Apple's next-gen Mac mini to get dual display support - Page 2

We've found that not to be true after the loss of FW on new MacBooks and Jobs reply to an angry Mac user. While this is true for DV cams, they show to be fading away in favour of tapeless recorders.

Can you please provide a link or reference that states that the DRM affected DVDs?

The only info I read was that some iTunes content was affected, but I never saw anything about DVD's getting blocked. And Apple released a patch to end the blocking of the iTunes content.

It's possible that Apple could enable it for DVDs, but considering that it's relatively easy to get around DVDs restrictions, hopefully the studios won't ask for this. However, if you ever want to see HD movies in iTunes on your computer (vs on the AppleTV), I expect that enabling the DRM is the ONLY way that will happen.

So far Apple has done a good job of balancing the need for DRM (either because it was required by the content owners or because it was necessary for their business model) with not interfering with how most people would use the content. Let's hope they continue to be successful at doing that.

I still think that was a red herring. It totally ignores the 100s of thousands of camcordes and other devices already in existence that require Firewire. I think the real reason was a need to differentiate the MB from the MBP. If you look at the performance specs, for tasks that don't take advantage of the MBP's extra video card, it's very similar. There wasn't enough difference to justify the historic price point differences between the two machines. It's easy to upsell someone who needs Firewire to the MBP.

However, upselling someone from a mini to a MacPro is quite a different challenge. I guess they could try to upsell to an iMac, but that's different, too. Either you need a monitor or not. So unless Apple comes out with a mid-range, headless Mac that you could upsell a mini user who needs Firewire, removing FW from the mini is a much bigger deal than removing it from the MB. Hopefully Apple realizes that.

That said, I'll be very disappointed, but not entirely surprised, if FW is dropped from the mini. If they keep it, I'll be buying one. If they don't, I won't. Other than DisplayPort, all other specs are nearly irrelevant to me.

There were problems initially with downloaded itunes movies, but that has since been adressed. I haven't heard anything about dvds being affected, so I don't believe there ever was a problem there.

As far as I know, there is no difference between what the old macbooks and new macbooks can play, except that there is the possibility of being able to play high def content on the new machines at some future date. The old macbooks will never be able to play HD content encrypted with HDCP, which basically amounts to all the HD content you can buy.

It appears to be difficult to discern what situations / equipment combinations and content specifics do not work. From the Apple support discussions.
http://discussions.apple.com/thread....sageID=8472731
And MacWorld
http://www.macworld.com/article/1371...8/11/hdcp.html

It also appears that the Apple "patch" reduces the output quality to standard definition, so at least content would play, albeit it reduced quality.
http://www.macnn.com/articles/08/11/....drm.conflict/
"The company this week released an update to QuickTime that allows HDCP-flagged standard-definition videos to play without the authentication. The protection was originally intended to prevent illegal copying of HD material, downgrading the output to SD quality if the connected device is not HDCP-compatible. "

http://www.obsessable.com/news/2008/...macbook-users/
"While users of older hardware continue to get a free pass, Apple's now activated the protection on the Mini DisplayPort-enabled models. This affects users who use DisplayPort-to-DVI adaptors to connect to external monitors, rather than watch their movies on a tiny laptop screen. Users who wish to continue using external displays are forced to buy new monitors with DisplayPort connectors. "

It is unclear from these discussions whether Blue-ray HD DVDs are encumbered with the same restrictions, but it was alluded to in the Apple discussion forum content.

I think it was a red herring, too, but my feeling is that FW400 was low man on the port totem. Id est, space constraints with the new uni-body design. The video connector is considerably smaller and they removed FW400, while not adding any additional ports, and yet had to push the ports slightly closer together.

If my theory is correct, then I see no reason why FW will go away on the Mac Mini. They may up it to FW800 and then require you to buy an adapter to connector FW400 accessories. If my theory is incorrect, then FW400 will go away and they won't replace it with anything other than an additional USB2.0 port.

Magsafe makes zero sense for the desktops.

The Magsafe on the ADC doubles to charge your laptop battery and uses the passthrough power of the Monitor to do so.

It makes no sense for non-portable products.

If you're going to rationalize adding a "modified" magsafe for the desktop you are adding costs to the design and serving to use it w/o benefiting the point of it's core service--to recharge the system.

Only portable devices with magsafe from at least 1 dedicated power system makes sense, ala the Monitor.

With desktops having dedicated sources it makes no sense to offer it. It's much less expensive to add that functionality into the adaptor than to modify the current one resulting in no added use.

FW400 is dead to Apple. If Firewire as a whole were dead to them, they wouldn't have left FW800 on the MacBook Pro. So unless Apple feels like putting FW800 on their budget, consumer mini-tower, it will use USB2 exclusively. They'll gladly up sell people to iMacs (or MacBooks). The Mac mini is targeted towards switchers who want a taste, but once they see the iMac, they often give up their big, old, clunky CRT or puny LCD for an all in one experience.. The Mac mini also just makes Apple's entire line of premium computers seem more affordable because it starts at $600 and goes up from there, rather than Apple's cheapest computer - without the Mac mini, it would be the MacBook - starting at $1000.

MagSafe doesn't make sense, but a power pass-through for a small desktop with an external PS does, so having the new Minis have an adapter for MagSafe to use the power pass-through on the new ADC does make sense.

Right. It's not so much they are wanting it to support 2 displays, they want it to be compatible with existing displays and Apple's new displays. So, it will have both. We're due for a new 30" ACD LED BLU, a Mac Pro refresh, and a 17" MBP 4 core unibody. We're due, but that doesn't mean they'll all be at MacWorldExpo. I think the new iMacs will look like the MacBooks - glass all the way to the edge with a black bezel, but no aluminum there.

@solipsism
Yeah but then the adapter that came with the mini goes unused \

Thanks for the links. These was nothing in them that suggested DVDs were affected. The one user who complained the Terminator 2 was displaying only in SD on a Mac Pro, that is to be expected. If he's playing it in iTunes there is no such thing as HD movies (only HD TV shows), no matter if you have Display Port or not. HD movies are only available on the AppleTV as rentals.

The 3rd link is interesting. That suggests that if you are not using a DRM enabled display, iTunes will play the SD version of a TV show (you get both an SD and HD version when you purchase an HD TV show).

I think it's pretty much a given that IF Blu-ray ever comes to Mac, it most certainly will be encumbered with DRM. Also, when HD movies come to iTunes on your computer it will mostly likely be similarly encumbered.

Bottom line, Apple needs to be clear about the direction it is heading with all of this. An error with the rollout of the new laptops revealed that the hardware is capable of DRM, but that Apple wasn't ready to implement it yet. They need to be open about what the hardware does and what it requires to continue using your purchased content. Otherwise the recent laptop furor will look like small potatoes compared to the backlash that will ensue when they officially roll out the DRM scheme.

The rumoured new mini sounds good. Since my wife dropped her Pismo, we've been considering how to replace it. The lack of firewire on the new Macbook rules it out. If it had firewire I'd consider giving her my G4 PowerBook. (I realize we could go with the white low-end model, but don't find it particularly attractive).

A new Mini sounds good if it has DVI out (I'm not buying a new monitor) and firewire (I have too many firewire devices to want to swallow the cost of changing to USB). It should also have a maximum of 4 GB of RAM that is user accessible. Graphics I'm not very concerned about, although faster is always better!

Yours does. There were earlier models that had ADC and DVI but the connectors were deliberately too close to each other so only one cable at a time could fit because the card was not dual-channel. The second port was only there for connectivity.

Why would you need to buy a new monitor, even if the Mac mini drops its dedicated DVI out for Mini DisplayPort? Or was that not what you were alluding to?

Did you choose your screen name after eating 56 asparagus spears?

It makes perfect sense if it can handle the load of the new Mini. Especially if it is compatible with the new displays and is of better quality than the old connector.

BS, the power supply is in the monitor to operate your laptop. Simple as that really, if your battery happens to need a recharge you get that too. That isn't the primary point of the power supply though, it is there so the lappie can make like a desktop.

That could be said about the current Mini connector too.

You are so wrong about the "core service" that I'm not sure if there is a point to further discussions. I will repeat though, the power supply is there so that the new monitor can work with the laptop in desktop duty mode. Any recharge you get out of the system is simply grave on top of everything else.

As to additional mechanical help with retention that may help but I don't really see it as an absolute requirement.

What?

You are getting hard to follow here. The connector from the power supply would not be modified, it would be the same one that comes with the current monitor. If anything at all is done it will be a case mounted retainer.

What many people are missing here is that this approach offers Apple a way to unbundle the power supply and lower the machines list price. This how one powers the Mini will be up to the purchaser when he makes the purchase. It also opens up the market to a wide range of power supplies.

The real argument against MagSafe isn't the connector but rather is an issue of electrical power. Many laptop power supplies depend on the laptops battery to support surge loads. In otherwirds many laptop power supplies can't handle transient loads like a disk spinup. This is why many laptops require that a battery be inplace even when line connected. I'm not sure what the case is with Apple products but atleast this would be a counter indication.

In any event the MagSafe connector itself isn't anyworst than the old connector.


Dave

If the DisplayPort has HDCP, I guarantee you the DVI port will as well. It's not a big deal. Every decent monitor and every last HDTV you can buy today has HDCP, so it's only a limitation if you've got a crappy or old monitor. And it doesn't affect DVDs, or any other media that lacks HDCP.

I don't like DRM, either, but this is something few normal people will encounter. Blame the MPAA, not Apple, if you've got a problem.

I had an eMac circa 2003... and with a firmware hack it could do dual displays. I'm sure the same thing could be done for a "crippled" mac mini that only supports one display at a time. But I have a feeling it'll be the 9400m gfx chip, along with a price hike.

BTW: there is already a mini-DVI to TV adapter for those interested in using it with older TVs.

I think the same people that complain about the lack of 9.5mm Blu-ray drives, which requires HDCP for playback, in Mac notebooks are the same ones that complained about Apple finally adding HDCP support to their HW.

If DisplayPort monitors are daisy chainable they how come there is no mini-displayport connector on the Apple LED Cinema Display? There is the 3 headed cable exiting the display with Mini DisplayPort for connection to the computer, but no chassis connector on the display that would be required if a second display was to daisy chain off it. If Apple introduces another display with a mini-DisplayPort connector, maybe a 20" to replace the current 20" model, THEN maybe one could say the Mac mini would get dual display support. The only option would be to replace the current DVI-I connector with two mini-DisplayPort connections. Considering the market segment the mini is targeted at, I don't see that happening.

The DRM protection on the mini DisplayPort is limited to high def content, so it shouldn't affect playing DVDs. As no Mac can currently play a Blu-ray disc, it only affects playing back downloaded HD content. And the LED Cinema Display (24") supports HDCP so the only problem for a home media center would be hooking the new computer to an old display that does not support HDCP. There are plenty of old LCD and Plasma monitors out there that lack the modern HDCP support found in the HDMI equipped more modern displays.

Not at this 90 minute short keynote. Next month is a better chance of the new 17" MacBook Pro and iMac getting the new quad-core option that started shipping Dec. 28, 2008.

They said DP tech I don't thing you will see a full size mac pro video card with mini DP maybe full DP to mini DP.

The mac mini may not have the room for full DP. I should have dual mini DP with mini DP to DVI + DVI to VGA and mini dp to full DP.

The mac pro uses full size ati and nvidia cards not build in ports so they don't need a mini port on them.


Or lose the sale to Psystar If apple had a good desktop tower at $800 - $1200+ then Psystar will be dead.

If the DVI port had HDCP, it would be an HDMI port.

The original poster was referring to a much older model which had a lower VRAM equipped video card. The circa late 2000 Power Macintosh G4 (Gigabit Ethernet) came with the first video card with a ADC connector (another Apple exclusive), the ATI RAGE 128 Pro had just 16MB of video RAM but could drive either a ADC monitor OR a DVI monitor. That DVI monitor could have been adapted to a VGA monitor with a simple adapter.

The spec allows for daisy chaining, that doesn't mean Apple will support it. There are many things that Apple chooses not to support because the number of users is to low for them to bother with supporting.

However, Apple or a 3rd-party could make an adapter that goes between the machine and the monitor that allows for multiple monitor support.

Bingo. I need a Mini to power an analog projector. If these new mini's only had DisplayPort, I wouldn't (couldn't) buy one. Having mini-DVI integrated means that I can gladly buy a handful of them for my application. This is a huge huge deal for a lot of people who use Mini's.

Apple has included special Apple only video cards, such as the ADC equipped models in early/mid Power Mac G4 models, so it's quite possible the only video cards offered for a next-gen Mac Pro could in fact have a pair of mini-DP connections which would favor future Apple displays and support, with a apple supplied mini-DP to DVI or dual-link DVI adapter or two, legacy Apple displays or 3rd party displays. The Mac mini does not use a standard PCI or PCI express slot for video support, it uses a custom motherboard similar but not identical that used on the MacBook, so while it may be possible Apple could put in a pair of mini-DP on the motherboard considering the space within the current enclosure (regardless of any cosmetic changes), I don't see Apple considering that to be in the interest of the intended market. It seems more likely as Apple is promoting the use of HD tapeless camcorders which tend to use USB 2.0 and not FireWire, then they are more likely to replace the DVI-I with a USB port plus a mini-DP port. They could also go the way of offering a FW800 port instead of the FW400 port in order to offer faster performance in the same backplane space like the 15" MacBook Pro, which would then be easily and cheaply adapted to FW400 for those that need that connection.

Some form of Y cable? Does the spec allow for that? You don't see FireWire Y cables, but discrete connections for upstream and downstream use. And FireWire bus technology supports addressing logical targets, thus you can copy something to drive A and drive B at the same time. Does DisplayPort tech spec allow for that kind of thing? I don't know. I would tend to think even if the specs support it, Apple won't go for it. A next gen iMac with display port would support just the one external display just like now via the mini-DVI to DVI connection. The only true external dual display machine is the Mac Pro which has two discrete DVI connections. I'd have to assume the next gen Mac Pro (Tuesday I hope) would be offered with a choice of video cards, both with twin mini DisplayPorts. That seems to be the Steve Jobs way.

Apple makes a Mini DisplayPort to VGA adapter for your analog projector. For example see http://www.macmall.com/macmall/shop/...mfg=MB572Z%2FA

Why doesn't Apple put an HDMI port on the Mini? It would be so much better than AppleTV. Or conversely, why doesn't AppleTV offer a regular Leopard interface? Then you could use use a bluetooth keyboard/mouse and use your HDTV like a regular Mac.

The AppleTV is designed to be a media extended, not a PC. While the Mac Mini is designed to be a PC, not a media extender.

The reason is the Mac mini is targeted as a home computer not a consumer electronics home media server. consumer electronics use HDMI and computers use DVI. look in the computer section of a Best Buy for example, and you will see the COMPUTER monitors have DVI or lower end VGA connections (if not both). Over in the TV section, you'll see TVs with HDMI inputs, designed for DVD and blu-ray disc players and a very few high end Super VHS tape decks, and some HD camcorders and perhaps the output from a AV receiver which has HDMI input switching. Different target audience. Of course there are non-Apple computer displays with various inputs including HDMI and there are TVs with DVI or VGA inputs for the crossover markets you seem to be interested in. Apple doesn't seem interested in this besides the AppleTV which has a HDMI output because it's targeted at plugging into a wide screen TV.

No actually there are DVI connections with/without HDCP

http://tv.about.com/od/hdtv/a/hdmidvihdcp.htm


They both use TMDS transmission/receiving but of course HDMI has 8 channels of LPCM audio.

In fact even Firewire supports copy protection (5C encyption)

No. It would be a DVI port with HDCP.

Migration Assistant paired with Time Machine is Apple's solution to this, Migration Assistant will let you save a drive image to another external USB drive, and Time Machine is supposed to eliminate the need for CCC or SuperDuper, albeit, CCC is much faster.

Apple could do a HDCP equipped DVI port, but they seem to be switching to mini DisplayPort in order to save physical space and to encourage Mac users to buy their new displays and avoid various adapters.

I haven't tried CCC lately but when I tried a backup with CCC 3 not too long ago, it seemed slow so I checked the disk activity throughput and I/O operations per second with Activity Monitor, and there seemed to be longer periods of little activity with CCC 3 compared to SuperDuper! 2.5 which had better throughput. Has version 3.1.3 been upgraded so much that it is now competitive?