A closer look at Apple's advanced notebook battery tech - Page 4

You mean like the one HP announced last month?

Apparently the thing can be recharged to 80% capacity in half an hour, without impacting on its 1000 cycle lifespan.

Looks like the big players are taking this 'green battery' thing very seriously ....

That's not 100% correct, all it means is after 300 charges if you are getting 4 hours, what I get with 60 cycles so far=4 hours, real world, than after 300, you would get 80 % of 4 hours, that's all. They say the ideal user is someone who uses the laptop on a train to work, then plugs it in once they get to work with them draining it once a month until dead, then 3 hours in hibernation.

Seriously though, 4 hours is more accurate, the macbooks are a bit better at 6 hours or so due to smaller screen. But Apple should release software that turns off one core or ramps down the CPU / GPU big time for web surfing, writing, or someone out there should write this software as we could get double the life with cutting the GPU/CPU/FPU cycles down as you don't need much to type MS WORD, ILIFE, surfing WEB.

Any idea why there is no software that does this?

That said, with many of us using laptops as desktops, I have some really cool ideas to make the laptop stronger when plugged in - who do I submit patient ideas>?

Thanks

I thought they were talking about the silver-zinc battery more expensive but last longer and more "green" Zpower said that a major manufacturer was slated to use it, i thought apple but i guess i was wrong.

http://www.zpowerbattery.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver-oxide_battery

video.gearlive.com/video/article/q108-ces-2008-video-zpower-silver-zinc-batteries/ - 102k -

http://venturebeat.com/2008/04/01/wi...s-this-summer/

instead of carrying other batteries carry an external silver_zinc instead.

You're entitled to that right but look at a company such as digidesign. They bought MAUDIO as they were losing millions to home recording, now they have MAUDIO (Consumer) and their HD systems, PRO users. But Apple completely abandoned the PRO, not really the fan, but the PRO. In fact when they came out with Logic, for the first year, DIGI released only a WINDOWS version of HD - which by the way, windows is used more in the #1 school for editing now, even with FCP, as I was shown, at the school, how cheap yet effective the newer DELL SERVERS scale and how powerful they can be compared to MAC. I was shocked to learn this. The school is Media Symphony in Burbank.

10 years ago, Pro Tools studios and Avid (the mother of Digi) were #1 around the world.
Today, Pro Tools is still #1 in the studios but are very few compared to years ago, many have closed their doors and some studio owners are working retail for music hardware retail stores. Avid is being replaced by FCP or Vegas for video. For PC, many are using NUENDO and of course the markets that used to be huge with pro tools LE (consumer) has been replaced by Apogee , Apple or Mackie/Apogee and PC's as the consumer can do much more than just 10 years ago. Digi realizing the semi PRO wanted certain things, they released Pro Tools 8 just a few weeks ago which gave the user 7.1 access, something they have been asking for for years and Digi listened.

Apple on the other hand has turned a deaf ear to the Pro market, the people who stuck by them through the 1990's, a time where Apple almost went away yet how are they rewarded? Well once Apple had the success of the iPhone, Apple focuses all their efforts on the consumer.

Add to that the Macbook could be used for MOTION/FINAL CUT (earlier Macbooks) even though OPeN GL was slow, Apple went out of their way to release a newer GMA that effected only those using PRO APPS and made it impossible to use the PRO APPS. The first benchmarks were 171%, it dropped to 70%, again affecting only the PRO APPS - as the consumer couldn't play games on the machine anyway. Is that the right way to reward PRO USERS that have been with them for years? To go out of their way to make sure they can't have a back up machine that's cheap to use and cripple the macbook? Then Apple releases a newer Macbook with a great GPU = great gaming which would have meant great PRO APP use, so what does Apple do? They take firewire away. So no video cameras. Only this time, not only does it affect PRO USERS who wanted a cheaper back up machine, but it also affected those that used TARGET disc mode, thousands and thousands of musicians (as most semi pro high end audio uses firewire 400), and many mom and pop users that have fire wire video camcorder's, ALL DUE To APPLE AFRAID THAT THE NEW MACBOOK WITH STELLAR GRAPhicS (GPU) WOULD MEAN THE PRO could USe it... again, Apple going out of their way.

It's one thing to say that Apple this, Apple that, but when you see the truth, you see not only has APPLE abandoned the PRO user, they go OUT OF THEIR WAY to SMACK DOWN their use on any CHEAP SOLUTION instead of rewarding them for sticking with them through thick and thin -

Apple will release the products we all want once Jobs steps down, you watch and see - Apple will double in market share when this happens. Until then, Jobs makes sure that the PRO always has to spend almost double the $$$$ simply to do one extra thing.

What is not 100% accurate?! What you've just said about battery life is what i have posted!!! Personally, I will probably replace my battery when I start getting less than 3 hours (about 75% based on 4 hours). Based on my usage (average of one charge cycle a day), I estimate is that I will hit that in one year and half max.

You can turn off one core easily in Leopard (and maybe Tiger) and Apple offered dual graphic cards in the latest MB to give users choice to get more time when on battery power. However, I've read somewhere that turning off one core won't help you increase your battery life.

Even if it couldn't, adaptive charging* could charge the internal and then the external. Even have the OS X Menu Bar list both.


* New Apple buzz word, despite being around for many, many years.

Actually it is. Recognizing the passing of old tech knowlogy is as important as having a handle on where tech goes in the future. After all modern electronic packaging can only support so much I/O.

Actually it would make a lot of sense for Apple to find alternatives to these rather old I/O methods. Direct links to the brain would be nice but I'd settle for voice communications with an AI program to handle or manage your various tasks on the computer.

Hey it works for the Cylons why not for us.

Ideally more than Steves wisdom as he has pulled more than a few boners.

Not to be unkind but with your point of view we would all be running Vic20s as our computers. Frankly it was a nice Toy in it's day but I'd hate to be stuck with it's I/O set. Innovation requires weighing the value of the old ways of doing something against multiple possible new ways of solving a problem.

I'm not trying to defend Apples approach with the built in battery as honestly it leads to mixed feelings. In the end the battery is not a big deal over all. Rather what is is the sum of all the little bits of innovation that have gone into this new MBP.

The pics that show the machine with the bottom cover off, put on display one elegant machine. It demonstrates how innovation in manufacturing ( unibody) leads to innovation in layout and serviceability. Let's face it even withou the big battery the new MBP looks yummy inside.

Dave

Key word highlighted in bold. Just as they aren't going to come out say you can't, I doubt they will come out and say you can (because then they would have to support it). But they can't - by law - prevent you from changing it.

And they know it, otherwise there would be a different word instead of should up there.

Please stop repeating statements that simply aren't true. It's against the law for them to void your warrant for simply changing the battery yourself.

No matter how much you may wish it to be true so you have something to whine about

This whole notion of baseless speculation before anyone has even had a chance to review the item in question is what's really appalling.

No, because it's a vast minority of internet blowhards such as yourself putting up a fuss.

For all the talk about how bad glossy is, I find it amazing that FOUR MONTHS LATER Apple still has brand new (let alone refurb) matte MacBook Pro's on clearance.

Guess what princess - your pea is insignificant to normal people.

To hopefully shut people up?

It also has a $50 fee to cover the overhead with dealing with low volume requests. Hopefully they will offer it on the 15" too and then we will probably see that most of the complainers had no intention of buying a new notebook anyway

Pot, kettle?


And? Why are many of the anti-fanboys acting like the battery is an integral part of the machine, welded into place or something?

Ridiculous! Why wouldn't they be able to remove 10 screws and swap a battery if there was a recall?


What reality are you using to call his statements fantasy? You haven't even seen the notebook, or how the battery is installed in the computer - yet your here insulting someone, calling them a fanboy and implying they are living in a fantasy land? The irony would be funny if it wasn't so sad and pathetic.

Hey, the iPhone 3G battery is removable - it's not soldered like the first iPhone battery was. There is no reason to believe this notebook will be any different. But before calling someone out, why don't we wait for a review?

Frankly, I don't see how this applies, unless there's a more detailed copy of the law out there that specifically says Apple cannot void your warranty by opening the case, even if to replace your battery. If I read your intent correctly, that means I could swap out the hard drive in my MacBook Pro without voiding my AppleCare, which is simply not true. I think Apple would have a very good case to void my warranty.

I get that they probably cannot void my warranty by installing a third-party battery in my laptop, but if I have to crack the case to get to the battery, then all bets are off.

There is one way to test this. Apple should put their money where their mouth is. Don't charge any service fee to install a new battery. Allow users to purchase a replacement battery anywhere, bring it to an Apple store, and have the battery installed while the user waits. And with no service fee. Even if the laptop is out of warranty. If charging users a fee is not the reason for this non-removable battery, then Apple should have no problem with installing batteries for free after the user pays for just the battery.

iMac hockey puck mouse is better than a normal mouse.

Apple will not make a video iPod. Nobody wants to watch video on an iPod.

There will be no iPhone SDK. Nobody wants third party native applications on the iPhone. It is bad to have third party native applications on the iPhone. Web apps are really, really sweet.

Intel is evil. Apple will never switch to Intel processors.

Initially I thought they might too.

Silver is just too expensive I think, but if this ever comes about it could mean 8 hour removable batteries.

This already exists:

TuneJuice for iPhone and iPod uses four AAA batteries for power, allowing for access to a worldwide standard battery for iPod power in the field. It works with most every dock-connector iPod and offers 24-hours of music, six hours of video or two hours of talk time. It ships in January for $30. The Charge Converter (FireWire to USB) works with legacy chargers, adapting them to charge the iPhone 3G and 2008 iPods. It ships in January for $30.

http://www.ipodnn.com/articles/09/01...ches.new.gear/

so, they or SOMEONE will make the same thing for Unibody 17' MBP

So, let's say one is running around with it in Manhattan, or walking in the Jungle - and doing Show and Tells for Monkeys or Suits, no outlets, restaurants won't let you use it, t!!!!!!! So, in between, that TuneJuice-like device is connected to this 17' in the backpack, while walking or on the horse and it charges is! On the horse = solar charging. In the car = simple!

The only drawback would be the ELEGANCE of it being INSIDE the MPB 17'. But it's not a HUGE trade off, and the BENEFITS outweigh it...

If AIRLINES might not let you bring one on board, or even check in, THAT could be a PROBLEM, if the MANUFACTURERS don't EDUCATE them ahead of time!!!!!!!!!!!!

PROBLEM SOLVED, for MOST ALL!, right???????????

I think after YEARS of bad batteries, this FEAR is more PSYCHOLOGICAL...

Why would Apple want to sell more of the cheap stuff and less of the expensive ones??
It was >20 years since Apple was in a better position than now - and APPL is doing rather OK.



Which is perfectly fine (from a business perspective) as long as the professionals are willing to accept this (which MBP sales indicate we are).

--

As the computers today are becoming powerful enough for Pro use, Apple is forced to cripple some of their products in order to sell their more expensive stuff. Apple is the only computer maker that can do this (due to OSX) and thus they have a brighter future (buy APPL!) than the Dells of the world.

If Apple made a high resolution 15" MB with FW800 etc. they might gain market share - but MBP sales would definitely suffer. Not good.

Face it.
Even though Apple could, in an engineering perspective, make the MB, the Mini, an xMac etc. both cheap and powerful (or a niche MacTouch) they cannot do this without taking financial damage.

--

As to Apple releasing expensive computers in a recession:
1. Release schedules are planned/set way in advance.
2. The typical target customer for expensive computers are not affected that much by recession.


Even though the current crisis might have Apple start to plan for cheaper models they just cannot pull one out like a rabbit from a magical hat... Product development (especially for Apple) takes much time, manpower and money.

I work in film, the MacBook is the standard notebook everyone is using. When we are busy at work I hear no one complaining that Apple has abandoned the Pro. I only ever see that on the internet.

The point is that all of your points are moronic.

If Apple is going to make MacBook Pros with fixed internal batteries, then they should also make it easy for users to take out the DVD drive and replace it with a second battery or second hard drive. That way, Apple can advertise its fixed internal battery while other users get to have easily replaceable batteries at the same time. Apple can also make money from selling secondary hard drives and batteries.

All you Macbook Air defenders keep arguing that you don't need an optical drive. If you really believe that, then you should fully support the idea of hot swappable optical drives and secondary batteries. If you say that you don't need an optical drive, why would you want Apple to make a Mac laptop with a DVD drive that you can't easily take out?

1) Why are singling out those who like the MBA?

2) While I don't use an optical drive and would prefer that Apple offered a RAIDed HDD with the remaining space being for an additional battery, I can see the need for an optical drive for many on a 17" machine that might be used as a portable workstation for professionals. The MBA is more of a secondary machine for those that need to or prefer to travel light.

3) Why would the optical drive have to be hot swappable?

You represent everything that's wrong with investors and our overhyped free market system: Greed, ignorance, and shortsightedness. Instead of recognizing Apple for their continuing innovation and financial stability - at a time when most of their competitors are clueless, deep in debt, and announcing layoffs - you are instead preoccupied with how your stock is going to do in the next quarter. It's this sort of shortsighted greed and stupidity that has brought our country into the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression, while dragging the rest of the world along for the ride.

You're missing the point entirely. The whole reason for designing a non-replaceable battery is economizing on space and expense by eliminating unnecessary enclosures and latching mechanisms. If you start adding other modular components like swappable hard drives and optical drives then you would end up back where you started.

Although car-computer analogies are ultimately meaningless, I'll bite. So what if the car did come with a sealed hood, BUT AS A RESULT the car was sleeker, lighter, more fuel efficient, and more attractive, while reliability was such that most people would probably replace it before the sealed engine compartment needed to be accessed? And as far as resale value goes, what if the cost of replacing the sealed engine unit was comparable to the cost of maintenance that you originally saved over the time you owned the vehicle, such that any reduction in the used car's value was offset by the money you saved from not having to service it? Then in the end, you'd have a financial wash, but with the benefit of a nicer car with years of maintenance-free service. I'd say that was a pretty good proposition, unless you're a mechanic.

I think the price of the MBA is the problem. I really don't want to pay more for less. If price was the equivalent of the MB I would purchase. But I'm not going to trade lightness for power and end up paying a lot more. My laptop is mostly for home use in kitchen, living room and even bedroom. I'm not transporting it outside my house.

I think truer words were never spoken. Apple got to where they are now, to get investors to invest into them. When investors invest in companies they think they own it. They don't own it, they are contributing funds for them to continue what the company has been doing to keep being successful. 100% on the greed part. You should be investing to help the company and get a little return in the end.

I hate it when people start off with "well i'm an investor", as that somehow makes them above the rest of us. Many of us choose not to gamble with our money on companies and have a clearer idea of how investing works.


Honestly, I agree with you 100%. The base price is way too high for what the MBA offers. It has less / slower components than any other computer. It has been docked ports and I/O. It's just a niche computer imo.

So the cost to power isn't a value to you. It's not to me either, but to say the price too high is unwarranted just because it's slower than the MB. The SFF CPU is $284 and $316 for the MBA, the 1.8" HDD costs more per GB and the display is much better, and thus more expensive than the MB's display.

To the average consumer it doesn't break down that way. They see the higher price and then weigh the pros / cons of the computer. In the end to most consumers there are a lot more cons than pros with it.

So if something isn't marketed to the average or majority then the product shouldn't be sold? There are premium and niche product in most, if not all, in every market. By that logic, then every single Mac has more cons than pros because you can get the same speed processor and a larger screen and double the RAM, and a lot more ports for considerably less money. Sure the processor may not be Core, or if it is it may be an older and/or cheaper version of Intel's Core but as you indirectly stated, the average consumer doesn't concern itself with those things. So are you saying that Apple's success is a fluke and that Intel is foolishly in processors that are smaller and have more FSB, L2, etc, since the average consumer won't concern themselves with the tech or actual performance in the chips?

Ummm, then clearly the MBA is not for you. Why would anyone buy an MBA if the computer never leaves the house? You are not remotely the target market. You're a macbook customer, pure and simple.

Damn, people love putting words in my mouth on this forum for some reason. I never said it shouldn't be sold. Please point out where I said that. Instead of twisting words around, try and make valid points instead of trying to create points with questions.

Apple is already in a niche market. By doing something like the MBA they are going into a niche of a niche of a niche to get consumers. There isn't a large pool of customers who want that machine compared to others. Does that mean don't sell it? Of course not. As long as it turns a profit, then by all means sell it. The only reason the MBA was even brought up was because of the fixed battery in the 17" mbp a professional grade laptop. The MBA is a very niche market... there is no denying it. There aren't a lot of people that will trade power for a higher price. Even netbooks which are slower, are considerably cheaper.

What we don't understand is why Apple does that well before these techs are actually dead or without an effective replacement in place, and without previous warning. The floppy survived alive and well for years while we had to either buy four or five times more expensive USB versions if we needed something as simple as move a Word file between machines (Internet wasn't that usual in all Apple markets those days); (modem) faxes still are the easiest tool to send documents with absolute proof of the receiver having them printed out so no "oooh your eMail must have been eaten by the Intertrons"-based excuses; etc.

Then we have the idiocy of killing FW400 on the MBs (DV and HDV are not THAT dead), or creating their own variant of DisplayPort connectors (when the normal ones are just USB size-like, so WTF? Is this sort of an ADC galvanic spasm or what?), plus these not transporting audio as the standard imposes (so no fully featured DP-to-HDMI adapters ever for this generation of models).

So no: we don't accept their so-called wisdom that easily.


Anyway, what befuddles me is why they didn't the unswappable battery thing for the non-Pro MacBooks, instead. MacBook Pros ought to be the more flexible variants (what is the battery's real endurance for a full power-on MBP doing, say, Pro HD videocapture and editing on site)?

I've seen quite a few people who marvel at the Air's sleek profile. They would love to have such a light notebook. The main deterrent is the price.

I guarantee you the Air is the future of the MacBook.

The fact that they introduced the 15" and 13" months before the 17" could be an indication that the battery was complicated to make. Their have been numerous new technologies that were in the 17" before the rest of the notebook line. Eventually the sealed battery will make it to the 15" and 13".

Regarding my previous Post:

"External Spare Battery
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...53#post1359953
Posted by: macologist
On: 01-08-2009 02:12 AM

This already exists: TuneJuice for iPhone and iPod"

I have to correct myself slightly....

If Apple doesn't license MagSafe Adapter, it'll be harder for 3rd party companies to power this 17' Unibody Laptop, unless they'll come up with an Exteral Female Plug, so that one could use Apple's Power supply to plug into. Thus another workaround.

Can someone help me on this, but since when has a typical charge cycle been 300? If that is the case, then how come my MacBook has been charged from nearly flat pretty much every night for the past two years and eight months? To my reckoning that's well over 900 recharges. My typical battery usage usually lasts me from about 7.30pm til about 11.30pm, just under four hours.

So am I missing something here? Am I very lucky?

It's not based on how many times you charge it, it's based on how many complete cycle counts you have. You can check System Profiler under Power to see the Cycle Count and condition of your battery.

I believe it's talking about charge cycles before it starts losing it's normal hold for charges.