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Next-gen Mac Pro processors could arrive March 29 - Page 5

post #161 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Would mind going into further detail about this. Assuming Apple is getting the same discount as before the costs of the new Xeons should be more. Except for the ability not to use FB RAM I don't understand where they will be saving money to make the cost equivalent as before.

I mentioned that they will have less costs because of no memory controller chip, otherwise known as an Integrated Memory Controller (from Intel), or a Northbridge (from about everyone else) which is expensive, and requires heatsinking.

http://www.google.com/products?clien...num=4&ct=title .

Add these to the cost of the Harperstown, and the price jumps pretty high. Then the other costs I mentioned regarding the mobo have to be factored in.

Another thing that must be factored in here is that Harpertowns have been out for a while and have seen price drops, as is usual. Here is one of them:

http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Desktops-an...d-Xeon-Prices/

Here's another one:

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Int...Cuts,6862.html

The new, not yet arrived Nehalem Xeons will be at full price. This also makes the price comparisons difficult. To be fair therefore, we have to see the price of the Harpertowns, as well as for the IMC when they first came out.

The i7, is a cheaper chip, as it is for mass market desktops.
post #162 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I mentioned that they will have less costs because of no memory controller chip, otherwise known as an Integrated Memory Controller (from Intel), or a Northbridge (from about everyone else) which is expensive, and requires heatsinking.
[...]
The i7, is a cheaper chip, as it is for mass market desktops.

Thanks for the reply and links.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #163 of 254
Quote:
The i7, is a cheaper chip, as it is for mass market desktops.

How ironic in light of Apple's bleating of not selling enough Mac Pros.

Quote:
Currently you can buy a Core i7 PC tower for about $1,200 with an ATI 4850 Core i7 Tower That computer easily blows away the current top of the line iMac and probably would even beat the Mac Pro in raw speed at certain tasks. With all the talk about about the new iMac using a quad core, I have heard nothing about the possibility of that being an i7 quad core. How can Apple possibly compete if it sticks with the slower and older Intel line and completely ignores the i7? I am not trolling, I honestly want to know if anyone else is concerned that due to the emphasis on slim form factor we may be missing out on this incredible CPU.

Well. That says it all.

Lemon Bon Bon.

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #164 of 254
Quote:
How can Apple possibly compete if it sticks with the slower and older Intel line and completely ignores the i7?



God knows. Design cul-de-sacs are what they do best.

Lemon Bon Bon.

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #165 of 254
Quote:
Currently you can buy a Core i7 PC tower for about $1,200 with an ATI 4850 Core i7 Tower That computer easily blows away the current top of the line iMac and probably would even beat the Mac Pro in raw speed at certain tasks.

Heh. The 4850 spanks the standard Mac 'Pro' gpu and the 'GT' you have to pay 'extra' for in bang for buck. How absurd it is that Apple are using a lame, cheap ass, old gpu in their 'flagship' computer. It's the shame of the I.T industry.

Sure we can throw stones over Vista. But the specs of Apple's desktop line are a disgrace in ram spec, hd spec AND particularly the GPU spec. Oh. We're still on dual cores a year later. I wonder if Steve Jobs truly cares about that fact the next time he's show boating with the bloody iphone.

Lemon Bon Bon.

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #166 of 254
Adding to that. I'd like to think with Tim Cook in charge that they'd at least change these abhorrent facts and at least round out the skeletal desktop line.

I won't hold my breath.

Lemon Bon Bon.

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #167 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon Bon Bon. View Post

Adding to that. I'd like to think with Tim Cook in charge that they'd at least change these abhorrent facts and at least round out the skeletal desktop line.

I won't hold my breath.

Lemon Bon Bon.

Unfortunately if Steve recovers until June completely (which I wish to him from a personal point) Tim will not be long enough in the driver's seat to do any good to the desktops.
Apple tries to ride the financial crises on the mobile side and being hip and fashionable. If the crises expands a bit longer and shows no sign of recovery until mid 2009, Apple will fail and have to reconsider and act fast (my personal opinion).
post #168 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon Bon Bon. View Post

How ironic in light of Apple's bleating of not selling enough Mac Pros.

It has nothing to do with it.


Quote:
Well. That says it all.

Lemon Bon Bon.

That doesn't say anything either.

Right now, before the new 5570's arrive, EVERY i7 machine out there will beat any single chip workstation or server, no matter who makes it. That includes Dell, Hp, IBM, Boxx, Sun, and all other PC manufacturers.

Once the new Xeons are out, that will change.

It's absurd to say that the Mac Pro is any different. It's more than competitive with every other machine in its class, as it will be with the new chips.
post #169 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by copeland View Post

Unfortunately if Steve recovers until June completely (which I wish to him from a personal point) Tim will not be long enough in the driver's seat to do any good to the desktops.
Apple tries to ride the financial crises on the mobile side and being hip and fashionable. If the crises expands a bit longer and shows no sign of recovery until mid 2009, Apple will fail and have to reconsider and act fast (my personal opinion).

You guys are making the assumption that there is a difference in opinion between Jobs and Cook.

You know nothing of the sort.

Do you really think that there would be such a difference in opinion between them that Jobs would have Cook in that job?

It's not likely.

They have their plans, whatever they may be, and they will stick to them.

Some of the shortfall is due to the terrible economic situation, and has nothing to do with the machines themselves.

I think that if newer desktops had come out, we would have still seen most of the sales drop, but not all of it. If the economic situation was not so dire, we would have seen a modest sales drop.

No matter how you look at it, it's different today than it used to be in the "bad old days". Then, if Apple didn't have new products available in a certain timeframe, instead of waiting many people and businesses would move to PC's. There's little evidence of that happening today. They will just wait longer to upgrade.

I'm not so sure how much business Apple has actually lost from this in the long run, other than to see the figures from last quarter. When Apple does come out with new machines, those sales will likely be made up.

Don't forget that desktops are being pounded all over, and that a lot of new PC sales are these notebooks, which many users are disappointed in after the sale is made, according to a survey, and anecdotal evidence being reported on (mostly the Linux boxes).

While I've been supporting the idea of a mini xMac tower for years, I really don't see that having anything to do with the Mac Pro. It's a separate issue. It would much more affect iMac sales. most users of the Mac Pro want that power.
post #170 of 254
Quote:
nothing

Everything.

Quote:
absurd

Is exactly what the Mac Pro spec sheet is. Other PC vendors have i7 desktop options. Apple doesn't. It doesn't excuse them for not having that option because other vendors have similarly prices workstations (probably with better standard ram, hd and gpu...). Well. Duh.

Lemon Bon Bon.

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #171 of 254
Quote:
You know nothing of the sort.

We don't and you don't know that either. Unless it's against the moderator's rule book to make assumptions or have wishful thinking. Times are desperate for the 'fan' of Apple desktops.

Lemon Bon Bon.

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #172 of 254
Quote:
Some of the shortfall is due to the terrible economic situation, and has nothing to do with the machines themselves.

I think that if newer desktops had come out, we would have still seen most of the sales drop, but not all of it. If the economic situation was not so dire, we would have seen a modest sales drop.

No matter how you look at it, it's different today than it used to be in the "bad old days". Then, if Apple didn't have new products available in a certain timeframe, instead of waiting many people and businesses would move to PC's. There's little evidence of that happening today. They will just wait longer to upgrade.

I'm not so sure how much business Apple has actually lost from this in the long run, other than to see the figures from last quarter. When Apple does come out with new machines, those sales will likely be made up.

Don't forget that desktops are being pounded all over, and that a lot of new PC sales are these notebooks, which many users are disappointed in after the sale is made, according to a survey, and anecdotal evidence being reported on (mostly the Linux boxes).

While I've been supporting the idea of a mini xMac tower for years, I really don't see that having anything to do with the Mac Pro. It's a separate issue. It would much more affect iMac sales. most users of the Mac Pro want that power.

There's so much nonsense in that waffle...I'll need time to pick through it.

Lemon Bon Bon.

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #173 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon Bon Bon. View Post

Everything.



Is exactly what the Mac Pro spec sheet is. Other PC vendors have i7 desktop options. Apple doesn't. It doesn't excuse them for not having that option because other vendors have similarly prices workstations (probably with better standard ram, hd and gpu...). Well. Duh.

Lemon Bon Bon.

You're missing the point.

You are trying to make two things that have nothing to do with each other merge into one issue, when they are not one issue.

You can insist on it all you want to, but that still doesn't make it correct.

Over the years here, we've seen far more people consider this to be an iMac, xMac issue than a Powermac, Mac Pro, xMac issue, though there are a few.

People who want a dual processor machine are not going to buy a single processor machine.

Apple offered single processor Powermacs and people didn't buy them very much after the dual chip machines came out once OS X was available. This was especially true with the G5 machines. This is one reason Apple went for the dual socket solution.

An xMac wouldn't do much for the Mac Pro crowd.

I'm not saying it wouldn't sell, as you seem to be assuming I am. It would sell to different people.

As I said, I've been one of the first advocates of one, but having been in the commercial photo/publishing business for many years, I haven't seen much demand from pros for a cheaper, less powerful machine.

I have seen some pine for an xMac instead of an iMac though.
post #174 of 254
The fact is that Apple are in no way competitive in the consumer desktop space.

But they look Kool and they run 'X'.

Quote:
bad old days

At least they or we had an excuse then. ie Moto and IBM dragging feet on chip development. Apple have the cheaper desktop chips, cheaper ram than ever before, dirt cheap HDs, dirt cheap and powerful gpus yet they don't give us the option of having them. Instead...they make stuff that's thin with overpriced 'low-power' components. Fine if you want 'boutique' but 'some' (how long is that piece of string) us would like some choice or the option to buy what our Wintel 'brothers' can. ie a decent quad desktop with a decent gpu without digging up our dead grannies to help with the mortgage on it.

Lemon Bon Bon.

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #175 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon Bon Bon. View Post

There's so much nonsense in that waffle...I'll need time to pick through it.

Lemon Bon Bon.

Your whole argument is waffle.

If you can;t understand what is happening now in economics and the computer situation in general, there's no point in even bothering to discuss it with you.
post #176 of 254
Quote:
An xMac wouldn't do much for the Mac Pro crowd.

You don't 'know' that.

Lemon Bon Bon.

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #177 of 254
Ergo: it's a moot point. As there will be no choice anyhow by the looks of things. As for 'dual', Apple only ever started offering that when their PPC chips speed stalled. There's no need not to deploy a proper range of 'Power Towers' with explosive i7 power. With a decent price range. That would in no way effect the 'dual' range considering sales are in the toilet (through no fault of Apple's own, of course...)

Lemon Bon Bon.

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #178 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon Bon Bon. View Post

The fact is that Apple are in no way competitive in the consumer desktop space.

But they look Kool and they run 'X'.

For you, probably not. but you seem to think that one thing you think is required accounts for everything. It doesn't.

Apple has never tried to be competitive in every area of anything. That doesn't mean they're not competitive where they do compete.

Hp's computer sales were up 3% last quarter. Dell's were down, I think, about 13%.

Both had big drops in desktop sales.

Apples were up 12%. And that's with the lower desktop sales.

Quote:
At least they or we had an excuse then. ie Moto and IBM dragging feet on chip development. Apple have the cheaper desktop chips, cheaper ram than ever before, dirt cheap HDs, dirt cheap and powerful gpus yet they don't give us the option of having them. Instead...they make stuff that's thin with overpriced 'low-power' components. Fine if you want 'boutique' but 'some' (how long is that piece of string) us would like some choice or the option to buy what our Wintel 'brothers' can. ie a decent quad desktop with a decent gpu without digging up our dead grannies to help with the mortgage on it.

Lemon Bon Bon.

That's thats not fact, just your opinion. Many others don't agree. You think that the laptops are overpriced, but their sales last quarter went up far more than anyone else's laptops, if you exclude the notebook class of machine which is obviously very different.
post #179 of 254
Quote:
If you can;t understand what is happening now in economics and the computer situation in general, there's no point in even bothering to discuss it with you.

Don't be petulant and patronising because I don't agree with you. (Yeah, I know it's credit crunch time! But what happened to the Apple that always 'innovated its way through recession? That doesn't apply to its desktops, does it?)

Apple's desktops are not competitive.

Simple. No fat. No waffle.

Lemon Bon Bon.

PS. Note how when Apple does upate its desktops...the sales figures, historically, squeeze much closer to desktops. It's ingenuine to say that we only sell 30% of desktops when specs are in the toilet and haven't been given a moderate 'spec' bump in all that time. Who buys crap like that? I don't.

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #180 of 254
Quote:
If you can;t understand what is happening now in economics and the computer situation in general, there's no point in even bothering to discuss it with you.

Don't be petulant and patronising because I don't agree with you. (Yeah, I know it's credit crunch time! But what happened to the Apple that always 'innovated its way through recession? That doesn't apply to its desktops, does it?)

Apple's desktops are not competitive.

Simple. No fat. No waffle.

Lemon Bon Bon.

PS. Note how when Apple does upate its desktops...the sales figures, historically, squeeze much closer to desktops. It's ingenuine to say that we only sell 30% of desktops when specs are in the toilet and haven't been given a moderate 'spec' bump in all that time. Who buys crap like that? I don't.

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #181 of 254
Quote:
For you, probably not. but you seem to think that one thing you think is required accounts for everything. It doesn't.

Your reply is not fact. It's just you opinion.

And I can be backed up by going to any PC vendor. Apple's desktops are out of date.

No quad consumer desktop option. Fact.

No recent gpu. Fact.

Stingy ram and hd. Fact.

Apple charging top dollar for old specs? Fact.

Mac Pro. Not updated when a more powerful option eg i7 and a 280 gpu...which are out there! Fact.

Lemon Bon Bon.

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #182 of 254
Quote:
And that's with the lower desktop sales.

...gee, must imagine WHAT those desktops sales would have been IF they'd have bothered to update their Mac desktops... I guess we'll never know until they DO update them.

Lemon Bon Bon.

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #183 of 254
Quote:
Apple has never tried to be competitive

Not in the last year. I'll agree with you on that point.

Lemon Bon Bon.

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #184 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon Bon Bon. View Post

You don't 'know' that.

Lemon Bon Bon.

Unlike you, I DO know that. Computers were a major part of my companies needs, and those of the others in the industry, as well as those I worked with in the Tv, motion picture, and even scientific areas of businesses that gave us work to do.

You can also look up information on this. See how the pharmaceutical industry used first Powermacs, and now Mac Pros in their labs.

The Mac Pro is aimed at a certain type of user, just as all the other heavy duty machines from other manufacturers are. Apple isn't looking for gamers to supplement these users.

My contention is that a small number of gamers might be buying lower end Mac Pros if different graphics cards were available, an area in which I would agree with you if you said that Apple's offerings there are inadequate.

But to say that an xMac with half the power of a Mac Pro would drive users away from the Mac pro isn't true. It could make possible iMac buyers hesitate though.
post #185 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon Bon Bon. View Post

Ergo: it's a moot point. As there will be no choice anyhow by the looks of things. As for 'dual', Apple only ever started offering that when their PPC chips speed stalled. There's no need not to deploy a proper range of 'Power Towers' with explosive i7 power. With a decent price range. That would in no way effect the 'dual' range considering sales are in the toilet (through no fault of Apple's own, of course...)

Lemon Bon Bon.

That's going back a very way. They supported up to 4 chips long before that, but they didn't produce the machines themselves.
post #186 of 254
Quote:
That doesn't mean they're not competitive where they do compete.

I can't believe you typed that with a straight face.

The mini is a joke. No Keyboard. No monitor. It's an out of date piece of junk in a 'kool' biscuit tin. It is in no way competitive in the sub-£500 market.

The iMac doesn't have any quad cpu option vs machines costing half as much with the i7 chip and a 4850! (escuse me for waffling, now...)

And what Workstation has a 2600pro in it? (Can you smell the carcass on that one?)

Just me humble subjective opinion now.

Lemon Bon Bon.

PS. I'll have a side bet with you that...um...desktop sales improve when Apple updates them...that's despite the 'fact' they aren't an important market anymore...and sales are clearly shrinking 'overall'.

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #187 of 254
Quote:
but they didn't produce the machines themselves.

They have greater choice and more standard parts now than they ever have had. No excuses now, Melgross.

Lemon Bon Bon.

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #188 of 254
Quote:
The Mac Pro is aimed at a certain type of user

Yes. Nods head slowly. I get that.

Lemon Bon Bon.

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #189 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon Bon Bon. View Post

Don't be petulant and patronising because I don't agree with you. (Yeah, I know it's credit crunch time! But what happened to the Apple that always 'innovated its way through recession? That doesn't apply to its desktops, does it?)

Apple hasn't updated them enough the past year or so. I haven't been denying that. I've stated it in other posts. I don't know why.

Quote:
Apple's desktops are not competitive.

Simple. No fat. No waffle.


I'm not being patronizing. But your statements are pretty strongly stating big things about the sales drop which isn't allowing for the economic situation, and you're not allowing that other computer manufacturers are having a FAR worse time of it. You're making it seem as though it's just Apple.

I don't agree with that though. Macs are not PC's. They don't compete directly in the way you think. It's mostly Mac owners who hold back to wait for newer machines, not new buyers. And Mac owners are very loyal.

Quote:
PS. Note how when Apple does upate its desktops...the sales figures, historically, squeeze much closer to desktops. It's ingenuine to say that we only sell 30% of desktops when specs are in the toilet and haven't been given a moderate 'spec' bump in all that time. Who buys crap like that? I don't.

We know that there are sales bumps before an upgrade. I've said that people were waiting for new machies in Macworld, and that that was one of the reasons why the sales dropped as much as they did last quarter.

But a lot of that drop was because of the economy as well.

If Apple updates its machines in a month or so, we will see that sales bump.

But you are saying that the machines aren't competitive altogether, other than for the lack of updates, and that's where I disagree.
post #190 of 254
Quote:
My contention is that a small number of gamers might be buying lower end Mac Pros if different graphics cards were available, an area in which I would agree with you if you said that Apple's offerings there are inadequate.

But to say that an xMac with half the power of a Mac Pro would drive users away from the Mac pro isn't true. It could make possible iMac buyers hesitate though.

Your contention holds no sway over my contention. They have the option to use i7. Would you then buy a dual Xeon in light of that? Nope.

For the record, Apple offered the G5 tower for £995 with crap amounts of ram, hd, no monitor bundle and some half ass motherboard. And they wondered why people/gamers, cheap ass prosumers wouldn't buy the cheap ass product. They could offer the i7 with 4850 for that price now...and it would make the Mac 'Pro' Xeon look like the laughing stock it is.

Lemon Bon Bon.

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #191 of 254
Quote:
They don't compete directly in the way you think.

That's nonsense now we're on Intel. That is an old sacred cow argument.

There specs are out of date when there are cheap, competitive AND more powerful options that have been available for some time. That's my argument.

Apple have stagnated on desktops. Zero link. Zero waffle.

Lemon Bon Bon.

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #192 of 254
Quote:
But you are saying that the machines aren't competitive altogether, other than for the lack of updates, and that's where I disagree.

Are you serious?

Lemon Bon Bon.

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #193 of 254
Quote:
The mini is a joke. No Keyboard. No monitor. It's an out of date piece of junk in a 'kool' biscuit tin. It is in no way competitive in the sub-£500 market.

The iMac doesn't have any quad cpu option vs machines costing half as much with the i7 chip and a 4850! (escuse me for waffling, now...)

And what Workstation has a 2600pro in it? (Can you smell the carcass on that one?

That's where we are. That's Apple.

Lemon Bon Bon.

PS. It's ingenuine to say Apple are competitive in their chosen markets when there are cheaper, better, more powerful components out there. If you were talking laptops we wouldn't be having this discussion. But, desktops? They're a joke. If there was a mid-tower option or a Mac Pro with an i7 consumer tower option a 'Mac' then...we wouldn't be having this discussion either. Apple are rigid. That is my opinion I guess. But the desktop line up as it stands speaks for itself. Square pegs. Round holes.

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #194 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon Bon Bon. View Post

I can't believe you typed that with a straight face.

Oh please! That was just plain silly. You know very well what that means. Boxx, a well known maker of expensive PC workstations also doesn't compete in the "cheap" space. Does that mean they aren't competitive in the space they do compete in? Of course not. Here's the pricing of their single i7 chip workstations:

http://www.boxxtech.com/products/3DB...erformance.asp

Quote:
The mini is a joke. No Keyboard. No monitor. It's an out of date piece of junk in a 'kool' biscuit tin. It is in no way competitive in the sub-£500 market.

They seem to be selling a lot of them for professional purposes in hotels, cruise ships, casinos, etc. I'd like to see them update that s well, but it must be selling well enough, or Apple would pull it, as they did with the Cube.

Quote:
The iMac doesn't have any quad cpu option vs machines costing half as much with the i7 chip and a 4850! (escuse me for waffling, now...)

According to tests, it actually can run PS faster than a mid Mac Pro. Thats pretty fast. We may be seeing a new 4 core model now that Apple will have Grand Central.

By the way, look up the word "waffle". It DOESN'T mean telling all the facts.

Quote:
And what Workstation has a 2600pro in it? (Can you smell the carcass on that one?)

Just me humble subjective opinion now.

It's very subjective, and not at all humble as you know.

But, if Apple only offered the 2600, you would be right. As they don't, you are wrong.

Quote:
PS. I'll have a side bet with you that...um...desktop sales improve when Apple updates them...that's despite the 'fact' they aren't an important market anymore...and sales are clearly shrinking 'overall'.

You don't need a bet for that. I've said it before you did. It's pretty obvious. But it's not really your argument, is it?

And no one said they weren't an important market anymore, unless you are the one saying it.
post #195 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon Bon Bon. View Post

They have greater choice and more standard parts now than they ever have had. No excuses now, Melgross.

What? Of course they do. What makes you think I said anything different?
post #196 of 254
This Lemon Bon Bon is so odd. He replies to a post by dissecting a line from a post, replying, then repeating the process. He removes the name of the poster from the quote making it more difficult to discern the thread unless you are the original poster, and he finsihed all his posts by writing his handle at the bottom despite it being obvious who wrote the post. None of that says rational thinking.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #197 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon Bon Bon. View Post

Your contention holds no sway over my contention. They have the option to use i7. Would you then buy a dual Xeon in light of that? Nope.

On gaming sites, after the Mac Pros came out, a lot if gamers said that they would buy a Mac Pro instead of an Alien, or Voodo, or other top performance/price PC IF there were better graphics cards available.

Even they do more than play games, and a lot of them apparently would like to have a Mac. It's not that surprising.

Quote:
For the record, Apple offered the G5 tower for £995 with crap amounts of ram, hd, no monitor bundle and some half ass motherboard. And they wondered why people/gamers, cheap ass prosumers wouldn't buy the cheap ass product. They could offer the i7 with 4850 for that price now...and it would make the Mac 'Pro' Xeon look like the laughing stock it is.

For the record, that's meaningless.

Until Apple moved to Intel chips, there was NO reason why most gamers would go to a Mac. Running Windows under emulation isn't the best gaming experience, to say the least.

I don't agree with everything Apple does, and not having better gaming boards, along with the expensive pro board, and the cheaper boards, is something I don't understand. I think it's wrong of them, esp. since they have very carefully made sure that a dual slot width graphics board wouldn't take a slot away, which is something that even most PC don't do.

But you seem to miss the idea that I've been stating over and again, which is that I agree that there should be an xMac. How many times must I state that to you before you understand it?

This is all semantics anyway. An xMac would sit between the iMac and the Mac Pro.

Whether you realise it or not, we're basically saying the same things.
post #198 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon Bon Bon. View Post

That's nonsense now we're on Intel. That is an old sacred cow argument.

There specs are out of date when there are cheap, competitive AND more powerful options that have been available for some time. That's my argument.

Apple have stagnated on desktops. Zero link. Zero waffle.

Lemon Bon Bon.

So then, since you won't respond specifically to what I'm saying about the basic model line-up, you are stating that it's only updates that are hurting most of the lines? That's what this post is saying.
post #199 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

The Mac Pro isn't competing with the lower priced i7 machines that are out there, or will be out there. They compete with workstations that cost about the same. You could have said the same thing about the old Mac Pros. Why did Apple only use Xeons in them?

In addition, why would Apple wait so long after the i7 comes out before releasing a Mc Pro based on it? They've never done that before, so why would now be different?

Why Apple hasn't updated their machines more often lately, is something I don't know. They obviously have some reason.

None of Apple's desktop models are "selling like hotcakes" lately. The Mac Pro isn't the only one.

Nehalem Xeons will cost about the same, possibly even less that the current Harpertown models when everything is taken into account. You have to figure in all that Apple doesn't have to pay for as well as the actual price of the cpus. They don't need the separate memory controller, which is expensive. They don't need the extra power supply parts. They don't need the extra real estate on the mobo, etc. This simplifies the design process. It allows for a less expensive board. Simpler testing, etc.

Overall, the costs should be about the same. This is what sites such as Anandtech are finding, even though only high end boards can be used, that's no different from before.

As for your pricing, I don't see it as being as high as that. It's possible that prices may be a bit higher than today, as each generation seems to gain a bit because of inflation. If Apple adds features, then pricing may go higher.


Let's talk about nehalem EP:
- the cpus will cost more than current Harpertown and a lot more: e.g. a 2.80 harpertown costs $800, a 2.66GHz xeon nehalem will cost $960. Apple would have to go down to 2.53Ghz to have a nehalem xeon that costs about the same as the 2.80 harpertown. I'm not saying that a 2.53 nehalem is not better than a 2.80 harpertown, I'm just saying that the entry price for nehalem cpus is higher than for harpertown ones.
- AFAIK, motherboards based on nehalem xeon cost more to manufacture than previous ones, more layers, expensive chipset (just like for harpertown), and while the DDR3-ECC RAM may be less expensive than FB-DIMMS, you need to buy them in trio and in the case of a dual-cpu computer, you would need 6 of them to make good use of the memory controller.
- IMO, the power supply will be the same since the TDP of nehalem xeons (95-130W each) will be about the same as the TDP of the current harpertowns (80-150W each) in the Mac Pro.

I believe you're being too optimistic in thinking that moving to nehalem xeons for the Mac Pro will not induce another price increase, and another price increase for the entry point, too. Of course Apple is not paying the "retail" price of the cpus, but a percentage of it, in any case if they were paying $800-x% for harpertown, they still will be paying $960-x% for nehalem xeon and unless you change x, $960-x% will always be higher than $800-x%. The chipset for Harpertown or nehalem Xeons is a small percentage of the cost of the cpu, probably around $100. While the new "northbridge" doesn't include a MC, it includes 2 QPI links and a 24/32 PCIe lanes controller: new technologies, new chips = expensive. X58 is more expensive than X48.

Quote:
Another thing that must be factored in here is that Harpertowns have been out for a while and have seen price drops, as is usual. Here is one of them:
http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Desktops-an...d-Xeon-Prices/
Here's another one:
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Int...Cuts,6862.html

The price cuts you have mentionned here concern the xeons that are in fact desktop quad-core cpus renamed, those are for uniprocesseur servers and have seen price cuts just like the other desktop chips from Intel. The DP-capable Xeons HAVE NOT seen any price cut since their launch late 2007.

Jan_18_09_1ku_Price.pdf

Harpertown.22_.28standard-voltage.2C_45_nm.29

Gainestown.22_.2845_nm.29_.5B1.5D_.5B2.5D

Why the Mac Pro hasn't been updated yet?
There was nothing to update it to. No price cuts on harpertown cpus from Intel, no new chipset and "just" one more expensive 3.40Ghz model. What Apple could have done is just a new BTO option for the 3.40GHz.

What wait to release a Core i7 Mac Pro?
To release it at the same time as the dual-Xeon Mac Pro. The same family. Releasing a Core i7 Mac Pro alone would have probably cut all the potential sales of the harpertown Mac Pro. There is also a Core i7 speedbump to 3.06/3.33Ghz planned for Q2... Or they could wait for the Xeon labelled Core i7 (W3500 series) priced just like the desktop Core i7, so that they could say that all Mac Pro have Xeon-class cpus.

Desktops Macs.
As far as I understand, the iMac represents probably 90-95% of Apple's desktop sales for the previous quarters, that's still a lot of sales, hot cakes or not. It's the only desktop Mac that's not too old and that can be of a certain value for the consumer. You know that the ASP for Apple computers is about $1500, it wouldn't hurt having another computer with more potential sales (than the dual-xeon Mac Pro) at that price and higher. People who wouldn't have bought a Mac Pro would probably be interested in a less expensive tower (instead of an iMac with probably lower margins than a 2.66GHz Core i7 tower starting at $1499), and people who really need that much power won't be disappointed with the dual-xeon nehalem Mac Pro (and they have the cash, the +$3K, to spend on those).

Other updates:
Mac mini: IMO, it's a shame this one was not updated to the specs of the white MacBook (to make it simple).
iMac: I hope Apple was waiting for the 65W desktop quads, because other than that, it's custom mobile chips again and probably a very small speedbump.
post #200 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon Bon Bon. View Post

Are you serious?

Lemon Bon Bon.

That response isn't saying anything. Be more specific. Your posts are wandering. I can't tell what you think at this point.
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