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Andy Ihnatko's rumor might be true after all.. - Page 9

post #321 of 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickag View Post

Gross Margin (TTM)\t89.87
Gross Margin - 5 Yr. Avg.\t90.52
Operating Margin (TTM)\t28.72
Operating Margin - 5 Yr. Avg.\t29.02
Pre-Tax Margin (TTM)\t30.13
Pre-Tax Margin - 5 Yr. Avg.\t31.51
Net Profit Margin (TTM)\t24.35
Net Profit Margin - 5 Yr. Avg.\t24.37
Effective Tax Rate (TTM)\t19.16
Effecitve Tax Rate - 5 Yr. Avg.\t22.68

Interesting numbers, but what company is this?
It could be a local small software company with a yearly revenue of 1 dollar, of which 89.87% is kept.
This way these numbers tell nothing.

Pieter.
post #322 of 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by PPie View Post

Interesting numbers, but what company is this?
It could be a local small software company with a yearly revenue of 1 dollar, of which 89.87% is kept.
This way these numbers tell nothing.

Pieter.

Opps, sorry about that. The company is Adobe.

for my greivous error here's

Oracle
Gross Margin (TTM) \t78.37
Gross Margin - 5 Yr. Avg. \t77.36
Operating Margin (TTM) \t35.46
Operating Margin - 5 Yr. Avg. \t34.44
Pre-Tax Margin (TTM) \t34.39
Pre-Tax Margin - 5 Yr. Avg. \t34.69
Net Profit Margin (TTM) \t24.45
Net Profit Margin - 5 Yr. Avg. \t24.42
Effective Tax Rate (TTM) \t28.91
Effecitve Tax Rate - 5 Yr. Avg. \t29.61
just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
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just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
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post #323 of 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickag View Post

Opps, sorry about that. The company is Adobe.

for my greivous error here's

Oracle
Gross Margin (TTM) \t78.37
Gross Margin - 5 Yr. Avg. \t77.36
Operating Margin (TTM) \t35.46
Operating Margin - 5 Yr. Avg. \t34.44
Pre-Tax Margin (TTM) \t34.39
Pre-Tax Margin - 5 Yr. Avg. \t34.69
Net Profit Margin (TTM) \t24.45
Net Profit Margin - 5 Yr. Avg. \t24.42
Effective Tax Rate (TTM) \t28.91
Effecitve Tax Rate - 5 Yr. Avg. \t29.61

OK, I already thought it was Adobe. I googled 'Operating Margin - 5 Yr. Avg. 29.02' and found it.

We can also look at it in another way:
On the nasdaq.com site financial info is available about the companies.
So, lets compare the 3 companies a bit more, and removing the cost of the sold hardware:

MSFT Total Revenue: $60,420,000,000
AAPL Total Revenue: $32,479,000,000
ADBE Total Revenue: $3,579,889,000
(Hmm, having half the revenue as MSFT with less than 10% of the PC market?)

MSFT Cost of Revenue: $11,598,000,000
AAPL Cost of Revenue: $21,334,000,000
ADBE Cost of Revenue: $362,630,000
(So indeed, selling hardware is expensive...)

Thus gross profits:
MSFT Gross Profit:$48,822,000,000
AAPL Gross Profit: $11,145,000,000
ADBE Gross Profit: $3,217,259,000


But then, lets see what happens when other costs are removed:

MSFT Net Income: $17,681,000,000
AAPL Net Income: $4,834,000,000
ADBE Net Income: $871,814,000

What is this as a percentage of revenue:
MSFT 29.26%
AAPL 14.83%
ADBE 24.35%
Hmm. Selling hardware seems to have a lower net profit.

OK, but what is this as a percentage of gross profit?

MSFT 36.17%
AAPL 43.37%
ADBE 27.10%

Now that is interesting! Apple is doing the best, with a big margin!
So after removing the cost of the hardware, which is shifted 1 to 1 to the customer,
the remainder is better if doing hardware.

Other figures:
From the Reuters finance site:
MSFT Net Income/Employee: 189,363
AAPL Net Income/Employee: 151,812
ADBE Net Income/Employee: 118,776
No idea what the unit is, I assume $. Also here Apple is not doing too shabby.
Microsoft has an unbelievable income per employee, due to the MS OS tax, not due to 'selling software'...


Now, as you did not give an OS company, I will give the same numbers for Novell and Red Hat
(I just took 2, maybe these are the bad ones, I did not check):


NOVL Total Revenue: $956,513,000
RHT Total Revenue: $523,016,000

NOVL Cost of Revenue: $237,624,000
RHT Cost of Revenue: $80,653,000

Thus gross profits:
NOVL Gross Profit:$718,889,000
RHT Gross Profit: $442,363,000

NOVL Net Income: -$8,745,000
RHT Net Income: $76,667,000
(Oops. Novell is not doing well...)

What is this as a percentage of revenue:
NOVL -0.91%
RHT 14.65%
(Both lower than AAPL, Novell way lower ;-) )

OK, but what is this as a percentage of gross profit?

NOVL -1.22%
RHT 17.33%
(Oops. Novell still not doing well...)

Apple is still doing better, with a big margin again...

Reuter figures:
NOVL Net Income/Employee: -3,085
AAPL Net Income/Employee: 38,518

Again, Apple is not doing bad, even though they are selling hardware.


I still think that only Microsoft can be a company selling a separate OS and be a huge success.
('Success' of course debatable ;-) I really do not like the Windows OS)
Because something like 90% of the PC market is MS, they can have a sort of MS OS tax.
I really think no other company can step into that market. Look at Linux, or OS/2, or BeOS.
None of them are a success. People want a compatible computer so choose Windows,
or maybe, Apple's OS X.
Apple sells you a piece of hardware with it. You could see it as a sort of 'hardware dongle' ;-)
post #324 of 488
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
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post #325 of 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Satellite radio on the iPod?

If the iPhone gets satellite radio, its just a GPS feature away from being the ultimate road trip accessory. That would be nice (although they still need to open it up to other networks, as rogers sucks)
post #326 of 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by PPie View Post


Now, as you did not give an OS company, I will give the same numbers for Novell and Red Hat
(I just took 2, maybe these are the bad ones, I did not check):

Novell and Red Hat are the two primary enterprise linux vendors with RH being the more relevant of the two. I guess you can add Oracle with their enterprise grade linux.

I might look at Sun as a another OS vendor to profile. Really the last of the Unix ones...HP pushes Linux as much as HPUX these days. Same with IBM over AIX.
post #327 of 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboNerd View Post

Hmm, my bad. I must have missed that part. I guess my first question is what would justify the expense and complications involved in opening the Windows API to XCode?

hahaha as we said it was completed a couple of years ago.

apple already has their xcode checkbox for delivering itunes, safari, quicktime for windows. all they have to do is allow other developers to have that checkbox in xcode.

the rewritten quicktime x could serve as that core library on the windows side we've been waiting for...
post #328 of 488
<hey Ireland,
since you are in the know, how about an update? if you still cant hint at what the big announcement will be could you at least give us an idea of the timing? is it likely this will be announced in the next few weeks or will it be months from now?
post #329 of 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by macfly View Post

<hey Ireland,
since you are in the know, how about an update? if you still cant hint at what the big announcement will be could you at least give us an idea of the timing? is it likely this will be announced in the next few weeks or will it be months from now?

Ireland knows jack-squat
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post #330 of 488
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flounder View Post

Ireland knows jack-squat

Whos Jack Squat?
post #331 of 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

I'd rather Apple have a business model like Microsoft (software) than a business model like Dell (hardware). Why? Because Microsoft makes more money on a typical Dell sale, than Dell does.

Desktop computer sales are flatlining. Computer hardware manufacture is largely a commodity business with nosediving profits.

It is if you sell to a market saturated with essentially undifferentiated hardware priced as cheaply as possible. Dell does. Apple doesn't.

The whole genius of Apple's approach, especially now, is that they have the profitable segments to themselves. Apple's laptop market share is impressive, but their share within their price bracket actually shocked me. In fact, part of the problem the commodity manufacturers are having is that they can't just put nicer parts in the same cheap boxes anymore. Apple has defined the premium market to exclude commodity offerings, and only companies that are willing to sit down and do some serious engineering (Lenovo/IBM, Panasonic, Sony) even have a credible presence in that space.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

That low market share does not harm their hardware business. But it does undermine the viability of the OS X software platform. And its attractiveness to developers.

Extending OS X to commodity hardware would undermine OS X. The ability to assemble a computer out of random parts--especially if they're cheap parts--might appeal to end users, but it's an absolute nightmare for system vendors (and for application vendors, for that matter).

Look at what Apple did instead: They released an OS X platform that costs a couple of hundred dollars, and which has developers of all kinds flocking to build applications for it: iPhone/iPod touch. All those developers are using Apple's tools and Objective-C and Cocoa to build those applications. They're making money. They're selling into a large and burgeoning market. And Apple still controls the hardware.

The hardest thing for people who admire the PC/Windows model to accept is that Apple is able to punch above its weight precisely because it refuses to consider software outside of the hardware it runs on or hardware outside of the software it runs. That's what allows it to remain small and lean while competing against much larger corporations. that's what allows it to define and own the most profitable product categories in the market.

I sort of like the idea of picking up Win32 as Microsoft abandons it, except that there are systemic flaws built into the API that make it the security nightmare that it famously is. Microsoft is not entirely cynical in trying to move people to their new operating systems. They're fundamentally better architected and more secure. Apple would have to do some really clever sandboxing not to simply inherit all the problems that finally caused Microsoft to drop its beloved backward compatibility and jettison Win32.
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post #332 of 488
Amorph,

That's a proper well-thought-out post.

My point is that Apple will soon totally own the premium hardware niche entirely. In laptops this has probably already happened. It leaves Apple with very little opportunity for growth in that sector.

So either it has to do something new and risky and cool (OS X without the Mac)

Or it sits-still in the computer market, enjoys the steady profits and looks for growth elsewhere (iPhone). Which is the option you are suggesting.

This is fine, but a 10%-15% market share remains a problem for the platform. Whole classes of development will never go to the Mac because of that basic problem. Games for instance.

And for the final time. Apple can offer OS X to OEMs without replicating Microsoft's worst mistakes.

C.
post #333 of 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Amorph,
My point is that Apple will soon totally own the premium hardware niche entirely. In laptops this has probably already happened. It leaves Apple with very little opportunity for growth in that sector.

I honestly hope they don't. Somebody needs to keep a fire lit under them. Fortunately, there is an ample profit incentive for anyone who succeeds, so there should be no shortage of efforts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

So either it has to do something new and risky and cool (OS X without the Mac)

Or it sits-still in the computer market, enjoys the steady profits and looks for growth elsewhere (iPhone). Which is the option you are suggesting.

Here is a thought: Divorce Apple's future from the Mac in your mind completely. Not so that they'd kill the Mac, but so that they no longer believe that they depend on it but they'll build it while customers come. Now what does Apple's future look like to you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

This is fine, but a 10%-15% market share remains a problem for the platform. Whole classes of development will never go to the Mac because of that basic problem. Games for instance.

The iPhone is the beginning of the end of x86. Mark my words. Even Intel wants to get rid of that old cruft, but while the market was driven by conventional personal computers it was impossible. But the platforms coming up are ARM (which Intel also has a big stake in--they're not stupid) and other "small mammals" to the x86 dinosaur. As this shift happens, slowly but inexorably (perhaps over a decade or more?), the legacy problems of the Mac go away. In their place you have the systems heralded by the iPhone, which, to everyone's surprise, is a hit gaming console. The basic building blocks remain in place: OS X, Cocoa, etc., but Apple will have a chance to build a whole new GUI, start with a bang and a lot of developers, and get a few years to build its game while Microsoft focuses on trying to move the personal computer forward.

I'm not trying to argue that this is all going to be rosy. Apple has demonstrated an astonishing ability to shoot itself in the foot, sabotage itself, and lose focus. But this is where I believe they're looking. We're all turning Japanese, as the old song went, and the future is smaller, more agile, and pervasively networked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

And for the final time. Apple can offer OS X to OEMs without replicating Microsoft's worst mistakes.

Apple does not only have to worry about making Microsoft's mistakes. They have to worry more about making Apple's mistakes. The problem with depending on profits from the premium market is that that's where the profit is, so everyone wants a piece. That's what happened the first time Apple handed out licenses: Every licensee went right for the big money. No company with competent management is going to be content building $400 ATX desktops that can run OS X. The margins are razor thin and the desktop market is shrinking. They'll want a piece of Apple's laptop action.
"...within intervention's distance of the embassy." - CvB

Original music:
The Mayflies - Black earth Americana. Now on iTMS!
Becca Sutlive - Iowa Fried Rock 'n Roll - now on iTMS!
Reply
"...within intervention's distance of the embassy." - CvB

Original music:
The Mayflies - Black earth Americana. Now on iTMS!
Becca Sutlive - Iowa Fried Rock 'n Roll - now on iTMS!
Reply
post #334 of 488
This thread has evolved a little I see.
Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #335 of 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

This thread has evolved a little I see.

any comments?
post #336 of 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

And for the final time.

I sure hope so.
post #337 of 488
I'm tellin' ya, it's going to be an Apple television, built in Front Row with iTunes and iPhonesque OSX so it can game (iPhone "nano" remote, "premium games" section in iTunes).
post #338 of 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by sixfootbrit View Post

I'm tellin' ya, it's going to be an Apple television, built in Front Row with iTunes and iPhonesque OSX so it can game (iPhone "nano" remote, "premium games" section in iTunes).

I say Pippin 2.0. An apple game console. Of course, I also say that's a pipe dream and not likely to happen.
post #339 of 488
Closer than you think. The next AppleTV will almost certainly tie into the App Store and play iPhone games.

Just makes sense. It's largely the same operating system, development tools and internet infrastructure.
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post #340 of 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Closer than you think. The next AppleTV will almost certainly tie into the App Store and play iPhone games.

Just makes sense. It's largely the same operating system, development tools and internet infrastructure.

There are some potential downsides...like appearing to be going against Nintendo and the Wii and losing badly.

If the iPhone was directly compared against the DS, the sales numbers might seem...anemic...so it is good that it is not so compared.

Apple would have to buy Sega and some other dev houses to compete...and even if they did that, they'd get trashed by the Wii and DS. At least the iPhone is a PHONE. An AppleTV has a lot less cover in terms of being perceived as a wannabe console vs a media extender that happens to play games.
post #341 of 488
Quote:
Apple would have to buy Sega and some other dev houses to compete...and even if they did that, they'd get trashed by the Wii and DS. At least the iPhone is a PHONE. An AppleTV has a lot less cover in terms of being perceived as a wannabe console vs a media extender that happens to play games.

It's a little different if the "console" is built into an actual 42" plus television, an Apple television.
post #342 of 488
I think the time is right. I fully expect to see OSX without the Mac this year. It's already intel native. Windows is weaker than it's been in the last 15+ years. They'll never have a better opportunity to seize market share.

All they need do is have an installer script that checks hardware (this could be downloadable from the Apple site) to tell the user whether their computer is OSX compatible.

I believe the licensing of the product to OEM hardware manufacturers alone will make it worth their while...
post #343 of 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by sixfootbrit View Post

It's a little different if the "console" is built into an actual 42" plus television, an Apple television.

Right...lets limit sales to folks without large screen TVs already...
post #344 of 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by sixfootbrit View Post

It's a little different if the "console" is built into an actual 42" plus television, an Apple television.

Considering you can buy an Apple TV and a 42" LCD TV for the cost of the 24" apple monitor, I can only imagine how overpriced a 42" apple television would be. Besides, apple hasn't updated their desktop line in ages - I'd rather they update existing products rather than introduce anything else new. They really have proven that they can't keep up with their own products right now.
post #345 of 488
So what is the list so far?

* OS X on on non macs
* Win32 API within OS X
* OS X API under Windows (Yellow box)
* AppleTV App Store
* AppleTV TV
* OS X App Store

Anything else?

C.
post #346 of 488
Wine......
will serve no wine until its time
post #347 of 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post



Right...lets limit sales to folks without large screen TVs already...

Or the people with a beamer.
I have a first-gen Mac mini 1.42 GHz as my DVD player/iTunes server connected to a 720p HD beamer projecting on a 3 meter diagonal screen.
I could not live with such a measly 42" screen...
I am waiting for the new Mac mini refresh to upgrade the 'dvd player', or even better, an xMac.
(Then the next upgrade will be a 1080p beamer... )
post #348 of 488
I just threw 42" out there, a good minimum size for 1080p capable tv's. It's fun to speculate, within certain "realistic" limits, and Apple's penchant for all-in-one products (sorry....convergence) and their recent exclusive with LG, plus the iPhone "nano" speculation, made me think. I still think an Apple television would fit well in an ever diversifying product line, and we do have a HDTV deadline coming up, so many of us are looking for a new one.
post #349 of 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

So what is the list so far?

* OS X on on non macs
* Win32 API within OS X
* OS X API under Windows (Yellow box)
* AppleTV App Store
* AppleTV TV
* OS X App Store

Anything else?

C.


I've said this before, I'll say it again. I think Apple will get involved with in-car interfaces. As cars get more complicated (addition of cellphone bluetooth, navigation, rear facing cameras etc etc), companies are going to need someone to simplify things.

I think their next step will be to perfect in-car computers. Rumors began months ago when word got out that Audi Chairman Martin Winterkorn and Steve Jobs were getting together to brainstorm ideas. On top of that, Apple commonly references many companies that they enjoy working with in their ads, keynote presentations and demonstrations.

iPhone commercial:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnjV0QGpwT0

Slide from this years: "Lets Rock" events
http://www.germancarblog.com/images/...s-rock-032.jpg

Also Audi reciprocated their support for Apple, as they recently launched the first application made by a car company. And then on-top of that they made a correlating iPhone A4 experience website. That one really made me do a double take ... like, wtf? Seriously, why the heck would Audi release an application for the iPhone? Marketing? Doubt it... seriously. I believe Audi did it as a kind business gesture to Apple to show their allegiance and support. And Audi's remarks on the topic tell you what direction the company is headed:

The iPhone is an ideal platform to help introduce the entirely new Audi A4 to the public, said Scott Keogh, chief marketing officer, Audi of America. Audi customers are smart, sophisticated and technologically savvy. As a brand, we are committed to progress and innovation at every turn. Were very excited to be the first automotive manufacturer to connect with our audience through the iPhone.

http://www.autospies.com/news/Audi-R...acturer-33860/

Audi has already started to make mention of their new "in-car interface", telling the automotive community to be on the watch for a new system to come with the new A8 this summer, claiming it to be "more innovative" than any of their past MMI systems.

I envision something along the lines of an interface completely based on touch in the up and coming Audi vehicles. An interface that handles, navigation, heating, cooling, media and incoming calls through one stream lined screen. Your car will have a version of iTunes programmed into the internal hard drive direct from the factory. Music will sync to your car, and so will your contacts and possibly even calendar. Apple's assistance will help Audi eclipse the competition as they look to continue their growth towards being the number one selling luxury car in the world.

Apple loves getting into big markets. Thats why when it came time to choose an industry to get involved in beyond computers they chose music. Its a huge industry. And after that, of course the cellphone industry. What's that at like somewhere around 1 billion cellphones produced annually? So what other industries would Apple be likely to get involved in next? Well, we all know that computers are becoming increasingly integral in automobiles and what do ya know... oh yeah, the automotive industry is freakin huge! 70mil+ automobiles produced annually in the world. And on top of that Audi is the fastest growing luxury brand in the world.

Oh yeah... one other little tid bit. I know Johnny Ives drives an Audi A8, but I also read his entire staff is known to be fans of Audi as well. Anyone care to share some knowledge about that?
post #350 of 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by HyteProsector View Post

I've said this before, I'll say it again. I think Apple will get involved with in-car interfaces.

Nice.

It's a gigantic market. And it is awash with over-priced, utterly useless software.

I love my Audi - by my goodness, the software is utter crap.
It has a GPS navigation system, using a DVD ROM. The worst possible way to store 5GBs
The frame rate is about 2 fps.
Navigation of its interface is excruciating.
And to make matters worse, Audi think this POS is worth $3000.

C.
post #351 of 488
A couple of years ago Apple was rumored to be working with Mercedes Benz on a NAV/entertainment system. But nothing seems to have happened.

I don't know why Apple haven't entered this market. They could easily improve on what's already out there.
post #352 of 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

This thread has evolved a little I see.

Hope you are doing alright mate.
post #353 of 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

A couple of years ago Apple was rumored to be working with Mercedes Benz on a NAV/entertainment system. But nothing seems to have happened.

I don't know why Apple haven't entered this market. They could easily improve on what's already out there.

Interesting - the European manufacturers, particularly the higher end ones, have started collaborating on common software platforms across their companies. I wonder if Apple is going to jump in to provide the user-facing front end, and hit all the brands at once?
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post #354 of 488
i'd like to see apple get into the auto like MS with sync (ford)
more integration breeds loyalty
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post #355 of 488
The reason why Apple isn't involved in the car market yet is that this would spread them too thin. And I think rightly so.

Think about it. Apple's most talented user interface designers need to:
- focus on Snow Leopard, to help it differentiate against Windows 7,
- focus on the iPod touch / iPhone, to help it retain market share and fend off other MP3 players and emerging smart phones based on Android and Palm's Pre,
- focus on iLife and iWork application design to turn them into the best consumer suits while migrating them to be usable web applications,
- focus on pro application like Final Cut Pro and the successor of Shake,
- focus on iTunes to keep it at the forefront of jukebox, app store, movie buying and rental software,
- focus on AppleTV to make it a successful settop box,

All the while playing around with new dazzling fields like 3D user interfaces and total touch control.


How many talented people can they spare to tackle yet another completely new field?
Not that the Auto industry doesn't need help.
But I think Apple has enough on its plate...

--

Ireland!
Any more comments apart from a small one-liner?
post #356 of 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Hope you are doing alright mate.

Thanks man.
Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #357 of 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobBIT

Ireland!
Any more comments apart from a small one-liner?

What do you want me to say?
Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #358 of 488
When Apple enters a market, they make the whole widget. And they're not about to enter the Car-making business...
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post #359 of 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

When Apple enters a market, they make the whole widget. And they're not about to enter the Car-making business...

Who's words are those?
Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #360 of 488
My own.
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