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A closer look at Apple's advanced notebook battery tech - Page 3

post #81 of 167
1/7/09 at 7:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar

Apple won't let them do it without voiding their warranty.

Um, the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975 might have something to say about that (like, no they can't void your warranty just for upgrading with 3rd party parts).

Next!
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post #82 of 167
1/7/09 at 7:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Booga View Post

Apple can't be all things to all people. Until they license their systems, we're stuck with their decisions. And this one seems like a really good one for Apple and most of their users. Yes, there will be part of the market that is under-served by this decision, but it's still the right call.

Exactimo! Apple has a narrow product range and they spend a lot of effort making these suit the majority of users. If your needs really aren't served then go buy another product. It is OK to own a PC if it serves you better. It won't make you less of a person or less of an Apple fan. It is also OK to own a PC AND a Mac.
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post #83 of 167
1/7/09 at 7:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rain View Post

Sorry, but I don't need to be spoon fed my information from Apple and worship it as doctrine. I trust my observations

I guess the amazon sales numbers posted earlier in the thread were too inconvenient for you

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Sorry... my reality distortion field failed there...

Funny, it seems to be working just fine.

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EVERYTHING APPLE DOES IS PERFECTION AND THEY ARE GODS. *obey obey obey

The only thing worse then a rabid fanboy is a rabid anti-fanboy
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post #84 of 167
1/7/09 at 7:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

Here's a thought ...

I don't really believe these folks really even exist, but if there *are* people out there (as some people here are arguing), that need to have three or even four batteries for their laptops and swap them back and forth ....

When I had my 17" MacBook Pro, I shelled out for an additional two batteries. I found the MacBook Pro's real-world lifespan to fall well short of Apples quoted lifespan.

But those spare batteries spent most of their time in my backpack. I personally found that whenever the battery got low, it was just as easy to plug the MBP into the wall as it was to swap out the battery. That way I always had three fully charged batteries.

So shelling out for additional batteries was a complete waste of time for me. Additional power adapters now that's a different story. You can never have too many power adapters!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

This kind of gobbling up of resources and environmental abuse, just so you can (likely) watch porn on your transatlantic business flight, is nothing to be proud of at all.

Watching porn on a transatlantic business flight that's the dream, isn't it?
OK, can I have my matte Apple display, now?
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OK, can I have my matte Apple display, now?
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post #85 of 167
1/7/09 at 7:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocNo42 View Post

Um, the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975 might have something to say about that (like, no they can't void your warranty just for upgrading with 3rd party parts).

Next!

I would rather see an official statement from Apple stating that do-it-yourself battery replacement will not void the laptop's warranty. But instead, all they have is:

http://www.apple.com/batteries/notebooks.html

"The battery in the 17-inch MacBook Pro should be replaced only by an Apple Authorized Service Provider."

Next!
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post #86 of 167
1/7/09 at 8:05am
This whole notion of not being able to replace one's battery is what is most appalling. Would you buy a car if the hood was sealed shut and you could not get access? If it were made by Apple I suppose many on here would -regardless. The more that is taken away from one for the sake of design (read thinness) is insane! What's next - no access to anything at all?

By the way- CES was featured on the Today show with the banner headline that "Smaller is the new Bigger"- in everything electronics. This surely is way off that trend for such a public presentation. Why did they need to feature this 17" at the keynote when it was already more or less announced last fall? I guess they are saving the best for later.
Please give us a small light laptop already.
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post #87 of 167
1/7/09 at 8:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JupiterOne View Post

True, but the last several times I've flown and thought I would top off my laptop at the airport, I found hundreds of people sitting on the floor of every single outlet in every gate. Unless you fly very early morning or very late night, it's hard to find a free outlet.

...which is why I always care one of these in my laptop bag. It's saved me numerous times at the airport (and those of others, as I have offered up the use of it to people in need of an outlet).
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post #88 of 167
1/7/09 at 8:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

What's next - no access to anything at all?

Eventually, I imagine all computers will be that way. We're already there for many consumer electronics and I don't see why the PC won't be there too eventually.

I have to say, I'm not concerned.
A good brain ain't diddly if you don't have the facts
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A good brain ain't diddly if you don't have the facts
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post #89 of 167
1/7/09 at 8:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flounder View Post

Eventually, I imagine all computers will be that way. We're already there for many consumer electronics and I don't see why the PC won't be there too eventually.

Not true at all. All cameras and most phones have expandable memory and replaceable batteries. Only Apple's iPhone doesn't. Name me some that don't as well and some cameras please. And name some other PC laptops for that matter. Everything and anything that is sealed shut has no need to be opened in the first place. Why would you need to open a DVD player, etc, etc. etc? And those are usually just screwed shut for easy repair access anyway.
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post #90 of 167
1/7/09 at 8:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cggr View Post

I have had to buy 2 iphones just so that I can make it through the day using the iphone as my primary phone.

Have you looked at the Mophie Juicebox? Cheaper than a second phone.
Journalism is publishing what someone doesn't want us to know; the rest is propaganda.
-Horacio Verbitsky (el perro), journalist (b. 1942)
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Journalism is publishing what someone doesn't want us to know; the rest is propaganda.
-Horacio Verbitsky (el perro), journalist (b. 1942)
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post #91 of 167
1/7/09 at 8:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by merdhead View Post

I think I'm going to puke. Is AI just a mouthpiece for Apple hype?

It's a bigger, non-removable, battery. The "Adaptive Charging" gives you better performance on cycling, but 300 is a seriously low-ball figure. Polymer batteries have been around forever and are common. On the other hand, no replaceable battery is a serious problem for many people.

If you really want to see something new, look at Toshiba's new Li-Ion batteries, which have serious performance.

Did you count how many time you recharged your last battery before it was considered dead? I would gladly take an 8 hour battery, non-removable option, especially since it only costs $179 to replace it! I paid about $129 for my PowerBook G4 battery that barely lasts beyond 3 hours! Get over yourself.
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post #92 of 167
1/7/09 at 8:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Messiah View Post

When I had my 17" MacBook Pro, I shelled out for an additional two batteries. I found the MacBook Pro's real-world lifespan to fall well short of Apples quoted lifespan.

I agree. I have a first-gen MBP and I've never received more than 2.5 hours on a single battery. I have a spare, but it's almost never out of my bag. I have (once) swapped it on a flight, but even on a twelve-hour flight I find I don't really need (or want) to spend much time on my computer. I'd rather watch a movie, read, get up every few hours and walk around and freshen up, and rest.
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post #93 of 167
1/7/09 at 8:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

You must like to be a slave to Apple. Who buys a laptop without a removeable battery?
No swappable battery= NO SALE.

All you do is complain about EVERYTHING Apple does! You are clueless as always. The battery can be replaced for $179. MacBook Air owners are happy with the non-removable battery. iPod and iPhone owners are happy. I have one battery for my PowerBook. I have replaced it once, but I have no need for a spare battery.
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post #94 of 167
1/7/09 at 8:32am
And in 30 years or something, everyone will say "why would I need to open a computer?" That is already the attitude of a large segment of the public, and that percentage will only increase.

There will always be the technological "studs" out there who crack things open, and that's a good thing, but for the vast majority, no one will wonder what's going on in there or give it a second thought.
A good brain ain't diddly if you don't have the facts
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A good brain ain't diddly if you don't have the facts
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post #95 of 167
1/7/09 at 8:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Try wearing a turbine or reading from ....

Would that be a General Electric Turbine or a Rolls Royce Turbine? And wouldn't the jet wash mess up the hair of the woman sitting behind you??!?!?

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post #96 of 167
1/7/09 at 8:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Booga View Post

No, it needs 12-18 to convince people who are Apple bashers. Practical folks will line up for this thing. You don't have to be an "Apple fanboy" to see the value in 50% more capacity and 3x the lifetime in a smaller enclosure, in exchange for having to plug in at least once during the workday.

Because Apple can survive off a fixed list of customers for all time to come, without ever needing to add more customers. And as current Apple fans start retiring or dying, who is going to replace them?
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post #97 of 167
1/7/09 at 8:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hillstones View Post

All you do is complain about EVERYTHING Apple does! You are clueless as always. The battery can be replaced for $179. MacBook Air owners are happy with the non-removable battery. iPod and iPhone owners are happy. I have one battery for my PowerBook. I have replaced it once, but I have no need for a spare battery.

You're clueless! Of course MacBook Air owners are happy!!
But what about everybody else who refuses to buy for that very reason (and others)? Sales have stalled- no?
Just because you don't need a spare doesn't mean everyone else doesn't as well.
And I don't complain about everything Apple does- I love my iPod Touch even without expandable storage or replaceable battery!
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post #98 of 167
1/7/09 at 8:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flounder View Post

And in 30 years or something, everyone will say "why would I need to open a computer?" That is already the attitude of a large segment of the public, and that percentage will only increase.

Then that large segment of the public better get used to having egg smeared all over their faces. Before Apple introduced the new unibody 15 inch laptops, Mac users, both customers and service professionals, were complaining about the difficulty of servicing Apple laptops and replacing things such as the hard drive. Of course, Apple fanboys defended the difficulty of access with arguments like "size and weight" or "who needs to open a laptop?". Then Apple introduced the new 15 inch MacBook Pro which is both thinner and easier to access.

When people complained about iPods not being able to play video, it was Apple fanboys who responded with: "Why does anyone want a video iPod? Just buy a 12 inch Powerbook G4."

When people complained about third party developers not being able to create native applications for the iPhone, it was Apple fanboys who shot down these complaints with rationalizations like "security", "quality control", "who needs native third party applications?" and "web apps are really, really sweet".

When Mac users complained about having to manually adjust memory settings in System 7 through 9, it was Apple fanboys who dismissed these complaints with "Who needs dynamic memory allocation? Just click Get Info and change the number yourself".
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post #99 of 167
1/7/09 at 8:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Not true at all. All cameras and most phones have expandable memory and replaceable batteries. Only Apple's iPhone doesn't.

And that prove that people don't care about replaceable batteries as much as you think. Just check the iPhone and iPod sales figures. Seriously, you need to look behind what you want and look at the whole picture. Many people don't care. For those who care, Apple sells the 15" MBP and 13" MB with replaceable battery. You didn't like the new MB and MBP because of their glossy displays and lack of FW for the 13" but they are at No. 6, 14, and 16 on Amazon best selling laptops.

I am sure that Apple is not throwing random decisions with billions of dollars at stake. It seems to me that Apple decision worked good so far and this prove that they are based on market research and not on reading blogs sites or one person preferences.

It is clear that the 17" MBP is not made specific group of people and you've made it cleat that you are not part of that group by asking for smaller laptop. So let's leave those people decide when they review it.
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post #100 of 167
1/7/09 at 8:56am
What evidence do you have that sales have stalled?

Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

You're clueless! Of course MacBook Air owners are happy!!
But what about everybody else who refuses to buy for that reason (and others)? Sales have stalled- no?
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post #101 of 167
1/7/09 at 9:00am
That's a whole lotta' generalization going on there.

I cannot recall a lot of complaints about the iPod not being able to play video. Its a music player I cannot remember many people expecting or demanding that it play video. It wasn't as if that was all that common at the time.

Pretty much everyone complained about the iPhone not having native apps. Many of us argued that it would take some time for Apple to develop the development framework. Which turned out to be more true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post

When people complained about iPods not being able to play video, it was Apple fanboys who responded with: "Why does anyone want a video iPod? Just buy a 12 inch Powerbook G4."

When people complained about third party developers not being able to create native applications for the iPhone, it was Apple fanboys who shot down these complaints with rationalizations like "security", "quality control", "who needs native third party applications?" and "web apps are really, really sweet".

When Mac users complained about having to manually adjust memory settings in System 7 through 9, it was Apple fanboys who dismissed these complaints with "Who needs dynamic memory allocation? Just click Get Info and change the number yourself".
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post #102 of 167
1/7/09 at 9:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

This whole notion of not being able to replace one's battery is what is most appalling. Would you buy a car if the hood was sealed shut and you could not get access? If it were made by Apple I suppose many on here would -regardless. The more that is taken away from one for the sake of design (read thinness) is insane! What's next - no access to anything at all?

Many people lament the fact that cars have become almost impossible to work on by average Joe. Try tuning a modern car. Yes, you can change the battery and other consumables but for the most part people go to a pro place to do the simplest of things. I am not saying it is a good thing but I have never heard of anybody not buying a car because they needed a special tool to change the fan belt. And I think this is the point here - you may want to change the battery but the vast majority of users wont. Macs used to be ridiculed for not offering expansion possibilities. The fact is that the vast majority of people never upgrade and of the ones that do only do it once - at the point of purchase. Of the upgrades carried out post purchase RAM is the only relevant one for normal users. Heavy duty users, gamers, video and graphics pros etc will use the very upgradable MacPro, or alternatively a cheaper option such as Dell, or I guess, Psystar.
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post #103 of 167
1/7/09 at 9:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

And that prove that people don't care about replaceable batteries as much as you think. Just check the iPhone and iPod sales figures. Seriously, you need to look behind what you want and look at the whole picture. Many people don't care. For those who care, Apple sells the 15" MBP and 13" MB with replaceable battery. You didn't like the new MB and MBP because of their glossy displays and lack of FW for the 13" but they are at No. 6, 14, and 16 on Amazon best selling laptops.

I.

What does that prove? People voted for George W Bush twice.
SO why is the an antiglare option now ?
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post #104 of 167
1/7/09 at 9:13am
In the video it appeared to suggest that the CPU was controlling the Adaptive Charging process. To me this means that it would be best to charge the battery while the computer is running otherwise the CPU would not be available. What happens when you charge the battery with the computer turned off?

Thanks for any details.

m

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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post #105 of 167
1/7/09 at 9:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

What does that prove? People voted for George W Bush twice.
SO why is the an antiglare option now ?

Do you seriously believe that Apple included antiglare option because you wanted it?! Why do you think Apple ask those who buy their products to fill out online surveys? It is all about market research and sales figures. I am sure that Apple decided to include antiglare option because high number of 17" MBP with matte screen were sold compared to glossy and because based on their research those who buy the 17" prefer the antiglare option.

What George Bush has to do with iPhone and iPod sales figures?! Please keep it relevant instead of throwing politics into the subject.
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post #106 of 167
1/7/09 at 9:23am
snappy article once you get past the film on top...
Good for <del>wiki</del>OpenLeaks
<del>wiki</del>OpenLeaks for Good
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Good for <del>wiki</del>OpenLeaks
<del>wiki</del>OpenLeaks for Good
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post #107 of 167
1/7/09 at 9:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by anilsudhakaran View Post

Take your swappable battery and shove it up your filthy stinking A'HOLE.

Hello fanboy - I see you have no opportunity for getting laid anytime soon and have lots of free time, so let me ask you something. There's been more than 2 battery recalls in the last generation of Macbooks. My own REMOVABLE battery was (conveniently) swapped by Apple at one of their stores. No muss no fuss.

Think they'll be any fuss when the next recall occurs? Or are you just hoping they'll bulge through the whole of the laptop instead of the battery case, or just burst into flames as users decide taking it in for battery-surgery is more of a hastle than ignoring the recall notices.

Don't worry - reality won't impede in your fantasy so don't pay the real-world examples any mind. Because it would unrealistically be suggesting you have one. Knee-jerk reflexes? Oh yes - you have plenty of that. A mind? Of course not.
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post #108 of 167
1/7/09 at 10:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorBenway View Post

... There's been more than 2 battery recalls in the last generation of Macbooks. My own REMOVABLE battery was (conveniently) swapped by Apple at one of their stores. No muss no fuss.

Think they'll be any fuss when the next recall occurs? ...

I hadn't thought of that. I would vastly prefer a longer lasting built-in battery on my MacBook Pro, but a mass recall would be a major problem for a lot of users and for Apple. On the other hand, I think thebattery technology they're using is supposed to have those problems solved (famous last words).
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post #109 of 167
1/7/09 at 10:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaarrrgggh View Post

As a stockholder, I sure hope Apple can find a compromise between being "cheap" and "high end" for the next few years. Based on the keynote, they sold 2.3MM macs this past quarter, which was a little lower than I hoped, but seemingly in-line with estimates.

It will be hard to maintain sales and profits if the entire portfolio is biased to the high end.

The MacBook is mid-range. The MacBook Pros are high-end. MacBooks sell very well.

As Steve Jobs has stated, Apple does NOT make junk. The majority of generic PC laptops are junk.


Macintosh: It just WORKS!
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Macintosh: It just WORKS!
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post #110 of 167
1/7/09 at 10:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by federmoose View Post

Here's the thing though... the battery is replaceable, you just need a screwdriver. So you cary one extra battery (2 batteries * 8h = 16h) and a screwdriver... you can replace it on an airplane just fine.

You can't even take water on a plane, do you think they'll let you take a screwdriver?
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post #111 of 167
1/7/09 at 10:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by macologist View Post

Only on select planes, and mostly not in coach, except for a few seats, that one has to reserve ahead of time. First Class is easier, but most people don't fly that way.

Are you really going to use a 17" laptop in coach? I have a hard enough time with a 14"!
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post #112 of 167
1/7/09 at 10:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

Do you seriously believe that Apple included antiglare option because you wanted it?! Why do you think Apple ask those who buy their products to fill out online surveys? It is all about market research and sales figures. I am sure that Apple decided to include antiglare option because high number of 17" MBP with matte screen were sold compared to glossy and because based on their research those who buy the 17" prefer the antiglare option.

What George Bush has to do with iPhone and iPod sales figures?! Please keep it relevant instead of throwing politics into the subject.

I figured the matte option could be a slightly underhanded upsell option.

And to those saying "how come the 15" MBP has the removable battery?" Space, obviously.

The 17" enclosure is big enough to make the new batter 8 hours - which, a couple years ago Steve Jobs said was their goal, to make a battery that will last a full work day - and a non-removable batter in the 15" that is only 6 or 7 hours wasn't desirable.

Last point: if the battery lasts for 1000 cycles and has a long 8 hour charge (i'm assuming these numbers are accurate), then it should last, even if you recharcge every single day, over 3 years, which for someone who is paying for a 17" Pro machine and working s much, would make the machine outdated anyway.

I understand for some people this new move is a detriment, but how can computers possibly move forward without someone (company) taking a chance on INNOVATION. Sometimes innovation fails, sometimes it succeeds, but without it we would still be using MS DOS.
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post #113 of 167
1/7/09 at 10:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I would like to a least have the option to buy an external MagSafe connected battery from Apple or an approved 3rd-party, but that isn't too much of a big deal as 8 hours covers most international flights.

This is definitely the way to go. The only possible complaint is that an external battery might sometimes be in the way when in a tight place. But I doubt that's any real issue.
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post #114 of 167
1/7/09 at 11:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denton View Post

This is definitely the way to go. The only possible complaint is that an external battery might sometimes be in the way when in a tight place. But I doubt that's any real issue.

How about various length external batteries for the widths of the current models, so they can sit under the back of the notebooks? But having enough cord so they can also sit behind the notebook for those that don't want them propped up, which I don't care for. Having a MagSafe power pass-through would also be nice so you can charge both batteries at the same time off the same power cord.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #115 of 167
1/7/09 at 11:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by merdhead View Post

That's right! Taking functionality away is innovation. I can't wait for them top take away that pesky screen. And the keyboard. Being an Apple, it will know what I want just by me laying on my hands. And Steve's wisdom will flow though my palms... Nirvana!

By your shortsighted defintion DVD was not innovative because they didn't have the ability to record live TV shows, which VHS had.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #116 of 167
1/7/09 at 11:14am
I'm just curious how hard, if it is even possible, to design a lithium-polymer battery that would be user replacable?

And, if it is possible, how long before Dell, HP, etc. do indeed design one.
just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
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just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
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post #117 of 167
1/7/09 at 11:30am
If Apple can pull a similar trick on the Macbook -- getting the battery-life to 8 hours -- by making the battery a fixed internal, I'm all for it. I've twice replaced my battery on my notebook, which was obviously easy, but I've also replaced the fan and the hinge. Operating on a notebook once per year is not a big deal.

For those who want second (third?) batteries, external batteries will work just as well as swapping a removable internal battery. While this does create a little more clutter around the notebook, it's a fine compromise as the percentage of users with second batteries is probably not above 10%. At the consumer end of the spectrum, this ratio may not even be 1%. I bet this gamble will pay-off big for Apple.

I also like the idea that the extended lifetime of the battery will lessen the number of batteries that must be disposed of.

All around, I'm quite content with the direction that Apple is taking with the batteries. As someone else pointed out, this is the way that the internals of cars have gone and people still buy them because the performance trade off is so much better. It'll be the same with computers.
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post #118 of 167
1/7/09 at 11:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

How about various length external batteries for the widths of the current models, so they can sit under the back of the notebooks? But having enough cord so they can also sit behind the notebook for those that don't want them propped up, which I don't care for. Having a MagSafe power pass-through would also be nice so you can charge both batteries at the same time off the same power cord.

I think that having a pass-through so one could charge the external while plugged in would be a good idea. I wonder if the amount of power delivered would need to be higher in this case (charging the external and internal batteries, while also powering the notebook).
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post #119 of 167
1/7/09 at 11:50am
Quote:
The 40% larger battery used in the 17" MacBook Pro gives it up to 8 hours of life, making it far more practically useful than a conventional 5 hour replaceable battery that requires also carrying a separate spare battery, and probably also an external charger.

This is just silly. Why carry an external charger if you have an extra battery? You wouldn't. You WOULD however carry a charger if you had a non-replaceable battery, as in these new MBP 17s. So calling a sealed battery "far more practically useful" is nonsense.

Oh, and Apple could absolutely make the 13" and 15" last 8 hours on their replaceable batteries, but they don't because of the weight trade off. Remember how they REDUCED the watt hours on the new batteries compared to the old? Take out the battery of a 13" unibody and the battery is only half full of cells, just feel the weight distribution! Apple made compromises to get the new 13" down to 4.5lbs (so they could claim ".5lbs less than previous gen!") but this was at the expense of a real advance in battery life. With the 17" they have enough room and latitude on the weight issue that they can use a battery that is actually FULL of cells.
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post #120 of 167
1/7/09 at 11:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiimamac View Post

new revolutionary batteries now then why don't they sell them for all their products? It should be a priority for all Macbooks don't you think?a

I thought of that, and my speculation on that would be that Apple might be testing the waters. It might be a great idea but you never know what people will really buy, and maybe it's a bit of a risk, so they only put it in the line that "pros" buy, leaving it to them to "understand" how great an idea this is. As the article states, the "problem" of not having a removable battery will certainly be solved by 3rd parties in the coming years when replacements are needed.
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