A closer look at Apple's advanced notebook battery tech - Page 2

But I like porn. Especially on a transatlantic business flight.

1) Battery lasts longer than most people keep notebooks.
2) Battery lasts more than double most competitor's notebook batteries.
3) Extra batteries are probably one of the least popular accessories.
4) If people are unlikely to buy a 2nd battery for a notebook with 5 hours real world usage, then it stands to reason that people will be unlikely to buy a 2nd battery with 8 hours of real world usage.

This does not mean that an unlatching battery is not inconvenient, but you have to weigh the pros and cons. IF people don't change their batteries but would benefit from more juice, then the answer is pretty simple.

There are 2 distinct issues regarding the battery. First is that the battery is not designed for quick swapping. Instead, replacing the battery requires unscrewing the entire bottom panel. But this is also required for accessing the RAM or hard drive. So accessing the battery should be no more complicated than accessing the RAM and hard drive.

The much bigger issue is Apple requiring that battery replacements be done only at Apple service centers. Apple can claim a 5 year battery life, and Mac fanboys can claim that their Mac never breaks. Does that mean technicians in Apple service centers are just sitting around every day with nothing to do? There will certainly be batteries that need to be replaced a lot sooner. Many people don't realize that Mac laptop batteries are only covered by the original 1 year warranty. Purchasing AppleCare for the laptop does not extend coverage for the battery. So there will be situations where people need to pay for a new battery even though the laptop is still under warranty. Sure, some third parties will probably sell do-it-yourself replacement kits. But will these do-it-yourself kits void the warranty on the laptop?

Apple defenders can rationalize all they want about less space, fewer latches, etc. But none of that is a defense for Apple threatening to void people's warranty unless the battery is replaced by Apple. Apple does not void warranty if people install their own RAM, even though accessing RAM also requires removing the entire bottom panel of the laptop. Since the battery is right next to the RAM, why should Apple void warranty for one but not the other? Apple could provide instructions in the owner's manual for removing the panel and replacing the battery just like they do for the RAM, along with the usual disclaimer about damaged parts not being covered under warranty. Unless Apple means to tell us that installing RAM or a hard drive in new 17 inch MBP will void the warranty?

I should be ashamed of myself for planning ahead and not always being near a power outlet?

A "relatively huge" battery? I sure loves my new huger battery!

Up to 8 hrs, is like Starting From... Both are Marketing Approximations, and are likely to be rosier then reality... It depends on how many apps are running at the same time etc., type of usage varies, as well how bright the screen is, or if Blue Tooth is on etc.

But, even if the reality is TRUE 5-6 HOURS no matter how hard one is running this MBP Unibody 17', than it's still GREAT!

NYC to Tokyo is 14 hrs? How likely is one to WORK 6-8 of those hours, or to use those to watch 3 x 2hrs movies?

14hrs minus 6-8 of those hours = leaves 6 or 8 for SLEEP, and FOOD! People on those flight are gonna need both, and badly, to compensate for time change!

Also, if one is taking an EARLY flight, after not enough sleep, how eager would they be to WORK on that machine? They'd be trying to steal some SLEEP?

Or, if it's a LATE FLIGHT, they'd try to get in some SLEEP too!

Everywhere else, except for OURDOORS (Jungle, Desert) they'd have power in the car, bus, train, so that the batter is not an issue!!! But if it's serious OURDOORS, then they'd carry some PORTABLE POWER, Solar, or GENERATORS, so...

Up to 8 hrs = TRUE 5-6 HOURS no matter how hard one is running this MBP Unibody 17', than it's still GREAT!

Of course, after YEARS of always worrying about running out of battery power it understandable why people would be concerned... But, like I already mentioned earlier, SOMEONE will make PARTABLE EXTERNAL PACKS for this, and the problem solved for next time one is in the jungle!

The other Q is WHAT COUNTS AS A CYCLE! If one starts charging at 50% is that ONE CYCLE or HALF a CYCLE?

If HALF, like is supposedly the case with iPhone 3G, then this battery will last LONGER than 1000 : 365 (1 day = 1 Cycle) = 2.739726, and in THEORY, if 1/2 Cycle per 1 Day, it's 2.739726 x 2 = 5.479452 = Almost 5.5 YEARS?! So, even if it's 4 TRUE YEARS! - it's pretty good, right? Then, a few screws, and the SAME or BETTER BATTERY could go in for 1/2 the price, or at least LESS than what it is TODAY!!!

As USUAL, the Devil is in DETAILS, right!?

Also, with FW400 gone, we'd need Converter Cables. I am thinking about my Optura 30 MiniDV Camcorder (2004-2005)

What's the NEXT BIG THING? WiMax, LTE, 3G Built In? And how badly will they eat THIS battery, or whatever follows it?

Then we'll have another article here, and a few more INSULTS! Hey Mac users are supposed to be a PASSIONATE BUNCH, so I guess it's normal, but I'd still rather not see INSULTS !

HAPPY UPGRADES TO ALL !!!!

That isn't true! Apple's batteries have been covered for 2 years and even if you were outside of the 2 year replacement I've read that Apple was still replacing them.

If your battery is dying l before 1000 cycles they will replace it. They advertise a certain number of cycles and a legitimate lawsuit (for once) would easily be made if the battery failed to love up to their claims.

Hate to break it to you, but the MacBook Air sales are considered "lousy" at best. They had initial hype sales, but have seriously dropped off since. The Air is a failure like the cube.

This just sounds nonsensical to me.

Assuming Apple is right about the specs, (or as right as they were about previous specs), then you are complaining that after five years, you will lose maybe 2 or 3 days of time getting your battery replaced? And further that you somehow might not see this coming??? Remotely possible I guess, but it's silly to make out like this is some kind of big deal "problem."

IMO, all of your scenarios seem to involve stupidity on the part of the person using the computer.

In one, the user takes a five year old 17" laptop to a crucial presentation after not noticing that the battery is not charging right for weeks previous to the presentation.

In another you assume that a person has travelled to a hugely important meeting, brought their laptop, left the power adapter at home and that the meeting place has no laptops and no adapters.

In a third, you assume the user is so immersed in their work (presumably in a park or on a train cause they are using battery power only), that they don't see the many low power warnings, the attempts of the system to shut itself down before data is lost etc. and continue to work until the power is lost and their presentation is ruined???

None of these nightmare scenarios sound very plausible to me in any kind of real world situation unless the user is seriously stupid, or incompetent. In that case they pretty much deserve what they get.

The typical rule for travelling to another town or country to do a presentation for instance, is to take the presentation with you in multiple forms and to expect *not* to be able to use your own laptop as half the time the hall where you are speaking doesn't have the right hook-ups or power or the kid doing the tech support isn't there etc. To go willy-nilly to an important meeting, not check that you have a power cord, not have the presentation saved on a disk etc. is just crazy and doesn't qualify (to me) as an actual problem. At best it's a problem entirely of your own creation.

Five years from now, when the 17" laptop's battery is failing and your main scenario could take place, your presentation data is likely going to be in the cloud or maybe even on your phone. Heck I did a presentation last month where I was missing some crucial data I left at home. I used "Back to My Mac" to go into my home computer remotely and dragged the files over. What are the odds that even more fantastical methods are available in five years time?

They state that it is with WiFi and under normal use, but of course normal varies per user. We'll see actual usage from various sites when the notebook gets reviewed. Apple has been using this current realistic technique for measuring battery duration for some time now, and it's pretty accurate, with some sites reporting getting more than what Apple claims. Sony is apparently going to follow suit with the same battery measuring system. I forget the names of the systems that OEMs use, but I'll try to locate it.

A 14 hour flight would fare well as WiFi would be off and the screen would brightness could be turned down as the cabin is often dimmed for extended periods to accommodate sleepers. Unless you are an idiot who decides to play movies from a DVD or doesn't turn off any of the radios then I would expect at least 8 hours from the battery.


Cycles are prorated. If you only use 20% before you recharge, then every 5 charges will be a single cycle.

No, for filling up the landfill with useless toxic batteries and causing a hundred dodgy Chinese companies to produce said batteries. I was also tying the effort/environmental impact to a subjective assessment of how necessary a person's computing needs are in that situation. I'm guessing (and it's an educated guess), that the work is simply not as crucial as you are making out it is. If you just need to be entertained, airplanes do have in flight movies and so on, and there are those "book" things.

Now reply with how you are the *one* guy that actually safely recycles his batteries in the proper manor. I won't believe you but you can say it anyway.

You can also try "Those batteries would be manufactured whether I buy them or not." and "I'm sure the battery companies use environmentally sound practices." or the ever popular "If company A pollutes the environment it's not my problem just because I buy their products, it's theirs."

It's all for entertainment purposes. I travel for myself, not for work. Traveling has gobs of pollutions associated with it, I bet more than a single extra battery that eventually ends up in landfill every few years. I do have a book, it's called an eBook, yet another device with a battery.

But you are right, I have NEVER disposed of a CE battery in any way. I've either gotten a replacement from the company or I buy new equipment (usually every 2nd update cycles for notebooks) and pass on my old stuff. Do I care about the environment? Sure! Do I care enough not to travel or buy the toys I want? Newp!

I'm continually amazed that you are always here hanging out with us "morons"...

Are you sure Apple isn't beleaguered?

Thing is, Blue Ray is a flop in the US, firewire deleted on the MacBook was stupid but it looks like they ran out of physical room, MMS doesn't matter since I have email, but if you really want to you can use one the plethora of MMS to email gateways. You can hack the iPhone to do video and guess what - it sucks battery life and the quality stinks too. I do agree the lack of small laptops is annoying - I finally gave up waiting for a true replacement to my PB G4 12" and got a 15" MacBook Pro - I enjoy the power of the laptop, but I would like it better if it was the width of the keyboard (chop off 4"). Apple isn't perfect, but for me their overall experience is much better then any other manufacturers and it's why I use them. It's not blind allegiance or simple brand loyalty - I didn't buy one mac during the sucky performa days, and if they start screwing up again I will have no problem switching to something better if/when it ever appears.

So far that hasn't happened, so here I remain.

Citation needed - as far as I know Apple doesn't release individual product sales stats.

And it was such a failure that they refreshed it? Oh yeah, just like the cube

I'm going to chime in with my .02.

When I first heard this rumor I /facepalmed. I couldn't believe apple was going to install an internal battery and not a removable one. I was bitching with all the rest of them.

After reading some posts and thinking about it, I actually feel this is a smart move. It will prevent batteries from ending up in landfills in massive quantities, it will give the user a longer battery charge, it will slim down the notebook, and it can be a little more efficient in design and control.

With that being said, I want to make it clear to the nay-sayers on this I was on your side. I have had to replace 2 batteries on my mbp, 1 on my 867, and 1 on my 1.25. There has been issues with the battery expanding through the trackpad and ruining the whole laptop! I have got kernel panics from bad batteries, I have had batteries die out on me after 3 weeks. It sucks. I know. I've been there!

With all that being said... I don't think it will be a bad thing to have the battery be inside the laptop. These new cases are much easier to take apart than the old cases. Apple would probably gladly replace your battery for you under warranty if yours goes bad. Apple probably wouldn't charge much to replace it if it is out of warranty. The battery would be cheaper since it won't be in a casing.

I'm tech savy enough that I feel comfortable enough taking my laptop apart and putting a new battery in myself. I think a lot of you can accomplish that. All in all, as long as it's easy to swap when something bad happens, I'm all for it. I hope this post changes some opinions. Just stop and think about it for a bit. It's really not that bad of an idea.

The sales on mba have been sub-par. Nothing to write home about, yet not that bad. When I was at wwdc 08 I saw 2 the whole time I was there. The fact is, they are a secondary computer. That really is what they were designed for. Numbers or not, it's obvious the sales on the mba are lower than the rest of the machines.

Being lower than other Mac notebooks does mean they are "lousy at best" as Rain tries to paints despite having no proof or even any empirically derived logic to back up his claim.

The 17" MBP on Amazon is #175 in PC Laptops, while all the MBAs, including the original models, are ranked at #45, 77, 131, & 136. We'll see the 17" model up go considerably when they start selling later this month, but to say that MBA is flop when even the original MBAs are well above the only 17" MBP is just hyperbolic FUD.

I never called them a flop, nor "lousy at best". I was just pointing out they haven't been great. The last time the 17" macbook pro was updated was quite some time ago. And you really are comparing apples and oranges with the mba vs mbp 17. A better comparison would be the mb. I agree there is some thirst for it, but I just don't see it like I see all the others. I've already seen more unibody mbps more than I've seen mbas. It's all relative.

Rain stated the sales were "lousy at best" as I clearly stated above. Comparing the sales of the MBA and the 17" MBP on Amazon is more congruent as both are expensive, high-end Mac notebooks positioned toward a niche market. The 15" MBP and 13" MB are not niche Macs. I also pointed out that the 17" MBP sales ranking will increase after they are release, thus I included sales of the original MBA, too. Simply thinking that because both have a 13" display means that they should have equivalent sales is not logical.

It wasn't the displays being the reason. It was the whole computer. Spec to spec they are the most similar notebooks that apple releases across the line. I haven't seen many 17" mbps in my day other. I don't see how you can compare a 17" mbp and mba just because they are niche. They serve two completely different groups. In order to have a good result you need a common test bed / group. While I don't think they've been a total flop, I don't think they were what apple was expecting them to be. They have been non-existant here. I'd love to see a #'s breakdown.

Didn't see the Rain part.

The specs aren't very similar between the MBA and MB. The MBA's Small Form Factor CPU costs more than the MB's. The high-end MB's 2.4GHz is $241, while the MBA's 1.6GHz is $284 and the 1.86GHz is $316. Since Apple is clearly buying a lot more of the MB's CPUs, the price will have even more of a difference as those prices are for lots of 1000. The display on the MB and MBA are also very different. Only the size is the same.

The point was that people seem to be clamoring for a 17" MBP, while others (maybe the same people) are calling the MBA a bad decision akin to the Cube, yet the sales currently show the MBA beating the 17" MBP by a large margin. Once the 17" MBP comes out and the initial rush has subsided will we find it still behind the MBA which is currently ranked at #46, which isn't bad for a "complete failure" by Apple?

True, I don't have any solid stats by Apple, just empirical data collected by talking to the 3 Apple resellers in our area and an employee at the Apple store. That, and the numerous posts i've read on here by people who sell mac hardware, and tones of blogs, articles in magazines, websites, annalists, and tech tv programs. Then the observation that I don't see them anywhere at 'hotspots' like coffee shops and internet lounges, the library, on the ferries.

"lousy at best" was a term my Apple-go-to sales guy used. He said he's sold 3, and 1 was returned. That was a few weeks before Christmas.

Sorry, but I don't need to be spoon fed my information from Apple and worship it as doctrine. I trust my observations, and they have been pretty dead on for the last few decades. Just like when people here laughed when I said Appl would dip below $90 a share this last fall... Glad I sold in the $180's.

But hey... keep listening to the 'propaganda' marketing. I'll take your money.


Sorry... my reality distortion field failed there...

EVERYTHING APPLE DOES IS PERFECTION AND THEY ARE GODS. *obey obey obey

I am a proud owner of the last revision (2007 series) of the MBP 15"
and my 'removable-battery' just goes dead like 7 min after a full charge
and when i took it to apple they lQQKed at it and told me "too bad, sorry i can't help you; you have recycled your battery over 300 times and we can't give you a new one" (I also pruchased $350. AppleCare) and when i purchased it in dec 2007 it never held a 3 plus hr charge so i don't trust apple or AI with that 8hr crap and new tech BS until i see it... go TECH STUD RIGHT ON MAN

WTF Apple..you guys are starting to fall too far from the tree... now..

Who's insulting? I'm not insulting and it's a pitty you take it that way - are you 101% fan boy or something? Was it something else I mentioned perhaps?

Nonetheless, Apple could release better batteries, or better yet, software that allows the users to dethrottle the GPU/CPU when all they are doing is browsing the web. You could get 2+ hours buy reducing the GPU by 50% and CPU by 60+ if not 3 hours.

Think about it. When you're browsing the web, writing the next screen play, using iWork or word, you don't need a lot of power - this is the direction they should go with software if they can't create better batteries. In fact, I just read an article that states (i.e.) a Macbook Pro has lots of wasted space in the battery itself. Additionally, if they wanted to, they could also harness a battery strip, non removable, that goes around the whole case (bottom).

By the way, anyone know where to submit a patent idea for Apple laptops - I have some really good ideas for making the MB Pro line a workstation power house for those times when plugged in.

Thanks

That isn't empirical, that is here-say.

That's right! Taking functionality away is innovation. I can't wait for them top take away that pesky screen. And the keyboard. Being an Apple, it will know what I want just by me laying on my hands. And Steve's wisdom will flow though my palms... Nirvana!

Ignoring the slights of "incompetence" and "Stupidity" (I am neither) - Sure - I accept that the examples I used were "hard case" examples - but thats when you notice the lack of flexibility the most - and I ask in return:
1) When was the last time that "Up to 8 hours" actually translatable into anywhere near 8 hours use at normal brightness, wifi and bluetooth on etc
2) Why lose flexibility of swappable batteries? I mean if I accept the premise that the examples I used were extreme cases - even so - why restrict yourself to having to plug in every 5 hours or so. I just dont understand why it was a neccessary direction to take - when it seems that these batteries - with a little inguineuity on apples' behalf (and lets face it they are famed for it) - they could have turned this 8 hour battery into a removable 8 hour battery...?

I'm just ready for the Macbooks and 15" Macbook Pros to have this technology in them.

I have had 3 different notebook computers of my own in my lifetime and I have never bought an extra battery for any of them. Who is really going to go that long without any access to a power source? Especially now that you can go up to 8 hours on a single charge.

The Apple fanboys defending fixed internal batteries were also the ones defending the original iMac's round hockey puck mouse, claiming how much superior it was to a regular mouse. These people have never criticized a single thing that Apple does. Whatever Apple does is always 100% right. Apple fanboys were also the ones claiming:

There will be no video iPod. Nobody wants to watch video on an iPod.

Apple will not make a cell phone.

Nobody needs native third party applications on the iPhone. Web apps are really, really sweet.

Macs never crash, so who cares about preemptive multitasking or memory protection?

Who needs automatic memory allocation on the Mac? Just click Get Info and change the number yourself.

Apple will never switch to Intel processors.

8 "marketing hours" is not enough to warrant making the battery unremovable. A nonremovable battery needs need to hit double digit real usage hours, like 12-18 before Apple can convince people who are not Apple fanboys.

Is Apple now manufacturing batteries, replacing Sony? If so, then Apple owns the technology, but also owns the risk of failure and recall? If Apple is making the batteries, does their design culture reduce the chance of latent defects, or does their lack of experience increase the risk?

http://www.apple.com/batteries/notebooks.html

"The battery in the 17-inch MacBook Pro should be replaced only by an Apple Authorized Service Provider."

So while some people may be able to do it themselves, Apple won't let them do it without voiding their warranty. As long as Apple voids the warranty for do-it-yourself battery replacement, it means that people are effectively unable to replace the battery. If Apple were to remove this restriction and provide instructions for do-it-yourself battery replacement, then your attempt at sarcasm would not look so Apple fanboy-ish.

Interesting. The battery on my 15" Macbook Pro just died at 220 cycles. If I unplugged it at 100% charge it would last for about 10 minutes, then die. The Genius told me that 200 was the limit and I needed to buy a new one.

True, but the last several times I've flown and thought I would top off my laptop at the airport, I found hundreds of people sitting on the floor of every single outlet in every gate. Unless you fly very early morning or very late night, it's hard to find a free outlet.

The Hockey puck mouse sucked

I defend the internal battery.

To be fair to this fellow, the 17 MBP battery has not really been tested out yet. I'll reserve judgement until people put this battery through real world use. Hopefully we can get a realistic 5 to 6 hours worth of power and hopefully the battery will remain healthy for at least 3 years.

funny I have like 339 cycles on my macbook and still hold a full charge, but I make sure to take good care of my battery.

Stop being so snobby. There are a lot of professionals who aren't in the amazon rain forest all day and thus are close to a power outlet SOMETIME during an 8-hour stint. I'd venture to say most. And having the extra battery life is probably way, way more valuable to them than the ability to carry around 30 pounds worth of extra batteries to get it to 12 hours.

Apple can't be all things to all people. Until they license their systems, we're stuck with their decisions. And this one seems like a really good one for Apple and most of their users. Yes, there will be part of the market that is under-served by this decision, but it's still the right call.

No need to be fair to teckstud. You may reserve judgement on the battery issue but young mr teckie sure wont. He thinks just about everyone visiting this forum is a moron. He complains wildly and incessantly about most things Apple do and produce. In fact his complaints closely mirror standard Windows fundamentalist views. The day he crosses over he will be a much happier person.

No, it needs 12-18 to convince people who are Apple bashers. Practical folks will line up for this thing. You don't have to be an "Apple fanboy" to see the value in 50% more capacity and 3x the lifetime in a smaller enclosure, in exchange for having to plug in at least once during the workday.