Apple declares iPhone a challenger to Nintendo DS - Page 2

A lot of people would say that tactile feedback is critical for a superior game playing experience.

I'm not much of a graphics guy, but why doesn't some one create a 'drop in' console for the iphone/touch?

Something really light. I'm thinking something like (but just for explanation purposes) a PSP with the screen hollowed out and you just drop your phone/touch into the cavity resting on a thin back plate and you are good to go - as the console would recognise it via the dock connector activating the PSP style dpads on either side.

You could play right there like a PSP game or it could connect wirelessly to your Apple TV (using the iphone/touch wifi) and/or Airtunes for stereo sound..

Maybe someone has already invented it, but I couldn't see anything on a quick google search.. but people carry the PSP around now, so the size wouldn't be a big drawback, particularly if it is really light (it wouldn't need batteries as it would draw off the phone/touch).

If someone rang while you were playing you could answer via microphone headphones that you were using to play, or simply remove the phone/touch with a single click on the release lock and answer...

Did you not understand what the original poster said? This is not about eras and visions, it's about what games young kids want to play, which in and of itself dictates what platforms are purchased by their parents..

My daughter wants a DS, simply and only because of Pokemon and because it is what all her friends at school have. I have tried to sell her on the idea of a PSP as I think it is much better value for money, but she won't have a bar of it. I could be a great visionary and get her a Touch or a PSP and spout of about new eras, being original and not following the herd, but she would just cry her eyes out and hate me for it.

We bought an Xbox 360 and its precursor, simply and only because my son wanted them for Halo.

Games dictate sales of platforms. The Apple exec is a fool if he doesn't realise this. Sure games will sell in droves, but it is just a new incarnation of the ringtone phenomenon there was a few years ago with phones. They are selling because they are available and people are just adding accessory content, I doubt people are buying iPhones and Touches 'because' of the content. Until people are buying Apple hardware simply because a particular game they want will only run on it, that hardware should not be seen as a game platform.

If I were running Apple, I would be looking to spend a big chunk of that 20bn to get into the game console market - by buying content producers or establishing them. The other market I would be going for is GPS. I know the iPhone has some GPS functionality, but I have not seen anything to suggest it is good enough to have Garmin or TomTom worried.

I don't get it, why is everyone arguing sales of iPhone/iPod Touch vs DS/DSi/Wii as if one has to extinguish the other? Why does Nintendo or Sony have to lose in order for Apple to win?

If you take all the numbers you guys are arguing over they still add up to less than 100 million units. With a planet population of over 6 billion people there appears to be plenty of unaddressed marketshare out there.

It is possible for both the iPhone platform and the DS platform to be wildly popular without one having to destroy the other.

Guess you haven't been keeping up with current events. And reported ON THIS SITE, to boot.

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...ng_device.html

Having just having attended a full day at one of the iPhone Tech Talk developers program, I can't accept the entire direction that this article or the comments that came from it.

Firstly, we as developers realize that the iPhone can't compete with everything that some of the game consoles have accomplished. And I doubt we ever will, unless, the format of the iPhone is changed. Now will Apple do so on the next iterations? I wouldn't think so.

They don't have to.

What Apple was telling us during the program, that here was a cell phone on which developers were creating apps that were far beyond what everybody ever dreamed or is dreaming of.

As was evidenced, the success of the current slate of apps, and being apprised of a number of pre-releases, the extent of what can be accomplished is just in the infancy stage.

More important, what was obvious, was the fact that the playing rules have changed somewhat and that there is now a new game in town. Games that for now, didn't need all the accessories that real gamers want or have been accustomed to. Games by new and old boy developers in the business. Games, even with a 'perceived' number of limitations were being received with significant enthusiasm. Games that were new rehashes of older iterations were now being highly touted, just by changing or modiifying a few playing rules or the field.

The iPhone and iPod Touch has currently over 50 million potential 'game' players. Already, there are few million who have purchased and are actively playing on the iPhone. More will undoubtedly come, particularly after seeing a few that are in the final stages of development.

However, the format is not for everyone. Afterall, the iPhone, in particular, is not a toy. But with the sales of the iPhone and iPod Touch well approaching a 100 million units, there will be a move by many of those who would normally spend their monies on true gaming consoles towards Apple's offerings. Certainly, the prices that are being charged and the economy as such, the gaming future as we see it being developed now is well in Apple's favour.

My son has both. In fact, all the variations. Whether on his computer, console, my iPhone or iPod Touch, he has the luxury of flexibility whereever he is.

Unfortunately with the economy as it is now, I see more need to move towards the iPhone. Keeping in contact, searching for a job and listening to music or playing a game to release the tension and boredom of standing in the employment line, may become more of a norm for many. One which nobody predicted or wants. One which Nintendo's, Sony's or Microsoft's game consoles can't totally provide and one which diminishes their opportunity every time an iPhone or iPod Touch is sold.

Keep in mind though, and let's not begrudge the fact, that there is room for everybody. If we do, we all win.

I can't wait til it makes coffee.

There was a rumor going round Belkin were working on one but it turns out they aren't:

http://www.tuaw.com/2008/09/01/belki...ans-sneak-out/

It would have folded in half so you could put it in your pocket.

I can see why you wouldn't want it to be honest because it would be awkward if someone called you while that was attached.

I don't actually think that a physical add-on is needed, just better thought put into the games by developers. Some accelerometer games actually control very well but others are terrible as the car moves too quickly based on the movement so you just end up bouncing off the walls all the time.

I agree completely:

1) you can't view the future through a rear view mirror
2) future hardware/firmware releases by Apple will define success or failure, not what's here and now

I don't think the hardware specs are the key here, but Apple's commitment to turn the iPhone into a competitive games platform: having a credible gaming marketing strategy, courting major game developers, developing the next Pokemon phenomenon (Nintendo really is about creating tremendously successful entertainment IP, rather than trying to surpass everyone else in hardware featuresets), etc. Can developers rely on Apple to do what's needed in order for a real gaming market to exist?

Would Apple, say, try doing the same as the other players and price the iPod Touch below cost to get more sales, things like that?

Pokemon? Is it still 1997?

You're right about the other stuff, but people bore quickly with games. Until/unless a faster processor and more memory in particular come up, it's going to stall among the competition.

I dunno why folks are giving Frank a hard time. The iPhone is a backdoor play into gaming and more devs for the entire OSX ecosystem.

Because of the iPhone/App Store there are a lot more ObjectiveC/Cocoa developers than ever before.

As far as the aTV goes, the next rev COULD BE a console/computer crossover using iPod touches and iphones as unique controllers along with more traditional controllers. One that does both Wii like games AND MS Office.

Apple's target is very much the same as Wii/DS and not so much PS3/PSP although I could see EA porting some form of Madden to the iPhone given the demographic that owns iPhones overlaps with guys that like sports.

As far as Pokemon and other exclusives...well, Apple does have a huge warchest if it really wanted in to the gaming market. I doubt it does though. And as for Pokemon specifically, the target demographic for the iPhone is older than that of the DS. Much more in line with the PSP I think really but more casual. Besides, there's always Sega. Sonic is no Mario but IS on the iPhone and can cater to the same kind of game play.

There is a lot of confusion concerning IP cores. While the SGX IP core has been out for a while, actual processors using it have been slow to trickle out. The IP core is just a small fraction of the total die area of a chip. Companies who license the core still need to do quite a bit of designing, which can take years. For example, the Cortex-A8 IP core was finished in 2005 (before the SGX fyi), but we are only now seeing a few devices using it. That being said, I'm fairly certain 2009 will be the year where the Cortex-A8+SGX combo finally hits the high-end phone market. Hopefully the iphone will be one of them.

Have some of you even looked at some of the games coming out?

Particularly from developers like EA, Gameloft, Pangea etc

Hero of Sparta is an excellent example of on screen controls.

There is another group of developers who have demonstrated an iPhone/Touch game being played via TV out, a hidden feature which arrived with 2.2

(Note: this is a time when copy and paste on the iPhone would be really useful.)

I'd post links but can't.

I am not really attempting to say the iPod Touch is going to destroy the PSP or Wii or anything like that. I'm simply pointing out that the iPod is an extremely successful platform and will indeed likely become a dominant gaming platform.

I agee. I don't think Nintendo or Sony have to be driven out of the business for Apple to succeed. They can all certainly coexist.

At the same time their is a finite market for portable gaming. A small number of those 6 billion can afford or are interested in video games. Sony, Nintendo, and Apple will have to compete for that finite number.

I love the iPhone, and I love the great gaming apps being developed for it. However, this is ridiculous... the iPhone is by no means a competitor to the DS in gaming capability. It is not even close. This popularity contest method of determining who is a competitor to whom is nothing but marketing BS.

To be a gaming platform with any credability, you need good games, not just truck loads of terrible games.

There is absolutely nothing on the iPhone to challenge even mid level DS or PSP fodder, let alone the AAA stuff on those platforms. The lack of buttons is always going to be a serious handicap, but also is the lack of quality developers available to Apple. Nintendo and Sony have amazing internal teams, which take years and lots of cash to build.

Apple should just focus on things the iPhone is actually good at, and pull their finger out and give us much in demand features like turn by turn GPS.

What can't it do? How about turn by turn GPS? Cut and paste? Record video? Playback common video formats such as XVID? Play WMA files? Download podcasts of any real world size over 3G? Allow people to install better web browsers than the crash ridden train wreck that is Safari? I could go on...

The iPhone is a great device in many ways, but it's very, very far from perfect. Apple had better step their game up when more attractive Android devices arrive.

Five months the App store has been open, here are a couple of examples, there are many others:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIh8cXmWgmk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q462DiWU_5E

Look what happens when you pay developers 70% of the revenue stream, protect their IP from piracy and make it extremely easy for customers make purchases.

Console?

http://arstechnica.com/articles/paed...ing-device.ars

The iphone has the potential to take away sales. The DS is currently marketed to the older generation too and I'm sure they would feel much better about having an iphone or ipod touch than a kid's gaming machine if it let them do the same sort of things like sudoko, recipes or brain training. For younger people who prefer music but like some games then it's another DS purchase that's not needed.

The app store is just getting started. Within another year, the number of apps will be huge and much easier to access than DS apps as they are all downloadable. The iphone is way more powerful than the DS too (about 5 times more powerful).

Titles for the PSP and DS are pretty meagre. Mobile gaming really hasn't delivered much on these platforms. The PSP has under 20 decent games - I'd say under 10 decent unique franchises. The DS still plays on the old ones and the popular titles seem to be based on those.

Put 10-20 good games on the iphone and it's sufficient competition to be a threat to sales.

Thanks for the link Marvin, following it I found a better product than that foldy one, as that seemed a bit flimsy. Its called iControlPad. Very cool. Only problem is that it only works with Jailbroken hardware, which is a bit lame, but that is only because of a lack of support from His Jobness.

It doesn't say on the website what happens when call comes in, but as I said before I think it would be cool if you could use your normal iPhone headphone with a mic and simply answer the call.
Also, as I said before it would be great to connect via Airtunes at home to the stereo/wifi to Apple TV.. one can dream.

Maybe you have a liking for driving games, but as an earlier poster said, so many of those games are around already..

Maybe Apple could buy them out and sell them for themselves (as long as they didn't jack up the cost too much)? It certainly seems like it would have a bigger market than the iPod HiFi that came out a while ago. Man, that thing was terribly overpriced.

I don't most of the posters get that, because they aren't gamers, or haven't grown up with them.

Game franchisees sell the systems, not the other way around. Nintendo has been selling the Game Boy and various incarnations for nearly 20 years, and in spite of the best efforts of Atari, Sega, SNK, Tiger, and even Sony, they buried them all, primarily due to Tetris, Mario, and Zelda.

Graphical potential and processing power mean absolutely jack all, without the games. I have a PSP, it's much more powerful than the DS, but the DS still kills it in sales. Also, it helps that the DS is cheaper than the PSP, which I don't see a lot of parents plunking down $229/300/400 for an iPod Touch, when they can get a DS for $129 or even a PSP for $169.

Marvin, the DS is not targeted to older gamers, most of it is targeted towards kids and the casual gamer, a cursory glance at it's library would tell you that. The PSP is, and looking at it's library, of games like GoW, NFS, GTA, etc would tell you that.

It would take the likes of the major developers on the iPhone, like Konami, Capcom, Sega, Valve, and so on, for people to really take notice.

The gaming market, and handhelds especially is area that Apple, just like most everyone that has tried to tackle Nintendo would get killed in. If Apple wanted to dip their toes, that's one thing, and that's all I see them really doing ATM, but if they think they can just waltz in and dominate the market, they'll likely get their asses handed to them.

Sega, EA and Gameloft some of the big names already developing games for Apples dual platforms (iPhone/iPod Touch).

Someone from Sega was saying the launch of Monkeyball with 500,000 sales was their most successful launch ever, on any platform.

At this point in time the other big name game publishers will be looking very closely at how well their competitors do with Apple.

I'm not sure how they can guarantee support for apps though. Touch controls in iphone apps are so varied that mapping controls to buttons would be almost impossible in some games meaning you have to use both touch and buttons.

I think to be successful, there has to be an official Apple add-on but I don't think they'll do it because it's like them admitting touch controls aren't quite good enough.


I mean older as in 40+ is an additional target market for the DS. They would rather have a useful device like a phone that also did games than a dedicated gaming device. They don't care so much about the franchises like Pokemon or Mario and just want useful apps. Having 3G has a benefit over the DS of being online almost anywhere you go.

I agree with you they need support from big developers but they do have some already. I think the biggest names will start the ball rolling. You won't see games come out immediately as they take months to build and test but during 2009, a few big games will come to the app store.

id have expressed their interest too and Carmack is one of the best people for optimizing performance out of hardware, hence why Quake 3 is often used for benchmarks. A few games can build from an id engine.

You need to try playing a good DS or PSP game. The games you listed wouldn't even register on the DS or PSP scene. Go and play a great DS game such as Zelda The Phantom Hourglass, or a great PSP game like Final Fantasy Crisis Core.

What could happen on the iPhone, and I'm surprised it hasn't so far, is companies like Capcom could port their extremely touch screen friendly DS games like Phoenix Wright to the platform.

I chose those games specifically to show how the supposed obstacle of not having a d-pad/ joystick and buttons has been addressed by Gameloft, the games are quite playable, the graphics are stunning.

It still can't use memory cards, make me dinner or do my homework. Oh, and I still can't easily replace the battery.

I think Nintendo has demonstrated since 1989 that "more powerful" portable systems does not equal success. The Atari Lynx, Sega Game Gear, Sega Nomad and even the Sony PSP have all been technically superior to the Game Boy/DS line, and yet have never been able to overtake Nintendo.

bollywood makes more movies than hollywood, but not better ones, perhaps the iphone/touch will make more money than the ds or psp but not be a better platform.

It's only a matter of time before Apple get to it, I guess.

In the meantime, the iPod Touch and iPhone are going to blow away the opposition, DS or PSP.

The App store is a crap shoot to begin with. And Sega made some hot money with their monkey game. But look at the iTunes music success story. Apple-ply that to games and Apple will turn the games industry upside down. In fact, they already have. We just aren't going to see the end of the shockwave for sometime...

As for 'touch' controls. It was the same with joysticks, keyboard and mouse, the Wii controller. How long before developers figure it out in the quest for the gold mine that the App store is going to become or already is? App store and iPhone haven't been out that long in the scheme of things...

The 'third great age' is upon us.

I hope, Sony, M$ and Nokia are sitting comfortably...

Lemon Bon Bon.

??? Explain ???

First and foremost, the Iphone is a phone. Yes it can do a great deal of operations, but for one to say the phone is a gaming system that can compete with a true game built system is nutty as a fruitcake. I just don't want Apple to start focusing on turning it into a gaming platform. That is not its purpose. If you are purchasing this phone just to game, then waste your money. But I am for one using it for is true purpose...a communication devise.

I'd trade the gaming part for A2DP without having to buy a $40+ add-on that shouldn't be necessary.


It's worst than that in this perspective. As far as I've seen, none of the buttons on iPhone/Touch are reassignable in applications.


First, we have to see if Apple does anything to extend AppleTV like that.

The fact they all run some form of OS X is nice, but the apps still need to be reworked some because of different user interfaces and I understand that the APIs are different too.

I don't understand why either the Wii or the AppleTV has to have a DVD player. It's not as if a lot of console owners don't already have a few DVD players.


Maybe people make a bit too much hay about no buttons, but to assume the lack of buttons isn't an issue at all is a little silly too. It doesn't help to repeat a marketing talking point either.


Of course. The all-or-nothing viewpoint that so many people seem to hold dear isn't a realistic view of the market place. People talk as if being #2 market-wise means being banished from the face of the earth.


I'm not sure if they are really competing for the same market. There is some overlap but there are some distinctions too.

You're talking about different facets of the same device. Purpose built-machines will still be made, but I get the sense that they will be gradually pushed to the side as devices can serve multiple purposes without severe compromises to any given kind of use. I don't see Apple making changes to gaming that would hurt other uses of the platform. I don't think anyone is even suggesting buying the i-devices just for games - it looks like you're the only one that suggested that possibility, maybe you read that into someone's quotes.

I don't even think Apple needs to hit the desires of the dedicated handheld users head-on. I think this system can easily expand the market for handheld games without taking a noticeable bite out of the DS/PSP market. Growing the market by giving more people access to good software to pass the time, without having to carry another device. In the past, I have made special stops at stores to buy games, even a game system, just for a given trip. Now, I can get access to games from anywhere just by pressing the App store button and downloading one.

I was amazed to read that, in terms of market capitalization (how much it would cost to own the whole company if you could buy every share at today's market price), Nintendo is the second "biggest" company in Japan, after only Toyota. This was a few months ago, so things could have changed a bit, but still that's a staggering fact. What do they make? Wii, DS, Pokemon stuff, and uh games for their own platforms.

My take on Apple telling developers that the iPod/iPhone is a gaming platform is 1) to state the obvious and make sure developers don't over look it's potential and 2) a recognition that there is MAJOR money in gaming, especially casual gaming. As others have said Wii doesn't have the best hardware in terms of computing power, but according to the market it is the preferred home gaming platform. The DS doesn't have the power of the PSP, but it is the preferred handheld platform. There are lots of reasons for this--including unique access to some franchise game brands, but Apple no doubt aware of this situation and salivating at the possibilities. Maybe they will do like MS did when they locked up the Halo franchise by buying Bungie.

But this is really not about Apple "beating" Nintendo and Sony. It's about taking a page out of Nintendo's playbook and making a lot of money with a few products that people can't get enough of. When Wii first came out it didn't "compete" with the PS3 and XBox, it opened up the market to millions of people who were never considering getting a gaming system. I don't want to sound sexist or silly, but it's true in my experience: mom's love the Wii (Wii sports and the like not the games available on every platform) whereas they have no interest in XBox games.

As to the person who asked if it's still 1997 because Pokemon is being mentioned. Wake up, the Pokemon franchise is bigger than ever and worth billions. Apple can't do anything about that, but they can realize the value of a franchise brand in the gaming market.

Apple will still sell iphones and touches regardless of what people think it is. Apple are just telling people that they can also use the device to play games and more games are being developed for it. The aren't even trying to take over the gaming market, they are just increasing the potential markets for the iphone and touch so people who are into casual games consider it.

Yes, the best way to describe the iPhone is that it is a "mutli-purpose device".
Which is why I believe its sales will grow to the point that it becomes the "hand-held computing platform of the 21st Century".

Are you still in a hole? Pokemon has remained one of the best selling franchises year to year. Fact.

Also, whats all this comparing of iPhone sales to DS sales? Last I checked, they are two distinct products aimed at two separate markets (with some minute degree of overlay), with different prices. Sales figures cannot be used. And the iPhone overcoming the DS or PSP? Sorry, just isn't going to happen. We've seen this story before: those who are serious about taking pictures (even a casual user) will go buy a dedicated camera that's capable of taking 8+ MP photos, has zoom/flash, and comes loaded with image settings; they are not going to use their cellphone camera which (by all accounts) is incredibly limited in functionality. Likewise, most gamers will laugh at the thought of using an iPhone as a dedicated gaming console. For now (and probably for sometime to come), it will remain just like the cellphone camera: a gimmick you use on the side.

I guess I'll continue my thoughts further with a few more points. I really don't see how it would be a wise move for Apple to start positioning the iPhone as a gaming device through loose-mouthed executives. Sure, Apple has come into markets before with innovative, game-changing products (pun intended). However, if their recent remarks represent a larger underlying intention, Apple better evaluate this move carefully, as the gaming industry is a VERY entrenched market. The strong-arm tactics Apple used to muscle their way into the music and cellphones markets will not be so useful in the gaming market. First of all, look at the major players that would exist as Apple's potential market rivals: Nintendo and Sony, and Microsoft (to a lesser extent because Microsoft has no dedicated portable gaming device). But lets consider the "Big 3" for a moment. Nintendo and Sony are massive companies in and of themselves with huge war chests (Nintendo > Sony), not to mention they've been all-out assaulting each other on the gaming battlefront in the console wars for nearly 15 years now. With Microsoft, it has taken them many years to nudge their way in (after Sega lost out) as a somewhat viable 3rd alternative. Even now, Microsoft only enjoys moderate success in Europe and North America; sales have continued to be dismal in Japan (a.k.a. the litmus test of the gaming industry) with the Xbox residing in the shadows of Nintendo and Sony.

Also, Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo (suspicious acronym: MSN) are the same in that they not only produce gaming consoles, they also develop games in-house (Microsoft and Sony having dedicated gaming units, Nintendo is a full-out game company). Apple currently lacks such a dedicated business unit, even a game-centric unit at minimum. To expect 3rd party developers to provide games for your device just because it exists is a bit presumptuous. Sure, 3rd party developers are free to choose who they want to develop for, but why do they develop games for some consoles/devices and not others? Its usually a combination of gamer audience and console capability (i.e. features). And what is so special about the iPhone as a gaming device? Its accelerometer? There is little to doubt that Sony and Nintendo are busy at their revision boards planning to incorporate accelerometers in future versions of the PSP and DS. What else is there about the iPhone-as-gaming-device that's so special? The touch screen? Nintendo already has that one down (somewhat), and touch will inevitably come to the PSP as well. After that, the iPhone's gaming function becomes a matter of gimmick and convenience (like a cellphone's camera).

The truth is, people don't rush out to buy a cellphone for its gaming capabilities, nor do they rush out to buy a cellphone for its camera. They buy a cellphone because its a phone, primarily. Not everyone who buys a cellphone is a gamer, enjoys playing games, or even cares about games for that matter. However, everyone who buys a dedicated gaming device/console does so because they enjoy gaming, or is a gift to someone who enjoys gaming. And therein lies Apple's dilemma. Don't get me wrong, I hold nothing personal against the iPhone, I just believe its a bad business move for Apple if they really are looking to move into the gaming industry.