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RIM nears iPhone's sales with 6.7 million BlackBerries

post #1 of 41
Thread Starter 
After a symbolic victory over Research in Motion, Apple may have its fortunes reversed as the BlackBerry maker has almost exactly matched iPhone 3G summer sales during the fall.

The Waterloo, Ontario, Canada company said on Thursday that it had shipped about 6.7 million smartphones between September and November in what's characterized as a "record" quarter.

Even as a "challenging" world economy threatened to undo RIM's success, the firm says it earned about $2.8 billion in revenue, a dramatic 66.3 percent leap over the fall quarter in 2007. Roughly 81 percent of that money is chalked up to phone sales, while the rest is split across services and software.

Much of the increase is credited directly to a trio of phone launches in the period that included the BlackBerry Bold, Pearl Flip and Storm. Despite frequently hostile reactions by reviewers to the Storm, the company's first-ever touchscreen phone, the company said in a statement that its new lineup was being snapped up at an "even faster pace" than anticipated.

In a financial conference call held after the close of the stock market, the company noted that the Storm's launch with Verizon on November 21st represented the single largest day for new subscriber additions in RIM's history and that it has had trouble keeping up with demand for both the American carrier and recent Canadian introductions.

It's Verizon's best-selling device, RIM also said during the call, though the exact sell-through hasn't been given.

The shipment figures mark a surprising inversion for the BlackBerry creator, which suffered the embarrassment of being outperformed by Apple this summer after just over a year of iPhones competing in the same marketplace as RIM's products. Apple shipped 6.9 million handsets in the first quarter of the iPhone 3G's existence but will now have to almost match its launch figures to reclaim its lead -- a feat considered difficult by analysts warning of possible weaker iPhone sales during the holiday season.

Not all was positive for RIM. Although it expects to fare well in its winter quarter, which lasts December through February, the company says that it added a relatively modest 2.6 million new BlackBerry service subscribers in the fall versus the 2.9 million predicted earlier in the year. The shortfall points to more BlackBerry sales heading to existing users than to new converts; during its financial call, RIM attributed much of this to the Bold where the Storm and other devices were split more evenly between newcomers and veteran users.

Both Apple and RIM have less to fear than Palm, however: the Treo-making pioneer sold through just 599,000 of its smartphones over the same three months tracked by RIM, leading to a 13 percent tumble compared to fall 2007 that will add to the market share of its larger American rivals.
post #2 of 41
Both Apple and RIMM's sales figures were padded via channel stuffing, so I don't know if you can trust either 6.9 million number, particularly if RIMM refused to offer sell-through numbers, while we know that Apple's sell-through was about 4.9 million.

However, this is good news for Apple stock, as anything RIMM can do Apple can do better, at least lately the iPhone has to be selling better than RIMM's offerings.
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post #3 of 41
Now what about all the stories of returned and returning Blackberry Storms? They can sell boatloads, but if a third to half come back, they're screwed.
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post #4 of 41
I'd agree this is very good news for Apple. I've been surprised at how successful RIM has been with their new lineup, but ultimately Storm users are going to be open for a different solution in time-- it just isn't that good from the three minutes I spent with it.

Some of the analysts are thinking Apple will beat 7MM iPhones for Q1. I don't buy it, but... it would make things interesting.
post #5 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by ricksbrain View Post

Now what about all the stories of returned and returning Blackberry Storms? They can sell boatloads, but if a third to half come back, they're screwed.

People who tried to discount the iPhone cited returns as well, but they're never actually very high. If it were, the internet would be completely inundated with the story.
post #6 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by ricksbrain View Post

Now what about all the stories of returned and returning Blackberry Storms? They can sell boatloads, but if a third to half come back, they're screwed.

Give me a break with those numbers. Totally nuts.

There were tons of Verizon subscribers who wanted an iPhone but bought this because they couldn't have one. They'll keep them too.
post #7 of 41
RIM puts out good products and their enterprise support is solid. Make next smartphone will be a RIM product as well.

Apple has a ways to go with their enterprise support. Their implementation of ActiveSync is a bandwidth hog on our networks compare with WinMo phones. Two iPhone saturate one ActiveSync server.
post #8 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Both Apple and RIMM's sales figures were padded via channel stuffing, so I don't know if you can trust either 6.9 million number, particularly if RIMM refused to offer sell-through numbers, while we know that Apple's sell-through was about 4.9 million.

However, this is good news for Apple stock, as anything RIMM can do Apple can do better, at least lately the iPhone has to be selling better than RIMM's offerings.

Maybe except in this case. Blackberrys fall sales are the same as apples summer sales. Summer is when iphone was released. So if we know the best apple can do with the sales is near the release date then we know apples fall sales will inevitably be less than RIM's. I woupd think this is common sense but I see that some are confused.
post #9 of 41
Honestly, does it matter? Will more sales of Blackberries make my iPhone any less useful? No. There's no point in all these dumb market share comparisons. Market share doesn't make a product any better or worse. I would be surprised if Apple ever had more share than RIM; a company that sells several models on several different carriers.
Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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post #10 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjtomlin View Post

Honestly, does it matter? Will more sales of Blackberries make my iPhone any less useful? No. There's no point in all these dumb market share comparisons. Market share doesn't make a product any better or worse. I would be surprised if Apple ever had more share than RIM; a company that sells several models on several different carriers.

It matters a lot to stockholders - why even read this thread if you are just a consumer? Its like going into a thread about the next xeon processor and saying "who cares? All processors are about the same for running firefox".
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post #11 of 41
Well this is natural when world is shifting towards smartphones. The only two choices are Apple and RIM. So people buy what fits them better. RIM is totally different market. Its business, while iPhone has its own huge market. Both companies need to grow but very carefully, not to explode.
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post #12 of 41
I was a BB hater log before iphone but the bold mbe me take a real look...I would really consider a bold when iphone 3g contract is up.
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You can't quantify how much I don't care -- Bob Kevoian of the Bob and Tom Show.
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post #13 of 41
It all depends on how you look at it. Even if BBs are for business, and iPhones for entertainment, who will continue to buy them when the economy goes down even further? I've heard from people who were let go that they had to return their Blackberry. On the other hand, though the initial price of an iPhone may be acceptable, the monthly cost for using it could become prohibitive for many. At the end of the day though, I believe that the App store will make Apple the winner.
JR
post #14 of 41
The absolute minimum plan you can get from Rogers on an iPhone here in Canada is $102.45/mo.
That gets you 200 minutes, 500mb data. That's it.
Doesn't include voice plan. Doesn't include texting.

Mandatory 3 year contract. Works out to a $3688 contract... add the price of the phone... your looking at $4000 for a phone that your locked into for 3 years.

I would love to have one, but lol...
I was at a Rogers store last weekend and people inquired about the iPhone, the sales staff told them to forget it, and showed them some Samsung piece of crap. They don't even put them on display anymore.

The iPhone is as good as dead in Canada. \
post #15 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by rain View Post

The absolute minimum plan you can get from Rogers on an iPhone here in Canada is $102.45/mo.
That gets you 200 minutes, 500mb data. That's it.
Doesn't include voice plan. Doesn't include texting.

Mandatory 3 year contract. Works out to a $3688 contract... add the price of the phone... your looking at $4000 for a phone that your locked into for 3 years.

I would love to have one, but lol...
I was at a Rogers store last weekend and people inquired about the iPhone, the sales staff told them to forget it, and showed them some Samsung piece of crap. They don't even put them on display anymore.

The iPhone is as good as dead in Canada. \

What the heck are you talking about, I have the brochures for the iPhone 3g for fido and rogers in front of me and the plans start at sixty dollars, the iPhone is far from dead here, its probably the hottest phone at least here in Toronto where everyone is rocking one.
post #16 of 41
i have an iPhone. i returned countless ones due to poor quality control... I bet Apple didnt include those in the millions of phones sold... so why should blackberry?
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iMac 20" 2.66 2008/9 model
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post #17 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjtomlin View Post

Honestly, does it matter? Will more sales of Blackberries make my iPhone any less useful? No. There's no point in all these dumb market share comparisons. Market share doesn't make a product any better or worse. I would be surprised if Apple ever had more share than RIM; a company that sells several models on several different carriers.

Well said dude I'm sick of all these lame comparisons. If you like iPhone, go for it, if blackberry, go for it. I just don't see the need for these pissing contests.
post #18 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by iVlad View Post

Well this is natural when world is shifting towards smartphones. The only two choices are Apple and RIM. So people buy what fits them better. RIM is totally different market. Its business, while iPhone has its own huge market. Both companies need to grow but very carefully, not to explode.

Apple and Rim share half the market; Nokia has the other half. The bigger curiosity is how fast the market is growing.

Both companies have different business strategies and market focuses, but they start to overlap...
post #19 of 41
Apple had a huge summer because of pent up demand for the 3g - which for some reason people had decided they had to have.

Given that Apple has only been in the business one year, the fact that they put pressure on BB and forced them to come up with a new device is a big deal.

Also note that Apple does not offer a device for Verizon. They would have more sales if they did.
post #20 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

It matters a lot to stockholders - why even read this thread if you are just a consumer? Its like going into a thread about the next xeon processor and saying "who cares? All processors are about the same for running firefox".

Maybe to stock holders who don't know what they're doing? This is precisely why the damn stock market is so volatile; too many inexperienced people trying to use the market as a means of making quick cash rather than actually investing in a company they believe in.

If a company is doing well regardless of how or where the industry is, it really shouldn't matter. People who actually invest in a company look at that companies bottom line and their ability to adapt and move forward, the competition should be an after-though. As Apple has demonstrated time and time again, they are more than willing to make drastic changes to stay ahead.

And besides all of that, this is a rumor site for Apple, not an investor's site. If you base your "investing" decisions off this website, you're a fool.
Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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post #21 of 41
Thee big losers out of this will be WinMo and Symbian.
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Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
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post #22 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by junkie View Post

Apple had a huge summer because of pent up demand for the 3g - which for some reason people had decided they had to have.

Given that Apple has only been in the business one year, the fact that they put pressure on BB and forced them to come up with a new device is a big deal.

Also note that Apple does not offer a device for Verizon. They would have more sales if they did.

Also, let's not forget, the iPhone went global with the introduction of the G3 version and it still continues to move into territories it was not previously available. Also, seems to me that a lot of people don't take into consideration that the iPhone is a platform, and as such iPod touch sales should be included when considering the overall market potential. Especially for third party developers. This is a platform that is only 18 months old, but is fast approaching numbers equal to the Macintosh user base and has surpassed Windows Mobile.
Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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post #23 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjtomlin View Post

If a company is doing well regardless of how or where the industry is

Market share matters to revenue and profits, which is a measure of how well the company is doing.
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post #24 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Market share matters to revenue and profits, which is a measure of how well the company is doing.

That's absolutely not true. Apple had 17% market share for unit sales of notebooks, but yet took over 30% share of dollars. It's all about profit, not share of any particular market. A companies well being has nothing to do with the size of their share of a market. This applies to all markets.

And a company with the smallest market share but a great foundation to build from is usually the best place to invest money. Anyone who knew anything about Apple 7 years ago and were they were headed would've seen a good investment opportunity. By your logic, no one should ever invest in a start-up company with a miniscule share of any market.
Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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post #25 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by italiankid View Post

i have an iPhone. i returned countless ones due to poor quality control... I bet Apple didnt include those in the millions of phones sold... so why should blackberry?

It's because Apple doesn't like you kid, they make sure you get all the lemons. The rest of us get the good stuff. Sorry kid, that's just the ay it is.
post #26 of 41
It's not like Apple is trying to copy RIM...it's just the opposite. Apple sells one product to one carrier, yet it seems to have everyone debating it, copying it, dismissing it. Still, there it goes...the computer company selling 10 million smartphones in a very polished and feature-rich package.

/
post #27 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by italiankid View Post

i have an iPhone. i returned countless ones due to poor quality control... I bet Apple didnt include those in the millions of phones sold... so why should blackberry?

wow... how high can you count kid?
post #28 of 41
Its not very surprising really. Just like no one bought an iPhone from April to May, no one bought a blackberry from June to August because of the new ones coming out. I remember an article here gloating about how Apple had killed RIM in sales during this period.

Personally I'm happy with my phone, and thats all I really care about.
post #29 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adjei View Post

What the heck are you talking about, I have the brochures for the iPhone 3g for fido and rogers in front of me and the plans start at sixty dollars, the iPhone is far from dead here, its probably the hottest phone at least here in Toronto where everyone is rocking one.

Goodluck with that. Go and seriously inquire about one, and what the final cost will be.
The $60 plan gives you zero data. Just the phone part. If you read my post, you will see that I mention the cheapest plan with data.
Go to their website and check it out yourself.

My guess is people are "rocking" an iPod Touch and pretending to talk into it to look cool... it is Toronto after all.

Mats Sundin in Van... wooot.
post #30 of 41
The reason RIM sold that many is because it's available on ALL U.S. networks. The iPhone is only available on AT&T. Now imagine if the iPhone was available on the Verizon network too.
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post #31 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by rain View Post

Goodluck with that. Go and seriously inquire about one, and what the final cost will be.
The $60 plan gives you zero data. Just the phone part. If you read my post, you will see that I mention the cheapest plan with data.
Go to their website and check it out yourself.

My guess is people are "rocking" an iPod Touch and pretending to talk into it to look cool... it is Toronto after all.

Mats Sundin in Van... wooot.

If you order an iPhone online from Fido's website, you can choose between 2 packages - $60 gets you:
- 250 included local weekday daytime (8 AM to 7 PM Monday to Friday) minutes, billed by the second.
- 35¢ for additional local weekday daytime minutes, also billed by the second.
- unlimited local weekend (7 PM Friday to 8 AM Monday) and evening (7 PM to 8 AM Monday to Friday) minutes.
- unlimited domestic texting
- 500 MB of data
- Visual Voicemail
- Unlimited access to all Rogers and Fido WiFi hotspots

If you upgrade to the $75 option, you get the same deal, except:
- Included local daytime weekday minutes doubles to 500.
- Data allotment doubles to 1GB.

Of course, taxes, 911 fees, and other surcharges will apply. (Fido's newest promotional plans do not have an additional system access fee... But the special iPhone plans are not part of that deal.)

If you opted for Rogers instead, their website offers a $60 plan that gets you:
- 250 included local weekday daytime (7 AM to 9 PM) minutes, billed by the minute
- 35¢ for additional local weekday daytime minutes, also billed by the minute
- unlimited local weekend (9 PM Friday to 7 AM Monday) and evening (9 PM to 7 AM Monday to Friday) minutes. (An optional $9 monthly fee would start the evening rate at 5 PM; an optional $7 monthly fee would start the evening rate at 7 PM.)
- 75 outgoing domestic texts (ALL incoming domestic texts are always free on Rogers)
- 15¢ for all additional outgoing domestic texts.
- 1 GB of data
- Visual Voicemail
- Unlimited access to all Rogers and Fido WiFi hotspots

If you upgrade to the $75 option, you get:
- Included local weekday minutes increases to 400.
- Data allotment doubles to 2 GB.

And again, taxes, 911 fees, and system access fees will apply.

In Nova Scotia, Rogers online service will let me opt for one other iPhone approved plan. A combination of a separately available $35 voice plan and $25 data plan, totaling $60, gets you:
- 450 local weekday daytime (7 AM to 9 PM Monday to Friday) minutes
- Unlimited local weekends (9 PM Friday to 7 AM Monday) and evenings (9 PM to 7 AM Monday to Friday)
- 100 domestic long distance anytime minutes
- 500 MB of data

Once more, taxes, 911 fees, and system access fees will apply.
post #32 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by rain View Post

Goodluck with that. Go and seriously inquire about one, and what the final cost will be.
The $60 plan gives you zero data. Just the phone part. If you read my post, you will see that I mention the cheapest plan with data.
Go to their website and check it out yourself.

My guess is people are "rocking" an iPod Touch and pretending to talk into it to look cool... it is Toronto after all.

Mats Sundin in Van... wooot.

I have the brochure with me right, you get 1 gb of data for sixty dollars. Didnt you hear Rogers set a new record when the launched the new phone for most sold, its a very popular phone, I see it everwhere.
post #33 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by rain View Post

The iPhone is as good as dead in Canada. \

they should start to sell iphones at appl store unlocked, not much more expensive than ipods. or even same price but lower specs. then the iphone will have future.
post #34 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by italiankid View Post

i have an iPhone. i returned countless ones due to poor quality control... I bet Apple didnt include those in the millions of phones sold... so why should blackberry?

RIIIIIGHT.....Countless...
post #35 of 41
Going into the holidays I would have to give the edge to Apple and AT&T. People lean much more towards cool-factor and style for holiday gifts.
Even though Blackberry has the advantage of Verizon's dominant customer base, AT&T is quickly closing that gap. And the new Apple/AT&T iPhone holiday promotion that simplifies giving an iPhone+plan as a gift with one gift-card will definitely help them close that gap even more.
post #36 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjtomlin View Post

Market share doesn't make a product any better or worse.

Exactly, A Rolls Royce is no less a supreme luxury car just because there are fewer of them on the road then say a Lincoln, Cadillac, or Lexus. Sure you can get into the "meat" of comparison by saying the RR is hand built with actual polished wood and leather from certain animal products etc, versus what one might consider a luxury car sold in the US. Just saying... \

Ten years ago, we had Steve Jobs, Bob Hope and Johnny Cash.  Today we have no Jobs, no Hope and no Cash.

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Ten years ago, we had Steve Jobs, Bob Hope and Johnny Cash.  Today we have no Jobs, no Hope and no Cash.

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post #37 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Both Apple and RIMM's sales figures were padded via channel stuffing, so I don't know if you can trust either 6.9 million number, particularly if RIMM refused to offer sell-through numbers, while we know that Apple's sell-through was about 4.9 million.

MS is notorious for channel stuffing in order to meet predicted shipment totals. Maintaining normal inventory levels is not channel stuffing. However, there is ALWAYS a one-time buildout of one's inventory levels when adding new points of sale. The 2M in channel inventory is about 5 weeks worth of iPhone inventory. Apple's typical inventory levels are 4 to 6 weeks worth. 5 weeks is normal.
post #38 of 41
iPhone ASP = $665
Blackberry ASP = $335
post #39 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by cameronj View Post

Give me a break with those numbers. Totally nuts.

There were tons of Verizon subscribers who wanted an iPhone but bought this because they couldn't have one. They'll keep them too.

Out of curiosity about this, I went across the street to a store that sells Blackberry Storms and asked them, right after I got my coffee, how many returns they've had on them. I asked an assistant manager and a sales person.

The salesperson said that it was at least half, probably more.

The assistant manager said that it was at least two thirds, and that he should know, because he was doing all the paperwork on it. I was surprised and said "already??" and he said yes already, that whether or not you liked the storm was perfectly obvious within seconds of using it. Most people, he said, hated it.

I believe him too. I had to wait for ten minutes just to ask him that question (he was the only managerial type around on a sunday morning), behind two customers who wanted to scream at him about how horrible their Storm experience has been.

Yes, it's anecdotal, but it's a gram or two of weight behind the point that pretty much everyone hates the storm.
post #40 of 41
I guarantee at least half of those Storm owners wanted an iPhone but were stuck with Verizon.
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