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Apple declares iPhone a challenger to Nintendo DS - Page 3

post #81 of 122
I was just thinking about how apple could support game development for the iPhone. What if apple were to buy a company like unity and "integrate" their game development tools/applications into the iPhone SDK?
post #82 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by iReality85 View Post

...I just believe its a bad business move for Apple if they really are looking to move into the gaming industry.

The thing is, they already have... SURPRISE!!! Apple's here!

The App store is a distribution model that is leaps and bounds ahead of the "competitors" who rely on an older distribution of physical media along with associated costs to deliver their products to consumers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrpiddly View Post

I was just thinking about how apple could support game development for the iPhone. What if apple were to buy a company like unity and "integrate" their game development tools/applications into the iPhone SDK?

The tools are already there take a look at what some of the bigger games developers ARE doing RIGHT NOW.

Here is some further reading including sites devoted to iPhone/Touch gaming.

http://www.ipwngames.com/
http://arstechnica.com/journals/appl...ndustry-giants
http://www.tiltgamer.com/
http://www.pocketgamer.biz/r/PG.Biz/...ws.asp?c=10333
http://www.iphonegameplay.com/

I can tell you one thing, nothing wipes the smarmy grin off an <insert phone brand of choice here> owner's face as they babble on about how their phone is better because of X Megapixel camera, flash, MMS, bluetooth... blah blah blah, than firing up some of these games and showing them.

Stunned silence is an understatement of the reaction that usually follows, especially if you jump in and out of a few in quick succession, which shows off the speed of the OSX interface and it's memory management prowess.

Edit:-

Look who just jumped in, ever heard of Namco?

http://www.iphonegameplay.com/2008/1...love-katamari/
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post #83 of 122
No they are not competing for the exact same markets. In a general sense they are all in competition for users and revenue from games.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I'm not sure if they are really competing for the same market. There is some overlap but there are some distinctions too.
post #84 of 122
Unlike Nintendo, Sony, or XBox gaming systems, the iPhone is fairly open to anyone.

EA, Sega and others are major developers who have made extremely successful games for the iPhone. With the app store expected to become a billion dollar operation you can believe the others are working on iPhone games.

The iPhone is not necessarily in direct competition with the DS. Because of the DS is a dedicated platform with exclusive games. The iPhone doesn't depend on games to be successful. Games are more an enhancement to what the iPhone can do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness View Post

I don't most of the posters get that, because they aren't gamers, or haven't grown up with them.

It would take the likes of the major developers on the iPhone, like Konami, Capcom, Sega, Valve, and so on, for people to really take notice.

The gaming market, and handhelds especially is area that Apple, just like most everyone that has tried to tackle Nintendo would get killed in. If Apple wanted to dip their toes, that's one thing, and that's all I see them really doing ATM, but if they think they can just waltz in and dominate the market, they'll likely get their asses handed to them.
post #85 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

The tools are already there take a look at what some of the bigger games developers ARE doing RIGHT NOW.

Here is some further reading including sites devoted to iPhone/Touch gaming.

http://www.ipwngames.com/
http://arstechnica.com/journals/appl...ndustry-giants
http://www.tiltgamer.com/
http://www.pocketgamer.biz/r/PG.Biz/...ws.asp?c=10333
http://www.iphonegameplay.com/

Something like unity is not geared for bigger developers like EA who have the time and money to write their own complex and efficient engines for the iPhone.

(although that is not to say that big developers would have no use for unity.)
post #86 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by tecton View Post

bollywood makes more movies than hollywood, but not better ones, perhaps the iphone/touch will make more money than the ds or psp but not be a better platform.

that's not a bad point. i think everybody seems to be forgetting that games on the iphone are always going to be an afterthought for the consumer. nobody buys their kids an iphone with the associated monthly costs as a gaming device. however - the casual gaming market, particularly the 40+ crowed somebody mentioned, that is now being targeted by the ds, will more likely buy a game for their iphone rather then going out and buy a ds just for gaming.

i don't see a point in getting into a pissing contest over which is better. it's a barely overlapping target audience. which makes the quoted statement sound more like marketing speak than actual strategy on apple's part. iphones and ipod touches will sell games, but i doubt a lot of gamers think that the choice is between the two.

lets also not forget why so many developers ditched the mac over the years: abysmal support from apple, due to steve's paranoia that the mac will be conceived as a 'toy' in the early days. so to look at the iphone's osx as a backdoor into the mac market sees dubious to me. in that case, bootcamp was the backdoor to gaming, and again not the serious ones that scream for faster/better/newer graphics cards.

apple will never get into the console market either. they abandoned the 'pippin' fairly early in its development, and i'm sure it hasn't escaped the folks in cupertino that microsoft spent huge amounts of money just to get a slice of the gaming market. maybe microsoft can afford to burn money for bragging rights, but that's not steve's way...

i don't think apple has a gaming strategy. sure, if their developers come up with cool games, they'll mention it in a 'oh yeah, it does games too' kind of way. are they happy games are selling for the iphone? sure! are they seriously going after the market? i doubt it.
post #87 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness View Post

I don't most of the posters get that, because they aren't gamers, or haven't grown up with them.

Game franchisees sell the systems, not the other way around. Nintendo has been selling the Game Boy and various incarnations for nearly 20 years, and in spite of the best efforts of Atari, Sega, SNK, Tiger, and even Sony, they buried them all, primarily due to Tetris, Mario, and Zelda.

Graphical potential and processing power mean absolutely jack all, without the games. I have a PSP, it's much more powerful than the DS, but the DS still kills it in sales. Also, it helps that the DS is cheaper than the PSP, which I don't see a lot of parents plunking down $229/300/400 for an iPod Touch, when they can get a DS for $129 or even a PSP for $169.

Marvin, the DS is not targeted to older gamers, most of it is targeted towards kids and the casual gamer, a cursory glance at it's library would tell you that. The PSP is, and looking at it's library, of games like GoW, NFS, GTA, etc would tell you that.

It would take the likes of the major developers on the iPhone, like Konami, Capcom, Sega, Valve, and so on, for people to really take notice.

The gaming market, and handhelds especially is area that Apple, just like most everyone that has tried to tackle Nintendo would get killed in. If Apple wanted to dip their toes, that's one thing, and that's all I see them really doing ATM, but if they think they can just waltz in and dominate the market, they'll likely get their asses handed to them.

i think you're right on the 'game franchises sell the systems' part, and that model makes sense for dedicated gaming machines. hardware design cost boatloads of money. sega saw the writing on the wall. i remember reading an interview with sega's then boss (don't remember the name, sorry) five years before they pulled out of the hardware market. in the interview he practically announced that they were going that route. why bother risking hundreds of millions of dollars in hardware development, when you can pick the platform (or two or three) that you develop for?

consoles are usually sold at a loss, particularly when they first appear. there is a reason why microsoft hides the revenue of the xbox by combining them with other divisions of the company. their shareholders would be screaming if they published the amount of money being spent to acquire a pice of the gaming pie. in the long run, they may actually make money, but it's a high risk game. sony's difficulties in selling the ps3 at a reasonably price without losing too much money in the process are also well documented. it helps that the ps3 is a decent bluray player.

in the case of the iphone/ipod touch, the game developers have to decide if the number of the available hardware units warrant the cost of spending money in making games. differences in hardware (lack of buttons and other 'restrictions' of the platform) will make it hard to port certain games. it's going to take a breakthrough game that really takes advantage of the hardware. right now this is probably a 'wait and see' game for the owners of any big game franchise. nintendo has no interest in supporting anybody elses devices. neither do microsoft (who went on a developer shopping spree to gain some street cred) or sony, which wants you to buy their systems.

apple is doing the right thing. provide the sales infrastructure through the app store, take a cut of any sales, and occasionally talk up the platform for gaming. i don't think apple is interested in 'waltzing in and taking over' the gaming market. with their current approach, they risk very little. are they going to spend massive amounts of resources in helping game development? probably not. but if somebody comes up with the 'next big thing', something that takes advantage of multitouch in a way that can't be done on other platforms, they'll be happy to feature it in an ad. and if not - what did they lose?
post #88 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Look who just jumped in, ever heard of Namco?

http://www.iphonegameplay.com/2008/1...love-katamari/

While it's nice Namco are on the platform they're hardly bringing their A game are they? The Katamari port is incredibly poor, and quite laughable compared to the PSP version.

The same can be said of SEGA, witness the mediocre port of Monkeyball, or the absolutely shockingly bad port of Columns/Puyo Puyo. And EA, with the terrible Spore mini game.

If one was to compare iPhone games, even the best of the sorry bunch, to the quality expected on the DS or PSP there wouldn't be a single game even worth picking up from a bargain bin.
post #89 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by kotatsu View Post

And EA, with the terrible Spore mini game.

You obviously haven't seen the Java version available for other handsets.

Besides it is now more than just spore:-

http://www.eamobile.com/Web/ipod-games

Gameloft:-

http://www.gameloft.com/iphone-games/

Konami already released Frogger for the iPhone.

Atari:-

http://www.atari.com/us/platform/iphone

You are making the same mistake a lot of other manufacturers have made focussing on why they are better while underestimating what the iPhone can do.
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post #90 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

The App store is a distribution model that is leaps and bounds ahead of the "competitors" who rely on an older distribution of physical media along with associated costs to deliver their products to consumers.

I'm not sure what you mean? If I go to the PSN Store on my PSP I can purchase and download games straight to my PSP. And associated cost to deliver the products to the consumer? That is built in to the price of the game, why do you think Apple takes a cut of games from the App store, to cover the associated costs, except the consumer can still be hit if they exceed their internet cap.
post #91 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

I'm not sure what you mean? If I go to the PSN Store on my PSP I can purchase and download games straight to my PSP. And associated cost to deliver the products to the consumer? That is built in to the price of the game, why do you think Apple takes a cut of games from the App store, to cover the associated costs, except the consumer can still be hit if they exceed their internet cap.

Do you always buy games that way or do you go to a store and buy physical media?

It's a bit hard to exceed your Internet Cap as the App store only allows the downloading of Apps larger than 10MB via WiFi.

If you had one you'd know that, you'd also be able to judge the quality of the games based on first hand experience rather than second hand reports.
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post #92 of 122
I've got a few games on my iPod touch but I've yet to find anything with any real longevity.

If I was to compile a list of my top 20 handheld games, not a single iPod touch game would make the cut.

The kind of games we're seeing on the App Store at the moment are no-where near the likes of Mario, Zelda, Advance Wars, Phoenix Wright, Professor Layton et al. Perhaps the low price of apps on the App Store is holding back games with any depth?
post #93 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

I've got a few games on my iPod touch but I've yet to find anything with any real longevity.

If I was to compile a list of my top 20 handheld games, not a single iPod touch game would make the cut.

The kind of games we're seeing on the App Store at the moment are no-where near the likes of Mario, Zelda, Advance Wars, Phoenix Wright, Professor Layton et al. Perhaps the low price of apps on the App Store is holding back games with any depth?

Have you tried Brothers in Arms or Hero of Sparta yet?

Hero of Sparta takes a good 4 or 5 hours to get through.

They are getting there.

Maybe something episodic like what Valve has done with the Half Life 2 series would be more suitable.

I wonder if ID's working on anything.

Games are still a gamble you never know what the big hits will be, things like Pokemon and The Sims sound like rubbish to hard core gamers but are among the biggest sellers ever.
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post #94 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Do you always buy games that way or do you go to a store and buy physical media?

I buy the physical media, as then I have something that I can physical re-sell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

It's a bit hard to exceed your Internet Cap as the App store only allows the downloading of Apps larger than 10MB via WiFi.

That doesn't make any sense, you are saying that you can't break your internet cap, as Apples over 10MB have to go via w-fi? And that wi-fi is connected to what exactly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

If you had one you'd know that, you'd also be able to judge the quality of the games based on first hand experience rather than second hand reports.

I didn't make any comment about the quality of the games, you just said that the other game manufactures didn't have a store you could buy games off. Also I don't want to purchase an iPhone, I was thinking of a touch, but all models are quite a lot more expensive than a PSP, or NDS
post #95 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Have you tried Brothers in Arms or Hero of Sparta yet?.

I've played both the iPhone and DS versions of Brothers in Arms. Technically very good but the gameplay is pretty ropey. Developers trying to recreate home console games on handhelds really don't get what makes a great portable game. All of the best Nintendo DS games are either exclusives or based on older home console games.

Quote:
I wonder if ID's working on anything.

I believe that they are. Whatever it is, hopefully they'll license their engine to other developers.
post #96 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

I buy the physical media, as then I have something that I can physical re-sell.

So you pay a higher initial cost based on the distribution model.

Quote:
That doesn't make any sense, you are saying that you can't break your internet cap, as Apples over 10MB have to go via w-fi? And that wi-fi is connected to what exactly?

To my home Internet plan which is "shaped" to a lower speed yet costs a flat amount, no matter how much I download.

Quote:
I didn't make any comment about the quality of the games, you just said that the other game manufactures didn't have a store you could buy games off. Also I don't want to purchase an iPhone, I was thinking of a touch, but all models are quite a lot more expensive than a PSP, or NDS

Often three year old hardware does cost less, perhaps you could pick up an Atari Lynx for even less.

Perhaps I should clarify to pander to your pedantic nature.

Originally Posted by hill60 View Post
The App store is a distribution model that is leaps and bounds ahead of the "competitors" who rely on an older distribution of physical media along with associated costs to deliver their products to consumers.

As in Nintendo, Sony, etc derive their main profits from physical media.

Tacking on some direct delivery methods does not mean that producing and distributing physical media is not still factored into the cost, which is why for the most part these games cost more than purchasing a game for the iPhone/iPod Touch.

App store games can be sold for less because they don't have these additional costs.
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post #97 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

So you pay a higher initial cost based on the distribution model.

Maybe, maybe not. With the physical model you have the advantage that there is a number of places selling it, each of which can discount the game. And with the PS3, and PSP, and the NDS you have the option of purchasing the game from any location in the world as the games are region free.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

To my home Internet plan which is "shaped" to a lower speed yet costs a flat amount, no matter how much I download.

That tends to be the Aussie/NZ way of things, not like that everywhere

Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Often three year old hardware does cost less, perhaps you could pick up an Atari Lynx for even less.

The PSP 3000 is not three years old.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Perhaps I should clarify to pander to your pedantic nature.

Originally Posted by hill60 View Post
The App store is a distribution model that is leaps and bounds ahead of the "competitors" who rely on an older distribution of physical media along with associated costs to deliver their products to consumers.

As in Nintendo, Sony, etc derive their main profits from physical media.

So? You have quoted yourself saying that the Apple App Store is a distribution model that is leaps and bounds ahead of the "competitors". The PSP has a online distribution method the same as the App Store, it doesn't matter that you can also purchase games via a physical media, you have the option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Tacking on some direct delivery methods does not mean that producing and distributing physical media is not still factored into the cost, which is why for the most part these games cost more than purchasing a game for the iPhone/iPod Touch.

App store games can be sold for less because they don't have these additional costs.

So? How does that invalidate the fact that Sony has an online store for the purchasing of games from the PSP? Games that do not need physical media.
post #98 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Maybe, maybe not. With the physical model you have the advantage that there is a number of places selling it, each of which can discount the game. And with the PS3, and PSP, and the NDS you have the option of purchasing the game from any location in the world as the games are region free.

Valve has been running a PC game app store for a number of years now. It's pretty neat and offers pretty much all of the functionality of the Apple app store.

And yet I still choose to buy games on physical media. Why? Because they're cheaper! A game on Steam is usually cheaper than the recommended retail price of the boxed version but it's more expensive than a lot of online retailers.

Physical media retailers have a lot more sales too.
post #99 of 122
The iPhone/iPod Touch are really more of a PSP competitor than a DS.

iPod nano 5th Gen 8GB Orange, iPad 3rd Gen WiFi 32GB White
MacBook Pro 15" Core i7 2.66GHz 8GB RAM 120GB Intel 320M
Mac mini Core 2 Duo 2.4GHz 8GB RAM, iPhone 5 32GB Black

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iPod nano 5th Gen 8GB Orange, iPad 3rd Gen WiFi 32GB White
MacBook Pro 15" Core i7 2.66GHz 8GB RAM 120GB Intel 320M
Mac mini Core 2 Duo 2.4GHz 8GB RAM, iPhone 5 32GB Black

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post #100 of 122
The Apple model does not have physical media at all, unless you want to include iTunes gift cards.

Zero, zip, none, all those other devices do.

You do not go into a retail store to buy games at all, you can't buy second hand copies on EBay.

This is the difference, which is not the same as "PSP owners can buy SOME titles directly".

The closest model to App store is N-Gage for Nokia, which has not been terribly successful.

I guess we'll have to wait and see how App store is going longer term, remember it hasn't even been in existence for 6 months yet.
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post #101 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by iReality85 View Post

I guess I'll continue my thoughts further with a few more points. I really don't see how it would be a wise move for Apple to start positioning the iPhone as a gaming device through loose-mouthed executives.
.....[lots of stuff deleted] ...I just believe its a bad business move for Apple if they really are looking to move into the gaming industry.

A lot of response to nonsense. Apple is not positioning iPhone AS a gaming device.

It is positioning the cocoa touch platform as just that, a platform, where there are a lot of possibilities on what can be done very well. Nothing said at the conference implied anything different, the article could have been written much better.
post #102 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aizmov View Post

The iPhone/iPod Touch are really more of a PSP competitor than a DS.

Not in the slightest. The DS is more focussed on casual games (that tend to use the touch screen) than the PSP, which usually goes the more traditional/hardcore route. Have a look at the app store, the vast majority of the games on offer are extremely shallow and casual.

That said, at least the DS actually has a control pad and some buttons, so when it wants to do a traditional game it still can do.
post #103 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by kotatsu View Post

Not in the slightest. The DS is more focussed on casual games (that tend to use the touch screen) than the PSP, which usually goes the more traditional/hardcore route. Have a look at the app store, the vast majority of the games on offer are extremely shallow and casual.

That said, at least the DS actually has a control pad and some buttons, so when it wants to do a traditional game it still can do.

Pokemon isn't exactly hard core, yet it is one of their biggest sellers.
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post #104 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post

I could be a great visionary and get her a Touch or a PSP and spout of about new eras, being original and not following the herd, but she would just cry her eyes out and hate me for it.

No offense, but the PSP is the non-original here. While it has a few innovative games, Nintendo's system is, by definition, original - look at its layout and input devices. And while there's plenty of garbage, there are *so* many good and innovative games that take advantage of its unique properties that it's overwhelming at times. Nintendo didn't follow the herd here. If they did, we'd be playing whatever the next iteration of the GameBoy Advance is, and I bet it'd be close to what the PSP currently is.
post #105 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

I chose those games specifically to show how the supposed obstacle of not having a d-pad/ joystick and buttons has been addressed by Gameloft, the games are quite playable, the graphics are stunning.

Graphics do not make a game, Everyone knows this. If it were true, the PSP and PS3 would be dominating the DS (not even close) and the Wii would be completely gone by now. Hmmm... now how's it going right now? Sure, graphics bring the appeal, but the long term enjoyment comes DIRECTLY from gameplay, and Nintendo knows how to get that going like few others in the industry.

As to the d-pad and buttons, I wasn't impressed. Tactile feedback is INCREDIBLY important for precise moves; what I saw there was general button mashing and vague movements done by the onscreen character. Again, ok for casual gaming, but in the face of the DS and PSP, it just looks ridiculous, and anyone with those systems wouldn't pay a dime for such shoddy controls.
post #106 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Pokemon isn't exactly hard core, yet it is one of their biggest sellers.

And how exactly is that contradictory to what he said?

PSP == traditional/hardcore crowd
DS == aims for the casual crowd but also has games the hardcore want.
Pokemon is on the DS. Not to mention that if you knew anything about Pokemon, the game mechanics are much deeper than most people assume from face value (and much deeper than touch/iphone games, with the exception of things like Chess and all that).
post #107 of 122
the App Store has really made a difference here. How Apple made it so easy for people to download apps, specially games.
post #108 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by sared View Post

the App Store has really made a difference here. How Apple made it so easy for people to download apps, specially games.

The presence of the App Store but the absence of of Brick and Mortar software shops is even better.

Selling a PSP or DS title through a shop takes about 50% revenue away from the game's publishers and developers. This doubles the retail price and often takes it above an impulse purchase level.

The second problem is shelf space. Retaillers only want to stock lines that sell in big quantities. So they clear the shelves of older stock and push newer and more profitable lines. Perfectly good older titles are disappeared.

Then there is the pre-owned market, which allows retailers to make their money again. But of course no cash gets back to the game developers or publishers.

The games industry can't wait to move everything 100% electronic distribution and cut out these very expensive middle men.

C.
post #109 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by lidofido View Post

Graphics do not make a game, Everyone knows this. If it were true, the PSP and PS3 would be dominating the DS (not even close) and the Wii would be completely gone by now. Hmmm... now how's it going right now? Sure, graphics bring the appeal, but the long term enjoyment comes DIRECTLY from gameplay, and Nintendo knows how to get that going like few others in the industry.

As to the d-pad and buttons, I wasn't impressed. Tactile feedback is INCREDIBLY important for precise moves; what I saw there was general button mashing and vague movements done by the onscreen character. Again, ok for casual gaming, but in the face of the DS and PSP, it just looks ridiculous, and anyone with those systems wouldn't pay a dime for such shoddy controls.

The WII is for casual games, it is doing quite well.

The DS is for casual games, it dominates.

The games for the iPhone are too casual...

Is there a pattern emerging here?

So let's wait for some numbers and see how that translates into revenue, I think a lot of people will be surprised.

Edit:-

Could EA have hit upon the "killer app"?

Sim city has just been released, from reports I've seen so far it isn't much different to Sim city 3000 from the PC
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post #110 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by lidofido View Post

As to the d-pad and buttons, I wasn't impressed. Tactile feedback is INCREDIBLY important for precise moves; what I saw there was general button mashing and vague movements done by the onscreen character. Again, ok for casual gaming, but in the face of the DS and PSP, it just looks ridiculous, and anyone with those systems wouldn't pay a dime for such shoddy controls.

The iPhone and iPodTouch lack mashable tactile buttons, which rules out certain classes of gameplay. And yeah - taking old games and mapping buttons to on-screen touch controls is lame.


But.. and it's a big but.

The DS does not have a huge multi-touch screen. There are new classes of game that can be created on the iPhone that would not be possible on the DS or the PSP.

Successful games on the iPhone need developers to draw on its unique features and make use of them. To do this means rethinking the game's control method entirely.

C.
post #111 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

The WII is for casual games, it is doing quite well.

The DS is for casual games, it dominates.

The games for the iPhone are too casual...

Is there a pattern emerging here?

So let's wait for some numbers and see how that translates into revenue, I think a lot of people will be surprised.

Edit:-

Could EA have hit upon the "killer app"?

Sim city has just been released, from reports I've seen so far it isn't much different to Sim city 3000 from the PC

You need to follow threads much more carefully. To break it down:

The PSP does well because it's got a good library of traditionally appealing games to gamers.

DS dominates because it's casual, but brings the gameplay and has the controls to support a wide range of games, from casual to hardcore.

The iPhone/touch doesn't have very good controls for gameplay beyond basic games... so far. As the Wii has shown, there is plenty of room for innovation. Unfortunately, there is nothing to suggest that the innovation has arrived, as the "best" game presented to far (Heroes of Sparta) is a traditional, side scroller with messy controls that does nothing innovative with the strengths of the platform. Graphics are a given, but do not make a good game.

The iPhone is an ok platform for casual gamers; good for it, more power to the platform. Will it unseat the DS? For the near future, no way; it's not even a contest. For the next few years, *maybe* the iPhone will move to a point where it *could* become a concern for Nintendo, but that would require much more innovation than the current crop of games shows; Heroes of Sparta? Not it. SimCity? Please. Wake me up when they get something like Lumines/Meteos - simple, straightforward games that anyone can play, and sold TRUCKLOADS for the PSP and DS.
post #112 of 122
Actually "Hero of Sparta" is 3D as can be clearly seen when the virtual joystick and buttons are successfully "mashed" to pull off the special moves, where the camera zooms into a close up of sword wielding action, of course if you'd actually played the game you would know this.

A lot of people do not have the time to play "hard core" games or spend hundreds of dollars on consoles and games.

This is why casual games are so successful, something that doesn't cost much, that you can have some fun killing short periods of time with, that is easily and readily available and that give you plenty of variety..

Enter the iPhone which has these features in spades.
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post #113 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Actually "Hero of Sparta" is 3D as can be clearly seen when the virtual joystick and buttons are successfully "mashed" to pull off the special moves, where the camera zooms into a close up of sword wielding action, of course if you'd actually played the game you would know this.

A lot of people do not have the time to play "hard core" games or spend hundreds of dollars on consoles and games.

This is why casual games are so successful, something that doesn't cost much, that you can have some fun killing short periods of time with, that is easily and readily available and that give you plenty of variety..

Enter the iPhone which has these features in spades.

Um, you don't really know what a modern side scroller is, do you (hint: 2d design can easily incorporate 3d models)? And at which point did I say casual games are not important? If you'll notice, I clearly place the success of the DS and the Wii on that exact premise multiple times. Please read more carefully.

At this point in time, the iPhone has mediocre games which grow old quickly. There is a difference between straightforward, simple games which have incredible depth and can be played casually (Meteos, Lumines), and repetitive, cookie cutter games which grow stale after a few minutes of play. The iPhone does NOT have the former in spades, and has the latter everywhere (aka shovelware). For an example of what needs to be done on the iPhone to realize its full potential, play something like LocoRoco. If and when these games start appearing, you can start counting it as some kind of mobile gaming competitor. Until then, it's just a cellphone-level gaming system and will be relegated as such.
post #114 of 122
Well tell that to the people who are downloading millions of games every day, the thousands of developers who are working on games, the big games publishers who are entering the App store.

This is big money business I think your personal opinions are irrellevant.

Rolando another game has been released, every day I am given more examples to refute your negativity.

Remember this the most played game ever on any platform is probably solitaire on Windows PC's.
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post #115 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by lidofido View Post

Until then, it's just a cellphone-level gaming system and will be relegated as such.

As a games developer, I have to disagree.
The gaming potential of the iPhone platform is huge.

In terms of the market, the number of units out there is already impressive.
Including iPod Touch, we are heading for 20 million units?
The PSP is at 44 million and that took 4 years.

The commercial model for iPhone is really good for developers - and is starting to attract some big players. With Konami announcing Metal Gear Solid this week. PSP development is expensive, and you might have noticed that new titles have dried up.

In terms of software...
The iPhone SDK is remarkable and lets developers get games running really quickly. The PSP and DS are both quirky machines to develop for.

In terms of the hardware...
The CPU is stronger than the PSP or the DS
the GPU is better than the PSP or the DS.
The Screen has a higher resolution than the PSP (and about the same size)

The control method is where it gets interesting.
PSP - Buttons, Joystick and Tilt
DS - Buttons & Stylus
iPHone - Tilt and Multitouch screen.

The lack of buttons is a problem if you want an old style title that is reliant on button mashing.
But multi-touch is a *better* control method for games that require exploration and direct manipulation. I don't think we have scratched the surface yet in terms of how this can be exploited.

Just like the Wii - games have to be designed with this in mind. Simply mapping button mashers to virtual buttons is lame. But multi-touch opens up entirely new interaction possibilities which are utterly impossible on the DS or PSP.

C.
post #116 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Well tell that to the people who are downloading millions of games every day, the thousands of developers who are working on games, the big games publishers who are entering the App store.

This is big money business I think your personal opinions are irrellevant.

Rolando another game has been released, every day I am given more examples to refute your negativity.

Remember this the most played game ever on any platform is probably solitaire on Windows PC's.

Really? What's innovative about Rolando? What will make this game sell through the roof? What about it will make people BUY iPhones and touches (like the best games do for the PSP and the DS)? What about this game promotes depth of gameplay beyond a few minutes?

You and carniphage seem to NOT read anything I post. Nowhere did I say the iPhone can't be a competitor. Nowhere did I say Apple and developers can't make money doing it. I'm just telling you that at this point in time and in the very near future, it's not even close to knocking the DS or PSP from it perch (let alone out of the game), and you can't refute that - for the iPhone to even begin taking over Nintendo's dominance would require the complete and total involvement of Apple to court existing publishers to bring over HUGE franchises over (not just dumping on shovelware *cough* Supermonkeyball *cough* SimCity), while simultaneously enticing more grassroots and indie developers to get on the ball. *ALL* Nintendo portable competitors have failed to this point, and only one has managed to just barely hang on - Sony, with their PSP. None of this opinion - it's hard cold fact. The fact that the iPhone can play games is a nice value add to the iPhone and its great positioning to facilitate casual gameplay gives it a nice bonus, but it's like saying, "Hey, these are nice waves!" at the beach while in the shadow of a gigantic tidal wave just beyond it all. There is another way to market dominance though (I'll talk about that last).

I don't think you can underestimate Nintendo's dominance in all of this; their hold over the portable gaming market (and the normal console market, to a lesser degree), is bigger than the difference between Apple and Microsoft, but unlike MS, Nintendo is actually consistently on the ball with its market.

Oh and by the way? The solitaire reference is an old and tired argument that's always trotted out. It's #1 because Windows is on the most desktops. End of story. The iPhone and touch would be the #1 game's console if everyone had one as well. Could it happen? Sure, look how ubiquitous the iPod is in all its forms at the moment. *THAT'S* how Apple could grab the market - you've already got one, hell, put some games on there. Casual gaming is a GIGANTIC business, and even if Apple doesn't get the huge games on the system, it will, by mere default, have a huge impact. RIght now though? Not even close.
post #117 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

As a games developer, I have to disagree.
The gaming potential of the iPhone platform is huge.

In terms of the market, the number of units out there is already impressive.
Including iPod Touch, we are heading for 20 million units?
The PSP is at 44 million and that took 4 years.

The commercial model for iPhone is really good for developers - and is starting to attract some big players. With Konami announcing Metal Gear Solid this week. PSP development is expensive, and you might have noticed that new titles have dried up.

In terms of software...
The iPhone SDK is remarkable and lets developers get games running really quickly. The PSP and DS are both quirky machines to develop for.

In terms of the hardware...
The CPU is stronger than the PSP or the DS
the GPU is better than the PSP or the DS.
The Screen has a higher resolution than the PSP (and about the same size)

The control method is where it gets interesting.
PSP - Buttons, Joystick and Tilt
DS - Buttons & Stylus
iPHone - Tilt and Multitouch screen.

The lack of buttons is a problem if you want an old style title that is reliant on button mashing.
But multi-touch is a *better* control method for games that require exploration and direct manipulation. I don't think we have scratched the surface yet in terms of how this can be exploited.

Just like the Wii - games have to be designed with this in mind. Simply mapping button mashers to virtual buttons is lame. But multi-touch opens up entirely new interaction possibilities which are utterly impossible on the DS or PSP.

C.

Oh and I already mentioned all this before (the ultimate lack of importance of graphics, the interface issues, the analogy to the Wii) and I basically agree with y ou on all points. So I'm not sure what you're pointing out here.
post #118 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

The control method is where it gets interesting.
PSP - Buttons, Joystick and Tilt
DS - Buttons & Stylus
iPHone - Tilt and Multitouch screen.

The lack of buttons is a problem if you want an old style title that is reliant on button mashing.
But multi-touch is a *better* control method for games that require exploration and direct manipulation. I don't think we have scratched the surface yet in terms of how this can be exploited.

I don't doubt that there are novel ways to take advantage of that kind of input, but this kind of argument doesn't really address all the potential drawbacks. I wonder if tilting is a sustainable model, people don't get dizzy when their screen tilts with the control when tilting is fundemental to the operation of the game? It's fine for slow games, but fast ones? Ouch.

Multitouch - you have to cover much of the screen to use it. Not what I would call ideal. Either something else can happen under your fingers when you're performing an action or you cut away screen real estate to accommodate for that.

Also, the responsiveness doesn't seem to be up to par, there always seems to be a processing lag when dealing with those inputs. Buttons are generally faster.

I don't think it's a huge concern though, iPhone games don't have to target the handheld game system market to be very successful.
post #119 of 122
So what's the DS bundled game for this Christmas period?

What is the "must buy" game for PSP at the moment?

How many people know or care?

Curious iPhone and Touch owners just push the App store button, the "funnest iPod ever" is here.

Anyway I'm sick of dealing with your petty complaints, every time I address one of your supposed "issues" you bring up something else, examples of controls that don't cover the screen you attempt to sidetrack into the storyline of the game or that the controls are not "tactile".

I'll leave you with one more example, the steering wheel on Asphalt 4 (one of the three input methods players can choose to use with this game) does not use up all the screen real estate at all.

We haven't even touched upon the audio quality and soundscapes available with the Apple platform which is quite obvious, especially through stereo headphones.
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post #120 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

So what's the DS bundled game for this Christmas period?

What is the "must buy" game for PSP at the moment?

How many people know or care?

Clearly, you don't get it, which is why you keep arguing tangentially at best. Who cares what the DS is bundled with right now? Most of the time, a bundled game is a bonus, but most of the time it's not what people are getting the system for, just like people don't get Windows for Solitaire. You don't get an iPhone for any of the games in the app store either. What makes the DS and PSP sell is that there are games people WANT with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Curious iPhone and Touch owners just push the App store button, the "funnest iPod ever" is here.

And... what does this mean exactly? What does this have to do with anything I've said, or refute any argument I've made? Good on Apple for finding a convenient delivery method.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Anyway I'm sick of dealing with your petty complaints, every time I address one of your supposed "issues" you bring up something else, examples of controls that don't cover the screen you attempt to sidetrack into the storyline of the game or that the controls are not "tactile".

You haven't addressed one issue. My issues are 1) lack of innovation in any games, aka shovelware 2) the complete dominance of Nintendo and to a lesser extent Sony in terms of access to well heeled developers and properties (which includes gameplay) and 3) identify any kind of concrete way in which Apple COULD push and shove their way into the handheld market - I'VE been the one actually putting ways Apple could do that, not you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

I'll leave you with one more example, the steering wheel on Asphalt 4 (one of the three input methods players can choose to use with this game) does not use up all the screen real estate at all.

Why do you keep throwing up these examples that are just more examples of shovelware? They don't mean anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

We haven't even touched upon the audio quality and soundscapes available with the Apple platform which is quite obvious, especially through stereo headphones.

This is the core of the problem of all your arguments right here; at the end of the day, you can the most killer soundtrack and the most eye burning visuals EVER in a game, but if you don't BRING THE GAMEPLAY, you've got nothing. This applies across the board from simple casual games to "hardcore" crowd pleasing games. Garbage in, garbage out.

When *you* can address any of those points I've iterated many times over and finally stated for you in clear format, we can move forward, otherwise, the fact still stands that the iPhone/touch is a glorified cell-phone gaming environment with the potential to be more.
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