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Adobe, Apple working together on Flash for iPhone

post #1 of 153
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Once thought to be building Flash for the iPhone mostly on its own, Adobe has mentioned at the World Economic Forum that it's not only continuing work on the animation plug-in but has teamed up with Apple to make it a reality.

In an interview with Bloomberg at the Davos, Switzerland event, Adobe chief Shantanu Narayen describes development as a complicated two-way process rather than maintaining the previous image of a one-sided effort that would depend on App Store approval before it could launch.

"Its a hard technical challenge, and thats part of the reason Apple and Adobe are collaborating," he says. "The ball is in our court. The onus is on us to deliver."

What hurdles Adobe has to overcome aren't mentioned by the executive, though the company's long porting process has underscored the difficulty involved. Narayen had said that he was "pleased with progress" as far back as June of last year -- just three months after the iPhone SDK made native third-party apps an option on the touchscreen device.

Apple co-founder Steve Jobs has maintained since nearly a year ago that the real obstacle is the nature of Flash itself. While desktop Flash is too resource-heavy for the small processor and low memory of smartphones like the iPhone, Jobs has warned that Flash Lite is too feature-limited and doesn't do many of the things users expect Flash to do -- such as playing video on the web or showing complex animations on websites.

Most Flash Lite implementations actually depend on an app that runs entirely outside of the web browser and are often based on older versions of Flash that limit their performance and feature set; Jobs has argued for a "product in the middle" that does more.

Whether or not the collaborative process involves working on that app is very much a mystery, but it may be necessary for Flash to appear in Apple's preferred form, as third-party iPhone apps aren't allowed to serve as plugins based on the iPhone SDK's guidelines.

And in the meantime, the cellphone maker has publicly advocated HTML 5 as a replacement and is collaborating with fellow browser developers Mozilla and Opera to perform many of the same functions of Flash but in a more universal and less resource-hungry standard.
post #2 of 153
I just installed clicktoflash yesterday:

http://github.com/rentzsch/clicktoflash/tree/master

Prior to installing, I had around 100 open windows/tabs, and the CPU load was 123% (out of 200 on a dual-core iMac). I closed Safari, installed clicktoflash, and reopened the same windows. With Flash turned off: 16%.

Unless Adobe fixes this serious performance problem I'd just as soon see Flash go the way of Stuffit files.
post #3 of 153
Maybe flash will be a big feature for the 3rd iPhone with it's faster software. Would be nice to see it on the current Gen model too
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post #4 of 153
This is the same siruation we say in the beginning when Jobs was asked about third party software. He had said that they were sure it would happen, and he left it as a "when we figure it out", sort of basis.

It was pretty much the same with Flash. Despite what some here have been arguing, Jobs nevwr said it wouldn't happen. He never said he didn't want it. He never said he didn't like it.

He did say that it used too many resources for a small mobile device like the iPhone, and that Flashlite didn't give the proper experience. He said that when something did, it would be different.

I've always thought that Flash would arrive. The question was always when, and how. Last year, when Adobe said they were working on it, I believed them, and I believe that Apple is helping them.

It's all too obvious. So many other phones have some version of it, and from what I see, they work just fine.

I understand Apple's position on this, and it makes sense. It's the same reason why they don't want background processes running.

If this is done right, and I imagine Apple won't allow it until it is, then it will be fine.
post #5 of 153
The lack of flash isn't really high up in my 'list of problems'. To me he biggest problem with the iPhone is the lack of snycing. To dos? Push gmail? How come when I update an app on my iPhone it doesn't reflect that change on my computer!? How come I can't stream music to the nearest airport express?! How come when I add a bookmark to my iPhone safari it doesn't change my laptop's safari?! They can do so much stuff over the air that they aren't doing. I agree that media should be done over the wire, but how bout the other stuff?!

P.s. Apple can/should also do moe with the multitouch. Like multitouch swipe to change safari tabs! Or a two finger tap on the notifictations bar to turn wifi on/off.
post #6 of 153
i use Me just to sync my iPhone accross my iMac and laptop and it works sweet.
post #7 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Apple co-founder Steve Jobs has maintained since nearly a year ago that the real obstacle is the nature of Flash itself. While desktop Flash is too resource-heavy for the small processor and low memory of smartphones like the iPhone, Jobs has warned that Flash Lite is too feature-limited and doesn't do many of the things users expect Flash to do -- such as playing video on the web or showing complex animations on websites.

Most Flash Lite implementations actually depend on an app that runs entirely outside of the web browser and are often based on older versions of Flash that limit their performance and feature set; Jobs has argued for a "product in the middle" that does more.

Um, this is twisting what SJ said to make it seem like he agrees with this Adobe guy. He said nothing of the sort. SJ said Flash Lite sucks because it's not really Flash, and full Flash support is too processor-intensive for cell-phone-class processors. He said nothing about having any actual desire to have Flash on the iPhone.

SJ and Apple has pushed for years for web content to support web standards ONLY, and not use proprietary formats. The iPhone has shown that people can surf the web without the possibility of accessing Flash, and there is no reason for Apple to permit Adobe to kludge it in there.

Finally, no Flash support on the iPhone just makes Adobe's ability to sell Flash servers and get new companies to use Flash on their web sites just that much harder, because the best mobile surfing device can't access it. Companies don't want make an iPhone web site and a rest-of-the-internet web site, particularly for new sites. This gives the argument that they should stick with just using web-standards a big plus. And for the internet, that's a good thing.
post #8 of 153
I guess Jobs' statement of any usable version of Flash being too resource heavy, is a signal that the version of Flash they're developing is intended for the new (upcoming) iPhone, about which rumors have been going round about much more powerful graphics hardware...
post #9 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlux View Post

I just installed clicktoflash yesterday:

http://github.com/rentzsch/clicktoflash/tree/master

Prior to installing, I had around 100 open windows/tabs, and the CPU load was 123% (out of 200 on a dual-core iMac). I closed Safari, installed clicktoflash, and reopened the same windows. With Flash turned off: 16%.

Unless Adobe fixes this serious performance problem I'd just as soon see Flash go the way of Stuffit files.

this is only going to change if adobe starts taking osx just a little more serious than they have in the last few years. they clearly don't care about the mac and their shoddy implementation of flash is ample proof.

it seems with adobe's desire to get flash on the iphone, apple has some bargaining power. in order for flash to run, it needs to run efficient. since the iphone runs osx, fix flash for the mac and you're on your way to getting it on the iphone.

i'm not holding my breath, but i don't miss flash either...

i've used the lack of real flash on mobile devices as a perfect argument to have a handful of my clients drop flash from their websites already. keep on dragging your heels adobe!
post #10 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by ipodrulz View Post

The lack of flash isn't really high up in my 'list of problems'. To me he biggest problem with the iPhone is the lack of snycing. To dos? Push gmail? How come when I update an app on my iPhone it doesn't reflect that change on my computer!? How come I can't stream music to the nearest airport express?! How come when I add a bookmark to my iPhone safari it doesn't change my laptop's safari?! They can do so much stuff over the air that they aren't doing. I agree that media should be done over the wire, but how bout the other stuff?!

P.s. Apple can/should also do moe with the multitouch. Like multitouch swipe to change safari tabs! Or a two finger tap on the notifictations bar to turn wifi on/off.

I'm not interested in over the air syncing. I don't want my phone to sync everytime I get in range. I want it to sync when I want it to. That's a feature I can do without. Over the air is also much slower than a direct connection. As long as I could leave it off, fine, but you can say the same thing about Flash. Besides, Adobe is doing most all of the work. Adobe likely calls Apple when they need some questions answered, it's not taking anything away from Apple's own development efforts.

I think people are in too much of a rush for things. I'd rather see Apple go slowly, and do things right, than to rush every feature in the world out, and screw the whole thing up. This is difficult enough as it is!
post #11 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatisgoingon View Post

Um, this is twisting what SJ said to make it seem like he agrees with this Adobe guy. He said nothing of the sort. SJ said Flash Lite sucks because it's not really Flash, and full Flash support is too processor-intensive for cell-phone-class processors. He said nothing about having any actual desire to have Flash on the iPhone.

SJ and Apple has pushed for years for web content to support web standards ONLY, and not use proprietary formats. The iPhone has shown that people can surf the web without the possibility of accessing Flash, and there is no reason for Apple to permit Adobe to kludge it in there.

Finally, no Flash support on the iPhone just makes Adobe's ability to sell Flash servers and get new companies to use Flash on their web sites just that much harder, because the best mobile surfing device can't access it. Companies don't want make an iPhone web site and a rest-of-the-internet web site, particularly for new sites. This gives the argument that they should stick with just using web-standards a big plus. And for the internet, that's a good thing.

You're twisting the truth as well then. What he said, is that if the software can be done right, we would have it. This is pretty clear. He wasn't dissatisfied with the idea of Flash being on the phone, he just wasn't satisfied that it would work properly with the current software.
post #12 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

snip...

It's all too obvious. So many other phones have some version of it, and from what I see, they work just fine.

...snip

do all other phones run flash lite or are there any that run the full desktop version of it? i'm also curious what kind of battery life penalty flash lite delivers...
post #13 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofino View Post

do all other phones run flash lite or are there any that run the full desktop version of it? i'm also curious what kind of battery life penalty flash lite delivers...

All the ones I've seen run Lite. Can't talk about penalty, as it can't be turned off in the ones I've seen.

I really believe that Jobs does want to see Flash on the phone, and that he's spurring Adobe on to make it better.

He could very well have just said that we won't ever see it, the way he did with Java. But he didn't.

He doesn't think that Lite is terribly useful. He wants to see what we see on the desktop, with something that won't kill the cycles.

If we can turn it off and on at will, something that other phones I've seen CAN"T do, though there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to, as it's a design decision, then everyone should be happy, so I don't see the opposition as being meaningful.
post #14 of 153
I don't care either way about Flash on the iPhone, as long as it doesn't suck.

Having Flash on the iPhone is more important to Adobe than it is to Apple, so hopefully Apple can use this to negotiate a few things out of Adobe. At the very least improving the Mac desktop version of Flash. Maybe improving the interface in the Adobe Creative Suite.

Any other ideas on what Adobe should do to earn a spot on the iPhone for Flash?
post #15 of 153
Flash would kill the iPhone as it is.

im on a flash website and CPU is about 120 %

i hope in snow leopard we see adobe taping into Open CL

and if the iPhone 2.1 is Multi-Core it might be ok for flash.

adobe needs to start making flash less of a resource hog. in both OS X and Windows.
i sure as hell wont be download flash on my iPhone any time soon.
post #16 of 153
It's ironic that the people who cite the lack of Flash on the iPhone, are often those who say Apple isn't 'open' enough.

Adobe Flash is one of the most closed things there is, clean room reverse engineering is the only way to offer an alternative to Adobe.

In my experience a lot of sites are adapted to the iPhone, not the other way around.

One of the first things I install on a desktop is a flash blocker plugin for the browser.

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post #17 of 153
Quote:
I'm not interested in over the air syncing. I don't want my phone to sync everytime I get in range. I want it to sync when I want it to. That's a feature I can do without. Over the air is also much slower than a direct connection. As long as I could leave it off, fine, but you can say the same thing about Flash. Besides, Adobe is doing most all of the work. Adobe likely calls Apple when they need some questions answered, it's not taking anything away from Apple's own development efforts.

I think people are in too much of a rush for things. I'd rather see Apple go slowly, and do things right, than to rush every feature in the world out, and screw the whole thing up. This is difficult enough as it is!

I don't think speed becomes an issue when it's something as simple as comparing if apps are updated, or sending over 4 or even 20 To Dos. Apple could do a simple 10MB limit. Though the point of my post was to say that Flash is no where important compared to all the other things Apple could be working on.
post #18 of 153
I could do without Flash for everyday use, but it's those random convenience type things that make it hurt. Need a restaurant menu so you can tell home what to pick up? Use the iPhone! Oh, wait, they decided to use flash for that. I guess I'd like one question mark blue cube with extra sauce because that's all I see on the menu.
post #19 of 153
It's not a really big deal, but I'd rather have something, than not have it, as long, as I've said, it can be turned off easily. Then, there's no disadvantage. I don't know why people sometimes have a problem with this.

I also don't know why a few people hate it so. There's nothing wrong with Flash per se, it the developers who screw things up. But that's not always the truth, sometimes it's pretty good.

Unfortunately, most programmers aren't as talented as they like to pretend they are. Like most professions, most are just ok at their jobs, and there are as many bad ones as good ones.

Perhaps we should rail against such low standards in the profession instead. After all, we can see these problems in just about any software we have.
post #20 of 153
It just occurred to me that this might be the most important quote in the article.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

"Its a hard technical challenge, and thats part of the reason Apple and Adobe are collaborating," he says. "The ball is in our court. The onus is on us to deliver."

This is pretty much a 180 from where they were before, claiming flash would be ready "in a very short time" and just needed Apple's approval.
post #21 of 153
I would cry no tears whatsoever if Flash were to die. The internet is one of the few things left in the world that's largely open and free, so the less control individual companies have the better.

The trouble is, it will take years for the HTML 5 specification to be completed. Some organizations like Mozilla are jumping in and implementing things already (video and audio tags are coming in 3.1 in a few months) - which is great but it might cause problems down the line if these specs then change.
post #22 of 153
The ability to turn it off is the only way I would install it into my phone. It would likely be off 90% of the time.

The only time I miss flash on the phone is for video streaming. But if the video file is too large or consume too much processing it won't play on the phone anyway. I am looking forward to open and more efficient codecs becoming standard for streaming video to mobile devices. Their really is no reason to use flash for that.

I think its pretty clear why some people hate flash. Its the most abused, intrusive, and annoying technology used on the net. That may not be the fault of flash, but that doesn't matter when its annoying you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It's not a really big deal, but I'd rather have something, than not have it, as long, as I've said, it can be turned off easily. Then, there's no disadvantage. I don't know why people sometimes have a problem with this.

I also don't know why a few people hate it so. There's nothing wrong with Flash per se, it the developers who screw things up. But that's not always the truth, sometimes it's pretty good.

Unfortunately, most programmers aren't as talented as they like to pretend they are. Like most professions, most are just ok at their jobs, and there are as many bad ones as good ones.

Perhaps we should rail against such low standards in the profession instead. After all, we can see these problems in just about any software we have.
post #23 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofino View Post

this is only going to change if adobe starts taking osx just a little more serious than they have in the last few years. they clearly don't care about the mac and their shoddy implementation of flash is ample proof.

it seems with adobe's desire to get flash on the iphone, apple has some bargaining power. in order for flash to run, it needs to run efficient. since the iphone runs osx, fix flash for the mac and you're on your way to getting it on the iphone.

i'm not holding my breath, but i don't miss flash either...

i've used the lack of real flash on mobile devices as a perfect argument to have a handful of my clients drop flash from their websites already. keep on dragging your heels adobe!

I am guessing that Apple prefers websites not having a separate flash component as it has shown with its few web ads recently 'I'm a PC, I'm a Mac where PC is trying to light up signs about Vista' that you can have entertaining ads/ insertions into websites without using Flash. In the late 90's any moving graphics or images flashing was considered to be a no-no in webpage design as it was deemed to be distracting and invasive which it still is. The worst Flash culprits today are the ads that when you load the page, the ad zooms to almost entirely cover the page until you click the close button (which could launch something sinister on the wrong types of sites) or wait out the 5-10 seconds for the ad to finish. However the only way to keep Microsoft's silverlight at bay and send it to an early grave the way the whole 'MS Live' thing is heading, is for Apple and Adobe to come up with a usable standard.
post #24 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlux View Post

I just installed clicktoflash yesterday:

http://github.com/rentzsch/clicktoflash/tree/master

Prior to installing, I had around 100 open windows/tabs, and the CPU load was 123% (out of 200 on a dual-core iMac). I closed Safari, installed clicktoflash, and reopened the same windows. With Flash turned off: 16%.

Unless Adobe fixes this serious performance problem I'd just as soon see Flash go the way of Stuffit files.

Just what I needed... Thanks.
post #25 of 153
I reckon this is SJ's attempt to clip Adobe's web-media success and help promote open media standards especially with video, these guys haven't seen eye-to-eye in a while.

Just so long as there's an option to turn it off. I've found not having flash is a blessing - it's the best ad-blocker I've found & why use stacks of my data allowance on ads?

Flash by all means but off-switch please.

McD
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post #26 of 153
Oh no. What a shame. I was enjoying life without Flash. And excited about which new non proprietary technologies would replace it.
post #27 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by StormChaser View Post

However the only way to keep Microsoft's silverlight at bay and send it to an early grave the way the whole 'MS Live' thing is heading, is for Apple and Adobe to come up with a usable standard.

Doesn't Seadragon, one of Microsoft's Apps in the App store make use of Silverlight?
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post #28 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jono Hayes View Post

im on a flash website and CPU is about 120 %

i hope in snow leopard we see adobe taping into Open CL

Why? So that it can max out your GPU as well as your CPU and drain the battery twice as fast?

Flash doesn't need to tap into the GPU. It just needs to be competently optimised.
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post #29 of 153
I agree that Flash is a pain, but having a real option to view it will certainly end a weekly point of frustration for me when I'm trying to watch a non-youtube video or view a flash site. I can't wait!

I should also hope that I don't have to buy a new iPhone to get this feature.
post #30 of 153
Maybe Adobe & Apple can have this ready in time for these rumors I'm hearing lately about a hardware revision for the next iPhone - which then makes me wonder about compatibility with 1st gen phones...
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post #31 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by saarek View Post

Maybe flash will be a big feature for the 3rd iPhone with it's faster software. Would be nice to see it on the current Gen model too

There's no reason why it can't come out for the current generation of iPhones. Silverlight might be another tech we'll be needing soon too.

Don't know if we'll ever see Java on the iPhone though - poor Sun.
post #32 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

The ability to turn it off is the only way I would install it into my phone. It would likely be off 90% of the time.

The only time I miss flash on the phone is for video streaming. But if the video file is too large or consume too much processing it won't play on the phone anyway. I am looking forward to open and more efficient codecs becoming standard for streaming video to mobile devices. Their really is no reason to use flash for that.

I think its pretty clear why some people hate flash. Its the most abused, intrusive, and annoying technology used on the net. That may not be the fault of flash, but that doesn't matter when its annoying you.

There's nothing annoying about the technology. It's the use some put to it that's annoying.

Cell phones are also an annoying technology, and should be stopped, by that reasoning. I find people talking on the phone very annoying when they do it on line, in a doctors office, in the train. I find the stupid ringtones so many people use annoying, as loud as possible, of course. I find other things about them annoying. Most people would agree with me on this.

Therefor, they should be stopped, right?
post #33 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofino View Post

this is only going to change if adobe starts taking osx just a little more serious than they have in the last few years. they clearly don't care about the mac and their shoddy implementation of flash is ample proof.

it seems with adobe's desire to get flash on the iphone, apple has some bargaining power. in order for flash to run, it needs to run efficient. since the iphone runs osx, fix flash for the mac and you're on your way to getting it on the iphone.

i'm not holding my breath, but i don't miss flash either...

i've used the lack of real flash on mobile devices as a perfect argument to have a handful of my clients drop flash from their websites already. keep on dragging your heels adobe!

Flash isn't just a hog on OS X. It's equally garbage on Linux. The system resources and CPU percentage it sucks out of a system are ludicrous.
post #34 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by McDave View Post

I reckon this is SJ's attempt to clip Adobe's web-media success and help promote open media standards especially with video, these guys haven't seen eye-to-eye in a while.

Just so long as there's an option to turn it off. I've found not having flash is a blessing - it's the best ad-blocker I've found & why use stacks of my data allowance on ads?

Flash by all means but off-switch please.

McD

I don't think Jobs is trying to do that, and it would be stupid.

If Adobe's Flash fails because of this, which is almost impossible, then MS's Silverlight will take over.

How many people would want to see that happen? Raise your hands.

Hmmm! I didn't think so.

No matter how many people hate Adobe, it would be better if they succeed than MS. We know what their vision is.
post #35 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

Flash isn't just a hog on OS X. It's equally garbage on Linux. The system resources and CPU percentage it sucks out of a system are ludicrous.

Good. I don't really care about Linux.
post #36 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

Flash isn't just a hog on OS X. It's equally garbage on Linux. The system resources and CPU percentage it sucks out of a system are ludicrous.

Good. I don't really care about Linux.

Wait, am I reading this correctly? You think it's good that Flash runs poorly for people who use Linux just because you don't use Linux yourself?
post #37 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by arteckx View Post

Wait, am I reading this correctly? You think it's good that Flash runs poorly for people who use Linux just because you don't use Linux yourself?

I don't really care about Linux. I don't particularly like Torvolds, and as a user of another system, I'd like to see that system do better.

What's so strange about that?

Now, if you use more than one system, you may feel better. but, I'm also an Apple stockholder, and the truth is, Linux is more of a competitor for Apple than is MS.

This isn't the automobile highway you know. One computer platform pushes the others out. I'd rather it be OS X doing the pushing.

Are we supposed to pretend to be ecumenical here? This is an Apple product website.
post #38 of 153
Whatever they do, I hope it can be disabled, and I hope it can be toggled at user option when viewing websites. Flash is not very important to me at all. Heck, 90% of its activity on my computer is to deliver advertising to me...
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post #39 of 153
It seems unlikely to me that Flash could ever be optimised enough to work on the current iPhone, the processor would choke on it. From what I've heard, any Flash plug-in would have to be at least one, and possibly two orders of magnitude faster to work at all.

Flash could possibly work on the 2.0 iPhone when it comes out, but it seems to me that it's much more likely that developments like Quicktime X, possibly working in a similar way as "click to Flash" does will have to suffice for current iPhone owners. Also, the way Flash Lite works (which is the solution other phones use), kind of requires multi-tasking which the current iPhone is unlikely ever to do very well.
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post #40 of 153
How about Adobe and Apple work together on Flash for OS X that doesn't suck arse, first? Then work their way up from there?

When surfing the web with Safari I can always tell I've hit a flash-based website because the fans on my blackbook that are normally otherwise silent ramp up like the space shuttle taking off. Thankfully I have Flashblock and FF3 for everyday web use.

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