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iTunes DRM-free, but upgrading comes with strings attached - Page 2

post #41 of 127
I going to be asked to pay 30¢ to convert a song for which I already paid 99¢ into a song that iTunes will then be selling for only 60¢? It takes some serious chutzpah to ask your customers to do that. I think even the Federal bailout recipients might be embarrassed to ask that of their customers!
post #42 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by YodaMac View Post

Not sure what all the fuss is about.

The only reason to upgrade is if you plan on illegally sharing your music with other people, right?

If your music has played fine on your iPod and Mac all this time - it still will.

If you're a true audiophile (nut), then you'd be buying physical media and ripping your own. Those few bits improvement aren't going to make your iPod sound any better in the car or jogging through noisy streets anyways, right?

I have NEVER had an issue with DRM in all the years I've been using iTunes. So what's the fuss all about?

You must be one of those dumb Star Wars nerds.
post #43 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by YodaMac View Post

Not sure what all the fuss is about.

The only reason to upgrade is if you plan on illegally sharing your music with other people, right?

If your music has played fine on your iPod and Mac all this time - it still will.

If you're a true audiophile (nut), then you'd be buying physical media and ripping your own. Those few bits improvement aren't going to make your iPod sound any better in the car or jogging through noisy streets anyways, right?

I have NEVER had an issue with DRM in all the years I've been using iTunes. So what's the fuss all about?

I want to do it to more easily burn MP3 disks for my car stereo.
post #44 of 127
I have mixed feelings. On one side, I'm celebrating recovering some music - as I unfortunately erased my first few purchases long ago.

On the other, I'm paying to upgrade every "free single of the week" I downloaded for the past several years, half of which were crap?

Hmm...

Of course it really isn't all that much for me yet: $29.25 currently for 93 songs (71 songs, 4 albums, 6 music videos).

I'm sort of curious how high that'll go. Thus why I haven't upgraded yet.
post #45 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by YodaMac View Post

Not sure what all the fuss is about.

The only reason to upgrade is if you plan on illegally sharing your music with other people, right?

If your music has played fine on your iPod and Mac all this time - it still will.

If you're a true audiophile (nut), then you'd be buying physical media and ripping your own. Those few bits improvement aren't going to make your iPod sound any better in the car or jogging through noisy streets anyways, right?

I have NEVER had an issue with DRM in all the years I've been using iTunes. So what's the fuss all about?

Well, I haven't had any "problems" but:

1. No, if illegally sharing were my intent, why would I bother with iTunes?
2. Your name is still embedded into the DRM-free purchased files.
3. I don't consider myself an audiophile, but while not for all, for a good many songs the difference between 128 and 256 is not only there, it is extraordinary. A lot of music that sounded so "meh" before again becomes new and sounds so clear.
4. While I have been since '93 an Apple nut, I don't like being tied to anyone. I like just knowing I could go elsewhere. DRM in place doesn't afford me that much.
post #46 of 127
I expect we'll get an album by album, song by song rate soon. Before this recent change this was how it was offered. I'm not inclined to click the Buy button when it's $104.99 and counting.

Frankly though I don't think I can hear the difference between AAC 256 and DRMed tracked burned to CD and reripped.
post #47 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by YodaMac View Post

Not sure what all the fuss is about.

The only reason to upgrade is if you plan on illegally sharing your music with other people, right?

If your music has played fine on your iPod and Mac all this time - it still will.

If you're a true audiophile (nut), then you'd be buying physical media and ripping your own. Those few bits improvement aren't going to make your iPod sound any better in the car or jogging through noisy streets anyways, right?

I have NEVER had an issue with DRM in all the years I've been using iTunes. So what's the fuss all about?

DRM free is good. Period. What happens to your collection when the iTunes DRM Authentication servers go offline (like Walmart's did)? I said when because it will happen. Maybe not anytime soon, but it WILL happen.

DRM is also what (until now) prevented you from streaming your DRM'd content over the internet (not your LAN), or playing it on a non-Apple device (like a Squeezebox).

FYI - I can tell the difference between 128 and 256 kbps with a decent pair of headphones in a relatively quiet environment. it's not a "few bits" it's double.

My only gripe is that I want the updates to be based on my local library, not what Apple knows I bought.
post #48 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by finnwhite View Post

Something I noticed (and I suppose it makes sense)...

I'm an American but I was living in Australia when iTMS came out. Actually it was out for quite a while in the US before it came to AUS, and I used my US credit to purchase from the US store (not having really read that part in the T&C that says you can't do this), and after a few purchases I bought a new Mac in AUS, and as part of the initial setup associated my Apple ID with my Aussie computer somehow from there Apple worked out I was in breach and shut down my access to those songs! I was frustrated, but as it was only a couple songs I lived through it.

Eventually iTMS came to Australia, though I think even to this day not all the major labels participate, meaning the catalog is more limited. And I purchased a good number of tracks from the AUS store. I recently moved back to the US, and switched stores. I notice that none of the songs I purchased from the AUS store appear on my upgrade list, even though many of those albums are also available in the US store. AND, those long lost songs ARE there.

So that tells me a few things, which may be well known to others and quite logical. iTunes Plus is country specific. iTMS in general might be always country specific, even if a given album is available in multiple countries, buying it in one does not grant rights to it in another (and maybe this is due to different labels or subsidiaries of labels controlling rights in different countries).

I am certain I am not the only totally legit multi-country person around (dual citizen), and it will only become more common. I wonder when the infrastructure of iTMS or indeed all digital media will accommodate this scenario....

for anyone who's asking about IT+ in other countries.. it's supposed to be available in all stores

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1711

"In what countries is iTunes Plus available?
iTunes Plus is available in all countries that have an iTunes Store."
post #49 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by milkmage View Post

FYI - I can tell the difference between 128 and 256 kbps with a decent pair of headphones in a relatively quiet environment. it's not a "few bits" it's double.

My only gripe is that I want the updates to be based on my local library, not what Apple knows I bought.

I can tell the difference between 128 and 256 on a $15 pair of headphones. I agree, it's there. People seem to forget we're all different; our choice of music and our hearing.

Of course your gripe is actually my greatest upside. Although few, I had lost some music early on and this is allowing me to recover it.
post #50 of 127
While I enjoy Bob Newhart's comedy a lot, I don't see why I need to upgrade it. Yet I have no choice if I want to upgrade my music.

His isn't the only thing I don't want to upgrade. It's just the most obvious on the screen as I'm looking at it now.
post #51 of 127
What about if I don't want to upgrade all my songs but only certain ones. So I buy just one song in iTunes plus that I've already bought. Like "Smoke on the Water". Will it recognize that I have both the DRM 128 bit version and the non-DRM 256 bit version?

Let's say I decide later to upgrade and you still only have a choice between all or none. I theoretically have both the with and without DRM. Am I going to be charged to upgrade my one with DRM so that I end up with two copies of the song with "iTunes Plus"?
post #52 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by malax View Post

I expect we'll get an album by album, song by song rate soon. Before this recent change this was how it was offered. I'm not inclined to click the Buy button when it's $104.99 and counting.

Frankly though I don't think I can hear the difference between AAC 256 and DRMed tracked burned to CD and reripped.

1. I don't blame you for not rushing to hit the big buy button when over $100. I'd wait too.

2. Album by Album, song by song, is how the store has always worked and with content that was plus at the time of purchase, but is never how the Plus upgrades have worked. I've done a fair number. While it'd be neat for Apple to do it that way, I don't see them changing anytime soon. I'm with you on hoping I'm wrong though.

3. I respect that you can't hear the difference. I would point to the other benefits of being DRM-free, but it's your choice not mine whether you go DRM free with your current library. If it doesn't make a difference, well, that's money saved. I hear it, and want to upgrade all eventually, and others hear it too, please don't be among those attacking us for celebrating that.
post #53 of 127
What if Apple later comes out with super iTunes plus with 512 bit or higher, like 940 or 1411 bit rate which is what some of my music is when imported as AIFF files. I even have one AIFF file that imported at 2116 kbps. I don't know what was up with that album. I don't think it was off a DVD as don't think iTunes imports music off those.

Anyway, what do we pay then? It could happen. Nobody ever expected Apple to go higher than 128.
post #54 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabon View Post

What if Apple later comes out with super iTunes plus with 512 bit or higher, like 940 or 1411 bit rate which is what some of my music is when imported as AIFF files. I even have one AIFF file that imported at 2116 kbps. I don't know what was up with that album. I don't think it was off a DVD as don't think iTunes imports music off those.

Anyway, what do we pay then? It could happen. Nobody ever expected Apple to go higher than 128.

While I'll argue to my grave I hear a significant difference with 256 over 128. Anything above I probably wouldn't hear.
post #55 of 127
I agree with this, last night I upgraded my purchased music and had to pay for a small batch of songs I purchased several years ago for my ex-girlfriend. Seeing that I don't like those songs I did not want to pay anything to d/l songs I was going to delete anyway. Yet, I did pay cuz I just wanted to get the upgrading over with. Maybe I should have waited, but oh well - too late now. I like Apple, but this is bad planning on their part to not allow people to cherry pick what songs and CD's they want to upgrade.

Can someone explain to me why they say upgrading music videos is $0.60 cents, but the music videos according to their own Plus wording is at the same quality as previous?? Why tell/ask me to upgrade videos for the same quality, at least make them 16:9or something.
post #56 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by mesomorphicman View Post

Can someone explain to me why they say upgrading music videos is $0.60 cents, but the music videos according to their own Plus wording is at the same quality as previous?? Why tell/ask me to upgrade videos for the same quality, at least make them 16:9or something.

An upgraded music video has the same video quality, yes. But it uses a 256 audio track instead of a 128 and is DRM-free.
post #57 of 127
Well this is all very silly and entirely too complicated considering the situation.

Which is why, even though I buy my share of iPhone apps & Apple products (mac pro, macbook, etc), I will never be even slightly tempted to purchase songs or albums from iTunes. You can't even pull up a list of what you bought or automatically redownload it by just logging into your account. All of which are gripes too major for me to ignore or set aside.

Apple TV is also impractical. I'm streaming Netflix and Hulu through my PS3 for free using PlayOn and I didn't have to buy any extra boxes or purchase individual content. It was all freeeeeeeeeeeeeee (with the exception of a one time fee of $30 to the developers of PlayOn).

I just don't understand how anyone can afford to support a music collection, rent flicks, and watch TV shows using the media options Apple has made available without having some serious coin.
post #58 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

Has anyone actually seen a track go from DRM'ed to DRM free and does it then acquire the "iTunes Plus" label? It's been like ... two days!

Yes, I have.
post #59 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by doc362 View Post

You can't even pull up a list of what you bought or automatically redownload it by just logging into your account. All of which are gripes too major for me to ignore or set aside.

You can get a list of your downloaded songs. Just log into your account when in the iTunes store.

I do agree with you that we should be able to re-download our purchases at any time. Not everyone backs up their files, and the files ARE there on the iTunes server, so why not let the authorized computer that downloaded the songs be able to download them again?
post #60 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregoriusM View Post

You can get a list of your downloaded songs. Just log into your account when in the iTunes store.

I do agree with you that we should be able to re-download our purchases at any time. Not everyone backs up their files, and the files ARE there on the iTunes server, so why not let the authorized computer that downloaded the songs be able to download them again?


Regarding purchase history, I did not know that. I still cannot fathom shelling out hard earned cash when I have something extremely light weight & free at my disposal. In terms of music, I would rather just purchase the physical disc.

iTunes might top Wal-Mart in sales, but it still has a loooooong way to go before it wins the hearts and minds of everyone. I've been using computers for ages and I'm still barely sold on the exchange of cold hard cash for electronic iPhone apps. They, however, actually serve an ongoing purpose and are highly reusable. I listen to a lot of music, but I'm not sure any one song is worth a buck especially when its DRM'd (not that I expect iTunes to drop the price because of the agreements with labels etc I know they don't make much but that's a whole other discussion I suppose).
post #61 of 127
I just got an e-mail from iTunes support telling me to get an "album only" track by upgrading the whole album to iTunes Plus and sending them the order number, at which point I'll be refunded my money for the rest of the album.

I can't guarantee the same outcome for everyone, but that to me is a shining example of customer service.

MBP 17" (early 2011) • iMac 24" (mid-2007) • iBook G3 (early 2001)

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MBP 17" (early 2011) • iMac 24" (mid-2007) • iBook G3 (early 2001)

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post #62 of 127
lol out of all my songs the I only have one song that I would bother upgrading to DRM free, the other's can stay DRM'ed if I have to pay $$$ to upgrade them
I might as well have downloaded them from the dark side seeing as I now have to pay AGAIN to buy the songs properly
post #63 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabon View Post

What if Apple later comes out with super iTunes plus with 512 bit or higher, like 940 or 1411 bit rate which is what some of my music is when imported as AIFF files. I even have one AIFF file that imported at 2116 kbps. I don't know what was up with that album. I don't think it was off a DVD as don't think iTunes imports music off those.

Anyway, what do we pay then? It could happen. Nobody ever expected Apple to go higher than 128.

Of course you'd pay more. Just as you need to with Blu-ray.

McD
Why does somebody ask me a question, I can never understand, I can never provide the answer, but believe I can.
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Why does somebody ask me a question, I can never understand, I can never provide the answer, but believe I can.
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post #64 of 127
I understand that at least the "upgraded" tracks are at 256kbps (which is the minimum they should have been in the first place), but they are essentially charging you to remove DRM from music you already purchased... Anyone else think there is something wrong with that concept?
post #65 of 127
Strange...

I've purchased four albums from the iTunes store, one of which I deleted from my computer months ago. And wouldn't you know it, only the three albums I still owned showed up on my 'Upgrade My Music' page. No sign of the album I deleted. Am I special or what?

Also, after the upgrade, the iTunes store didn't prompt me to delete or archive the old tracks with DRM. I had to remove them from my iTunes library manually.
post #66 of 127
I won't spend a penny to upgrade any songs. If they were good enough when I bought them, they are good enough now.

I should make real audioCDs of all my purchased music (probably about 10 albums total), but I haven't (got lazy). The only thing that would kill me is if I couldn't access/play my purchased music because Apple's authorization servers went down (someday they probably will). Wal-Mart music, anyone?

I own 95% of all my music on CD. iTunes is very convenient to purchase music, but not my ideal source.
post #67 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

* iTunes uses your account's purchase history to present this "special offer", so you'll still spot songs you long ago banished to the Trash in disgust.

interesting. inconvenient if you have deleted those songs. convenient if you deleted them in error.

thankfully I have only purchased a handful of songs thus far so this will not sting the wallet too much.
post #68 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by wraithofwonder View Post

I'm sort of curious how high that'll go. Thus why I haven't upgraded yet.

It sort of hurts the real long term loyal customers. Cost for my library (1100 tracks) => 220 Euro. So as one might imagine => my happiness is rather contained at the moment
post #69 of 127
They were fine before, there fine now. Just start new from now on. Who cares, you're all upgrade nuts.
post #70 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by winterspan View Post

I understand that at least the "upgraded" tracks are at 256kbps (which is the minimum they should have been in the first place), but they are essentially charging you to remove DRM from music you already purchased... Anyone else think there is something wrong with that concept?

Blame the music companies - you think they'd let you have another copy for free?
post #71 of 127
Just got my bill for $29.
Hey Apple:
Fool me once - shame on me,
Fool me twice- shame on you!
post #72 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by bleach1st View Post

I might as well have downloaded them from the dark side seeing as I now have to pay AGAIN to buy the songs properly

Oh how I miss those dark days of MACSTER.
post #73 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by federmoose View Post

For those who will complain about the cost (aka eric42):

Some people have seemingly legitimate points. They include: "Wow, I have poor timing. I bought this music yesterday when it was not iTunes plus, now I have to pay for an upgrade the next day." This is a reasonable point. But to juxtapose this argument I submit this one: One day before the CD version of your new favorite album came out, you purchase the same album on tape. Should you get a free upgrade? No. In fact, you'd have to pay full price; you wouldn't even have the option of paying a reduced upgrade fee. That people feel this entitlement towards upgrades of music astounds me.
Some may counter that argument by saying that you aren't selling something physical. I agree that the lack of a physical purchase allows for upgrades to be distributed with little cost to the distributor (and therefore discounted upgrade fees should be expected instead of full price repurchase), but there are still costs. Think bandwidth, storage space, wear and tear of read/write on server HD's, etc. While these costs might not total $0.30, Apple surely is not reaping large profits off these downloads.

For those who complain about paying for music in general, I have a different rant for you, but I'll save the other readers from it.

Yes, my argument is, in fact, that there is no physical product and that the price hasn't changed--just the format. Apple clearly has the infrastructure in place as I am constantly receiving free upgrades to my AppStore purchases.

I understand that the number of songs sold FAR exceeds the number of apps and the bandwidth requirements would be significantly higher. This could be managed by Apple, however, by imposing a maximum number of daily upgrades and bandwidth throttling.

I think they are making (or at least hoping to make) a lot more from this than you think.
post #74 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriamjh View Post

I won't spend a penny to upgrade any songs. If they were good enough when I bought them, they are good enough now.

I should make real audioCDs of all my purchased music (probably about 10 albums total), but I haven't (got lazy). The only thing that would kill me is if I couldn't access/play my purchased music because Apple's authorization servers went down (someday they probably will). Wal-Mart music, anyone?

I own 95% of all my music on CD. iTunes is very convenient to purchase music, but not my ideal source.

I agree and will not be upgrading my library either. Although I still believe this should be a free (or at least significantly cheaper) upgrade.

Here's my prediction of what will happen:

1) Apple allows upgrade of your entire library only at $.30 / song (Now) probably only getting the bucks from people with more money than they know what to do with or people with smaller libraries who don't may paying a relatively small amount.

2) Apple allows selective upgrading of your songs at $.30 / song allowing them to capture some money from those with larger libraries.

3) Apple reduces the cost of the upgrade significantly to try to capitalize on those people who wouldn't spend the cash or wouldn't spend it on their entire library.

Step 2 is almost a given but will be billed as an added convenience, not a money-making scheme. Step 3, if it happens, will really tick people off who shelled out the higher price.

Time will tell.
post #75 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by eric42 View Post

Yes, my argument is, in fact, that there is no physical product and that the price hasn't changed--just the format. Apple clearly has the infrastructure in place as I am constantly receiving free upgrades to my AppStore purchases.

I understand that the number of songs sold FAR exceeds the number of apps and the bandwidth requirements would be significantly higher. This could be managed by Apple, however, by imposing a maximum number of daily upgrades and bandwidth throttling.

I think they are making (or at least hoping to make) a lot more from this than you think.

Can you imagine if people who bought Blu-ray players had to pay a fee for every DVD (non-Blu-ray) to play in their new machines? Same thing.
We have to now pay more to play our music in a non-Apple machine.
Thank god I never bought that much to begin with ( Total charge so far $29).
To those who did- I feel your pain. It's like April 15th arrived earlier this year.
post #76 of 127
One big relief: iTunes is not disallowing the upgrade of long-ago purchased songs whose DRM I already stripped with JHymn (before Apple broke it). If iTunes disowned those tracks, I wouldn't be able to upgrade to 256-bit and Apple would have had revenge for my previous tampering. But it all upgraded, except for a Maroon 5 album that's available in iTunes Plus but won't upgrade for some reason, and also my Thriller album won't upgrade because iTunes doesn't have the exact special edition I purchased anymore.
post #77 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by YodaMac View Post

The only reason to upgrade is if you plan on illegally sharing your music with other people, right?

Aren't the DRM free versions also higher quality?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjtomlin View Post

Not necessarily, if I wanted to listen to the music on my Zune or some other non-iPod player.

Yep. Or if you wanted to use it for a ring on your cell phone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eric42 View Post

Why should there be an upgrade fee at all? The music was $.99 with DRM. It is (for the most part) $.99 now that it's DRM-free but I have to pay $.30 per song because I made the mistake of giving Apple my business too early.

If it was free, that would be billions of free downloads, which would cost Apple a fortune. Sure, 30 cents is way higher than the bandwidth costs, but I would assume it would be too costly to do for free.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

I'd rather give my kids a $29 Sansa to loose (they're kids, stuff happens) instead of a $150 iPod.

The shuffle is $49.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

I'd still like to know when the tracks will be upgraded and how we will know when they are.

They should be labled as iTunes plus when they switch (as has been the case for years). And while there's probably no way to predict when an individual album will switch, Apple says they will all be DRM free by April. So you might as well just wait until then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

because you are getting a second copy of the song. you can play both.

But what value is the older, lower quality, DRM version? Once you have the new one, what reason would anyone have to ever play the old one again? Seems like it's even a waste of HD space, I would just delete the obsolete file.
post #78 of 127
Now Apple have sorted out the DRM mess with the music it sells can it now turn its attention to visual content?

I would love to be able to play all my legally purchased TV shows and Movies on an Archos player but can't because of the DRM!

I can't even burn visual content on to DVD. Go figure.
post #79 of 127
#1 Apple should allow customers to selectively pick which songs they want to upgrade,

and/or

#2 Similar in principle to how the Genius playlist operates, Apple should create an iTMS feature that scans for all current DRM tracks in a customer's library. You would have to be logged in, as well as have the computer authorized by you (and obviously have it contain DRM tracks purchased by you). This would eliminate upgrading based on a user's purchase history, which 9/10 times doesn't reflect whats currently in their library.

Edit: #2 would also present Apple a method of preventing file duplication, since a scan could read tracks' locations on your HD and could simply overright them. I don't know about any of you, but I always move my purchased music into a separate music folder (label: Purchased Music) upon download. This way, I can distinguish what music I have purchased from the iTMS vs. obtained through other means. Therefore, a good chuck of my library isnt being read from the default iTunes folder directory. Having an overright feature would be amaaaaazing.
post #80 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic_Al View Post

One big relief: iTunes is not disallowing the upgrade of long-ago purchased songs whose DRM I already stripped with JHymn (before Apple broke it). If iTunes disowned those tracks, I wouldn't be able to upgrade to 256-bit and Apple would have had revenge for my previous tampering. But it all upgraded, except for a Maroon 5 album that's available in iTunes Plus but won't upgrade for some reason, and also my Thriller album won't upgrade because iTunes doesn't have the exact special edition I purchased anymore.

There are a few different possible takes on that. For one, they are basing upgrades based on what you bought from them over the years, not what's in your current library. Another is that it's water under the bridge, if they can make a few cents a track then there's no reason to "penalize" you for breaking their encryption in the past when they're selling unencrypted tracks now.
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