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Gadget blog juices fears over Steve Jobs' health - Page 3

post #81 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adjei View Post

So when is he supposed to show up, is he supposed to give a live a video conference every week showing that he's a live, wasn't he at the notebook event and their earnings report, I guess the guy should be walking the mall so that everybody know he's fine.

No. A major Apple event would suffice to quell the shareholders from bailing and taking the stock down to the teens once more though.
post #82 of 157
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Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

Wow.

Dave (if that's your name), I am seriously shocked.

Yeah it is my real name. So don't be too shocked!
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I had you pegged as a very smart and insightful guy based on your comments on other articles in this forum. You sound like a seriously insane "tin-hat brigade" member here.

Why is that? You can't seriously believe the media was impartial during the last election can you? that includes reporting on the electioneering, the stare of the economy and the state of the political world outside of the USA. If you don't believe there was a concerted effort to force a liberal government upon the American people than you really need to sit down and review what happened last year.
Quote:

"... obviously manipulated ... election of a liberal government?" Seriously?

As to the state of the banking industry and its exposure to mortgage defaults yeah that is in part directly related to government policies. Unfortunately policies put forward by both the Democrats and Republicans that for a number of reasons that we won't cover here had no hope of success.
Quote:

Very disappointing.

I don't think you will feel that way if you step back and look at what is and has happened with the mortgage industry. You should also wonder why there has been zip in the way of legal action taken against the mortgage institutions. Dig deep enough you will find a lot of government manipulation of the industry in the name of social justice and other stupid policies.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

But enough of that, I'd like to get back to why people think that Apple as a stock is a good value right now. It just doesn't add up in my mind. Granted I don't play the market like some of you in these forums, but isn't the whole idea of investing in a stock at a specific price based on the idea that you can reap a reward in the future for your investment that is better than the alternatives?

It is for this reason that I see Apple shares becoming more depressed over time. If you are in the market to make money there are simply better choices than Apple. Especially at a time when it appears that Apple is stumbling a bit. Funny thing is the market might agree with me as Apple is down today when many stocks are up.

Dave
post #83 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazda 3s View Post

LA Times is now running the story based on Gizmodo's piece:



http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/tech...jobs-illn.html

And The Street:



http://www.thestreet.com/story/10455...cm_ven=GOOGLEN

Someone needs to email the SEC about the LA Times article. Off with their heads. The editor's should be fired.

Quote "Gov. Rod Blagojevich" He's as off as most in this room.
post #84 of 157
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Originally Posted by MacOldTimer View Post

Someone needs to email the SEC about the LA Times article. Off with their heads. The editors should be fired.

Quote "Gov. Rod Blagojevich" He's as off as most in this room.

And here's a CNBC piece saying Gizmodo's article is "flimsy" at best:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/28437017
post #85 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by mi_sat View Post

For every seller, there's a buyer. So, yes, "anyone" is still holding Apple stock.

Great point. (Currently, there are 889 million shares being held by that 'anyone'!)
post #86 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

Wow.

Dave (if that's your name), I am seriously shocked.

I had you pegged as a very smart and insightful guy based on your comments on other articles in this forum. You sound like a seriously insane "tin-hat brigade" member here.

"... obviously manipulated ... election of a liberal government?" Seriously?

Very disappointing.

I have to agree.... you can't honestly think that Apple is overvalued.... is it because they come up with totally awesome and useful products time and time again, or is it because they have the lowest R&D budget for their innovations.... I mean really, come on! Ford???? In what respect has Ford brought to the market that was unique and insanely awesome that blew your pants off? Maybe it was their "Ford Five Hundred/Taurus/Oh god what can we rename this car again now" car that sadly sits in showrooms kicking the dust around. If Apple was overvalued then sure enough Ford was too, just look at the stocks....
post #87 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

But enough of that, I'd like to get back to why people think that Apple as a stock is a good value right now. It just doesn't add up in my mind. Granted I don't play the market like some of you in these forums, but isn't the whole idea of investing in a stock at a specific price based on the idea that you can reap a reward in the future for your investment that is better than the alternatives?

It is for this reason that I see Apple shares becoming more depressed over time. If you are in the market to make money there are simply better choices than Apple. Especially at a time when it appears that Apple is stumbling a bit. Funny thing is the market might agree with me as Apple is down today when many stocks are up.

Dave

In what way is Apple stumbling compared to alternatives? Can you be more specific?
post #88 of 157
A rumor site exasperating another rumor from another rumor site.....

Engadget.com RULES...over gizmodo
post #89 of 157
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Originally Posted by OriginalMacRat View Post

He's also a hard core Vegan. Hard to maintain any real body weight when you don't eat real food.

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Originally Posted by steviet02 View Post

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

couldn't agree more with the second comment.

I guess some people love to prove it by opening their mouths.. whats next cancer ALWAYS kills people, said with total conviction by a troll who has never had cancer, nor never come into contact with anyone else who has.

asshating seems to be a popular past time by many idiots.

--

Steve Jobs beat cancer, what more do you want? eternal youth?
I don't see how an anti M$ stance can be seen as a bad thing on an Apple forum I really can't!

nagromme - According to Amazon: "SpongBob Typing Tutor" is outselling Windows
Reply
I don't see how an anti M$ stance can be seen as a bad thing on an Apple forum I really can't!

nagromme - According to Amazon: "SpongBob Typing Tutor" is outselling Windows
Reply
post #90 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post



You are simply amazing, I have to say. Anyone who believes that the incredible economic mess now befalling the world is a fiction

There is a difference than fiction and a manipulation. The issues with the mortgage industries where known for at least a couple of years before the meltdown. Possibly longer than that. It can be argued that Congress pushed back on the acknowledging the problem to gain political advantage in the coming election. lets face it the well time melt down took peoples minds off the war in Iraq which was actually going well enough not to be an election problem.

The flip side is that part of the problem with failed mortgages are also a direct result of political pressure to make loans more affordable and easier to get for people with questionable financial backgrounds. This was a big thing in the last couple of years on both the local and national levels in the guise of social justice and other ignorant concepts.
Quote:
is capable of anything, like voting for a Bush to be their president - oh, you already did that three times eh? Give me a minute and I will try and think up something equally outrageous and unbelievable you might be capable of, but that one is going to be hard to top.

.
Instead take a minute to get involved in the news of the day. You will see evidence of this mindset even today after the mortgage melt down. Has anybody local to you in the political establishment suggested that government needs to do more to make loans affordable and easier to get? I've sen such nonsense as recently as a couple of weeks ago.

It is not outrageous to sit back and look at the evidence. The mortgage melt down didn't just happen because of a few management mistakes, there was a lot of manipulation by people with zip in the way of understanding about economics.

Dave
post #91 of 157
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Originally Posted by merdhead View Post

Yeah, Apple really wants to go through more court cases, investigations and fines, especially after the options scandal. If Jobs is materially sick, Apple will disclose it. Everything else is just bullshit.


here's the catch. Apple is not Steve Jobs. it is not some Borg Collective where Steve does all the thinking, all the designing, the research, the testing etc and everyone else just mindlessly does the grunt work.

IF Steve were to die tomorrow the only thing that would happen is that Apple would lose their spokesperson. After a few days of mourning, the company goes on, perhaps with WWSD as the new mantra for a little while but nonetheless without him.

Because Steve has gathered together people he believes can carry on without him. He has fired them up with a concise vision and path for the foreseeable future and all that jazz. The company won't grind to a halt like a hive without the queen bee.

And Steve has been trying to point this out to folks for a while by bringing others on the stage with him. So this really isn't anything new. Nor is the trade show talk. Apple has been cutting back for a while. The only thing this is going to hurt is the company that runs Macworld, now they will have to come up with something new. but even they should have figured this was bound to happen.

Steve hasn't told every last detail of his life because the man has a right to some privacy. Until the surgery failed and he was given 3 months to live, no one needed to know. Why crash the stock over something that turned out to be nothing. Same for the second surgery, in the end, it's nothing. Move on, nothing to see here folks.

People like Gizmodo need to get other themselves. Lets not forget that this isn't the first time some insider pulled a chicken little and killed the stock value and it was all something from out of his butt.
post #92 of 157
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Originally Posted by Xcoder View Post

As far as macworld goes, I will definitely miss Macworld keynotes!


but on the flip. would you rather have

A. Two big conferences a year and all the releases held until those events where they can make a huge splash

or

B. Several smaller local news conferences held right at Apple's campus and broadcast live for the rest of the world where things are released as they are ready.

I'll take B myself.
post #93 of 157
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Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

I think it's true that if Apple is lying on this that there are serious legal implications, and thus I don't believe the story.

I"m not so sure about legal implications because I"m not certain that Apple is legally required to banish Jobs right to privacy.

but it would have an effect on the company's rep and value and a lot of folks would probably blaze to sell their stock out of disgust.

maybe Apple should just start suing the folks that are posting these 'rumors', claiming slander/libel. they can use the winnings in all their suits over patent violations etc
post #94 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by FuturePastNow View Post

It's a simple fact of statistics that fewer than 5% of people diagnosed with pancreatic cancer are still alive 5 years later.

...apparently. Steve did not have your run-of-the-mill pancreatic cancer. He had one that was surgically treatable. You are applying the WRONG stat to Steve's cancer.
post #95 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by cygnusrk727 View Post

Has Jobs been spotted in public recently?

He had cancer. He had a radical surgery because of the cancer. He looked like crap the last time he was seen in public. And he doesn't like his health to be made public. I don't know if the story has any validity, but his outlook can't be that great.

He HAD cancer. He also had a surgery that totally removed it years ago.

perhaps he is thin because he stopped eating a bunch of crappy fattening food etc. and not because he's going to kick it any day now.
post #96 of 157
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Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

Exactly. Trying to blame the stock price decline of AAPL on a news story about something that EVERYBODY already knows, which is that Steve Jobs has cancer and is not healthy, while ignoring that Apple is a luxury company during a depression, is frankly moronic.

...as Steve "HAD" cancer. And, not "everybody already knows", since you didn't. Who's "moronic"?
post #97 of 157
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Originally Posted by MacJello View Post

The claim is being made that canceling future MacWorlds is a result of Steve's health. That's absurd. Health COULD be a possible reason for Steve dropping out this year,


I will believe these rumors when someone comes up with proof. Show me hospital records that Steve has cancer again, or anything else. If it's true, there's some kind of paper trail. Find it. then I will believe any of it.

Fact is that Steve is not the end all and be all of Apple and all these sites and business writers etc need to figure this out. Judge the company by what they make and do, not by the guy who is the spokesperson.

Also, the name of the game is profit. when a company does things like trade shows it is because the move is cost effective in the game of making more money and thus more profit. A number of companies have dropped doing Macworld and other trade shows because it's too expensive for the benefit to the holy profit margin. why when Adobe etc do it, is it a smart business move but when Apple does, it is a sign of doom and a validator of a bunch of stupid rumors.
post #98 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Gadget blog Gizmodo is causing a stir this afternoon with a new report alleging that Apple has mislead the public about the reasons behind its exit from Macworld Expo, claiming Steve Jobs' deteriorating health is to blame for the matter.

The online publication cites a source which has reportedly been "100% correct" when providing information and photographs of unreleased Apple products in the past. This source is now said to have passed on information charging Apple with misrepresenting the reasons behind its pullout from future Macworlds and the cancelation of Jobs' keynote address at next week's show.

So now blogging has stoop below the standards of the National Enquirer? It must be, indeed, a slow news day. No different than standing in a slow check-out line, nothing else to keep oneself occupied while waiting, the National Enquirer is conveniently within reach.
post #99 of 157
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Originally Posted by Archipellago View Post

becuase he doesn't have to do it..legally..like some people do!


I also think Giz must be happy with their source or they wouldn't print it. Getting this... badly wrong could finish them.

Where in Steve Job's job description does it state he has to give a weekly appearance or broadcast his private health.
post #100 of 157
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Originally Posted by Mazda 3s View Post

Why don't you take your blinders off -- his point still stands. You people are jumping all down Gizmodo's throat for posting this "rumor", but I don't see any backlash against Apple Insider for propagating the "rumor". Where are the letters to the SEC about Apple Insider spreading "rumors".

That being said, I agree with him. Apple Insider posts rumors about Apple and Apple-related topics ALL OF THE DAMN TIME. And they have on more than one occasion posted about Steve Jobs's health be it substantiated or not. So now that Gizmodo does a big story on it, people go ape s**t and start huffing and puffing.

Get over yourselves, IT'S JUST A COMPANY!!! Steve Jobs isn't your friend. Apple isn't your friend. You folks take this stuff way too personally.

Where did I mention gizmodo anywhere?

Where did I mention anything about Steve Jobs or Apple being my friend, some of you are just full of it. Because Im showing my concern for a fellow human being you have the audacity to write what you just wrote. Steve Jobs should not have to give updates to priave health, if you dont like it, too bad.
post #101 of 157
IF Mr. jobs is fine why wouldn't he simply hold a 10 minute news conference with a reporter of his choosing, at a location of his choosing, at a time of his choosing to calm fears of his being ill?!

Convention participation is one issue. Steve's health or well being is another.

This can be really easy and simple. Why hide or be absent?

If anything the manner in which this is all being managed does not bode well for Apple.

The more important the person the more his supporters need to know FROM HIM that his well being is good.

Something is not right. The truth always shows itself.

Patience!
post #102 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archipellago View Post

A CEO of a listed company if he/she believes it materially affects them doing their job.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/26/bu...QnUY3A9yNO0GsQ



The question surrounding any kind of corporate disclosure always is: Is it material? said Larry S. Gondelman, a lawyer with Powers Pyles Sutter & Verville. And there is no bright line test in determining materiality. A spokesman for the Securities and Exchange Commission said that the law defined materiality as information that the reasonable investor needs to know in order to make an informed decision about his investment.



bearing in mind the enormous credit Jobs is given for Apple's recent upsurge, I think it would be disingenious to suggest that his health is immaterial.

So if he has a cold he should hold a press conference stating he hasn't cold, that will you make you happy.
post #103 of 157
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Originally Posted by MacOldTimer View Post

You are correct. I'd do the responsible thing for the company and the stock holders and hold a press conference to put the subject to rest.

Apple nor Steve Jobs has done the responsible thing and are acting irresponsible by not doing so.

So I guess if you had a cold you would be holding a press conference, in fact why dont you make it a weekly update.
post #104 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

I will believe these rumors when someone comes up with proof. Show me hospital records that Steve has cancer again, or anything else. If it's true, there's some kind of paper trail. Find it. then I will believe any of it.

Steve actually showed his blood pressure and the joke about rumors of his death being exaggerated. In october he made a rare appearance at the earnings call and sounded fantastic and excited. Steve doesn't need to make monthly appearances to prove he is alive and not encased in carbonite in a cupertino vault.

Remember when a magazine "accidentally" ran an obituary earlier this year??! People are frothing at the mouth of the idea of steve dying. I don't understand this but I'm assuming we are seeing an inverse of the kind of speculation and froth we saw in 2000 when everyone was making up stories about how successful their dot-com company was. Its an inverse exuberance as the market gets driven downward. It back-fired on people then, and it will this time, too.
post #105 of 157
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Originally Posted by MacTel View Post

No. A major Apple event would suffice to quell the shareholders from bailing and taking the stock down to the teens once more though.

How do you know he won't show up next week genius, they just said he won't be the one givng the keynote.
post #106 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

Exactly. Trying to blame the stock price decline of AAPL on a news story about something that EVERYBODY already knows, which is that Steve Jobs has cancer and is not healthy, while ignoring that Apple is a luxury company during a depression, is frankly moronic.

For a luxury company it sure seems to becoming rapidly like a company that continues to satisfy needs, not luxuries: of many, not an elite few.
post #107 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

I will believe these rumors when someone comes up with proof. Show me hospital records that Steve has cancer again, or anything else. If it's true, there's some kind of paper trail. Find it. then I will believe any of it.

Fact is that Steve is not the end all and be all of Apple and all these sites and business writers etc need to figure this out. Judge the company by what they make and do, not by the guy who is the spokesperson.

Also, the name of the game is profit. when a company does things like trade shows it is because the move is cost effective in the game of making more money and thus more profit. A number of companies have dropped doing Macworld and other trade shows because it's too expensive for the benefit to the holy profit margin. why when Adobe etc do it, is it a smart business move but when Apple does, it is a sign of doom and a validator of a bunch of stupid rumors.

Well said dude you on point.
post #108 of 157
The outrageous views from all sides are frustrating.

1. As fond as I am of the company, Apple has to take the lion's share of the blame for today's events. I would not expect Apple to respond to the Gizmodo rumor, but as I posted at the time (Link), Apple should have done more to head off misinterpretation when they made the MacWorld announcements. A little better effort to communicate on Apple's part could have avoided the initial 6% drop in stock value, as well as all the subsequent fud which has kept the stock down, and encouraged speculation.

2. Apple stock fell nearly $3 within minutes of Gizmodo's rumor. Given that there are something like 890 million shares outstanding, that's well over 2.5 billion dollars of value. Thus, I do hope that the SEC looks into this rumor just as it looked into the false report of Steve Jobs' heart attack in early October. I suspect that they will find a lone teenager here as well, but investigating rumors that cost billions is part of the SEC's job.

To be fair, I don't think it would be unreasonable for the SEC to investigate Steve Jobs' health as well. There are investors who are worried that Apple is not being honest (I'm not among them), and you can bet that some of them have contacted the SEC. With a company as large as Apple it's reasonable that the SEC should be paying attention. The SEC can't babysit every little detail of the marketplace, but it has an important role to play in keeping the market as fair and transparent as possible. It has done a poor job on many fronts over the last decade, and that's part of the reason for the current economic crisis.

3. Gizmodo is no worse or better than most blog sites. But context and tone and other issues are relevant. Gizmodo put this story with a large picture on the front page of their site. The author twice calls attention to the previous reliability of the source. Given the obvious importance of the issue, and the numerous reasons to doubt this rumor (like the fact that Jim Goldman and other mainstream media and analysts have denied that Jobs is ill, and that Apple spokespeople have denied the relevance of Jobs' health to the MacWorld announcements), I think Gizmodo was irresponsible.

4. The drop in stock value turned this rumor into a legitimate news story that merits publication and discussion on Appleinsider, the LA Times, and elsewhere. But moreover, Appleinsider is a different type of site than Gizmodo. The context and tone of Appleinsider generally make it obvious that you should not put too much faith in the rumors. Rumors on Appleinsider do likely contribute to stock trends, but they've never caused a noticeable movement in share value. Maybe that's just luck, or a sign of irrelevance, but it's an important distinction. That's not to say that Appleinsider has a spotless reputation. I've been disappointed with certain articles that have seemed inappropriate for one reason or another, but on the whole I think Appleinsider avoids the type of mistake Gizmodo made. Indeed, AppleInsider's coverage of this rumor which includes a brief history of Jobs' health plus links is quite admirable.

5. The internet is still a wild new territory. The rules for appropriate behavior haven't yet been worked out. This is partially why a rumor like this one merits discussion, and partially why the SEC should be investigating. Everyone on the internet should be conscious of what they're saying and it's effect, and there should be repercussions for egregious offenses. I'm not suggesting that Gizmodo needs to be punished, but I think it would be appropriate if they felt like their reputation has taken a hit from a broader community who disapproves of their behavior.

6. All the speculation about Jobs' health and impending retirement is disgusting. There's no good evidence of either. All signs suggest that he's doing what he loves; Mick Jagger will lead the Stones until he collapses in a heap on the stage, and Jobs will pursue innovative technology until he can't lift his iPhone. And fortunately, in accord with all responsible reports, that's not likely to happen for many years.

7. Apple stock is a phenomenal buy. In contrast to wizard69's pessimism, Apple is firing on all cylinders and it's future looks brighter than ever:

a) Mac sales have been increasing 20-30% per year for the last three years. That's not going to stop. Moreover, Apple is beginning to dominate higher education. As many observers have noted, these young converts will be a fountain of repeat buisness for years to come, and some of them will even bring Apple preferences to the enterprise. It's likely that the current quarter will show a bit of a pause in Mac momentum because of the economy and the fact that so many people are waiting on product refreshes - new Mini, new iMac, and new 17" Macbook Pro. A completely redesigned Mini could be a huge hit.

b) No technology segment is growing faster than smart phones, and Apple has the single most desireable phone on the market. Even if Apple only manages 20% of all smart phones over the next five years, they stand to earn more money off phones than they do off Macs. The iPhone has already generated billions in revenue much of which is not accounted for in aapl's PE. For more details read Andy Zaky's excellent article here on AppleInsider. Link

c) The iPod Touch is creating a whole new market for Apple as a gaming platform/portable computer for a new generation. I could see this coming after my first visit to the app store last summer, but reports all year long have confirmed it. The app store is an astounding success, and once all the kids who received these things for Christmas show them to their friends, we'll realize that the explosion has only begun. The games aren't as complex or readily controllable as those on the DS and the PSP, but for versatility, excitement, affordability and sheer coolness, nothing touches the Touch.

d) Apple has a lead in software and hardware that no one can easily replicate. OS X is an 800 pound gorilla at the center of everything Apple does. Despite the complaints that Apple's current quality does not live up to the mythical perfection of old, Leopard is an extraordinary foundation for growth, and the fact that Apple can work on it to power all their platforms provides a type of economy of scale that no one else can match. In hardware, the iPhone and the Touch are far ahead of the competition, and there's no doubt that Apple intends to keep this lead. We have yet to see the fruits of the PA Semi acquisition.

e) Eventually we will see a tablet or ProTouch or something similar. Apple has the pieces in place, and there's every reason to believe that it could be a huge success.

f) The AppleTV is not dead. It's a product of the future. I've posted on it before, where my main point is that in conjunction with the iPhone/Touch as a remote the AppleTV will eventually come into its own. Link As it is, Apple distributes more paid programming over the iTunes store than any competitor, and discs are a slowly dying technology.

g) What stock would you add to the Dow once you pull a couple carmakers?
post #109 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

He HAD cancer. He also had a surgery that totally removed it years ago.

perhaps he is thin because he stopped eating a bunch of crappy fattening food etc. and not because he's going to kick it any day now.

Having personally had food at company functions with the man, he's a vegetarian whose only real craving is non-vegetarian sushi.

Hell, he even has orange juice with granola. He always admired the Got Milk campaign but never the claim that Milk is really healthy for you when their are better options that don't cause such lovely side effects as lactose intolerance.
post #110 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronstark View Post

IF Mr. jobs is fine why wouldn't he simply hold a 10 minute news conference with a reporter of his choosing, at a location of his choosing, at a time of his choosing to calm fears of his being ill?!

Convention participation is one issue. Steve's health or well being is another.

This can be really easy and simple. Why hide or be absent?

If anything the manner in which this is all being managed does not bode well for Apple.

The more important the person the more his supporters need to know FROM HIM that his well being is good.

Something is not right. The truth always shows itself.

Patience!

They have already said he's fine, what more do you want them to do, to give a weekly update on someone's private health matter, some of you are utterly sick.
post #111 of 157
Every time one of these rumors come up, everyone hides their heads in the sand and says this is not true. I'm sorry to say but ever since i heard Steve was diagnosed with pancreatic caner I knew he lived on borrowed time. We all need to get used to this fact. I have friends who have family members who have died of this cancer and no one survives more than 4 years. The surgery Steve had was the same one that The Last Lecture, author Randy Pausch had. Randy died in June 2008. The surgery bought him some time as well, 2 years.
The thing about pancreatic caner is that there are hardly any symptoms. Thats why its a death sentence, by the time its discovered its too late.
if for some reason Steven's body can heal. Then we will see. I really feel bad for him and his family. Also I know losing him will take a little piece out of me. Like having a friend there everyday who you look forward to what they are going to say or do.

Until that time, enjoy every minute. Life's too short to sit around and argue about things we don't know much about.


for more information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Pausch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancreaticoduodenectomy
post #112 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacJello View Post

Mac sales have been increasing 20-30% per year for the last three years. That's not going to stop. Moreover, Apple is beginning to dominate higher education. As many observers have noted, these young converts will be a fountain of repeat buisness for years to come, and some of them will even bring Apple preferences to the enterprise. It's likely that the current quarter will show a bit of a pause in Mac momentum because of the economy and the fact that so many people are waiting on product refreshes - new Mini, new iMac, and new 17" Macbook Pro. A completely redesigned Mini could be a huge hit.

I know that some of you fanboys do not leave your bedroom very much, but if you take a look outside you might notice that we are in the early stages of what many people now see as being the worst depression since the 1930's and things are going to get a hell of a lot worse before they get any better.

I guarantee you that Mac sales have stopped increasing by 20-30% and would probably wager we will see the first decrease for a while in the next reportings.

There have been recent stories of iPod sales declining, iPhone sales declining and I am sure that Mac sales will be declining. The whole industry will be in decline but some companies will manage it better than others. When there are $400 netbooks flying off the shelves how many people are actually buying overpriced MacBooks?

It is not just an Apple thing, it is a economy thing but some companies can survive a recession better than others. Apple's products in my mind are just far too expensive, they made great Hay during the boom years but then again who didn't?
post #113 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by sternapples53 View Post

I'm sorry to say but ever since i heard Steve was diagnosed with pancreatic caner I knew he lived on borrowed time. We all need to get used to this fact. I have friends who have family members who have died of this cancer and no one survives more than 4 years. The surgery Steve had was the same one that The Last Lecture, author Randy Pausch had.

I'm sorry, though many people seem to share your view, it is incorrect. It has been repeated ad nauseum that Jobs did not have a typical pancreatic cancer like Randy Paush's. Moreover, Jobs has been declared cancer free. Since you like Wikipedia, please view the link below. Read especially the paragraph toward the bottom about health concerns:

Wikipedia Link for Steve Jobs
post #114 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacJello View Post

I'm sorry, though many people seem to share your view, it is incorrect. It has been repeated ad nauseum that Jobs did not have a typical pancreatic cancer like Randy Paush's. Moreover, Jobs has been declared cancer free. Since you like Wikipedia, please view the link below. Read especially the paragraph toward the bottom about health concerns:

Wikipedia Link for Steve Jobs

if it was just some 'tumor' Well then why the whipple procedure. I have feeling we will see for ourselves in 6 months..
post #115 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

He HAD cancer. He also had a surgery that totally removed it years ago.

[sarcasm]A GIANT of Medical Knowledge walks among us![/sarcasm] (aka indenial irrational Mac fanatic crapping 'self at the prospect of the inevitable demise of his personal Jesus/reason for existence.

Sorry to see you so indenial of Jobs increasingly likely last few weeks (naturally hopefully suffering free) on this earth, that makes you twist and make up Medical FACTS at a rate of knots.


He had surgery to remove a cancerous TUMOUR - which was 100% successful.

"Cancer" is the name of a MEDICAL condition (illness etc) - in terms of physical existence it is NONSENSICAL to state it can be "totally removed" by surgery.

The surgery's aim was to improve the outlook of prognosis - not the irradication of the chance of relapse/cancer return ie "there is currently no cure for cancer"

Pancreatic cancer is a HIGHLY aggressive form of cancer with a corresponding prognosis of a few years if initial surgery is successful. In terms of prognoses there are NO FORMS of 'non-aggressive' cancer of the pancreas - this is clearly FUD spread around by VERY medically ignorant Mac fanatics getting increasingly desperate the closer their comming traumatic (as asociated with their fanatiscism) loss.


Now you can check i'm not bullsh!tting/FUD spreading by cross referencing what i've said with some respectable Medical source(s) - as opposed to the opening your mouth and (as usual for a Mac fanatic) arrogantly letting your belly rumble in replace of accurate Medical knowledge (and no doubt, aswell, any other specialized scientific objective information - well you do voluntary choose to use a Mac after all )
post #116 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archipellago View Post

“The question surrounding any kind of corporate disclosure always is: Is it material?” said Larry S. Gondelman, a lawyer with Powers Pyles Sutter & Verville. “And there is no bright line test in determining materiality.” A spokesman for the Securities and Exchange Commission said that the law defined materiality as information that “the reasonable investor needs to know in order to make an informed decision about his investment.

bearing in mind the enormous credit Jobs is given for Apple's recent upsurge, I think it would be disingenious to suggest that his health is immaterial.

Emphasis added.

Outside of short term movements, that reasonable people can take advantage of--if prescient enough--a reasonable investor does not make investment decisions based solely on who's at the helm. For example, a reasonable investor would not have fallen for Madoff's Ponzi scheme after several reputable investment journalists had exposed the absence of any basis in reality for his massive gains. The ones who signed-up after the questions were raised did so because of the name, and that's it. I've got another example, this one from the world of fiction: Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged; I'm reminded of the doomed mining ventures undertaken by playboy Francisco d’Ancona in his plan to show what the world is like when thinkers go on strike. For anyone unfamiliar, d'Ancona was a successful heir to a mining fortune who went on to have personal success, but he gave it up to become a playboy; then he decided to open a new mining venture in an area where no one had any business believing there were any ore deposits; people invested only because of his name--despite knowing that he was a washed-up playboy.

The point I'm getting at is that SJ's health is his own business and he is not required by law to disclose such matters. If investors are buying/holding/selling shares only because of Steve Jobs' potential future with the company, they had best be exceedingly adept at short term trading; otherwise, they are unreasonable.

That said, I own shares of Apple. My average cost per share is ~$65. I sure wish I had sold at ~$200, but I'm not selling now, even with a rather tidy would-be-profit to be made from the current price of $86.29. If I'd sold at $200, I'd be buying on dips such as today's. As it is, I'm just holding, no buying or selling. The reason I bought into Apple in the first place was that I found my PC self being seduced. I tried using Macs and found myself smitten. If I could be turned, I knew Apple was on the cusp of continually increasing revenue.

The stock will go down if something bad happens to Steve; same for a well managed, planned, transition; but it will then go back up--because Apple is an excellent company.

Certainly, the examples I cite in making my point show that an investment's perceived value is influenced by who the HMFIC is; but the crux of the biscuit is that that doesn't make such effects reasonable in and of themselves. Markets move in all directions for all sorts of stupid things. For example, today's general market gains are being attributed to GMAC Financial Services getting $5 billion from the government... http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081230/...re/wall_street That's just laughable. (That's shor good news ar'ight; hyuck, hyuck.)

For some perspective, Apple closed 32¢ down today. That's one powerful rumor--a whole -0.37%! The 52 week low is $79.14.

I think the uncertainty of Job's future is already priced into the stock.

Wizard69/Dave: You're all over the place. You argue for a liberal political conspiracy based on "long-known" mortgage troubles and recent improvements in the war in Iraq, while simultaneously acknowledging A) pressures on politicians to make loans affordable, and B) market manipulations by people who know zip about economics. (See post #92.) That makes no sense.

Barney Frank got his ass chewed by Bill O'Reilly for the long-known mortgage troubles. But the question is: long-known by who? Some people, yes (you can count BB&T CEO John Allison in that select group, but not Bill O'Reilly; he's just a prick who get's off on belittling people). But liberal politicians? Alan Greenspan was just as clueless. Remember his recent testimony? How can the people who were so stupid on the economy be given the credit of planning the mortgage crisis qua crisis? News flash: politicians get elected by giving stuff away & that seldom pays long term dividends. They did what they always do and the predictable results happened. You're claiming they planned the bust to happen right around election time--at the same time some positive gains were being seen in Iraq--just to further liberal policies? That's nuts. On its face it's nuts; factor in that the presidential election was actually fairly close in terms of the popular vote and it's just crazy nuts.

By the way, for those wondering about me after my Rand reference, I'm a cautious admirer. I hold with Milton Friedman who said this of Rand: "I think she was a fascinating woman and had a great influence. As I always have said, she had an extremely good influence on all those who did not become Randians. But if they became Randians, they were hopeless." (Read his interview with Reason magazine here.) I mention this since AR references can be rather polarizing; I really don't want to get into all that--just sharing an example that came to mind.
When will the governments realize it's got to be funky, sexy ladies?
-Flight of the Conchords
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When will the governments realize it's got to be funky, sexy ladies?
-Flight of the Conchords
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post #117 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacJello View Post

I'm sorry, though many people seem to share your view, it is incorrect. It has been repeated ad nauseum that Jobs did not have a typical pancreatic cancer like Randy Paush's. Moreover, Jobs has been declared cancer free. Since you like Wikipedia, please view the link below. Read especially the paragraph toward the bottom about health concerns:

Wikipedia Link for Steve Jobs

It's not the cancer that is Steve's problem. It's the aftermath. Because it was not the typical pancreatic cancer, Jobs waited to have it removed, hoping a special diet would help. Read further about the Whipple procedure. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancreaticoduodenectomy A major surgery with a high complication and mortality rate that let's just say, is not needed for "healthy" people."A second surgery is often needed to fight infection. Jobs had a second surgery for reasons that were not disclosed. I hope he is as healthy as anyone can be with that procedure. I'm not sure you would ever call your self "fit as a fiddle" though after undergoing all that.
post #118 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacJello View Post

The outrageous views from all sides are frustrating.

1. As fond as I am of the company, Apple has to take the lion's share of the blame for today's events. I would not expect Apple to respond to the Gizmodo rumor, but as I posted at the time (Link), Apple should have done more to head off misinterpretation when they made the MacWorld announcements. A little better effort to communicate on Apple's part could have avoided the initial 6% drop in stock value, as well as all the subsequent fud which has kept the stock down, and encouraged speculation.

2. Apple stock fell nearly $3 within minutes of Gizmodo's rumor. Given that there are something like 890 million shares outstanding, that's well over 2.5 billion dollars of value. Thus, I do hope that the SEC looks into this rumor just as it looked into the false report of Steve Jobs' heart attack in early October. I suspect that they will find a lone teenager here as well, but investigating rumors that cost billions is part of the SEC's job.

To be fair, I don't think it would be unreasonable for the SEC to investigate Steve Jobs' health as well. There are investors who are worried that Apple is not being honest (I'm not among them), and you can bet that some of them have contacted the SEC. With a company as large as Apple it's reasonable that the SEC should be paying attention. The SEC can't babysit every little detail of the marketplace, but it has an important role to play in keeping the market as fair and transparent as possible. It has done a poor job on many fronts over the last decade, and that's part of the reason for the current economic crisis.

3. Gizmodo is no worse or better than most blog sites. But context and tone and other issues are relevant. Gizmodo put this story with a large picture on the front page of their site. The author twice calls attention to the previous reliability of the source. Given the obvious importance of the issue, and the numerous reasons to doubt this rumor (like the fact that Jim Goldman and other mainstream media and analysts have denied that Jobs is ill, and that Apple spokespeople have denied the relevance of Jobs' health to the MacWorld announcements), I think Gizmodo was irresponsible.

4. The drop in stock value turned this rumor into a legitimate news story that merits publication and discussion on Appleinsider, the LA Times, and elsewhere. But moreover, Appleinsider is a different type of site than Gizmodo. The context and tone of Appleinsider generally make it obvious that you should not put too much faith in the rumors. Rumors on Appleinsider do likely contribute to stock trends, but they've never caused a noticeable movement in share value. Maybe that's just luck, or a sign of irrelevance, but it's an important distinction. That's not to say that Appleinsider has a spotless reputation. I've been disappointed with certain articles that have seemed inappropriate for one reason or another, but on the whole I think Appleinsider avoids the type of mistake Gizmodo made. Indeed, AppleInsider's coverage of this rumor which includes a brief history of Jobs' health plus links is quite admirable.

5. The internet is still a wild new territory. The rules for appropriate behavior haven't yet been worked out. This is partially why a rumor like this one merits discussion, and partially why the SEC should be investigating. Everyone on the internet should be conscious of what they're saying and it's effect, and there should be repercussions for egregious offenses. I'm not suggesting that Gizmodo needs to be punished, but I think it would be appropriate if they felt like their reputation has taken a hit from a broader community who disapproves of their behavior.

6. All the speculation about Jobs' health and impending retirement is disgusting. There's no good evidence of either. All signs suggest that he's doing what he loves; Mick Jagger will lead the Stones until he collapses in a heap on the stage, and Jobs will pursue innovative technology until he can't lift his iPhone. And fortunately, in accord with all responsible reports, that's not likely to happen for many years.

7. Apple stock is a phenomenal buy. In contrast to wizard69's pessimism, Apple is firing on all cylinders and it's future looks brighter than ever:

a) Mac sales have been increasing 20-30% per year for the last three years. That's not going to stop. Moreover, Apple is beginning to dominate higher education. As many observers have noted, these young converts will be a fountain of repeat buisness for years to come, and some of them will even bring Apple preferences to the enterprise. It's likely that the current quarter will show a bit of a pause in Mac momentum because of the economy and the fact that so many people are waiting on product refreshes - new Mini, new iMac, and new 17" Macbook Pro. A completely redesigned Mini could be a huge hit.

b) No technology segment is growing faster than smart phones, and Apple has the single most desireable phone on the market. Even if Apple only manages 20% of all smart phones over the next five years, they stand to earn more money off phones than they do off Macs. The iPhone has already generated billions in revenue much of which is not accounted for in aapl's PE. For more details read Andy Zaky's excellent article here on AppleInsider. Link

c) The iPod Touch is creating a whole new market for Apple as a gaming platform/portable computer for a new generation. I could see this coming after my first visit to the app store last summer, but reports all year long have confirmed it. The app store is an astounding success, and once all the kids who received these things for Christmas show them to their friends, we'll realize that the explosion has only begun. The games aren't as complex or readily controllable as those on the DS and the PSP, but for versatility, excitement, affordability and sheer coolness, nothing touches the Touch.

d) Apple has a lead in software and hardware that no one can easily replicate. OS X is an 800 pound gorilla at the center of everything Apple does. Despite the complaints that Apple's current quality does not live up to the mythical perfection of old, Leopard is an extraordinary foundation for growth, and the fact that Apple can work on it to power all their platforms provides a type of economy of scale that no one else can match. In hardware, the iPhone and the Touch are far ahead of the competition, and there's no doubt that Apple intends to keep this lead. We have yet to see the fruits of the PA Semi acquisition.

e) Eventually we will see a tablet or ProTouch or something similar. Apple has the pieces in place, and there's every reason to believe that it could be a huge success.

f) The AppleTV is not dead. It's a product of the future. I've posted on it before, where my main point is that in conjunction with the iPhone/Touch as a remote the AppleTV will eventually come into its own. Link As it is, Apple distributes more paid programming over the iTunes store than any competitor, and discs are a slowly dying technology.

g) What stock would you add to the Dow once you pull a couple carmakers?

Your quote on number 5 is completely without merit.
Rumor sites and blogs are what the youth read their news with. To be honest I didn't bother to read the rest of your VERY long reply.

But I clearly can't understand #1. Steve Jobs and Apple owe the stock holders a press release (video) with Steve giving it.

The subject in the room is not ProTouch or AppleTV it is the "RUMOR" that Steve Jobs is incapable of running the business any longer.

Steve Jobs (in person on video) or Apple NEEDS to make a Press Release for the sake of the shareholders.

It seems that only Apple has made money and the share holders have lost 57% in the last year.
Yes, I'm talking about the cash reserve from all the people in the room that don't mind paying an APPLE TAX along with all the other taxes you'll be payintg in 2009.


Steve Jobs, you're rich and so is APPLE. DO WHAT IS SO UNLIKE YOU AND DO THE RESPONSIBLE THING FOR THE SHAREHOLDERS.

I've done considerable research and can't find one Charity that Steve has given to. Yes he gave Apple employee's 12 Million dollars worth of iPhones but his take will be considerably more than that and it was Apple not Steve Jobs that gave the "GIFT".

Steve Jobs doesn't need to name the charities he gives to but you'd think the press would have at least 1 that didn't benefit himself.
post #119 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murphster View Post

...if you take a look outside you might notice that we are in the early stages of what many people now see as being the worst depression since the 1930's and things are going to get a hell of a lot worse before they get any better. ...

There have been recent stories of iPod sales declining, iPhone sales declining and I am sure that Mac sales will be declining. ...

It is not just an Apple thing, it is a economy thing but some companies can survive a recession better than others. Apple's products in my mind are just far too expensive, they made great Hay during the boom years but then again who didn't?

I granted that Apple is likely to see a pause in Mac momentum, but I don't think it will be as severe as you suggest. Let's talk about the current quarter: One thing in Apple's favor is that last year there were no new MacBooks, but this year there are. Reports have put sales of the MacBook up 28% in Oct. (Link) and 22% in November (Link).

I take it that your worry about Mac sales is that NPD said that overall Mac sales were flat for November. They said this because even though Macbooks were up, desktops were down. But in actuality, flat is not bad news since there were 5 fewer shopping days after Thanksgiving in Nov. than last year. If Apple pulled off flat sales overall for November, then they'll likely be up at least slightly for December, and since they were almost certainly up for October, things don't look too shabby. And note, unlike Dell and HP, Apple has done this without lowering prices. Thus Mac revenue should be quite respectable. Moreover, once the new Minis and iMacs are announced, there will be a new sales engine for the March quarter.

IPod sales may be challenging, but the news isn't all bad. It's almost certain that Nanos and Shuffles will be down, but the Touch will be up significantly. The Touch held the top two spots on Amazon for mp3 players for weeks. So, even if total iPod units are down, I'm guessing iPod revenue will increase. Nor should we forget the app store. Revenue from the app store this quarter could be significant, and it's all gravy.

The iPhone sales number is anybody's guess. There are too many variables for informed speculation. But, don't forget that Apple only records 1/8 of the revenue per quarter over a two year period, so sales aren't going to have a significant impact on the bottom line, and the bottom line will benefit from the sales in previous quarters. Of course, any decline in sales will be bad for investor psychology, but really, there's no reliable evidence about what the numbers will be - they could be fine.

The real issue is this depression you mention. The media would have you think we are all doomed. I don't buy it. Sure, there will be more bad news, but we're not headed for years of stagnation. Indeed, I think most of us have seen the worst of things. There is too much money out there, and society is too wealthy and humanity too greedy, for commerce as we know it to evaporate. We are experiencing a hiccup in a long term trend of increased production and consumption. I'm not saying that's a good thing, and some day it will come crashing down disastrously, but the cause will be more profound- something like war or disease or climate catastrophe. Moreover, since the 30's, time has sped up. Buisness cycles that may have taken a decade to work themselves out back then, speed by in a flash today. I predict that Apple will not only survive, but thrive.
post #120 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacJello View Post

The real issue is this depression you mention. The media would have you think we are all doomed. I don't buy it. Sure, there will be more bad news, but we're not headed for years of stagnation. Indeed, I think most of us have seen the worst of things.

Dude, I admire your optimism but think it is entirely unfounded. We have only seen that start of this puppy, things will get much worse before they get better.

In the US they are just about to report the worst Christmas shopping figures for 40 years!!
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