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Sources: 17-inch MacBook Pro, NVIDIA Mac mini due shortly - Page 3

post #81 of 119
1/4/09 at 9:59pm
I don't see Apple going for silver-zinc battery technology in any new MBP or MacBook. Even with the current draw of a comparatively low-powered laptop computer, I just don't see it happening. (And Yes, I will eat virtual crow if I'm wrong here.)

Why? If the folks at Anton/Bauer are correct -- that technology is very fussy. They should know; they've been building battery packs for broadcast video equipment for decades, and have experience with silver-zinc batteries in that particular application.

If you're interested in their logic behind such thinking of mine, go to the Anton/Bauer website, and download a PDF of their "Video Battery Handbook." Serious stuff, and very geekish in places. If I'm doing video work that I'm being paid for, I want their batteries. No Ands, Ifs, Buts, or Whatevers.
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post #82 of 119
1/4/09 at 10:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilco View Post

Well, yeah, but an adapter doesn't create a port where one doesn't exist.

Well, yeah. It kind of does. See you turn one port into another. Granted you loose access to a port but...
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post #83 of 119
1/4/09 at 11:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by noriyori View Post

Well, yeah. It kind of does. See you turn one port into another. Granted you loose access to a port but...

obviously that's what he meant, and why adaptors are not an ideal way to deal with many situations.
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post #84 of 119
1/4/09 at 11:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wobegon View Post

Laptops are the desktops of tomorrow. Apple realizes this, which is why they advertise the new Cinema Display as follows:

An LED display that turns your notebook into a desktop[...]
http://www.apple.com/displays/features.html

This is referenced a number of times on their site, in writing and (obviously) pictures, some with their laptops in lid-closed mode.

But that is no different from the docking station I had ten years ago with my first ever laptop. Most PC manufactures sold docking stations that you just slid your laptop into, a single connection and boom you had access to external monitor, keyboard, mouse, speakers etc.. all through one connection. That was never heralded as the end of the desktop PC, it was always just a great way of not having to spend the money on two computers.
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post #85 of 119
1/5/09 at 12:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

The new uni-body Macs have all their ports on one side from the power plug to the Kensington lock.

Unlike the 13 inch unibody MacBook, the unibody MacBook Pro has the Kensington security slot on the side with the optical drive. Apple could very well have put the security slot on the left side of the MacBook just so they would have an excuse to say that there was no room for a Firewire 800 connector.
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post #86 of 119
1/5/09 at 12:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buck View Post

Well, the real killer will be if they announce a huge price drop on Mac Mini. Like bring them back to that $500 margin. Lately it's been nothing but price increases among the whole Mac line...

Steve Jobs already said that he doesn't know how to make a $500 computer that's not a piece of junk. Never mind the fact that the original Mac Mini started at $499. If Apple were to return to the $500 pricing, then either Steve is admitting that the Mac Mini is a piece of junk, or Steve is a liar. So Apple would have to raise prices just to avoid making Steve look bad.
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post #87 of 119
1/5/09 at 12:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wobegon View Post

Mmm, that's nice for BMW, a car company. Not exactly analogous to Apple, a computer company.

But aren't Apple defenders always the ones using BMW and Mercedes analogies in response to complaints about Apple's prices and market share? You like making those comparisons then, but not now?
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post #88 of 119
1/5/09 at 12:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocNo42 View Post

Mini DP is allot less gangly then DVI, can support higher resolutions and also supports daisy chaining.

Except that Apple's own monitor doesn't seem to support daisy chaining. And it is unknown whether Apple's graphics cards will support daisy chaining of DisplayPort monitors at all. It is also unknown whether the Mini DisplayPort output on Apple's Macs can support audio. So while the DisplayPort standard can support a lot of features, it seems that Apple has chosen to support only the absolute minimum level of functionality, just so they can claim that they are using DisplayPort.
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post #89 of 119
1/5/09 at 5:53am
Jeez people. Mini-DVI + Mini-DP is a great thing if it happens. Ever hear of something called dual monitors? It would mean a mini that could drive either a 30" ACD or 2x24" monitors. I'd love a dual monitor setup for my mini.

Look at the back of your mini. Put a FW800 where the FW400 goes and there's no bleeding room for a full sized DVI port AND a Mini-DP port unless you want to get rid of "non-essential" items like the vents.

The only "bad" thing about Mini-DVI is that it implies that the footprint of the mini doesn't change much. Meaning same notebook drive, etc. Okay, and a need for a little adapter since no one appears to make a mini-DVI to DVI cable.
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post #90 of 119
1/5/09 at 6:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Perhaps, it would be only the Sl-DVI adapter. The mDP-to-SLDVI is $29 and the mDP-to-DLDVI is $99. But I think Apple's current position not to include adapters and their move to DP monitors means that the adapters will be an additional cost.

An HDMI port would be nice on a MacMini given the potential for this being a media hub ... unless Apple have another such beast on the way. I have an AppleTV and it is great but I only stream from a MacPro since all my HD movies would fill the ATV in no time.
Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
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Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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post #91 of 119
1/5/09 at 6:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by l008com View Post

I'm thrilled that apple is going to keep firewire on the mini. Two laptop hard drives don't make a mini server. 2 or more external desktop hard drives in enclosures, thats how you make a server.

If you are serious, then I certinly hope you do not work with in the technology field, because there is one word to describe any computer person who suggests that kind of setup as a "server": that word is fired!
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post #92 of 119
1/5/09 at 6:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_greer View Post

If you are serious, then I certinly hope you do not work with in the technology field, because there is one word to describe any computer person who suggests that kind of setup as a "server": that word is fired!

Exactly. Servers need redundancy; redundant power supplies, redundant storage, redundant network ports. The mini has none of those. Now there is nothing inherently wrong with using a mini as a desktop server or part of a cluster, but Apple won't market it like that and if you are doing this in the enterprise, you are using the wrong tool here.
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post #93 of 119
1/5/09 at 7:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murphster View Post

But that is no different from the docking station I had ten years ago with my first ever laptop. Most PC manufactures sold docking stations that you just slid your laptop into, a single connection and boom you had access to external monitor, keyboard, mouse, speakers etc.. all through one connection. That was never heralded as the end of the desktop PC, it was always just a great way of not having to spend the money on two computers.

That was a docking station. Nobody had to proclaim "and this is teh beginning of teh end for desktops!!" for it to be true, but obviously docking stations aren't why people are turning to laptops over desktops in ever greater proportions. You yourself listed some reasons why in response to my original post.

I'll concede that perhaps I should have said the industry is overwhelmingly moving towards laptops, as the entire industry is a bit of a stretch considering business, which upgrades their existing systems before they'll consider buying new ones, whether they be desktops or laptops. Even though that's really the only major hold-out and I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt, it shouldn't not be counted.
False comparisons do not a valid argument make.
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post #94 of 119
1/5/09 at 7:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by elliots11 View Post

I'd say it doesn't make sense for the 15" mbp to have a removable battery, but not the 17". It probably has something to do with structural rigidity for the larger macbook, but maybe there's an additional benefit.

I'm wondering if this means that the 17" might be styled not like the 15", but rather like a very large Air. One advantage of this is that the Air has no glass in front of the screen, so a 17" "Air" could, in theory, have a non-glossy option.

The machine would also be large without looking massive. It could also be 16:9. I think it's too early (too costly), for an OLED display though, except as an option.

Basically I'm saying the 17" might not be just a larger 15". In one way or another it could be a unique model. This would better explain the delay between introductions than some possible manufacturing issues.

We'll see.
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post #95 of 119
1/5/09 at 7:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by noriyori View Post

Well, yeah. It kind of does. See you turn one port into another. Granted you loose access to a port but...

What he was pointing out was that the unibody MacBooks don't have ANY FireWire ports. Not FW400, not FW800. Zip. Zilch. Zero. Nada. So an adapter in that case isn't a solution.

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post #96 of 119
1/5/09 at 7:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post

Steve Jobs already said that he doesn't know how to make a $500 computer that's not a piece of junk. Never mind the fact that the original Mac Mini started at $499. If Apple were to return to the $500 pricing, then either Steve is admitting that the Mac Mini is a piece of junk, or Steve is a liar. So Apple would have to raise prices just to avoid making Steve look bad.

No, no, no.

I listened to the call where he made that statement and he was replying to a question about notebooks. He clearly meant a $500 notebook.

Besides, the Mini was never a $500 computer; you need to buy a keyboard, mouse, monitor and so on. A mini with a decent monitor, keyboard, etc. was closer to $900 than $500. You are misusing Steve's statement, taking it out of context, in two different ways.
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post #97 of 119
1/5/09 at 7:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post

Unlike the 13 inch unibody MacBook, the unibody MacBook Pro has the Kensington security slot on the side with the optical drive. Apple could very well have put the security slot on the left side of the MacBook just so they would have an excuse to say that there was no room for a Firewire 800 connector.

That's where the 15" MacBook Pro's Kensington security slot has always been. That's where it is on my nearly 4 year old 15" PowerBook G4.

Furthermore, the security slot isn't part of the motherboard, so it wouldn't impact internal space.
False comparisons do not a valid argument make.
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post #98 of 119
1/5/09 at 8:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post

Steve Jobs already said that he doesn't know how to make a $500 computer that's not a piece of junk. Never mind the fact that the original Mac Mini started at $499. If Apple were to return to the $500 pricing, then either Steve is admitting that the Mac Mini is a piece of junk, or Steve is a liar. So Apple would have to raise prices just to avoid making Steve look bad.

Steve (or Phil or Jonathon or ???) could simply say that they didn't know how to make a $500 computer that's not a piece of junk until, BOOM!, now.

Its as much about authoring the dialog as it is about controlling the message.

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post #99 of 119
1/5/09 at 8:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B View Post

Steve (or Phil or Jonathon or ???) could simply say that they didn't know how to make a $500 computer that's not a piece of junk until, BOOM!, now.

Its as much about authoring the dialog as it is about controlling the message.

User Alonso Perez correctly noted (above) that the "$500 junk" statement has been taken out of its original context, which was notebooks, referencing netbooks.
http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/news/index.cfm?newsid=106043
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post #100 of 119
1/5/09 at 9:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

They need to do something as they look really terrible vs PCs now. I saw this deal quite recently:

Stylish Quad core 2.4GHz mid-tower, 2GB Ram, 320GB HDD, Nvidia 7050, DVDRW with 19" display, keyboard and mouse £529.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I don't think the comparison you make is very direct. Both the Mini and iMac use notebook-grade parts to reduce size and heat. This increases cost while reducing performance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobtheTomato View Post

That's nice except I didn't ask Apple for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I'm not sure I understand your resentment. It sounds like you are blaming Apple for purposely not building a machine a certain way because you want it. Apple is business, their "own reasons" are to make money, plain and simple.

So lets back this up. Someone posts a price comparison between a Mini and a PC. In response you state that since Apple uses laptop parts to make the mini we should expect higher price and lower performance. Q.E.D. I point out that I'd rather have the lower cost and higher performance. You then claim this criticism is misguided and unfair.

This is why fanboys are infuriating. I don't think this is that hard. For better or worse, the Mini is the one product Apple has to offer in the budget desktop market. So then, many potential mini buyers shop the mini against budget desktop PCs instead of against Small Form Factor (SFF) PCs. Insisting this comparison is perforce invalid because Apple decided to use higher cost and lower performance components is a non-sequitur.

To be certain, against other SFF PCs, the mini is less overpriced and underpowered. However I have not seen any data that the budget and switcher markets desire a SFF over a minitower form factor. Apple is still run by mortals. In this case I think they are making a mistake.
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post #101 of 119
1/5/09 at 9:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobtheTomato View Post

So lets back this up. Someone posts a price comparison between a Mini and a PC. In response you state that since Apple uses laptop parts to make the mini we should expect higher price and lower performance. Q.E.D. I point out that I'd rather have the lower cost and higher performance. You then claim this criticism is misguided and unfair.

The argument you have is that Apple's doesn't make the elusive xMac to suit your specific needs. Outside of that there is no debate because comparing a machine with laptop-grade part to a machine with desktop-grade parts just to say that the Mini is woefully overpriced is inane because you are not comparing components accurately. It's like comparing desktops with a 2.4GHz Celeron to a 2.4GHz i7 and then saying that the i&'s desktops is overpriced because it's not the same price as the Celeron based machine. Same thing goes with many other components and accesories, especially monitors. The less knowledgeable will compare the screen size without ever considering any other aspects of the display.
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post #102 of 119
1/5/09 at 9:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdkennedy1 View Post

What doesn't make sense is why Apple continues to use aging Firewire ports instead of the much faster eSATA ports.

Because many people have external FireWire hard drives and MiniDV cameras.
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post #103 of 119
1/5/09 at 9:49am
Dude, the $499 is not a "computer" in the sense that it DOES NOT have a screen or keyboard. Add a screen and keyboard, and it's not $499. I guess the only person here who is lying is you, or you lack the ability to think logically.
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post #104 of 119
1/5/09 at 10:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobtheTomato View Post

So lets back this up. Someone posts a price comparison between a Mini and a PC. In response you state that since Apple uses laptop parts to make the mini we should expect higher price and lower performance. Q.E.D. I point out that I'd rather have the lower cost and higher performance. You then claim this criticism is misguided and unfair.

This is why fanboys are infuriating. I don't think this is that hard. For better or worse, the Mini is the one product Apple has to offer in the budget desktop market. So then, many potential mini buyers shop the mini against budget desktop PCs instead of against Small Form Factor (SFF) PCs. Insisting this comparison is perforce invalid because Apple decided to use higher cost and lower performance components is a non-sequitur.

To be certain, against other SFF PCs, the mini is less overpriced and underpowered. However I have not seen any data that the budget and switcher markets desire a SFF over a minitower form factor. Apple is still run by mortals. In this case I think they are making a mistake.

Evidently it is hard because folks still don't seem to grok the concept that Apple doesn't want to compete in the budget desktop market. In fact, Apple has zero traditional desktop computers in it's lineup and certainly nothing in the budget market.

Mini - Small Form Factor, iMac - AIO, Mac Pro - Workstation.

Even if a mythical xMac were to appear it would be horridly overpriced in comparison to a typical budget tower because it would be yet another small form factor computer, much like the cube. Which failed pretty miserably.

The mini is an entry level machine for Apple, not a budget machine. Which is like saying this TV is the entry level TV for the Sony Bravia line. It's still $300 more expensive than the Vizio or Sceptre or whatever budget brand you can get from Costco or Best Buy.

Low end offerings in premium lines are typically so-so bang for the buck items. Cars, TVs, computers, food, clothes, whatever. You pay a brand penalty without much of the corresponding performance/style benefits. Which usually are not good bang for the buck improvements anyway even when you DO get them.

In this case, the mini isn't so bad for what you get. The only real weakness in the intell Mini was graphics. Which the update should address.

Anyone in the market for bang for the buck shouldn't be looking at Apple's line up even if the least expensive machine is in their price range.
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post #105 of 119
1/5/09 at 12:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Evidently it is hard because folks still don't seem to grok the concept that Apple doesn't want to compete in the budget desktop market.

The problem is the budget desktops (Prostar and their ilk) wants to compete with them.
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post #106 of 119
1/5/09 at 12:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobtheTomato View Post

The problem is the budget desktops (Prostar and their ilk) wants to compete with them.

Whose problem is it?
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post #107 of 119
1/5/09 at 12:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

The argument you have is that Apple's doesn't make the elusive xMac to suit your specific needs. Outside of that there is no debate because comparing a machine with laptop-grade part to a machine with desktop-grade parts just to say that the Mini is woefully overpriced is inane because you are not comparing components accurately.

So if the Mac Minis case was solid gold would it be inane to compare its price with a machine without a solid gold case?

Being able to explain why something is more costly is not the same as proving it should be more costly.
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post #108 of 119
1/5/09 at 1:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobtheTomato View Post

The problem is the budget desktops (Prostar and their ilk) wants to compete with them.

And they can. Without OSX. You know Vista is NOT as bad as some folks make it out to be.

Why is this a problem anyway? Let Dell and HP go for high volume with thin margins.
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post #109 of 119
1/5/09 at 1:03pm
That's a crazy circular argument. You can explain why something is more costly, but explaining it does not prove it? Then what does prove it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobtheTomato View Post

Being able to explain why something is more costly is not the same as proving it should be more costly.
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post #110 of 119
1/5/09 at 1:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobtheTomato View Post

So if the Mac Minis case was solid gold would it be inane to compare its price with a machine without a solid gold case?

Yes, it would be stupid to compare the price of such machine.

Quote:
Being able to explain why something is more costly is not the same as proving it should be more costly.

Explaining why it is more costly proves why it more costly. Don't confuse cost with value! If you continue to do the most rudimentary of comparisons then their would be no reason why anyone should ever have you buy more than a $300 PC desktop.
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post #111 of 119
1/5/09 at 1:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobtheTomato View Post

So if the Mac Minis case was solid gold would it be inane to compare its price with a machine without a solid gold case?

Yes. For the same reason it is inane to compare the gold plated Nokia Gold Arte, gold Samsung or Vertu against the iPhone and say the iPhone is better because it does more stuff and is cheaper. No kidding. It isn't covered with gold.

Comparing the Goldstriker 24K gold iPhone to those phones would make somewhat more sense. The point however, is that folks that buy exensive phones do not rank saving money as a particularly high criteria.

Neither do folks that buy a Mac over a HP or Dell. They value other aspects of the total cost of ownership and user experience.
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post #112 of 119
1/5/09 at 1:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Explaining why it is more costly proves why it more costly. Don't confuse cost with value! If you continue to do the most rudimentary of comparisons then their would be no reason why anyone should ever have you buy more than a $300 PC desktop.

Explanation isn't proof, but the problem is that proof is often too tall of a request in an informal discussion.
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post #113 of 119
1/5/09 at 1:44pm
The proof is generally in the explanation. Their are clear reasons why the Mac mini costs more than a budget Dell PC. Software/ component costs are one factor. Business models are another factor.

Whether its value is worth the cost can be up to individual debate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Explanation isn't proof, but the problem is that proof is often too tall of a request in an informal discussion.
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post #114 of 119
1/5/09 at 2:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

The proof is generally in the explanation.

Maybe for lax definitions of proof.

Quote:
Their are clear reasons why the Mac mini costs more than a budget Dell PC. Software/ component costs are one factor. Business models are another factor.

Whether its value is worth the cost can be up to individual debate.

Just to let it be known, I do agree with all this. But it's not proof as far as I'm concerned.
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post #115 of 119
1/5/09 at 2:27pm
@ BobtheTomato,

How do explain the Dell Studio Hybrid?


Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

The proof is generally in the explanation. Their are clear reasons why the Mac mini costs more than a budget Dell PC. Software/ component costs are one factor. Business models are another factor.

JeffDM is technically correct. The explanation could be completely true, but their may be no actual proof to support it even if it's rationally and logically stated.

For proof of the some of the price differences, BobtheTomato can go to the lonk below to see the prices of Intel chips per 1000.

•

http://www.intc.com/priceList.cfm For example, Intel lists the MBA's CPU as $284 and $316 for the 1.6GHz and 1.8GHz chips, respectively. That is almost the cost of a netbook with a 1.6GHz Atom CPU. Of course, these prices aren't what Apple and other OEMs pay, but they do show that it's a logical fallacy to assume that the same clock-speed (or other components) should equal the same price because of some simple comparison.
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post #116 of 119
1/5/09 at 2:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

JeffDM is technically correct. The explanation could be completely true, but their may be no actual proof to support it even if it's rationally and logically stated.

I suppose I'm coming from the point that an explanation contains empirical information to support the explanation. Other wise its mostly an opinion.

Quote:
For example, Intel lists the MBA's CPU as $284 and $316 for the 1.6GHz and 1.8GHz chips, respectively. That is almost the cost of a netbook with a 1.6GHz Atom CPU. Of course, these prices aren't what Apple and other OEMs pay, but they do show that it's a logical fallacy to assume that the same clock-speed (or other components) should equal the same price because of some simple comparison.

Certainly the current Mac mini isn't a good example of price vs value. Its a year and a half long into its refresh cycle. But when you look at it after a new refresh its easier to explain.
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post #117 of 119
1/5/09 at 3:12pm
I wonder if anyone remembers the MBP 17-inch part of this thread? Any more thoughts on the practicality of the new milling techniques for a machine that size; I have the older model, before the most recent upgrade and I've loved having that fantastic screen when I did not have to carry it further than to school and back, or when I wanted to use its screen in a small Seminar group, but the MBA won my heart for research note taking or just carrying around or jotting with or travelling.

BTW, does anyone really use the "Air" features of the MacBook Air that were so much trumpeted by Steve when it was announced? Of course I use the wireless internet connection, but I still load software via the clunky external DVD "SUPER-DRIVE".
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"Run faster. History is a constant race between invention and catastrophe. Education helps but it is never enough. You must also run." Leto Atreides II
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post #118 of 119
1/5/09 at 4:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cubit View Post

BTW, does anyone really use the "Air" features of the MacBook Air that were so much trumpeted by Steve when it was announced? Of course I use the wireless internet connection, but I still load software via the clunky external DVD "SUPER-DRIVE".

I'm not sure what you mean by "Air" features. I have an Ethernet adapter for my Air, but sometimes I use the wireless. It's no different than what I would do with the MBP.

I use some gestures. They do come in handy enough that I feel less need for a mouse than I have in the past. I didn't get the external drive yet. No need so far. I love the machine. I'd like one more USB port OR a Firewire port, a slightly larger screen (14"), and 4GB. These will come in time. I don't need the DVD drive, and I don't have a problem with the fixed battery; I have never had a second battery for any laptop or notebook I've ever owned or used.
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post #119 of 119
1/6/09 at 6:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alonso Perez View Post

I'm not sure what you mean by "Air" features. I have an Ethernet adapter for my Air, but sometimes I use the wireless. It's no different than what I would do with the MBP.

I use some gestures. They do come in handy enough that I feel less need for a mouse than I have in the past. I didn't get the external drive yet. No need so far. I love the machine. I'd like one more USB port OR a Firewire port, a slightly larger screen (14"), and 4GB. These will come in time. I don't need the DVD drive, and I don't have a problem with the fixed battery; I have never had a second battery for any laptop or notebook I've ever owned or used.

Thank you Alonso Perez for answering my irregular query. I've always lugged around an extra battery in my many trips internationally with my trusty MBP17 or earlier PB G4 and PB G3 Pismos, but I am red-faced in admitting that I've never actually popped one out and put in a replacement. I did once load two into that Pismo instead of the DVD drive, though--- there was an "adoptable" Blackbird if ever there was, with a great sensual shape and feel in the hand when you carried it.

Back to the Air, though, I was thinking about trying to load MS Office "wirelessly" or updating Photoshop without that external drive.
"Run faster. History is a constant race between invention and catastrophe. Education helps but it is never enough. You must also run." Leto Atreides II
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"Run faster. History is a constant race between invention and catastrophe. Education helps but it is never enough. You must also run." Leto Atreides II
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