Apple's next-gen Mac mini to get dual display support - Page 4

I could be wrong, but I thought I read that the combination of a mDP-to-DVI adaptor and then a DVI-to-HDMI adaptor didn't allow the HDCP to pass through, blocking any content that required the DRM handshake. Maybe I'm just confusing the reports I've read elsewhere.

Can anyone confirm if such a combination of adaptors to connect one of the new laptops to an HDTV and play an iTunes video with DRM actually works?

Maybe this adapter is odd, but HDCP should work over DVI just fine, provided the monitor supports it. I can't say anything about the Macs, but it works fine on PS3 to a computer monitor that supports HDCP over HDMI.

I just had this thought that might upset the FireWire crowd, the question is what is the power budget for a FireWire port? I seem to remember it being 40 watts, if so just dropping Firewire would put Minis power budget into the current laptop adapter range.

So no eggs from the FireWire crowd, this thought just suddenly popped into my head. I just don't see that new cinema display being a laptop only screen. Still it odd that it is Friday before the big show and there are no good rumors - strange.


Dave

Well, the guy in the first Apple/HDCP story (the only story I've read) was connected to a VGA projector. So of course that wasn't a protected path.

Though more convenient in a way it isn't really essential anymore now that the hard drives are so easy to remove. Just pick you up a cable that connects SATA to USB 2.0, they range between $15 & $30. I'm sure there is even a version out there that will power your drive off USB power (or you could pull apart an enclosure that does this).

Actually, none of the MagSafe adapters are 65W. The MB MagSafe adapter is 60W. The MBP MagSafe adapter is 85W. (The MBA MagSafe adapter is 45W.)

I don't know what the current Mac Mini power requirement is; maybe you're wrong about that too. In any case, the existence of lower-power MagSafes does not preclude the existence of potentially forthcoming higher-power MagSafes.

Maybe firewire isn't in danger (from a power perspective).

I am predicting that it will have two video outputs. Mini Display Port and HDMI. I really hope it has HDMI anyway. I would like to carry both sound and picture through my Amp on HDMI rather than mess around with separate picture and sound outputs, it makes things too complicated otherwise.

As has been pointed out there is no point whatsoever in having Mini DisplayPort and DVI, so if there are to be two connectors (and it seems likely) then it must be either 2x DisplayPorts or a HDMI, surely?

Oh and of course there will not be a magsafe in the new Mini. The concept of that makes no sense whatsoever.

A dumb question perhaps:
Is there any chance that the new mini could have eSATA?

It's fast and has room to grow beyond firewire, but it requires an external power source. So, the new mini could use the conventional power supply, ditch firewire, encourage users to buy the new monitor, then use the monitor's MagSafe power connection for eSATA peripherals...

Whatever.

There may be no need for MagSafe on the mini (other than cleanliness), but I don't see how it's a bad idea. The computer will need a power supply; the computer may as well come with a MagSafe adapter as opposed to a regular AC power brick. What's the difference? It's not as if the conventional connector is held in place all that securely as it is; add some kind of clip for insurance if deemed necessary.

With notebooks being Apple cash-cows (and the suspected high-volume of mini sales, present and future) there may be an economy of scale for shipping the mini with a MagSafe power supply.

Further, a mini that comes with a MagSafe adapter provides an incentive for the user with the new mini DisplayPort monitor to cash-in by selling the adapter that came with his/her computer. That would help the consumer offset the high margin on the Apple display.

On the contrary it makes a tremendous amont of sense.

The current mini external power supply is big, clunky and has a terrible connector that unplugs if you breathe on it wrong. Magsafe would be a far more secure connection that what is there now.

Apple doesn't have to manufacture and QC a separate power supply, they can just use the 85W MBP MagSafe already on store shelves.

More importantly, it allows the mini to be powered by one of the new LED cinema displays, just like the laptops. One power cable for the whole setup, less clutter. And if the mini didn't use MagSafe, then the MagSafe cable from the LED display would just dangle with nothing to connect to. Not the kind of the thing Steve is likely to approve.

Assuming the new mini will be even smaller, it will make a very easily transportable computer. Keep an extra MagSafe adapter in your bag or at the office and easily shuttle the mini to multiple locations. Try that with the beast of a power supply it has now. The current ones aren't even for sale separately. You couldn't get a second one if you wanted.

Besides, if the mini keeps a

A magsafe power supply is designed to be easily removed from a laptop in case someone trips over the cable. It also unplugs itself very easily when using a macbook and the cable is snagged somewhere (usually on my couch) or the power cable is pulled to it's limit. It is great at what it does.

But for a desktop computer/media server it would be madness to include such a feature. If I have to move my Mini to get to a cable or something behind it I certainly do not want the risk that the cable is snagged somewhere and thus suddenly lose all power to the Mini. Whatever you think of the power supply on the current Mini is certainly takes more force to remove than a Magsafe.

Anyone who thinks that the new Mini might have a magsafe really is not thinking things through properly. It would be a stupid feature for Apple to include.

That's called an argument from intimidation and isn't really an argument. It's a logical fallacy.

I don't see Apple doing anything with eSATA (if they ever do) until power over eSATA is perfected & implemented. With Firewire 3200 & USB 3 also on their way it just seems unlikely that Apple will adopt anything until the dust settles & a winner is selected. Look how long they've dragged their feet about Blu-ray.

If that is what you think then suit yourself. We will no doubt see next week if I am guilty of logical fallacy.

Or thinking it through more thoroughly than you. I totally agree that at first glance it seems crazy, but then look at 2 things:

1. the connector on the Cinema display is the one that comes out sideways so it can attach to the MB Air. It's design is far less likely to be bumped against something causing it to come out.

2. Apple could easily include some sort of small clipping device that could latch over the connecter, thus securing it in place.

Though I'm not going to give Apple the benefit of the doubt on this one it is surely possible to develop a secure way to use a magsafe connector.

I think the new mini might use a MagSafe. It may not. In any case, there's no problem with me thinking clearly. You, however, are still guilty of a logical fallacy--regardless of the outcome next week.

Have a nice day.

Okay, so I say that Apple will not put a magsafe on a desktop because it is a laptop technology that has not benefit whatsoever to a desktop and you call this a logical fallacy.

If Apple do release the new Mini with a magsafe then I am wrong, you are right and I am indeed guilty of a logical fallacy.

But if Apple do not put a magsafe on the new Mini then I am still wrong, you are still right and I am still guilty of an illogical fallacy?

mmmm...

Don't you think that when the Mini is released without the magsafe it means that engineers considered it and decided there was no logic in the idea?

IF Apple allows the next iteration of the Mac Mini have a power pass-through from the new ADC, THEN the new Mac Mini WILL connect using a MagSafe either directly or with an adapter.

There is a high probability that Apple would have thought about Murphster's complain within the 5 seconds of deciding to remove the additional power brick by including a way for the MagSafe to not pop out. Murphster doesn't seem to think that it's possible to prevent the MagSafe from unplugging if tugged. For even the most rudimentary solution, the word 'tape' comes to mind.

Apple isn't going to make brand new ADCs that are the exact same in every way, save for the power pass-through connector. That is excessively confusing and costly to the consumer.

I think that IF the new Mini can effectively use the power from the new ADC then it will have that option. That external powerbrick has always been a mark against the Mini's otherwise petite size. By using this option Apple gets a leg up on its competitors with total size and cables to power, and potentially gets an ADC sale out of a Mac Mini sale.

I get where you are coming from but then that would surely defeat the purpose if they had to develop a new magsafe connector? I do not see the problem that needs solving with a magsafe connector, in fact I can only see problems that will be caused by using a magsafe connector.

You keep forcing on the connector itself, not the benefit of being able to remove a powerbrick, a cable and used wall outlet. Since the most common Mac sale is a notebook it only makes since that they use their notebook power connector on the new ADC? Do you think it's logical to make new ADCs that have a different power connector just for the Mac Mini?

What's less expensive? Supplying an industry standard power cord or augmenting the Monitors to support that clippy you're talking about, just to have the magsafe cable that serves no purpose for a desktop/mini system?

You are making a rather large assumption that purchasers of Mac Mini's are going to be buying a new ACD. I think that only a very small proportion will. If you want a Mac Mini and a new ACD you would be better off buying an iMac, no?

The vast majority of people will use existing displays, buy cheaper HP displays or have their Mini plugged into their TV.

Why would Apple bother with Magsafe for a very small minority of customers? Shared power is not going to be enough to convince anybody to buy an ACD.

Apple has never asked "what's let's expensive", Apple asks "what's more profitable". Adding power pass-thorough from the ADC serves Apple's needs better. If they can handle the draw then I see no reason why anyone would assume that Apple wouldn't do it. The argument that "because the MagSafe was designed for notebooks means that the benefit of power pass-through can't be used with the Mac mini unless Apple builds an entire new line of ACD that is identical in every way except for the power plug" is shortsided.

Though you did say something earlier about a converter which may make some sense.

How about a cable that is magsafe on the ACD side and standard power on the Mini side?

I have to agree. eSATA is really only good for one thing, hooking up a striped RAID array. Ok, I'm being a bit facetious; but seriously, what else do you need the speed for? Any single hard disk drive isn't going to benefit much from the speed difference between FW800 and eSATA. eSATA is going to be faster for cache-related operations, but will otherwise be limited by the drive itself, not the connection to the computer. Add in that it's unpowered, only good for connecting storage devices (not sure if that's still the case), and only being able to connect a single device at at time, to me the negatives far outweigh the positives.

No, I'm not. I'm making the rather logical assumption that Apple will market their products to be used in conjunction.


1) How many of the new ACDs will need to be sold for the new Mac Mini to make adding the Magsafe profitable? One?

2) Why can you not see this as an included or additional purchase adapter?


No, you wouldn't. The Mini has advantages that the iMac doesn't have. Non-linear upgradability and a much better display are two that come to mind.


And? The vast majority of people use Windows, but we are discussing Apple's Macs running OS X.


Again, you are focusing on the connector itself, not the benefit of the having power pass-through. BTW, the MagsaSfe would only be the female end on the Mac Mini or its adapter. This is not a huge cost.

And you are focussing on the supposed benefit of having power passthrough and not the disadvantage of having a magnetic power connector that is liable to become disconnected during potential data losing incidents.

I just do not see power passthrough for the minority of people who will actually own a Mac Mini and an ACD as a benefit that outweighs the drawbacks of such a connection to everyone else.

I have already commented on the potential for an adapter and do not see why that would not work, but it would be more likely to be a cable with magsafe on the ACD side but a standard power connector on the Mini side.

I'm not following why you think a MagSafe connected to an adapter won't come apart, but connected directly to the Mac Mini will come apart. Both ACD MagSafes could be firmly secured to their respective devices without issue.

I worry that if they did that they'd end up charging too much for it.


No - it only prevents playing of HD content, and only HD content that is copy protected.


A Display Port from the new Mini could output sound and video with copy protection through a converter to a TV HDMI port. That would work well for a mini as a media centre.

Generally speaking, the Display port is meant to bring computer displays and TV displays closer together.



I'd really like Apple to rethink its TV and low-end computing experience - starting with the AppleTV (& hacked AppleTV), & MacMini (& mini-media-centres). Upgrade both with a new device which comes in a low and high end version.

For the low end (AppleTV replacement):
* The AppleTV would run much cooler (and be smaller) if it used a magsafe power adapter and removed the analog video and audio output entirely
* Snow Leopard will be optimised for both low end processors and powerful GPUs, so it could easily be far more capable
* If they either allow OSX itself, or apps to expand functionality, the AppleTV could work with Elgato & other online entertainment services.
* Apple has recently noticed how effective adding applications (and GAMES) to the iPhone has been.
* could also be used as a very low-end Mac

For the 'high end' (MacMini replacement)
* a graphics card will be a good power boost for this machine
* the display port and MagSafe fit better with Apple's computer direction
* 'high end' might also keep firewire.
* it'll integrate well into TV setups - with a Mini Display Port & DVD drive is also good.

I don't. But at least people can have the choice, if they really are short of a power outlet then they can take the riskier option of getting power from the magsafe on the ACD. For everyone else it is business as usual.

Remember what Mac Mini's are being used for? Not just for desktop computers. These things will be hitting Casinos, Cruise Ships, Hotels, even cars. There are thousands and thousands of them in Data centers and being used as servers. Let alone how many are currently residing under peoples TV's.

You might even find that people who use Mac Mini's on a desk are in the minority of users, and of them only a small fraction will have an ACD.

This is what I do not understand why people think power pass though from an Apple branded display would be a driving factor in determining the style and security of the power input.

Well I never knew that (the sound that is). That is quite excellent news. Cheers.

Right, all we need now is a big bag of hurt.

Third party DisplayPort monitors could also have extra connectors built in to allow daisy chaining. But if Apple did not implement daisy chaining capability on their own monitor, how do we know if their Mac computer hardware supports daisy chained monitors at all? After all, everybody who buys a Mac "must" also want to buy an Apple monitor. So if Apple's own monitor does not support daisy chaining, why would Apple bother to support daisy chaining on the Mac at all?

This sort of dialogue is exactly the form that any successful Turing test must take. It's not enough that the computer can participate in a conversation; to be taken for human, it must be programmed with brilliant roiling techniques. It must dupe its subject into attempts at explanation of the errors the computer has made. In other words, it must be skilled enough to succeed in debate with these techniques.

The computer will win either by succeeding with a fallacy outright, or it will win by oh so carefully veiled coaxes--entreating correction by the real human--call it the rope-a-dope strategy.

Nice try. Chalk another one up for the humans!

There are ways of rigging a connection so that it's harder to disconnect, if that's an issue.

As an example - try to pull the magsafe cable straight out of the socket (instead of yanking left/right/up/down). It's much harder - so a simple guide for the cord preventing left/right/up/down movement would make a big difference.

To go to an extreme, they could even have a connector in an indentation under the MacMini, and snake the power wire through a short S-bend before coming out the side of the case - kind of like many phones have (well, Australian phones anyway).

ps. I don't think it's an issue for server farms - it's really not a situation where there is strain on the wiring or it's easily knocked.

As the Mini is using a 110W powersupply Apple could even use the new 65W quadcore cpus . I allways thought it is not possible becouse of the heat, but if the Mini can now cope the 110W why should it not cool a 65W cpu (I know there are more components that produce heat).
As the Mini was allways sharing it's components with the MB, why needed the Mini a powersupply allmost double the Watts as the MB although the Mini never had to drive a display?

I believe the reason for the different power supply rating is because the mini doesn't have a battery. The mini has to draw all peak power needs straight from the power supply while a MacBook can call on the battery for power spikes.

I agree that yes it "COULD" make the power connector easier to come off, but the current power connector on a MacMini isn't really that much better. Plus, if the power cable is tangled in wires and its pulled its gonna come out regardless. My dad just did this very same thing on his Aluminum iMac and I had to come over and figure out why it wouldn't turn on.

Apple could very easily design something to make it harder to come off. As long as they keep the hard drive and RAM away from magnet, they could even strengthen the magnet on the Mini side to make it that much harder to come off. Apple is by no means a stupid company when it comes to these things. They WILL design something to make it so it doesn't come off as easily as their notebooks if they use the magsafe.

Nobody knows the true number of people who buy a MacMini with an Apple display. It could be more than you think it is, or it could be far less. Nobody knows for sure. But bottom line, Apple markets this as a low end consumer Mac, not an enterprise data server. Those people just buy them because they're small. Adding a magsafe isn't going to stop them from continuing to buy these. Like I said, Apple isn't stupid and would find a way to make the power connector stay on.

Some other advantages of a MacMini over an iMac:

1. You get to keep the display in the...and a much better display

2. You have more options because you get to keep the display, such as hooking it up to a MacBook/MBP, possibly using it on a revised MacPro in the future, etc Can't do that with an iMac's display.

3. Space saver galore. Yes, even an iMac is too big for some places, especially since Apple has dropped the 17" model.

4. If you want to upgrade your MacMini, you don't have to buy another display thus, upgrading only costs $599-$799 and not $1299-$1799 every time. That right there should sell itself....

You just have more flexibility over an iMac. If they can do these few things and sell it at the same price, this would be a killer deal. Hell, I'd even consider selling my 24" Alu iMac and getting on with an LED Cinema Display.

Since we have actual info yet I've done some deductive crunching. According to MacTracker the new 24" LED-CD has a maximum draw of 212W (while charging a machine). For comparison, the older 20" ACD has a maximum draw of 65W, the 23" ACD has a maximum draw of 90W, and the 30" ACD has a maximum draw of 150W.

With everything else were equal, the difference between the 23" and 24" displays is 122W, which is enough to power the current Mac Mini. However, since LCD-BLUs are more power efficient I'd suspect that the maximum power difference is even greater, which leads to an even great chance that a new Mac Mini could be powered by the new LED-CD.

Mini displayport can carry audio as well as video, so it makes it more useful as a media PC. Just one cable exiting the computer to the home theater.

Just a note after doing some research - Monoprice.com is planning on releasing a MDP to HDMI adaptor by end of month (Jan 2009). Great place for all types of cables too.