorce.

But if I understand it correctly, you don't have to prove your identity when signing up for an Apple iTunes account. Not if you're going to purchase with gift cards instead of a credit card. So who's going to tell Apple I died. Why can't my wife, son or daughter maintain my account if they know my password. Am I'm also correct to assume that once a computer has been authorized to play my songs, it will play them as long as the computer is still alive. And it doesn't matter if I'm not. My Apple ID is only needed if I want to transfer the songs to another computer or de-authorize one. As long as the computer remains healthy, it should play my music long after I die. Right? It's not like a subscription where the computer has to log into my account every so often in order to keep playing my songs. Even if I close my Apple iTunes account, my music should still play on an authorize computer. My music will only die when all of my authorized computers die. Not when I die or my Apple account no longer exist.

So this bring me back to the question, can you have two accounts in one computer or the same iTunes library. If you can, my wife, son or daughter can just keep playing my music in my iTunes library while still being able to buy and add their songs to it. Without me being around any more.

So theoretically, a digital downloaded song can outlast a song on a CD media. As the physical CD media has a limited life expectancy.

Of course all of this is moot if I just copy my music to disk to remove the DRM.
post #104 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

While 256kbps AAC is better than 256kbps MP3, is it better enough to to be worthy of purchasing it over MP3 at an inflated price?.

What price differential are you talking about, 10 cents?
You can also put it like this a 256 AAC is [at least] as good as a 320 MP3, so you are able to put more songs on your mobile music player.
post #105 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It's the physical computer.

Have you tried it? I'm pretty sure I authorized two accounts on a computer and both authorizations counted against my total.
post #106 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by noirdesir View Post

What price differential are you talking about, 10 cents?
You can also put it like this a 256 AAC is [at least] as good as a 320 MP3, so you are able to put more songs on your mobile music player.

There are a couple possible monkey wrenches here. One, I'm not so sure the difference is so marked anymore. The CODEC is one piece of the puzzle, the encoders for MP3 have apparently gotten pretty good.

Amazon uses variable bit rate (VBR) encoding, Apple uses constant bit rate (CBR) encoding. VBR allows bits from simpler sections of a track to be reallocated to more complex sections.
post #107 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Have you tried it? I'm pretty sure I authorized two accounts on a computer and both authorizations counted against my total.

I just tried it for fun... two accounts on the computer authorized to play my Fairplay music results in the use of TWO authorizations.
I believe this explains my missing authorizations... when I replaced a HDD and re-installed OSX, i did not de-authorize iTunes as installed on the old HDD. I'm pretty sure the new OS installation (new HDD) resulted in another "authorized machine" from iTune's/Apple's point of view.
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post #108 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by macologist View Post

Here we go again --

Big STARS will fill the arenas, and thus can give away CD's which cost them 50c-$1 to make. With $50-100 ticket prices, it's trivial.

Let them spend tens of thousands on making of a CD, and maybe a FEW of them will ever recoup those costs!

Arenas are for stars, and most all musicians are not stars!

We all leave in the glass houses..., nobody's perfect!, and the bills keep coming! And so, how are the musicians to survive, never mind feed their families, never mind health insurance etc.?!

But, most "civilians" can't relate to the musicians' struggles!!!

if you make shitty music... no one will buy your shitty music! lol....

on the other hand, I have not bought any NEW music from any MAJOR label in years, why, NO good music has been produced by MAJOR lables in the past 10 years.

so untill musicians go back to making music for the love of the art and for the love of music , and not for a source of income, we will continue to see shittier and shittier music being released.

But an old high school buddy just released an awesome Americana folk album, i paid him 25 bucks for the album, when he only wanted 10. i told him i am going to rip the cd and put it on my mp3 player and my girlfriends mp3 player and i will keep the cd locked up.
post #109 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Have you tried it? I'm pretty sure I authorized two accounts on a computer and both authorizations counted against my total.

I have an account. My wife has an account. My daughter has an account.

Each time we moved to a new machine, we (I!) de-authorized the old one before taking it out of service. At times at least one of us had more than one machine under the same account, until the old one was removed.

If you do what you do, which is unusual, you should see one computer listed for each account. The only reason I can think it might work otherwise from the way you did it, is because the computer serial number, or other computer info is being used twice, and it's a bug of some kind.
post #110 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I have an account. My wife has an account. My daughter has an account.

Each time we moved to a new machine, we (I!) de-authorized the old one before taking it out of service. At times at least one of us had more than one machine under the same account, until the old one was removed.

If you do what you do, which is unusual, you should see one computer listed for each account. The only reason I can think it might work otherwise from the way you did it, is because the computer serial number, or other computer info is being used twice, and it's a bug of some kind.

I think I'm seeing what is going on. I can authorize one computer multiple times, but it's not necessary to do so. The iTunes service and software doesn't appear to have any code to prevent redundant authorizations on the same computer. The iTunes menu in iTunes does not show the computer as having been authorized. I can only tell by trying to play a protected track.
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