Apple working on 15-inch MacBook Air, says blog - Page 2

Those who value portability over performance.


Amazon isn't the primary seller of Apple's computers. Apple's online and brick-and-mortar stores are.


Obviously you missed their Macworld keynote last week, where it was noted Apple's computer sales are growing over twice as fast as the rest of the industry.


Well then I guess Apple's gonna have a while to think about things. Netbooks are cannibalizing similarly priced, similarly junky, full-size laptops, which is not where Apple competes, nor needs to compete (again, considering their premium Macs are outpacing the industry by a large margin).

But given that portability is at the expense of performance, machines with higher portability and lower performance should cost less given that higher performance is harder to achieve. Making something slower isn't.


I know but it's an indicator of what people buying from a retailer that sells both Macs and PCs side by side are doing.


Low end technology is still at the point where it is slow enough that even for basic stuff, a more expensive machine makes sense. Once they get dual core 1.83GHz Atoms then it's going to be harder for high end manufacturers to sell to the masses.

I think a single 1.83GHz Atom is due in March.


How long is a while in the computer industry? People say SSD will take a while before it's mainstream. A lot of companies today are in serious trouble financially and pushing technology to make as many sales as they can. They are selling quad machines with displays now for just over £500 ($750). Where do they go after that?

They go smaller and cheaper, exactly where netbooks are. This is why it's wrong for people to keep looking at Apple's premium line as defining their future when it's the Mini and a laptop equivalent that will take over eventually.

I would go so far as to say that in 3-5 years, Apple won't be able to sell a £1000+ computer unless it's encrusted with diamonds.

What happens when you get a machine with 4 main cores + 128 GPU cores that processes normal tasks adequately and every specialized task as fast as you'd need? So fast that the computer doesn't hold you back no matter what you are doing. You don't need anything more than this. When this machine costs under £500 and it does virtualization fast enough that it runs any OS fast enough, what will Apple do? Rely on the fact that they have protected their software from running on anything that isn't a Mac? I'm sure that people will be as loyal to that as they are to buying the Adobe CS Suite and this is evident from the interest in buying MSI Winds and putting OS X on them.

Not when they use miniaturized versions of full-sized Intel processors and adequate storage space (as well as a full size display, keyboard, aluminum unibody construction, and MultiTouch trackpad) like the MacBook Air does. Equipped with an SSD, MacBook Air's are pretty zippy.

Netbooks boot slow and generally have pathetic storage space as well as claustrophobic, migraine-inducing screens (w/ no energy efficient, long lasting, instant-on LED backlighting) and carpal tunnel-inducing micro keyboards.



Right, and it's not a good indicator.


The "masses" are buying Macs over what the competition's offering by a BIG margin. Also, see my signature.


You're basing your predictions for the future on what applications of today require in terms of performance, rather than what applications of the future will require. D'oh!

The AIR is thinner AND lighter than the macbook. That 2 pounds matter.

I also would like to see the real estate around the screen and keyboard on my macbook air shrink, though I have never found the footprint constraining - all my bags, backpacks, etc have always had space and it was the weight and thickness that were helpful.

However, I find 13inches is the minimum screen size for long-term use and this also conveniently allows a fullsize keyboard. Below this is just inefficient, especially in letterbox.

Having said that, above 13inches helps a touch with a bigger screen, but adds weight and less on the bottom unit except perhaps more space for a larger batter (which also adds to the weight.

So again, I'd love the design - I enjoy looking at my laptop everyday as do others - but this would be a what - 4.lb macbook pro??

No offence but this is a whole lot of nonsense. I'm surprised because you are a moderator and you have been here for years.

It really doesn't occur to you that other people value different things in a computer? That portability or even "looks cool" could be as important to someone's buying decision as functionality is to yours?

I understand your opinion here, but you are arguing it as if it's objective fact for all of us. It's not.

I was speaking to the people that want to make a hacintosh. The folks on that forum have written drivers for the mini9 and created one of the most stable configurations out there for a hacintosh. Do you have a built in memory stick reader on your mac? The problem with bluetooth only pertains to instillation of the mac os. If its off when installing osx there is not currently a way to turn it on. The were finally able to get the standard hard drive to sleep but you have to hit a key after wakeup or the computer acts like the 0 key is stuck. Wow those are deal breakers huh? You quoted the final few issues that they are working to resolve and and the team is asking for any other known problems. What about early mba's that shut down cores from over heating when watching you tube? Nope my dell has no fan and can play youtube videos fine. No banding or other screen problems either. I can get almost 4 hours on the battery and it recharges in about an hour and half from completely discharged. That's what about hour less then the best possible runtime of an air and about 3x as fast to recharge. Wow Nice for a machine that costs 1/4 as much as a mba.
My point was not that everyone should run out and buy a dell but that if you are going to build a hacintosh then you should consider it. I realize that the idea of hacintosh offends some people but after creating a hacintosh netbook I can say that apple is ignoring this to their detriment. I expect that in time apple will come out with their own very unique take on a netbook.

Boy, you must really like shoving your foot deep into your mouth. You haven't the vaguest notion of what you're talking about. My Wind running Leopard cold-boots in less than 60 seconds. Others who have timed their Winds go down to as low as 40 seconds, and roughly the same booting into XP. The "pathetic" storage space that comes stock is 120GB, not much less than the 160GB that the Macbook comes with, and it's a standard 2.5" HD so I can push it to 500GB if I wanted to. Hate to break it to you, but the Wind does have an "energy efficient, long lasting, instant-on LED backlight." And it doesn't sound like you have any idea what causes RSI. You'd better quit while you're ahead. Oh, wait, you're not ahead.

The Apple copy says "was". Intel introduced the small form factor for everybody else in August:

http://download.intel.com/pressroom/...Mainstream.jpg

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/hardwar...ps-announced/1


You are right that 1.8" drives are more expensive than 2.5" drives. However, drive cost is measured in dollars per GB. So the 1.8" drives are more expensive per byte, not necessarily per unit. So a 1.8", 120GB drive may not cost more than a 250GB 2.5" drive. You "pay" by having less capacity, not necessarily by needing more dollars.

the way i read it, the entry asserts there will be a size other than 13.3"; the idea it would be a 15" is parenthetical speculation.

i think there's a greater likelihood of the MBA line expanding with the addition of a smaller model (read: "netbook"). That would still be consistent with this report, it seems to me.

Doing "less" according to whom? Honestly people, unless you actually own an MBA to make the critique, all you're doing is just pulling guesses out of your backside and you very well know it.

I use my MBA 8 hours a day at the office. In the morning and the end of the day, it gets thrown in my bag and heads home with me where it usually gets used even more when I decide to continue working from the comfort of my sofa.

I have Windows XP installed using VMware Fusion. My VM runs faster than my previous Sony Vaio laptop did running XP dedicated. I use WinXP for the software development tools that are Microsoft-only. I use the OSX side for everything else like email, websurfing, iTunes, video playing, etc. It works like a charm. Performance is great, and it doesn't slow me down, I am completely happy with the overall design of the machine. In my line of work, portability, lightness, durability and decent performance is an absolute must. MBA owners don't really care that it can't play Crysis as 130fps so stop comparing apples and oranges. I can say this statement as an actual user and not like you folks that have "heard" of a problem or "have a friend, that had a friend, that heard of a problem.".

My MBA performs more for me than my previous Sony Vaio and that was small too. I get more work done on it as well. It's an all-around better built machine. The netbooks everyone keeps wanting to compare the MBA to - while cheaper - are total junk. I have seen them and used them (out of curiosity). They would not last more than six months of physical abuse a genuine mobile user can provide. Yes, I can save money buying a cheaper plastic laptop but what use is it when things fall apart for me after moderate use? I don't think the MBA is expensive considering how well-built it is. If "cheap" is all you're concerned with, there are plenty of options. If durability, quality and all-around MOBILE usefulness is what is important, pay the extra to know you're getting quality.

I'm willing to bet most people b******g about the Air have never actually used it for more than the five minutes at an Apple store and came to a conclusion. You're a vocal minority that for whatever reason, seem to place an unusual amount of hatred for this particular product when in fact, it is selling well (regardless of your opinion) and to my knowledge, most MBA owners are quite happy with it. Why?? Because they know that value comes not just from the cost of the internal components but from the entire package and usability.

It's not meant for you. Honestly, quit your whining and get over it. Apple did a great job with the MBA. I am saying that from actual real-world experience spanning many months and 8+ hours of day use from it. Sure, it is not for everyone but what is? The MBP is not for me yet I don't go around whining that it's not for me. Just move on. If you're an AAPL owner, sell and go away. I'm happily holding on to my AAPL holdings and my MBA.

The airs will take over the pro line, as SSD will eventually take over all computers. Ive been waiting for this, I cant and am waiting for the 17". Sexy.

On storage:

SSD is undoubtably the future, and waiting only for prices to come down. I could see the optical drive being dropped in tandem with the adoption of SSD as standard, making the MacBook and MacBook Pro's the thinnest laptop computers with no moving parts.

Apple would likely offer integrated storage with a modified chipset to optimize performance (and leverage economies of scale in their iPod/iPhone storage business), even though the rest of the industry would balk at first at the idea of not being able to upgrade the internal drives.

That is, the storage memory chips would be integrated on the motherboard to reduce the physical space requirements, with the downside that you would not be able to "swap out" your hard drive. Like an iPod, you would buy the machine with the desired storage.

Since there are no moving parts, there would be little reason to have a removable storage drive, as they would be less likely to fail (and besides, OS X has integrated backups). The advantage would be that the form factor would be significantly thinner, and lighter (no drive chassis, connectors, etc.), as currently the optical drive and internal storage are two of the largest components after the battery (and look what they just did with the MacBook Pro 17").

On size:

Apple aren't going to release a laptop smaller than the 13" MacBook/Air. Any device smaller than this will be handled by the iPod/iPhone team, and would likely be a larger iPhone-like device.

Yup, in this age of cloud computing (an age that will never come to an end or become obsolete) and a dubious economy, a smaller EEE PC like Air with a 10" screen, a FULL SIZE keyboard that extends to the edges and all the wireless connectivity you could wish for is what we need. A built in HSDPA modem would help!

Not all entirely true and the MBA is still slower than a MB. Plus SSD goes in both the netbook and the MBA. As I say, people expect a performance drop when using an ultra-portable as you do using an iphone.

The question is, is it worth paying nearly 6 times more to get a bigger screen and maybe 2-3 times faster performance when most people are unlikely to require the extra performance on the go?


Ok but we can do the same comparison between apps people use now and apps people used 3-4 years ago. Back then, we had maybe single 1.5GHz G4s vs now with Core 2 Duos. I can't say that web browsing, text editing, email, SD video etc improves vastly going from the old machine to the new one.


The netbooks look cool. Check out the new one:



Yes it looks very similar to a MBA but now it's not a selling point for the MBA. It is also portable.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't value these things over portability, I just don't think they should pay more for them.


I think comparing a netbook at 1/6th the price to the MBA is a valid comparison.


Even assuming it doesn't last 6 months, which isn't true in general, you can buy 5 and still be cheaper than the MBA.


Ok that's fine that you're happy with the machine and it fits your needs. It's a machine that tries to balance decent performance while being extremely light and portable. I think that the number of people who need that extra performance on the go is very small. If the price difference was maybe 50-100%, I'd feel differently but at nearly 600%, I just don't see the huge benefits and the MBA's disappointing sales records show other people feel the same.

As always, people will be defensive about their own purchase, I would be too and if MBA owners feel that it was worth the money then I don't have a problem with that.

How are you so sure that the MBA has dissapointing sales, where are the sales figures?

I agree. I don't see the point in a machine with a 9", 10" or 11" screen. Sure, it's smaller, but you can't put it in your pocket, and the screen and keyboard comfort levels go way down.

The only advantage would be price, and I don't think that's the Apple way. Though Apple should get a better entry into the $999 price point, perhaps with a black MacBook instead of the white one which looks like crap with any dirt on it. If they can manage aluminum, all the better.

I do hope a 7" pad comes out; that's an entirely different class of device because you can put it in your coat pocket. It would serve as a browser and book reader, and you could type with reasonable comfort on it (for a pocketable device). It could even have a physical keyboard built in to a detachable cover. This would be a bluetooth device and would attach magnetically as a cover to protect the glass when in your pocket or backpack.

Appleinsider said: "A Chinese-language blog with a debatable track record claims Apple is working on a 15-inch MacBook Air with more information to come in the "second half" of this year."

So you figured you'd post it anyway.

Tickled me that did

Great! + with an integrated larger battery. I can see it happening quite soon as the unibody manufacturing process seems to be designed for change

Also, it'd make more sense from a green perspective as Apple is gonna sell more 15 than 17 inchies!

Thank you so much for the asinine tone. It really makes me want to hear you out.


Alright, I stand corrected, though most consumers don't have any idea (or interest in) hacking their netbook to run Mac OS X. Windows XP can't compete with Leopard's features, reliability and usability (which I'm sure you're aware of).


Ok, I should have said many netbooks have pathetic storage because they make use of piddly solid-state drives that are dwarfed by Apple's iPods and iPhones built-in storage.


That's good that yours does. But from my understanding, most still use cathode tubes. The Air obviously uses a bigger display, but also a higher resolution one, which raises the price tag.


I was being a bit facetious, sheesh!

With that said, I could totally see people developing eyestrain from using an 8" to 10" screen and wrist/hand cramps from a micro keyboard.

Just because those processors are no longer exclusive to the MacBook Air doesn't mean they benefit from the same economies of scale full-size processors do.


Yeah, that's all I meant: dollars per GB.

I was never arguing that the MacBook Air was faster than the MacBook. I was arguing the MacBook Air, with its use of Intel's miniaturized Intel Core 2 Duo, is faster than netbooks, which make use of Intel's slower Atom and Celeron M processors.


Yes, both have SSDs. I said that! But most netbooks that make use of SSDs use low-capacity 2GB to 8GB drives.


Unless you're from the future, you have no clue what applications of the future will require in terms of performance. Nobody does.


The fact the netbook you posted kind of looks like the Air doesn't mean most netbooks look as good. The MacBook Air's looks are still a selling point because the one you posted is nowhere near as elegant and if I'm not mistaken, it's made out of plastic, not aluminum.

Since this thread has some references to an Apple "netbook", here's Isamu Sanada's last vision of it.
This time it takes a few clues from the Sony VAIO P series.
The trackpad idea is... interesting.



Full size pictures here.

Have a nice week-end.

I'd still argue that a 10" machine with a 75% keyboard would still be far more comfortable and practical than typing on a touch, iPhone or a tablet. Even if you thought the tablet would have a physical keyboard as mentioned, it would still have to be 13" to be full size, and by your account, comfortable, thus rendering it completely unable to fit in a pocket.

Sure, this is coming from someone who still doesn't get the appeal of a tablet in the first place. From a "pocketability" standpoint, unless I"m wearing a coat, the iPhone isn't very pocketable, which means I'm out of luck in the summer. A tablet would just be bigger, and less portable, and the last think I would want to have to do is type on one.

As for a 10" Air, I'm all for it. I've tried other netbooks, and I don't have a problem with the keyboard size. Sony has been putting compact Vaios out like this for a while, so a more premium machine with a compact keyboard isn't new. And yeah, you couldn't put it in a pocket, but everytime you make something smaller it inherently gets more portable. After all, this is the logic behind all laptop design, especially the whole point of the air. If we didn't care about the actual size of something that wasn't small enough for a pocket, then we'd walk around with laptops that were 2" thick

You don't type on an iPhone/iPod touch virtual keyboard with all your fingers on the virtual keys as you would with a regular keyboard, do you? No. That's why it works: you type with your thumbs.

I agree on the mythical tablet because it would require the user to type with all their fingers on a big, non-tactile piece of glass.


You're kidding, right?

Maybe its just me, but typing on an iPhone keyboard with any of my fingers, let alone thumbs, usually results in the wrong keys getting hit. The keys are too small. If they were tactile, it would be easier, but with a screen it doesn't work. Besides, even if you're used to typing on an iPhone, I don't think you'd want to do it for anything serious. An ultraportable would be more practical for wordy emails or actual word processing.


Nope, especially when you throw some of the shield/covers on the thing. Also, keep in mind pocketability to me doesn't mean you can fit it in your pocket, it means it can stay there comfortably, even when you sit down. the iPhone is just a little big for me based upon that.

I agree with you if price (and price only) was the only difference between the two.


That's very true. But to many people, downtime costs a lot more than the money one would save having a cheap laptop. If one were to fail at the worst possible time where I could not buy one of the cheap replacements, the money I personally would lose would have made up the difference. Just because it's cheap, doesn't mean it's the best value. An Item that is constantly missed here. Perhaps you're recommending I just go and buy 5 replacements at the same time and keep at least one additional unit with me in case it fails? Doesn't sound too portable for me.


This remark has been said constantly on other threads since the beginning of time. Please back up that statement with actual proof please? Even Apple's own figures shows the MBA as one of its top sellers. Apparently, you have documentation to the contrary. We are waiting for it.


This has absolutely nothing to do with my defending my purchase. You and other individuals press your beliefs that this is a failed product and that no one would in their right mind would want to buy one with the cheaper options out there. I offered you real-world proof that the MBA is an excellent product and has exceeded even my own (business-use) expectations. You have different standards to what laptops should be. I can respect that. My standards are different than yours. But they are not any less important.

My previous laptops were cheaper than the MBA. In fact, my MBA was the most expensive one I've purchased yet. My other laptops would have subtle failures on them that show up slowly over time. Loose connections, faulty hardware, sub-standard quality which over time manifests itself into a broken machine. They are not built for true mobility for the long run. Even with a 600% difference, there is a cost associated with cheap machines that you do not factor in. The MBA is for folks that understand that. There is a high-cost to low prices.

Maybe if you're trying to blind type on the thing. The other reason it works is because you are actually looking at the keys (or just barely above them) as you type. It also learns your mistakes the more you use it.

But you're trying to compare your experience with computer keyboards to a virtual keyboard on a much smaller touch screen phone. I'd suggest comparing it to the keyboards of other, similar devices: BlackBerrys, WinMobile phones, etc. that have physical or virtual keyboards.


I wasn't arguing that the iPhone is better or worse for long typing sessions versus a netbook really. Neither are ideal, but one isn't trying to offer a shrunken computer experience (the iPhone) and one is (the netbook).


Then don't use a big clunky case. Get one that's slim, or use a stick-on screen protector, or just be careful with your device. My 5.5 generation black iPod video was known for notoriously getting a scratched up front (because they still used that plastic) and screen (because they're plastic as well). I have zero scratches on the front because I use the included cloth slip and when I don't, I usually put it in my pocket with the screen facing my leg. The iPhone uses a more scratch-resistant glass screen.


Mmm, that would have helped. Because when most people hear pocketable, they think "can fit in my pocket," the end.

There are a number of people I see around with iPhones and I don't see them having to pull their iPhones out of their pockets every time they sit down. Perhaps you're a small child or wear really tight pants? If so, that's your problem.

The bottom line for me on your arguments is that you still don't seem to want to allow for people thinking anything different about these products than yourself. What you value in terms of features is not always going to be the same as what others value and I just think you are wrong when you imply that people don't like the MacBook Air or are foolish to use it.

Okay I was being nice cause you are an older poster and a moderator etc. but you are just being a total ass here and basically making crap up.

The MacBook Air sold extremely well at first and has now tapered off since the new Macbooks came out. This is neither unusual nor surprising in any way. They literally flew off the shelves when they came out. To characterise the sales as "disappointing" is both unnecessarily vague and misleading at the same time.


And here you go so far as to imply that people are only defending the MacBook Air due to some kind of buyer remorse or a failure to be mature and own up to what they "really" believe in their heart of hearts or something???

What an ass you are. What a colossal, full-of-yourself smug, jerky thing to say.

You shouldn't be a moderator here if you are only capable as being as crass and insulting as some of the worst of posters on the forum.

What's so hard about simply agreeing that some people think the MacBook Air is a great, solid product that fits their needs and is worth the price? We are all just idiots cause we don't agree with you?

A 15" Macbook Air. I'm sure the market would prefer a $599 Macbook Mini before that. I know I would. A 9" to 10" LED size would be great for the kids and replace the portable DVD player.

You think Apple would put a DVD player in something quite a bit smaller than the Air?

I think you're right, and that the key line is "suit their needs". I thought the Air would suit my needs perfectly as a gig- and on the go laptop. It's cool, robust, light, got a great screen and with a flash drive (I take it) pretty reliable. Though it turned out they priced the whole thing as a premium product, and plus it lacked FireWire that is part of my current list of needs... so no Air for me.

A future 15" air? I don't know if they'll sell more computers in total with two Air configurations available.. Perhaps a few.. but I don't personally think it's needed. They'd sell more of them if its cost actually reflected its place in the Mac lineup.

What happens when the MBA fails and you have to send it to Apple for up to a week? Price is not always a good metric for failure rate - people tend to post pictures of the Bugatti Veron on the back of a breakdown truck to demonstrate this. I'd actually say that the netbook has less chance of failing given that it has a low power, low heat CPU. The MBA is running a much faster CPU in a small enclosure.

You wouldn't carry two netbooks with you but you could have a backup at home and you'd have at most a few hours downtime. As someone else mentioned, you'd also worry less about knocking a netbook around. If I had an expensive ultra-portable, I'd actually try to avoid taking it places where it might be damaged for example on a flight where someone could spill a drink on it or in a train where someone could stand on the bag assuming it wasn't in a hard case.


There were comparison figures between shipments of MBA and Macbooks and the MBA was only a fraction of them. I think they were 150,000 per month. The newest figures are clearer though and posted on AI showing that Acer has pushed Apple down a spot largely due to their netbooks.

Success of a product depends on what Apple expect from it of course and it's clear that high volume is not necessarily what they call a success. Apple would never declare any of their products a failure publicly even if it wasn't what they expected. They'd just try to keep the figures as hidden away as possible like any other company would. Nonetheless, the actual figures are not what matters to me but the following.


Not quite, I don't think it's a market that is nearly as large as the netbook market. Going after the high end market means they probably won't ever aim for the larger market as the products would conflict. This means people who would love to have a Mac netbook are left disappointed that Apple won't cater to them. I think the better move is to satisfy the larger audience.

Apple try hard to move into the lives of families and students with their software products and yet they price themselves right out of those markets with products that satisfy a whole other group of people.

Ideally, they just need to have more products. Sony have high end ultra-portables and the Vaio P seems to be their effort in moving towards the netbook price range.

I used to have a blackberry, and I can say that typing on it was quite a bit better than the iPhone. I think I just have a preference for physical keys that have a tactile "click" to them. Certainly, the iPhone trumps my old blackberry in just about every way, mind you, but that's just my preference.


Me in tight pants would not be a good thing. I've just always wanted something that was comfortable in a front pocket, and haven't found much (I'm still holding out for the Zoolander phone). The iPhone would fit fine in a back pocket, but then you end up sitting on it when you sit down. A phone the size of an iPod nano? perfect, but I don't think anyone wants to start that conversation here.

When you make a ton of assumptions and wrong statements, you should be prepared for that.


Two non sequiturs in one paragraph. You claimed that netbooks booted slowly. I pointed out that that is not the case with either OS X or XP. Now you come back and say, well, they don't know how to hack OS X and XP sucks.


Define "many." All of the netbook makers have hard drive models. Many netbook models have 160GB options from the factory, which gives them more storage than the Macbook Air. If you want to spend $70 and a few minutes, upgrade to 320GB, since these are standard 2.5" laptop drives, not 1.8". Or go to 500GB for a little over $100, which isn't even possible in an Air owner's wildest dreams. These drives are, of course, 5400rpm, not the "piddly" 4200rpm 120GB drive that the Air ships with. Some newer, higher-end netbooks actually have both an SSD and HD.


Again, wrong. HP Mini-Note uses LED. As does Dell Mini. And Asus Aspire One. And eeePC. And MSI. That covers all the major players in the netbook market.


You mean you can totally assume it. Have you any evidence to back up your assumptions? There are a lot of netbook users out there. I haven't heard of anyone complaining about carpal tunnel syndrome. I switch back and forth between full-size and the slightly undersize keyboard on my netbook without any problems. No cramps at all. I dare say that I would have greater likelihood of getting a cramp from holding an iPhone in my left hand while typing a few hundred words on its tiny keyboard over ten minutes. Eyestrain would come from a small pixel pitch, and the netbooks actually have about the same pitch as the 13" MB displays. Even the iPhone has a smaller pixel pitch. How about the top of the line Dell notebook, with a stunning 1920x1080 resolution in a 16" screen? Want to claim eyestrain on either of those, too?


The point people are making is that most users don't need Core 2 Duo on the go. In fact, it's no stretch to say most users don't need it, period. Casual users, who comprise the vast majority of the population, don't need a lot of power, ever.


Programmers would have users screaming if they suddenly decided that web browsers must have 2GB of physical RAM and a Core 2 Quad to run on. Again, casual users use applications with system requirements that don't rocket upward over time.


If you're interested in looks alone, that's fine. But that machine is actually in many ways more capable than the Air. It's the MSI X-Slim X320. In some ways, it's not a netbook. It has a dual-core Atom and integrated graphics, but other than that, nothing in common with netbooks. It has the same size screen as the Air, two battery sizes for a rated 5 or 10 hours of battery life, and you might have noticed that it has three USB ports vs. the Air's one, plus an Ethernet port and an SD card reader. It's about the same thickness and weight as the Air for almost half the price. And yes, you are mistaken, it does use aluminum for most of its casing.

I don't think there is a continuum of smallness. There are sweet spots. Pocket size is a sweet spot. Notebooks, which are essentially the size of of a sheet of office paper, or an office folder, are another sweet spot. Thickness matters within this form factor, as does weight. But reducing the form factor to something non-standard doesn't really do anything for you.

Netbooks don't do much for you in terms of size. They sell because they are very cheap. They are small not out of a philosophical or design reason. They are small because small screens are cheap.

The proof is that ultra small notebooks are not a new category, and they never sold well before. They sell well now not because the format suddenly makes sense, but because its the cheapest way to get a portable computer of any kind. A large part of the market is about price, price, price, no matter what. This is why Walmart exists.

Apple has been going in the other direction for some time. Big displays, higher quality, higher performance. They don't even make 17" iMacs anymore, not to mention 15" ones.

Now you can argue that Apple should make cheap machines to get that segment of the market. But Jobs has quite clearly said he's not interested in the people who put price as their #1 priority. He is right. The minute Apple starts doing that, they won't be able to sustain their engineering and software development costs. Price-driven consumers are never satisfied, and there is always a cheaper supplier. They will drive you all the way to the bottom. Look at how PC makers are doing. This is a battle Apple cannot engage in: it cannot win.

To the extent they enter the netbook market, it will be with a different class of device. A device that makes sense on its own, not because of price, and that adds a specific value to buyers.

So basically you think that those of us who like the Air should go pound sand, so that Apple can sell crappy plastic junk with tiny screens and shrunken keyboards, because somehow this is the same segment of the market?

These are COMPLETELY different market segments. Portability is pretty much the only feature they have in common. I bought an Air and the netbooks never entered my mind.

Netbooks aren't a hit because they are portable. They are a hit because they are cheap. Yet another ridiculous price point in the long-running race to the bottom that is the PC industry outside of Apple.

Cheap netbooks look and feel like disposable crap. You want something decent in the ultraportable space and you have to go to OQO, for example, which cost around $1K depending on the model.

It's a blatant copy of the Air. My point being, Apple did the design and development work. I value that, and I'm fine with paying for it. If we all bought copies, soon there will be no originals and the industry would be stuck again recycling old formats forever.

I also value OS/X over Windows. The MSI will come with Windows, perhaps Linux also. Windows stinks, and you need to spend money in exchange for no added functionality. Right off the bat you need to buy an anti-virus and renew it every year. If you get Vista Starter, common in cheap machines. you need to upgrade in order to run more than three apps at a time and get rid of the "Starter Edition" watermark.

When MSI actually does some innovation we can talk. Right now, you are basically saying a Rolex knockoff bought on the street is cheaper than the real thing. Well, duh!

This is why I bring up the new Vaio P - the price has nothing to do with netbooks - anything in the $800-1200 range is out of that catergory The press has been going nuts over it, and people seem very interested. Will it sell well? Time will tell us, but the initial buzz seems to to prove that people are willing to pay for a machine that has a netbook form factor but with more premium parts (and prices).

Netbooks, and ultraportables, seem to work out well for people all around my city. People seem to want something that's larger than an iPhone, but small enough that you don't need a dedicated laptop bag to carry. Netbooks can be thrown in a purse, or man-purse for that matter, so it doesn't shock me that I see them all over coffee shops. Most people still seem to have a desktop for household tasks, they just want something they can casually browse on, email, etc. This is why I'd like to see a 9"-10" Air. Even if you charged $1000-1100 for it, I'm still sure people would go out and buy it.

I was ignorant. You were being a douche bag by choice. There's no excuse for being a douche bag, especially to someone you don't know.


Let's see, who brought up that they could hack their netbook to run Leopard?

I said "I stand corrected." Then I noted that most people don't have the slightest idea how to hack OS X, thus bringing up that you could was pointless.

Windows XP may have around the same boot time, but it doesn't match up to Leopard in features, reliability, etc. That was an aside which I should have made clearer, sorry.


Hmm, maybe I am a bit behind the times. But I remember many early netbooks - as in mid to early 2008 and back - making use of low-capacity SSDs, like the EeePC. Is this a recent development? I am being serious.


Now, yes. What about the timeframe I'm talking about above?


No, I can see people getting eyestrain from using tiny screens for long periods of time. I can see people getting cramped hands from using keyboards that are smaller than stand, full-size keyboards. I'll add I can also see people making more typing errors thanks to the tiny, poorly spaced out keys.


Oh, I need evidence for logical conjectures?


Sorry, that's not true. Netbooks haven't been around that long, nor have they gained any real popularity until recently. Netbooks represent a miniscule niche that's eating into similarly priced full-size laptops.


I already said I was being facetious.


I don't think I need to tell you this but...you are only one person.


The iPhone isn't marketed nor is it designed to be a full-on computer. It's actually meant to sync with a computer.


An 8" to 10" display with ~1024x768 resolution has about the same pixel pitch as a 1440x900 13.3" MacBook Air (or MacBook) display?

If Dell has a laptop with a display of that size at that resolution, yeah, that could potentially result in eyestrain as well.


Did you see Apple's Macworld keynote last week where it was noted Macs are selling over twice as fast as the rest of the industry? How do you explain that?

Obviously not everyone needs that much performance, but many obviously see something worthwhile in a machine that can do more than just the basics.


I'm not. I was responding to Marvin's very specific comment about looks:

(I was not trying to address or imply that I was trying to address that second sentence about portability.)


Obviously if it's not entirely aluminum then I'm not entirely mistaken, am I?