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Exploring Windows 7 on the Mac: Installation via Boot Camp

post #1 of 47
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Mac users who have a need to run Windows applications or games may have good reason to keep an eye on the development of Windows 7, due for release later this year. Among its features are easier setup and installation.

This series looks at the features Windows 7 offers to Mac users, and what is involved in moving from XP. This segment looks specifically at how Windows 7 differs from Mac OS X in setup and installation, and how Microsoft has made improvements over the experience offered by XP and Vista.

Mac users have a number of reasons to install Windows; some might want to run Windows in a virtual environment such VMwares Fusion, Parallels Desktop, or Suns free VirtualBox to run a custom corporate app (or some other software that only works on Windows), right on the Mac OS X desktop.

Others might want to install Windows natively on their Mac using Boot Camp for full the performance required to run many Windows-only games. And many Mac users are also owners of generic PCs, and want to setup their Windows PC to share files and sync data with their Mac.

Portions of this article will apply to all these users, with a focus on Mac users who install Windows (and Windows 7 in particular) directly on their Mac using Boot Camp. A previous article looked at what is involved in installing Windows 7 within a virtual environment.

Using Boot Camp

While Apples Boot Camp Utility (below) is sometimes portrayed as a translation layer that allows Windows to run on Mac hardware, it is really just a two-step preparation tool that first formats the boot drive so that Windows can be installed, and then provides the installed copy of Windows with Apple-supplied driver software to properly access all of the unique hardware on Macs.

Neither of these steps are necessary when running within a virtual environment, as those tools both run Windows from a virtual disk image that sits in the regular Mac OS X file system, and supply drivers for the virtual hardware they emulate, presenting a generic PC environment of standard network, graphics, and other virtual components to whatever version of Windows is installed.



Reformatting the disk with Boot Camp

If your hard drive is full or nearly full, you might have some initial pains preparing for Boot Camp. Youll need at a minimum 15 GB of free disk space to install Windows 7, and by free we mean really free; if you throw away just enough files to give yourself 15 GB, chances are your drive will still have files scattered around to the point that Boot Camp wont actually be able to clear out a partition space for Windows.

Thats because Boot Camp doesnt just allocate for Windows some of your drives disk space; it actually reformats the entire disk in place, lopping off a contiguous area of the disk to set up a blank disk partition, and shrinking down your boot volume to account for the difference.

This is a potentially dangerous operation, so make sure you have a full backup of your drive, either using a disk cloner utility or Time Machine to backup to an external USB drive or network server such as Time Capsule.

While weve never experienced any problems with repartitioning the disk in place, it makes no sense to perform this high wire act without a net, because any interruption or disk error could result in an invalid partition map and an unreadable volume that very likely cant be recovered.

Once you identify the amount of space you want to allocate for Windows, Boot Camp moves around your files on disk like Tetris pieces to create a free contiguous area it can partition for Windows. If it runs into too many files that cant be moved, it will ask you to solve the problem by imaging your drive to another disk and then moving it all back.

That operation, which can be done using Disk Utility, takes some time. Youll need to first select your drive and create an image of it (below) on another drive (such as an attached USB drive), then put your system in Firewire target mode and restore the image to the disk using another system. Another option would be to boot your system up from your Mac OS X install DVD and run Disk Utility from the disc to restore the image to your boot drive.



It may also be possible to defrag your drive using a disk optimization tool such as iDefrag, which can sometimes move around files that Boot Camp wont.

Ideally, Boot Camp will be able to find enough room to make those steps unnecessary. Even so, it will take some time (as much as a couple hours) for Boot Camp to complete the repartitioning step. Also, keep in mind that Boot Camp only knows how to start with a drive with one partition, so if youve already partitioned your boot disk, Boot Camp will insist you reformat it back to one single partition first.

Once complete, your drive will show up with two usable partitions, the first being your regular Mac boot drive, and the other with a horrible name along the lines of disk0s3. That stands for disk 0, slice 3, where slice means partition. There are two other invisible partitions, slice 0, the partition table, and slice 1, a 200 MB partition allocated to EFI. (Remember when the whole drive was less than 200 MB?) Slice 2 is your original Mac partition.



Making Windows feel at home on the Mac

Windows doesnt really know how to handle GPT, the type of partition table used by EFI, the boot firmware system used on all Intel Macs (and their equivalent to the OpenFirmware used by PowerPC Macs). However, Intel developed EFI with Windows in mind, so it made the standard backward compatible with MBR, the simpler partitioning scheme used by generic PCs that still depend upon BIOS rather than EFI.

Windows, including the new Windows 7, expects to find a BIOS boot environment and an MBR (master boot record) to identify the disk partition to be used during installation. Boot Camp prepares a dummy MBR in the GPT that identifies the new partitions it created, and the Macs EFI firmware pretends to be BIOS for Windows during the reboot process.

That allows Mac users to simply insert a Windows install DVD and directly boot from it; the software thinks its installing on an old fashioned, generic PC when really its running on a state-of-the-art EFI PC made by Apple.

Among other things, the fancy EFI firmware that Macs use support the same kinds of Mac-only features OpenFirmware has long provided, including:

Firewire target mode, which makes the disks partitions visible to another system via Firewire
Option boot for selecting a startup disk and partition at reboot
C boot for starting up from an optical drive

BIOS PCs have to manually configure the boot volume, and cant boot the system into target mode. They also typically only offer experimental-quality USB booting, something Microsoft doesnt officially support in Windows. That greatly complicates the task of trying to install Windows on an external USB drive, making it something that Apples Boot Camp subsequently doesnt support either.

Brave souls can download an EFI utility and edit their copy of the Windows installer to attempt to install Windows on an external USB disk, but this isnt a task for the faint of heart. Install Windows to a Macintosh USB drive (without Bootcamp). « Tube Shards

While Windows cant take advantage of all the benefits of the Macs modern firmware, EFI does make it easy to select between Mac OS X and Windows at boot, and also enables the system to select the desired boot device from within either operating system (using Apples supplied control panel under Windows), something Windows cant do when running on a dual-booting, generic PC.

Direct installation of Windows using Boot Camp

The install process of Windows keeps getting more sophisticated. The new Windows 7 beta is now on par with the first releases of Mac OS X. Starting with Windows 2000, Microsoft moved its desktop operating system from a DOS-based startup and installer to one using the NT kernel. However, Windows still dropped down into text mode during the installation, just as NeXTSTEP, the predecessor to Mac OS X, once did. The Windows install experience is now entirely graphical from the initial screen (below top) thorough the install progress steps (below bottom), which are presented as if in an active, Aero-styled window (albeit non-functional, as the window is only ornamental).





Apples Mac OS X installer boots a pared down version of Mac OS X from the DVD to run its install process. That enables the install DVD to also run some handy and familiar Mac OS X apps prior to the install process, including the full version of Disk Utility for examining, verifying, and formatting volumes. The Windows 7 installer runs as a custom system with some integrated options for performing just a few disk operations.

One is required when installing Windows 7 on the partition prepared by Boot Camp, because Windows 7 demands an NTFS disk partition to begin installing. In the install image below, Windows reports seeing all of the disk partitions, although it thinks the GPT partition 0 is unallocated.



The partition we want to install Windows on is partition 3, labeled BOOTCAMP, but the installer says thats not possible. To get around this problem, click on Drive options (advanced), which reveals the option to Format partition 3 (below). Click Ok to dismiss the warning that the partition might have something on it (it doesnt). The format is done rapidly, as the FAT volume only needs a quick NTFS volume format written on it.



Once that step is past, Windows 7 installs itself for about a half hour, then presents some installation options related to setting up an initial user account, automatic system update preferences, and the new HomeGroup sharing features. Windows 7 then sets up networking, allowing you to select a WiFi network and log in. If you allow it, Windows 7 immediately downloads and installs a couple of updates, although they arent actually identified until they are being installed.

On page 2 of 2: Easy drivers with Boot Camp; and Installing third party security and Apple apps for Windows.

Easy drivers with Boot Camp

Once you arrive at the Windows 7 desktop, insert your Leopard install DVD and Windows will offer to install the software drivers Apple provides (below top). This process provides over a dozen custom drivers (below bottom) for all of the unique hardware supplied on every Mac, from the trackpad to the audio, network, and graphics adapters to USB and devices such as the iSight cameras built into MacBooks.





This simple one step installer makes installing Windows on a Mac easier than installing it on a generic PC, as most PC makers require you to select and then download a series of driver install files and then typically install each one sequentially, sometimes with reboots in between. If Apple had any interest in selling Macs with Windows pre-installed just like other PC makers, it could certainly do so, and could offer a nicer install experience, to boot.

The Boot Camp drivers Apple supplies are intended for use with XP or Vista, and were delivered prior to the beta of Windows 7. Even so, there are few problems being reported by Mac users playing with the new beta. You should also install the updated drivers supplied in Boot Camp Update 2.1 for Windows Vista 32 or Boot Camp Update 2.1 for Windows Vista 64 (depending on the 32 or 64-bit version of Windows 7 you installed). You might also need to run the Troubleshoot Compatibility wizard in Windows 7 to get the system to recognize the Apple supplied drivers. And of course, remember that Windows 7 is still in beta and that Microsoft warns against using it for anything apart from testing purposes.

In our limited testing, Windows 7 appears to have fewer problems with device drivers compared to Vista at its launch. The new beta had no problem identifying a generic USB hard drive that Vista had choked on, and it had no problem identifying an iPod that Vista had earlier refused to work with. In some cases we did have to tell Windows to search for a driver for certain devices (including, oddly, the video card driver), but it seemed to work pretty well in identifying what was needed after the initial push.

Installing third party security and Apple apps for Windows

Once Windows is installed, youll want to activate anti-virus and anti-malware software. Microsoft provides Windows Defender for malware, but youll need to obtain an anti-virus tool. In addition to the beta software and paid version of AVG that Microsoft links to, you can also install a free, basic version of AVG.

Youll probably also want to install Apples familiar Safari browser, which will provide the option of installing Apple Software Update mechanism. That will ask to update itself, and then will recommend installing QuickTime (below). Once you install that, Apple will recommend Bonjour (for local discovery of printers and Mac and AirPort file shares) and iTunes, which will recommend installation of the MobileMe sync setup control panel for Windows.



The download recommendations supplied by Apples Software Update drove Windows-centric pundits completely bananas as they fretted in anguish about Apples use of the popularity of iTunes to spread its other free software to Windows users. Mac users will probably just find the recommendations useful, particularly if they want their Windows setup to use the same familiar apps and to sync their data with their Mac via MobileMe. In addition to Apples optional Windows apps, Boot Camp also installs a control panel in Windows for various settings unique to the Mac, including setting a boot drive preference, and options involving F-keys and an infrared remote, and an option to restart after a power failure.

While Apples software for Windows offers Mac users a familiar experience while working in Windows, Microsoft itself has made many of the elements in Windows 7 more similar to the Mac OS X desktop than ever before. The next segment will take a look.
post #2 of 47
I installed Windows 7 on my 24" iMac last night. I let Boot Camp partition my drive, then I clicked the "Quit and Install Later" button. I inserted my Windows 7 Beta disc and restarted my computer holding down the ALT key. I selected to boot from the CD and went from there.

The only problem I had was with the sound. I installed all the drivers from the Leopard disc, but the sound still didn't work. I went to Realtek's website and downloaded the most recent drivers, and that fixed the problem. I'm not sure if this has happened to other people, but it's not that hard to fix.
post #3 of 47
Boot camp is actually completely unecessary if you would rather just manually install any version of windows including windows 7 assuming you create a ntfs partition first. I booted to the win7 dvd, installed to the blank ntfs partition and loaded any drivers needed from either Intel directly or whatever hardware manufacturer was needed. You are more likely to get the latest driver updates this way for some of your hardware. That said, this was on a 2008 mac pro. Some other macs may not be as easy without bootcamp if chipset and other internal hardware drivers are not redily identified by windows. So now if I hold the OPT key soen at bootup, I have the choioce of MAc or Windows and if I hit windows, then I further get the choice of Vista or Windows 7 which boot on separate partitions of the same NTFS disk. Mac is installed on a separate drive altogether and a 3rd drive stores FAT32 data so it can be shared between all.
{2010 Mac Pro-6 core 3.33-12gb 1333 ram-ati5870-velociraptor 600's-SL/win7/64-Konnekt Live/Onkyo-Dell3007wfp}
{2008 Mac Pro-8 core 3.2's-16GB-evga285} {MBP17}{ipad}{iphone 4 blk16gb}
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{2010 Mac Pro-6 core 3.33-12gb 1333 ram-ati5870-velociraptor 600's-SL/win7/64-Konnekt Live/Onkyo-Dell3007wfp}
{2008 Mac Pro-8 core 3.2's-16GB-evga285} {MBP17}{ipad}{iphone 4 blk16gb}
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post #4 of 47
When exactly did AppleInsider sell out to Microsoft? These Windows 7 beta articles just keep coming.
post #5 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Yohe View Post

When exactly did AppleInsider sell out to Microsoft? These Windows 7 beta articles just keep coming.

Yeah, made me wonder too. As if this how-to is relevant to anything Apple.
post #6 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Yohe View Post

When exactly did AppleInsider sell out to Microsoft? These Windows 7 beta articles just keep coming.

Never heard of "know thy enemy"?
In Windows, a window can be a document, it can be an application, or it can be a window that contains other documents or applications. Theres just no consistency. Its just a big grab bag of monkey...
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In Windows, a window can be a document, it can be an application, or it can be a window that contains other documents or applications. Theres just no consistency. Its just a big grab bag of monkey...
Reply
post #7 of 47
Oh my, what an unprofessional article. Sorry to say but it's just the truth. Is it because of misinformation or a simple strategy so that Windows does look worse than it might be?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

While Windows cant take advantage of all the benefits of the Macs modern firmware, EFI does make it easy to select between Mac OS X and Windows at boot, ...

Windows Vista and 7 does support the same EFI in their 64bit versions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

The install process of Windows keeps getting more sophisticated. The new Windows 7 beta is now on par with the first releases of Mac OS X.

Windows 7 installation is exactly the same as Vista's since more than 2 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

This simple one step installer makes installing Windows on a Mac easier than installing it on a generic PC, as most PC makers require you to select and then download a series of driver install files and then typically install each one sequentially, sometimes with reboots in between.

Surprise! PC makers do not ask for installing any drivers. They are already installed! Well isn't this the main reason to buy a PC system with Windows pre installed?
On the other hand: if you install Windows for yourself you also don't have to even start an installation because Windows automatically downloads and installs drivers for almost every device out there. And only Anti Virus apps would need a reboot. Sound, graphics and web drivers do not need a reboot. Because these components aren't part of the kernel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

In our limited testing, Windows 7 appears to have fewer problems with device drivers compared to Vista at its launch.

Ouch. How can this be possible? How can a newer OS be more compatible to old hardware? It's impossible. But what's really the case is that there are more drivers for Vista out there now and Windows 7 does use almost the same driver model. Not the OS has to be compatible but the drivers have to be!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

The download recommendations supplied by Apples Software Update drove Windows-centric pundits completely bananas as they fretted in anguish about Apples use of the popularity of iTunes to spread its other free software to Windows users.

No! Please check your facts. It wasn't a "recommendation" but the default setting. So you always had to disable to install a browser just to get updates for iTunes! Only malware does behave like this. That was the problem and Apple has silently changed it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Microsoft itself has made many of the elements in Windows 7 more similar to the Mac OS X desktop than ever before.

Oh, please don't go that way. It's so childish and wrong until you provide an objective view of what really was copied by the two companies.
post #8 of 47
What about using VMware Fusion?
post #9 of 47
Here is an article explaining the many versions of Windows 7, and how only two will be available at retail.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2340311,00.asp

"The five versions available for U.S. customers will be: Windows 7 Starter, Windows 7 Home Premium, Windows 7 Professional, Windows 7 Enterprise and Windows 7 Ultimate. But Microsoft will only sell Windows 7 Home Premium and Windows 7 Professional at retail, in a bid to eliminate some of the confusion caused by a plethora of Windows Vista versions. A sixth version, Windows 7 Home Basic, will only be sold in emerging markets, Microsoft said."

One version of Windows would be easier.
post #10 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by TiAdiMundo View Post

Oh my, what an unprofessional article. Sorry to say but it's just the truth. ...

I don't think you are "sorry to say" at all, you are just trolling here.

I won't go through the tedium of answering each of your arguments here because your post was already long enough and I don't see how *any* of your points are valid. You are taking an extremely antagonistic point of view on the article and twisting everything to make it seem like an error of some kind when it's just not.

Just to take your first item (because I know you will just dismiss me unless I argue one of them) ...

Daniel says that "Windows cant take advantage of all the benefits (of EFI)" and you respond by telling us this is a lie, because the 64 bit version can. Given that some ridiculously small fraction of Windows users even know the 64 bit version exists, let alone use it, this just comes off as spin on your part. Also (technically), he just said that "Windows" (covers all products), doesn't take advantage of "all" of the benefits of EFI which is completely true if you want to get to that level of picky-ness.

it seems to me that you are taking apart this article (with some rather obvious biases of your own), by twisting picky little points that are essentially meaningless. Please troll somewhere else or come up with a much shorter list of complaints that are actually supportable by some kind of hard facts instead of opinion or spin.
In Windows, a window can be a document, it can be an application, or it can be a window that contains other documents or applications. Theres just no consistency. Its just a big grab bag of monkey...
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In Windows, a window can be a document, it can be an application, or it can be a window that contains other documents or applications. Theres just no consistency. Its just a big grab bag of monkey...
Reply
post #11 of 47
I've been running Windows 7 beta (32 bit) on my Core 2 Duo 2.0 GHz Blackbook for about a week now without any problems or hitches. If you have an older GMA950 graphics machine, fear not, Windows 7 will work for you. I chose the 32 bit version to be on the safe side, but I'm not technical enough to know if it really mattered or not.

I'm not sure why the article seems to make installation sound more complicated that it needs to be. It takes much less time and hassle to install Windows 7 than it does to install XP. I have no prior knowledge of Vista, so I can't speak to that.

Performance has been great so far, all in all, though I haven't done much on it other than play a game and do some browsing.

To clarify the article, Windows 7 takes up about 10 gigs of your drive for itself, so if you want to install X gigs of software after, make sure you partition X + 10, plus a little breathing room, of course.

Also, media makes a difference. I tried unsuccessfully to install W7 for about a week and couldn't figure out why it kept saying that the Windows installation disc couldn't be found when I hit the start install button in Boot Camp. This turned out to be because I burned the install disc on a rather old DVD-R I had lying around. After several loud curses and shiny coasters, I went to the store and got some DVD+Rs and tried again. This time, no problems, booted up like a charm.

I have no intentions of ever buying a non mac as my primary computer, but having the option of running Windows apps in Boot Camp is great and W7 even in beta is the best version of Windows I've ever used (so far).
post #12 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Yohe View Post

When exactly did AppleInsider sell out to Microsoft? These Windows 7 beta articles just keep coming.

Must be a slow news day.
If you want to call me names, tell me to shut up and f off...you will be ignored. I WILL NOT BE BULLIED!!
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If you want to call me names, tell me to shut up and f off...you will be ignored. I WILL NOT BE BULLIED!!
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post #13 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Yohe View Post

When exactly did AppleInsider sell out to Microsoft? These Windows 7 beta articles just keep coming.

As a Windows user who will join the OS X family this year (hopefully for good), I find this article useful to my OS transition. I'll definitely have to use Win XP/7 for some time yet.
All in all, I believe such articles help Apple much more than Microsoft.
post #14 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

Never heard of "know thy enemy"?

Yes, some of us have and for far too long.
If you want to call me names, tell me to shut up and f off...you will be ignored. I WILL NOT BE BULLIED!!
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If you want to call me names, tell me to shut up and f off...you will be ignored. I WILL NOT BE BULLIED!!
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post #15 of 47
Next up, "How to turn your Dodge Viper into a Ford Pinto!"
Always remember..wherever you go, there you are.
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Always remember..wherever you go, there you are.
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post #16 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by zunx View Post

What about using VMware Fusion?

Yeah, why bother with BootCamp? I'm not dissing, I just don't get the point.
post #17 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

Just to take your first item (because I know you will just dismiss me unless I argue one of them) ...

Daniel says that "Windows cant take advantage of all the benefits (of EFI)" and you respond by telling us this is a lie, because the 64 bit version can. Given that some ridiculously small fraction of Windows users even know the 64 bit version exists, let alone use it, this just comes off as spin on your part. Also (technically), he just said that "Windows" (covers all products), doesn't take advantage of "all" of the benefits of EFI which is completely true if you want to get to that level of picky-ness..

Vista SP1 has full UEFI 2.0 support and because that's the newest standard I think it's valid to say that Windows does fully support EFI. And what sense does it make to try to install a 32bit version on to an EFI-system?

The Apple platform is now not different than any other EFI PC platform.

But yeah, i'm just a regular troll...
post #18 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by hillstones View Post

.....caused by a plethora of Windows Vista versions.


Thank you hillstones, thank you.

post #19 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by TiAdiMundo View Post

Oh my, what an unprofessional article. Sorry to say but it's just the truth.

Well, it is a lot better than the previous article that was subsequently yanked (and for good reason - feel free to re-read the nonsense here) but beside that I tend to agree. I really wish these articles would stick to the objective (in this case, how to install Windows 7 on a Mac) rather than consistently wandering off into Microsoft-bashing and occasionally throwing in total untruths. For example, while I have experienced the "disk full" issue when using the Boot Camp Assistant, you do not need to make a copy of your disk to get around the problem; simply move your big files to an external disk temporarily and it works.

Basically, I already have a Mac and in that respect Apple has already "got me" - you don't need to write about how crap you think Microsoft and Windows is. Just stick to the point of the article and they'll be much better.
post #20 of 47
Complete idiots like usual.

Installing Windows on a Mac isn't always the same as installing on a PC and has to do with APPLE hardware. Though I think more thought should have been given into drivers and not spinnng Windows as worse or trying to catch up to OS X.

Second of all, the poster above is correct in the Windows Vista SP1 and later recognize EFI. Will we see PCs with EFI, I do not know.

But the spin is redicoulous. The installing of Windows is easier in my opinion than OS X. Vista and Windows 7 alike. In OS X if you have a blank (due to replacement of hard disk) you have extra steps that call for opening Disk Util where as with Windows its seamless in the fact that you can choose to install to a blank unpartioned disk and Windows will do that for you. With Windows 7 that is your only big question besides agreeing to a license agreement (same as OS X). You provide your product key when you start Windows 7 for the first time or anytime before activation. I'm just saying the Apple could make is simpler as well, including allowing resizing and partition manipulation like Windows does without wanting to delete partitions.

Windows 7 Drivers were hardly touched on, which is important. I find Apple lack of a great experience for its hardware with Windows is laughable especially back when Vista came out on several newsreports said the Macbook Pro was the best laptop for Vista. WRONG.

#1) The right click on the mouse is lacking. Yes it exists with two finger right clicking but the driver sucks and things I wish to do two finger scrolling instead when I place two fingers on my trackpad. I am not moving my fingers up and down on my White 2.4Ghz Macbook. I have complained alot to Apple. You can also see the hundreds of complaints on Apple Support Forums.

#2) WiFi & Bluetooth. Again, a half effort from Apple. There is no way to turn these devices into "Airplane Mode" or Off without going into device manager. Luckily Windows Vista and later have a method to turn of WiFi, but not Bluetooth. Sure it might be easy to blame on Windows, but Microsoft has historically allowed manufactures to develop their own solutions alot of which rely on hardware switches. It wouldn't be hard for Apple to make their Macs the best Windows computers by allowing a software switch that doesn't rely on the device manager. The device manager is used for permenantly disabling hardware, debuging, or updating drivers and as such turning off Bluetooth or Wifi there will cause your settings to be erased.

#3) Automatic Screen Brightness. Unlike most PCs, if I unplug my Macbook when in Windows the screen brightness does not automatically adjust like it does in OS X. Wouldn't be hard at all for Apple to implement something so elementary, but its another aspect of half effort for them

Now there is more but those 3 bug me the most. Sure 2 & 3 are excusable but a cripple mouse when right click is extremely important in Windows is not. Several have complained. I have pointed out that my computer was adveristed on TV and Apple.com to run Windows and having a right click that does not work properly is not running Windows. I guess they are suppose to get back to me on making a new driver.... uh huh.

Nokia Lumia 920, iPhone, Surface RT, Intel i3 Desktop with Windows 7 & Hackintosh, Power Cube G4

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Nokia Lumia 920, iPhone, Surface RT, Intel i3 Desktop with Windows 7 & Hackintosh, Power Cube G4

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post #21 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by TiAdiMundo View Post

Oh, please don't go that way. It's so childish and wrong until you provide an objective view of what really was copied by the two companies.

Microsoft are just bringing back the Windows 1.0 dock. That great piece of innovative software that stole from the work Apple had produced for the Mac (which built on the Xerox Parc research effort) and made it worse.
post #22 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateKylie View Post

The installing of Windows is easier in my opinion than OS X. Vista and Windows 7 alike. In OS X if you have a blank (due to replacement of hard disk) you have extra steps that call for opening Disk Util where as with Windows its seamless in the fact that you can choose to install to a blank unpartioned disk and Windows will do that for you. With Windows 7 that is your only big question besides agreeing to a license agreement (same as OS X). You provide your product key when you start Windows 7 for the first time or anytime before activation. I'm just saying the Apple could make is simpler as well, including allowing resizing and partition manipulation like Windows does without wanting to delete partitions.

Missing from the Windows 7 installer:

[1] The ability to customise the install. Mac OS X lets you choose as many (or few) languages as you'd like, X11, BSD Subsystem etc.
[2] An estimate of how long left in minutes, not percent, which is basically useless. Incidently the Mac has offered this feature since at least 1999 when I first used a Mac.
[3] A detailed log to watch what is happening during the install. Again this was in the installer for OS X 10.0.
post #23 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

Never heard of "know thy enemy"?



Hell I even talked to them. I sent in a report to M$ from my Windoze 7. I told them nothing could get W7 to print to my networked printer until I installed Apple's Bonjour. Bonjour worked like a charm. As did iTunes, QuickTime and Safari. I suggested they ship these items with W7.
Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
nMac Pro 6 Core, MacBookPro i7, MacBookPro i5, iPhones 5 and 5s, iPad Air, 2013 Mac mini, SE30, IIFx, Towers; G4 & G3.
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Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
nMac Pro 6 Core, MacBookPro i7, MacBookPro i5, iPhones 5 and 5s, iPad Air, 2013 Mac mini, SE30, IIFx, Towers; G4 & G3.
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post #24 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateKylie View Post

#2) WiFi & Bluetooth. Again, a half effort from Apple. There is no way to turn these devices into "Airplane Mode" or Off without going into device manager. Luckily Windows Vista and later have a method to turn of WiFi, but not Bluetooth. Sure it might be easy to blame on Windows, but Microsoft has historically allowed manufactures to develop their own solutions alot of which rely on hardware switches. It wouldn't be hard for Apple to make their Macs the best Windows computers by allowing a software switch that doesn't rely on the device manager. The device manager is used for permenantly disabling hardware, debuging, or updating drivers and as such turning off Bluetooth or Wifi there will cause your settings to be erased.

It's not Apple's responsibility to lead the way by writing special software to make up for Windows inadequacies. They'll give you a premium experience in OS X. Bootcamp is there for compatibility, it's not to provide a premium Windows experience.
post #25 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by columbus View Post

It's not Apple's responsibility to lead the way by writing special software to make up for Windows inadequacies. They'll give you a premium experience in OS X. Bootcamp is there for compatibility, it's not to provide a premium Windows experience.

This is not special software. In fact every OEM or Wifi/Bluetooth creator has their own solution espeically consider the most of its a hardware switch nothing Microsoft could code for in advance short of creating a standard. Which is impossible as new techonlogies such as WiMax constantly emerge but they still need a custom solution to follow the LAW on board aircraft or other situations.

The fact is on board aircraft, I would be unable to run Windows without going into device manager and disabling bluetooth. Again, every other OEM has a toggle for this. I understand Apple is different, but it would probably have taken them 30 minutes most.

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post #26 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

Never heard of "know thy enemy"?

Or, "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer!"

Ten years ago, we had Steve Jobs, Bob Hope and Johnny Cash.  Today we have no Jobs, no Hope and no Cash.

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Ten years ago, we had Steve Jobs, Bob Hope and Johnny Cash.  Today we have no Jobs, no Hope and no Cash.

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post #27 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by hillstones View Post

Here is an article explaining the many versions of Windows 7, and how only two will be available at retail.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2340311,00.asp

Why not preinstalling windows 7 on all Apple computers?! This could be a very basic yet powerfull version. Skipping the media center but with improved security and performance optimised to the Apple gear.

It's a winwin for both.
post #28 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by columbus View Post

Missing from the Windows 7 installer:

[1] The ability to customise the install. Mac OS X lets you choose as many (or few) languages as you'd like, X11, BSD Subsystem etc.
[2] An estimate of how long left in minutes, not percent, which is basically useless. Incidently the Mac has offered this feature since at least 1999 when I first used a Mac.
[3] A detailed log to watch what is happening during the install. Again this was in the installer for OS X 10.0.

#1 I do agree the Language selection can be better but the fact is Windows is licensed per langauge and I can't switch English to Norwegian. The only other thing is selecting X11 and Printer Drivers. Windows installs all drivers for future compatibility and doesn't have something akin to X11 and or BSD (well it did back in the Windows 3.1-ME days with DOS) and Leopard doesn't have BSD Subsystem as an option, I don't think. Vista Ultimate lets you download languages after the fact. This is really a mute point overall as the Windows method of less dialogs or options is more simple and allows less confusion. Power users can heavily alter Windows after the fact or use command switches or automated setup.

#2 The OS X estimator is pure useless. I'm my use I have seen it start out small then get larger the first few minutes and then remove minutes at the end. Windows XP also had a minute countdown that was fairly accurate but the new installer is actually quicker so it doesn't bother me. Again its very gimicky and percentage is more accurate than time. Knowing your 70% done is more useful than the lie that you have 10 minutes left. Because generally you're either 12min or 8min.

#3 Windows does operate detalied logs, but they are hidden from the end users. Again IT people know where to find these logs or as I mentioned before use automated installation the puts the log where they want it and can then customize windows.

I find the current installation manner to be simple and will work well for the majority. I still stand that the current Windows setup is more simple and including the partioning tools specifically by letting you select a blank hard drive is more simple and more useful than an estimator that doesn't work or staring at logs when you can easily dive into them after the effect if the install doesn't work. I don't think most people care and will just come back to their computer in 30 minutes time.

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post #29 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateKylie View Post

#2 The OS X estimator is pure useless. I'm my use I have seen it start out small then get larger the first few minutes and then remove minutes at the end. Windows XP also had a minute countdown that was fairly accurate but the new installer is actually quicker so it doesn't bother me. Again its very gimicky and percentage is more accurate than time. Knowing your 70% done is more useful than the lie that you have 10 minutes left. Because generally you're either 12min or 8min.




The level of effort to try and justify this amuses me greatly.

70% is pure useless if you don't know how long that 70% took.
It's even worse — you only get told 70% of a particular stage, with no context for how long this stage takes in relation to the whole install.

In my experience of installing OS X, the estimate is very accurate. It will take away minutes at the beginning whilst is establishes copy speeds etc. after that its always correct to around a minute or so. I.e. If it says 18 minutes at the start, you're normally restarting in 18 minutes.

Also the custom install dialog requires a separate button to be clicked. By default the installer does a simple click through upgrade.

Also OS X verifies optical media can be all read before ploughing ahead regardless.

In short:
OS X combines power and elegance. If you want a simple click through you can, if you want logs, customisation and partitioning it's also easy, no IT person required.
Its makes simple things easy and complex things possible.
post #30 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by columbus View Post



The level of effort to try and justify this amuses me greatly.

70% is pure useless if you don't know how long that 70% took.
It's even worse you only get told 70% of a particular stage, with no context for how long this stage takes in relation to the whole install.

In my experience of installing OS X, the estimate is very accurate. It will take away minutes at the beginning whilst is establishes copy speeds etc. after that its always correct to around a minute or so. I.e. If it says 18 minutes at the start, you're normally restarting in 18 minutes.

Also the custom install dialog requires a separate button to be clicked. By default the installer does a simple click through upgrade.

Also OS X verifies optical media can be all read before ploughing ahead regardless.

In short:
OS X combines power and elegance. If you want a simple click through you can, if you want logs, customisation and partitioning it's also easy, no IT person required.
Its makes simple things easy and complex things possible.

70% is never useless unless you didn't happen to be there when you started the install. In fact Windows uses check marks in addition to a general progress bar at the bottom so you always know where you are. I'm glad you found the OS X time to be reliable, I have found its quite off. I'm sorry most people don't stare at it for 5 minutes so it can figure out how fast its moving along, in fact most people would probably even leave during the disk verification.

Also I wanted to add for people install Windows on a Mac, that my support agent just told me that if you hit Shift + F10 after you select something, it will right click on that item. If you have a laptop you may have to hit FN+Shift+F10 depending on your settings. This is a workaround if you have right click issues.

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post #31 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateKylie View Post

70% is never useless unless you didn't happen to be there when you started the install.

But the 70% only relates to the current part of the install (e.g copying files…)
And it doesn't just require you to be there at the start of the install.
It also requires you to remember what time it was, work out the time elapsed and then work out the percentages to get the time remaining.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateKylie View Post

In fact Windows uses check marks in addition to a general progress bar at the bottom so you always know where you are.

Well, there is a green bar and although it is proportional it only updates three times during the install, and it doesn't help with telling you how long is left.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateKylie View Post

I'm sorry most people don't stare at it for 5 minutes so it can figure out how fast its moving along

And with the Mac they don't have to, they can just glance at the time and walk away.
No math required.

No offence intended, but when your in a hole, this best idea is to stop digging.
post #32 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateKylie View Post

70% is never useless unless you didn't happen to be there when you started the install. In fact Windows uses check marks in addition to a general progress bar at the bottom so you always know where you are. I'm glad you found the OS X time to be reliable, I have found its quite off.

I have to agree with you on this. I'd rather see the percentage of what is complete so far a neither system has shown to be competent in making an accurate time until finished statement. Even when the install has finished it still takes several minutes for the finalization/optimation to complete, which, IMO, should be part of the time until finished. I understand the difficulties in determining such time on the fly and it's not really a big deal so I don't really expect to see any real effort put forth in making it more accurate.
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post #33 of 47
Just a caveat that while the beta is stable, not everything works as well as you might except. Any games using Punkbuster are problematic, and understadably so. Also, if you're using the 64-bit version some applications won't work - for example Google Chrome and Daemon Tools (or any other similar program I've tried). Also, sleep mode doesn't work well.

I don't want to be all negative, and I can add that if you're not planning on playing certain games and are looking for basic compatibility, or just want to check out Windows 7, you will probably appreciate some of the niceties and usability features.
post #34 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by TiAdiMundo View Post

Vista SP1 has full UEFI 2.0 support and because that's the newest standard I think it's valid to say that Windows does fully support EFI. And what sense does it make to try to install a 32bit version on to an EFI-system?

The Apple platform is now not different than any other EFI PC platform.

But yeah, i'm just a regular troll...

I'm with you. In general, I'm finding many articles here very biased. Still, some decent info can be found as well.

Personally, I'm interested in Mac so this is good way to learn things about that line of products, but also about community.
post #35 of 47
I love Boot Camp. VM software sticks it's tenticles in to my kernel and leaves daemons running even when I'm not using a VM. The two things alone are enough to make me use Boot Camp instead.
post #36 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by TiAdiMundo View Post

Oh my, what an unprofessional article. Sorry to say but it's just the truth. Is it because of misinformation or a simple strategy so that Windows does look worse than it might be?


Windows Vista and 7 does support the same EFI in their 64bit versions.


Windows 7 installation is exactly the same as Vista's since more than 2 years.


Surprise! PC makers do not ask for installing any drivers. They are already installed! Well isn't this the main reason to buy a PC system with Windows pre installed?
On the other hand: if you install Windows for yourself you also don't have to even start an installation because Windows automatically downloads and installs drivers for almost every device out there. And only Anti Virus apps would need a reboot. Sound, graphics and web drivers do not need a reboot. Because these components aren't part of the kernel.


Ouch. How can this be possible? How can a newer OS be more compatible to old hardware? It's impossible. But what's really the case is that there are more drivers for Vista out there now and Windows 7 does use almost the same driver model. Not the OS has to be compatible but the drivers have to be!

No! Please check your facts. It wasn't a "recommendation" but the default setting. So you always had to disable to install a browser just to get updates for iTunes! Only malware does behave like this. That was the problem and Apple has silently changed it.


Oh, please don't go that way. It's so childish and wrong until you provide an objective view of what really was copied by the two companies.

I agree... If you hate windows so much do not write an article about how to get it's new OS on a mac please. Windows copied os x.... What year was quick launch available again? Updating usability of an existing feature... Is copying in what way?
post #37 of 47
Does anyone know if you have to go through the convoluted reformatting option that he describes on page 1 with Fista?

I have a hardcore Winblows friend who is just about ready to come into the light because I have convinced him that BootCamp is his safety blanket. However, I don't to have to walk him through this confusing process of reformatting because the installer says that you cannot install Winblows on that partition. I'm afraid I'll lose another potential convert.

Thanks in advance for any replies!
post #38 of 47
Windows 7 is not a new Windows but the Vista that it should have been and this report says it's still just as slow at some important tasks, if not slower than Vista:

http://www.infoworld.com/article/09/...lticore_4.html

It is still beta but the core design is still the same so will have a number of the same flaws.

I do think that although it takes a few cues from OS X's designs, the interface is still a mess. Too much transparency in all the wrong places and no thought put into the layout. Still navigating drives by random letters.

The multi-touch looks like it's not going to be very consistent or overly useful:

http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/05/w...mmick-for-now/

but it will probably be refined and will likely work better on a tablet device. The OS really needs to have better design for it though and the whole window-shift when the scrollbar hits the limits look really bad vs an internal bounce.

I don't see anything but useless features mired in a messy interface just like Windows has always been and nothing that would make me want to move from OS X. If Apple make Snow Leopard faster than Leopard with some other nice additions for computation, it's going to look very nice relative to it. Then Apple can do a multi-touch desktop when the hardware/software interaction is at a point where it makes sense on the desktop.
post #39 of 47
I tried to install Windows 7 twice now on my 24" iMac. Both times it ended in a blue screen of death. I beat my head against it long enough. I don't need to run Windows that badly.
post #40 of 47
I have a 20" aluminum iMac with Mac OS 10.5.6. I have the Apple wireless keyboard and a USB turntable. I got Windows 7 Beta to install okay. Windows refuses to recognize my iMac audio. It thinks I have USB speakers. Also, if I install the Boot Camp add ons from the DVD, the bluetooth keyboard does not work at all. I had to reinstall Windows and use it without the Boot Camp add ons from the DVD. They keyboard is okay as Windows runs an emulator. Also, I am using a USB mouse. I like Windows. It doesn't make me a bad Mac person. I simply want to use Windows some of the time. Once in a while there is a piece of software that just isn't available for Mac OS X. So for now, Windows 7 Beta works, but with no sound. I hope someone can help me figure out what I'm doing wrong, or not doing.
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