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Possible iMac quad-core CPUs; Mac clone maker blocked; more - Page 2

post #41 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by skittlebrau79 View Post

BTW you can get a Core i7 system with 3GB RAM, 1TB HD and 20" monitor for the price of a low end iMac--and it easily outperforms the Mac Pros which retail for $2799. Now imagine if Apple uses these outdated processors for the next iMac, and waits another 6 months to update the iMac.

There is no, repeat, no way that you can get a 130 watt TDP cpu in the iMac. Not.. going.. to.. happen. Core i7 will never see the inside of an iMac.

Why should users have to wait until Intel release low power desk top nehalem cpus or worse yet, mobile nehalem cpus? That is months away. Who knows they may delay the release of these chips.

The low power desk top penryn cpus are the best available cpu for the iMac at the moment. They need to get it into the iMac as soon as possible.
post #42 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

mmmm ... I like to think I have a pretty good mind, I am fascinated by the events unfolding and the world wide interest.

He is just another president much like the ones that went before him. I just can't see how a reasonable person would be fascinated with an unproven individual who advocates radical and destructive policies.
Quote:
Was that a cheap political shot or am I missing a joke?

Well your asking kinda makes my point doesn't it? Sadly there is no joke here and I'm really hoping that people like you can start to think for yourself instead of allowing yourself to be manipulated by the mass media.



Dave
post #43 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

There is no, repeat, no way that you can get a 130 watt TDP cpu in the iMac. Not.. going.. to.. happen. Core i7 will never see the inside of an iMac.

First, 130 watts is doable. It is simply and engineering problem.

As to never I think you know better than that
Quote:
Why should users have to wait until Intel release low power desk top nehalem cpus or worse yet, mobile nehalem cpus? That is months away. Who knows they may delay the release of these chips.

Actually I'm not sure why everyone is so concerned about the iMac when the Mini needs updating far sooner. Tech wise the iMac is no where near as bad as the Mini.
Quote:

The low power desk top penryn cpus are the best available cpu for the iMac at the moment. They need to get it into the iMac as soon as possible.

Apple certainly needs a low end machine for these chips I'm just not sure the iMac is the best place to use them. I still see the need for Apple to address the widening performance gap between the Mac Pro and the rest of the line up. Unfortunately these new chips aren't going to fill that gap well. But yeah they will be a big improvement over the current mobile hardware.





Dave
post #44 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

First, 130 watts is doable. It is simply and engineering problem.

You are correct. But we also know that such engineering would result in compromises in form factor and noise that Apple aren't going to make. It would be a complete reversal of where the iMac is heading. Not very likely IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Actually I'm not sure why everyone is so concerned about the iMac when the Mini needs updating far sooner. Tech wise the iMac is no where near as bad as the Mini.

No arguments here. But the iMac is a more important product for Apple. Its likely their biggest selling desktop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Apple certainly needs a low end machine for these chips I'm just not sure the iMac is the best place to use them. I still see the need for Apple to address the widening performance gap between the Mac Pro and the rest of the line up. Unfortunately these new chips aren't going to fill that gap well. But yeah they will be a big improvement over the current mobile hardware.

I actually think they fill the gap nicely. A 2.6 ghz quad core machine with the new NVIDIA graphics should be very nice in the middle of the iMac lineup. The 2.8 ghz quad at the top is also very nice. I think the entry level iMac could get the 2.3 quad core cpu or a faster dual core cpu and still be a nice upgrade.
post #45 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

He is just another president much like the ones that went before him. I just can't see how a reasonable person would be fascinated with an unproven individual who advocates radical and destructive policies.

No, he isn't. Despite being the first the president (that we know of) to not be fully Caucasian, he is coming in on the heals of a president with a very poor rating among the people and in the middle of a worldwide economic crisis that seems to have been mostly caused by actions of the administration before him.

As for unproven, he is not some stranger off the street. While he has not proven himself as CiC of armed forces, he has proven himself in many other areas. Just like Tim Cook has proven himself in other areas at Apple, despite having not yet being CEO, yet I'm happy for the choice and expect Apple to flourish with him at the reigns.

Even change in itself is exciting and fascinating, when the previous situation was so bad that I felt I had to tell some people in some countries that I was Canadian, just to avoid lengthy diatribes about the US government, the president, the war in Iraq, etc.

Does that meant that Obama will be a great president? Of course not, but this is a fascinating time in the history of the US.
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post #46 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

No, he isn't. Despite being the first the president (that we know of) to not be fully Caucasian, he is coming in on the heals of a president with a very poor rating among the people and in the middle of a worldwide economic crisis that seems to have been mostly caused by actions of the administration before him.

As for unproven, he is not some stranger off the street. While he has not proven himself as CiC of armed forces, he has proven himself in many other areas. Just like Tim Cook has proven himself in other areas at Apple, despite having not yet being CEO, yet I'm happy for the choice and expect Apple to flourish with him at the reigns.

Even change in itself is exciting and fascinating, when the previous situation was so bad that I felt I had to tell some people in some countries that I was Canadian, just to avoid lengthy diatribes about the US government, the president, the war in Iraq, etc.

Does that meant that Obama will be a great president? Of course not, but this is a fascinating time in the history of the US.

To me, this comes across as a racist view which I know Liberals hate to have thrown back at them. All of a sudden there's something special about the President's skin tone. Can it get any shallower than that? Also, let's not forget that neither of Barak Obama's parents were African-Americans but somehow he is.

Secondly, what actions did the previous administration take to cause this "worldwide economic crisis"?
post #47 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudson1 View Post

All of a sudden there's something special about the President's skin tone. Can it get any shallower than that?

Does it make him a better or worse person? No, but the fact that the US, with its history of racism does make this a milestone election. Their are many Americans alive today that have experienced racism directly. Slavery may have been abolished generations ago, but that did not automatically make everyone equal. This is a landmark event.

Quote:
Also, let's not forget that neither of Barak Obama's parents were African-Americans but somehow he is.

One parent was directly from Africa and he was born in America.
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post #48 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Does it make him a better or worse person? No, but the fact that the US, with its history of racism does make this a milestone election. Their are many Americans alive today that have experienced racism directly. Slavery may have been abolished generations ago, but that did not automatically make everyone equal. This is a landmark event.


One parent was directly from Africa and he was born in America.

No answer to my question above?
post #49 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudson1 View Post

No answer to my question above?

If you have no idea at this point about how poor decisions are finally catching up with us and affecting the rest of the world as a result then me paraphrasing it on a technical forum will not lead to any understanding on your part. So, no, I won't spend my day responding to you just so you can scratch your head in confusion about issues that the average person has been keeping themselves abreast of.
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post #50 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

If you have no idea at this point about how poor decisions are finally catching up with us and affecting the rest of the world as a result then me paraphrasing it on a technical forum will not lead to any understanding on your part. So, no, I won't spend my day responding to you just so you can scratch your head in confusion about issues that the average person has been keeping themselves abreast of.

Nice response. I have plenty of ideas but I wanted to hear yours since you claimed to have some good ones. Are you sure we won't understand what you might have to say?
post #51 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudson1 View Post

Nice response. I have plenty of ideas but I wanted to hear yours since you claimed to have some good ones. Are you sure we won't understand what you might have to say?

My apologizes for assuming that your question was stated because you are not aware. It seems now you just wanted to hear my side of it.

As for me being to illustrate all the aspects that led to the current economic situation, I fear that I can do it justice. It would take too much time for me to write it all out and I'm sure their are better sources on the net that have already done a much better job than I could ever do.
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post #52 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

There is no, repeat, no way that you can get a 130 watt TDP cpu in the iMac. Not.. going.. to.. happen. Core i7 will never see the inside of an iMac.

Why should users have to wait until Intel release low power desk top nehalem cpus or worse yet, mobile nehalem cpus? That is months away. Who knows they may delay the release of these chips.

The low power desk top penryn cpus are the best available cpu for the iMac at the moment. They need to get it into the iMac as soon as possible.

I never said you could get a Core i7 into an iMac. However, that doesn't change facts. The low-power Penryn CPUs mentioned in this article are old tech, and computers available for $500 less than the iMac already outperform these quad core Penryn CPUs by 5-25%.

It all comes down to Apple's lack of a consumer tower. The current desktop CPUs with Nehalem in them sell for <= $1000, and are not meant to compete with the Mac Pro (though because the Mac Pro hasn't been updated in ages, they do outperform the Mac Pros in several areas). However, they are meant to compete with the iMac, and they already blow the iMac out of the water.

Apple has chosen form over function--in order to make the iMac sleek and slim, they eliminated any hope of putting a modern CPU into it. Which means if/when Apple finally releases Penryn quad CPU-based iMacs, you will be buying a computer that is already outperformed by computers selling for $400 less. That's sad really, and only perpetuates the "Apple tax" and "Macs are slower than PCs" myths that were/are oh-so-popular. And what's even more sad is that given Apple's rate of refresh, those quad-based Penryn iMacs will be around for another 8 months, in which time i7 parts running at 3.2GHz will be available, further widening the performance gap.

What's really sad is the Mac Pro, but that's another post entirely...but anyway, I'm not disagreeing with you. I am just saying it's really sad to see Apple's only viable consumer desktop blown away in terms of price/performance.
post #53 of 63
I think it's possible that Apple might not choose the Core i7 for the iMac for one reason: the 130 watt thermal design power (TDP), which means the cooling system may not fit inside the standard iMac case design. They may go with the Core 2 Quad Q9400S or Q9550S CPU's, which have 65W TDP and can use the current iMac's CPU cooling design. The Mac Pro--with much more space for proper CPU cooling systems--might go with a Gainestown core Xeon CPU with 80W TDP.
post #54 of 63
Well the Core i7 can't go into the iMac unless 3 things happen. (1) The iMac gets a radical enclosure redesign (2) Apple develops an advanced cooling system that can fit in the current enclosure or a slightly modified enclosure or (3) Intel creates a special run of Core i7 chips with a better TDP exclusively for Apple. However unlikely, those options are possible so never say never.

My bet is that Apple waits and gets first dibs on mobile or 32nm versions of the Core i7 or Apple waits for the Core i5.
post #55 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by skittlebrau79 View Post

I never said you could get a Core i7 into an iMac. However, that doesn't change facts. The low-power Penryn CPUs mentioned in this article are old tech, and computers available for $500 less than the iMac already outperform these quad core Penryn CPUs by 5-25%.

It all comes down to Apple's lack of a consumer tower. The current desktop CPUs with Nehalem in them sell for <= $1000, and are not meant to compete with the Mac Pro (though because the Mac Pro hasn't been updated in ages, they do outperform the Mac Pros in several areas). However, they are meant to compete with the iMac, and they already blow the iMac out of the water.

Apple has chosen form over function--in order to make the iMac sleek and slim, they eliminated any hope of putting a modern CPU into it. Which means if/when Apple finally releases Penryn quad CPU-based iMacs, you will be buying a computer that is already outperformed by computers selling for $400 less. That's sad really, and only perpetuates the "Apple tax" and "Macs are slower than PCs" myths that were/are oh-so-popular. And what's even more sad is that given Apple's rate of refresh, those quad-based Penryn iMacs will be around for another 8 months, in which time i7 parts running at 3.2GHz will be available, further widening the performance gap.

What's really sad is the Mac Pro, but that's another post entirely...but anyway, I'm not disagreeing with you. I am just saying it's really sad to see Apple's only viable consumer desktop blown away in terms of price/performance.

Don't act this is a new phenomenon or some genius revelation. AIOs have always cost more for the power, the way notebooks cost more than desktops for the power included. Apple isn't trying to build the fastest machine they possibly can, they are trying to build the fastest machine they can within the confines of the iMac design.

You can call it form-over-function, but form is a function. the AIO concept is very appealing to many, as the increased sales of the iMac has shown. By your assessment of the Apple Tax, anyone that pays for an OS or buying any notebook is paying too much HW and SW when their are cheaper alternatives that do basically the same stuff. Hell, even buying a new CPU is a ripoff as you can get by with older processors that are sold for a much lower price.
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post #56 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by skittlebrau79 View Post

... The current desktop CPUs with Nehalem in them sell for <= $1000, and are not meant to compete with the Mac Pro (though because the Mac Pro hasn't been updated in ages, they do outperform the Mac Pros in several areas). However, they are meant to compete with the iMac, and they already blow the iMac out of the water. ...
.

The iMac has always trailed desk top tower pcs in terms of performance, at least since the Intel transition. By going with low power desk top cpus at least they narrow the gap somewhat. Frankly I think its a positive that they might transition the iMac to a desk top cpu. Then they won't lag pcs as bad as they would if they only used mobile cpu parts.
post #57 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

Frankly I think its a positive that they might transition the iMac to a desk top cpu. Then they won't lag pcs as bad as they would if they only used mobile cpu parts.

I've been waiting for this for a long time. Since Intel is now making low TDP desktop-grade Quads specifically for AIOs, it seems pretty obvious that this is another example of Apple saying "What can you do for us in this area?" Who else makes AIOs and how many do they sell in comparison to Apple's iMac. Since there are three models slated from Intel, I would expect these to arrive in the iMac, but I wonder when they will arrive (eg: the next revision or the one after) and how good with GC in SL be off the starting line to make use of the Quads.
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post #58 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Outsider View Post

Well the Core i7 can't go into the iMac unless 3 things happen. (1) The iMac gets a radical enclosure redesign (2) Apple develops an advanced cooling system that can fit in the current enclosure or a slightly modified enclosure or (3) Intel creates a special run of Core i7 chips with a better TDP exclusively for Apple. However unlikely, those options are possible so never say never.

Hence my suggestion that Apple may use the Core 2 Quad CPU's I mentioned earlier. Because the TDP is only 65 watts on some Core 2 Quad models, that will allow Apple to keep the current iMac case design; otherwise, it would require more exotic (and much more expensive!) cooling systems or an equally expensive redesign of the entire iMac case itself.
post #59 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by SactoMan01 View Post

Hence my suggestion that Apple may use the Core 2 Quad CPU's I mentioned earlier. Because the TDP is only 65 watts on some Core 2 Quad models, that will allow Apple to keep the current iMac case design; otherwise, it would require more exotic (and much more expensive!) cooling systems or an equally expensive redesign of the entire iMac case itself.

Well it stands to reason that Apple will update the iMac case at some point anyway. It's their choice to modify it to be more desktop processor friendly. Most people seem to think they will just go thinner. They may have a surprise in store.
post #60 of 63
What about next Tuesday?
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post #61 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Outsider View Post

Well it stands to reason that Apple will update the iMac case at some point anyway. It's their choice to modify it to be more desktop processor friendly. Most people seem to think they will just go thinner. They may have a surprise in store.

If Apple is willing to do this, one way they could go to the 130 W TDP Core i7 CPU on the iMac is to use an improved form heat pipe cooling; if they can make the improved heat pipe cooling system fit inside a case about the same dimensions as the current iMac case without interfering with the other components in the case.
post #62 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

You can call it form-over-function, but form is a function. the AIO concept is very appealing to many, as the increased sales of the iMac has shown. By your assessment of the Apple Tax, anyone that pays for an OS or buying any notebook is paying too much HW and SW when their are cheaper alternatives that do basically the same stuff. Hell, even buying a new CPU is a ripoff as you can get by with older processors that are sold for a much lower price.

Yeah, but, at the moment the AIO is all apple offers anywhere near its price and performance range.

To someone who just cares about what's on the screen, and not what the screen is on, they're either horribly overpriced or disappointingly underpowered. And the Mini just doesn't have the specs to do certain home use activities well, and its price is closer to what you would expect to pay for desktop equivalents of a mid-range iMac.

Unless, of course, you simply want to ignore that whole market segment for whom AIO is not a desired feature. But the fact that Apple hasn't released a desktop with equivalent specs or prices in the iMac range suggests that even they believe that a significant fraction of iMac buyers are simply putting up with the AIO design and its extra cost in order to get what they consider is the real value of an Apple system: reliability, usability, and good support.
post #63 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by hbar View Post

Yeah, but, at the moment the AIO is all apple offers anywhere near its price and performance range.

To someone who just cares about what's on the screen, and not what the screen is on, they're either horribly overpriced or disappointingly underpowered. And the Mini just doesn't have the specs to do certain home use activities well, and its price is closer to what you would expect to pay for desktop equivalents of a mid-range iMac.

Unless, of course, you simply want to ignore that whole market segment for whom AIO is not a desired feature. But the fact that Apple hasn't released a desktop with equivalent specs or prices in the iMac range suggests that even they believe that a significant fraction of iMac buyers are simply putting up with the AIO design and its extra cost in order to get what they consider is the real value of an Apple system: reliability, usability, and good support.

What you are describing in your dislike for AIOs and Apple's mini desktop using notebook-grade components is value, not something whose R&D and components are massively overpriced. If a product doesn't fit your needs then it is obviously worth substantially less value to you.

Your assumption that Apple doesn't make the elusive xMac is to protect its iMac business is without substance. You'll have to come up with a better argument before I'll consider that.
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