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Labels return.

post #1 of 63
Thread Starter 
Well, Unsanity did it again--they've released a haxie that gives labels back in OS X.

It is amazing to me how popular these guys have become by simply LISTENING to what the Mac public wants, and then providing it...something that Cupertino is not particularly known for.
post #2 of 63
yes! i just noticed that and emailed all of my friends! i know some people never used them, but they were a boon for reminding yourself something simple like a file had been backed up to a file server or something.

also, here's a trick for those who don't know...

i hated the colors that labels made some of my pretty icons. the solution? any label that is a shade of GRAY is completely invisible! so what's the point, you may ask, of making an invisible label? simple... when i do a fresh install, the first thing i do is open my hard drive window, select all, command-option-shift-right-arrow to open ALL folders on my machine...

if you have a slower machine, go grab a cup of coffee now.

when you get back, select all, and label EVERYTHING with a gray lable that's designated something like "clean install." since you can search based on label information, you can then do all sorts of tricks for finding items that have been installed since your clean install... without having to look at thousands of pink icons everywhere all the time.

[ 10-10-2002: Message edited by: rok ]</p>
When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
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Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

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When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
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post #3 of 63
HURRA ! HURRA ! HURRA !

ALLELLUIA !

This was about time ! Why did Apple never implemented this in OS X is beyond me. I simply can't understand this. Labels are so fundamental to me, I'll pay the 128 $ upgrade to Jaguar just because of this !

This axie will definitely find a home on my Mac ! I hope it wont screw my system or slow it down. Did someone tried it ? Any problems with it ?

%?$#@&! This is a major thing for OS X.

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post #4 of 63
I heard Apple is working on something better than lables for the next release of OS X. Wonder what it could be and whether it's true?
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post #5 of 63
How can it be better ? By sticking an animated "stamp" on an icon ? By making it glowing, flashing, jumping, rotating ?

Another gadget that will slow down the system. You'll need four 2000000 GHz processors to have Apple's labels on your system.

Doh !

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post #6 of 63
damnit. ubb ate my post.

Well, basically I was dscribing the excellent metadata accessible in the BFS. HOPEFULLY we'll get something nice like that... mmmm....
post #7 of 63
[quote]Originally posted by Brad:
<strong>HOPEFULLY we'll get something nice like that... mmmm....</strong><hr></blockquote>

What ? The 2000000 GHz processors ?

Not even a 2 GHz <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> Maybe in 6 years from now. We'll see a 1.33 GHz, after that a 1.5 GHz, and after a 1.52 GHz, and a 1.525 GHz, and a 1.5252 GHz, and a 1.5253 Ghz, etc... Oups ! Sorry, I'm off topic here.

PLease, who tested the labels haxie ? Is it safe ? Stable ?

[ 10-10-2002: Message edited by: Kali ]</p>

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post #8 of 63
[quote]Originally posted by Kali:
<strong>How can it be better ? By sticking an animated "stamp" on an icon ? By making it glowing, flashing, jumping, rotating ?</strong><hr></blockquote>

&lt;Pictures hundreds of spinning icons in a window&gt;
AAhhh!!! :eek:
*Passes out on the floor*
horrid misuse of cool technology
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post #9 of 63
[quote]Originally posted by Kali:
<strong>How can it be better ? By sticking an animated "stamp" on an icon ? By making it glowing, flashing, jumping, rotating ?</strong><hr></blockquote>

No, by making it more intelligent.

Labels are, frankly, a crufty little hack utilizing a single byte of Finder info attached to files. Non-extensible, non-portable. Bleah.

As metadata goes, labels are pretty blasted pathetic... and yet they're very useful. Imagine what *real* metadata will be able to do for you. Think iTunes style browsing, but for any file on your system. The Finder's 10.2 search field is a small teensy step in that direction, but imagine being able to slap any tag you wish on a file, and *multiple* tags, ala iPhoto, and then say "Give me all files with the Project1 tag and the Project2 tag, but not the Project7 tag, regardless of name, location, document type, etc."

This level of metadata is what BeFS approached, and since the brain behind that is now working at Apple... this is what folks have been alluding to. Frankly, I miss labels... but I'm not willing to introduce Yet Another Hack into my system that I end up relying on when I know that a much better replacement is around the corner, and I'll just have to re-do everything *again*.

For a preview taste of the types of metadata Apple seems to be going for, open up Project Builder, and take a gander at the File Types preference pane.

Yeah, Unsanity is to be commended for bringing a feature to the system that people have wanted... but I can't give many points for their vision. :/ In the long run, I think that this will end up being a negative for many folks. *shrug*
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post #10 of 63
To me, the labels colors are a visual aid which is VERY quick. I mean, by a simple look, I can manage all my files in the same folder, especially in the list view (which I use very frequently). I NEVER do a search by labels.

For example, I may have many new files I didn't had time to test, mixed with many other tested files in the same folder. When I open that folder, I see instantly which file I have to try, without reading its name. I'm a visual person, so the labels are fundamental.

I hate to scroll down a long list of files in a folder to search a specific file, while I don't know its name. If the file is important enough to me, I put it in red (or another color) so I can identify it very quickly. That's why I use labels a lot.

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post #11 of 63
[quote]Originally posted by Kali:
<strong>To me, the labels colors are a visual aid which is VERY quick. I mean, by a simple look, I can manage all my files in the same folder, especially in the list view (which I use very frequently). I NEVER do a search by labels.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Um, because you can't?

[quote]<strong>For example, I may have many new files I didn't had time to test, mixed with many other tested files in the same folder. When I open that folder, I see instantly which file I have to try, without reading its name. I'm a visual person, so the labels are fundamental.

I hate to scroll down a long list of files in a folder to search a specific file, while I don't know its name. If the file is important enough to me, I put it in red (or another color) so I can identify it very quickly. That's why I use labels a lot.</strong><hr></blockquote>

And... that wasn't the point. A visual feedback (like color coding) is independent of how the labels are implemented. One is the UI, the other is how the metadata is defined and executed. Of the two, the latter is much more important for how the system can be used and extended.

The idea of color coding files is great... the implementation of labels blew chunks. I can only hope that Unsanity chose to improve on it.

Rich metadata has the potential to be a huge leap in how we interact with the system. Color coding is one way to present tags on files, but it suffers in that it only lets you show *one* tag at a time. Each file gets one single tag, and that's it... great for really simplistic situations, but not nearly powerful enough for serious uses.

Of course, even with an incredibly rich metadata you can provide a nice simple presentation like color coding, and I do hope they keep that as an option.

My point was that labels are extremely limited in what they *could* do, if revisited and intelligently designed... which is being done.

I used labels extensively under 9, and definitely know the usefulness of them. But, I don't want to install a temporary patch now, only to have to do a full setup *again* when the rich metadata is implemented in the filesystem.
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post #12 of 63
YESSSSSS LABELS!!! THANK YE FLIPPING GODS
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post #13 of 63
Ooooh, Metadata discussion.

I think it was LimeWire who added a feature to Gnutella called "schemas". It's an xml format (.xsd, I think) for generic file types such as "Application", "Movie", "Music", etc. Shareaza (PeeCee-only, sorry) uses it for filtering searches.

Apple should implement that. As schemas are xml files, the schmeas known to the OS can be extended just by adding more schema URI's.

Another thing I thought of: add "likelihood" to metadata searches.

For example, I have a folder of downloads, which include apps, text files, songs, ...

I'm searching for a song (=&gt; schema "music"; this schema provides additional fields such as "length" and "artist"), which I'm certain isn't any longer than 8 minutes, and at the same time definitly longer than three. I *think* that its artist is Bruce Springstein (intentionally misspelled).

Finder then lists all songs with a length of three through 8 minutes. It shows those from Bruce Springstein (if any) first and highlights them with a special color, but it *also* shows those with "Bruce Springsteen" (which are certainly *more*, so you'll learn this way that this is probably the right spelling), and even those with a totally different artist (but highlighted in a yet different manner).
post #14 of 63
admittedly, i have not checked under jaguar to see if you can or not, but, kickaha, you've always been able to search via labels under os 9 and its predecessors (hence my little tip at the top of the thread). maybe they removed that...

and labels are buried somewhere in the system for sheer backwards compatiblity. notice that you have been able to reveal the "label" field of a list view since os 10.0, even though you couldn't apply them. that's because it had to be able to see the label on your os 9 files if necessary (or rather, that's what i figure it's there for)
When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
Reply
When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
Reply
post #15 of 63
Honestly, what's all the fuss about labels? Why can't you just stick a custom icon on 'important' things? xicons.com has hundreds of neat looking ones. If it's just a visual cue, why not spruce it up a bit?
post #16 of 63
[quote]Originally posted by torifile:
<strong>Honestly, what's all the fuss about labels? Why can't you just stick a custom icon on 'important' things? xicons.com has hundreds of neat looking ones. If it's just a visual cue, why not spruce it up a bit?</strong><hr></blockquote>

i think that would be a fine idea, so long as someone created a contextual add-on that made appllying a custom icon almost a one-or-two click affair.

abd by the way, you're not the threadkiller. I AM. i like to think it's because i contribute items of such blinding brilliance that everyone collectively shrugs and says "well, i guess that explains that."
When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
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When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
Reply
post #17 of 63
[quote]Originally posted by rok:
<strong>abd by the way, you're not the threadkiller. I AM. i like to think it's because i contribute items of such blinding brilliance that everyone collectively shrugs and says "well, i guess that explains that." </strong><hr></blockquote>

Naw, keep trying.

[quote]<strong>admittedly, i have not checked under jaguar to see if you can or not, but, kickaha, you've always been able to search via labels under os 9 and its predecessors (hence my little tip at the top of the thread). maybe they removed that...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes, you could, but you can't under X because they don't exist in any meaningful form.

[quote]<strong>and labels are buried somewhere in the system for sheer backwards compatiblity. notice that you have been able to reveal the "label" field of a list view since os 10.0</strong><hr></blockquote>

Nope, gone in 10.2. There is no evidence of labels left in the UI.

The byte for label information is still embedded in each file migrated over from OS 9, but that doesn't mean that there's any 'backwards compatibility'. As of 10.2, they are gone, gone, gone.

[quote]<strong>even though you couldn't apply them. that's because it had to be able to see the label on your os 9 files if necessary (or rather, that's what i figure it's there for)
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Nope. It was merely a bit of detrius left over from the UI design decisions.

Labels are gone, as of 10.2. There is no UI support, there is no underlying support to speak of, and certainly none that can be counted on for future use. Labels are deprecated. I'm sure that single byte will continue to hang around for years strictly because the HFS+ Finder info field is already established, but don't be shocked if it's suddenly used by Apple for something else at some point somewhere down the road. (Vague enough for ya? )

And torifile, the biggest problem with the custom icons is that the OS has no inherent idea what an icon *means*. You've lost all search capability.

Metadata isn't about visual cues (although that is one way to display metadata easily), it is about adding semantic meaning to existing files such that they can reasoned about, searched on, filtered, and otherwise organized.

Think about how most users currently organize their files: Images, ProjectA, FinancesFor1999, etc. The problem is, we are restricted by a hierarchical approach: the assumption is that a folder contains other files and folders that all conform to the concept explained by that folder's name, so anything in the Images folder is an image, anything in ProjectA has to do with ProjectA, etc. But where do you put an image associated with ProjectA? Do you put it in the Images folder, or the ProjectA folder? What if a file is used by Projects A, B, and C? Do you make three copies?

Now the 'obvious' solution is to use aliases... and in many cases that works fine... but you can't search on alias relationships to their enclosing folders (where the name of the enclosing folder is the semantic tag used to help describe the file). With metadata, you can.

Labels were a first, tiny baby step towards metadata, as were file and creator types.

Imagine instead a single metadata system that lets you attach any sort of tag you can think of to a file, both filetype and creator app, a viewer app preference, projects, personal data, and, of course, simple labels. This gets us more than we *ever* had under 9.

And I can guarantee you, from every hint coming from the Fruit Co, that it's coming our way as soon as is possible.

They're deprecating the older styles of metadata to prepare everyone for a huge leap... the transition kind of sucks, but that's to be expected.

In the meantime, there's Unsanity's Label haxie for those that feel the need. To me, it feels a bit like eating dry crackers while looking through the window of a steakhouse restaurant. *shrug*
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post #18 of 63
Kickaha is my new god. Sorry, groverat.

You have managed to respond to this topic exactly as I had thought and have said it more eloquantly and consicely than I probably would have.

Gracias.
post #19 of 63
Thread Starter 
Bah. At least Unsanity offers crackers.

I think Cupertino is pigheaded in the extreme if they strip out labels, kill them dead and then make us W A I T for a replacement.

Why couldn't we have KEPT the labels until such time as they had something better?

Wait...that sounds...sensible!
post #20 of 63
I've installed the Unsanity Haxie, and I can say that it works GREAT!

1. Completely transparent.
You can ignore the preferences except to register your copy.

2. Works exactly like OS 9:
Labels are right there in the contextual menu.
There is also an optional column in the Finder list view, so you can sort by label as usual.
All your old OS 9 labels are preserved and presented automatically under OS X.

3. Shortcomings in OS X:
- No "Labels" menu under the "File" menu
- Still no search by Label
- Labels don't work in the Dock.
post #21 of 63
mrmister: No, actually, it doesn't.

If you're rewriting the system from scratch, why rewrite, from scratch, something that you know is going to go away soon anyway, and that you need to wean your customers off of in any case?

Labels are dead, zombification attempts by Unsanity notwithstanding.

Now, I agree that crackers are better than nothing if you're starving, and labels *do* have their (limited) usefulness. But to expect Apple to continually and endlessly support a dead feature, when they haven't *prevented* another party from stepping in and filling the temporary need (as Unsanity has done)? Bah. Classic case of a third party opportunity, and one that was successfully fulfilled. Seems to me like everyone did their part. Apple efficiently used their resources (reserving the majority of them for a serious metadata system), Unsanity filled in a (small) UI gap, and those users that want to use it can go do it.

If you find labels critical to your workflow, then by all means go use the Haxie! I don't, and quite frankly am waiting for a real honest to god metadata system before I start tagging things in a serious way. Call me crazy, but I don't like doing the same task multiple times.

[ 10-11-2002: Message edited by: Kickaha ]</p>
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post #22 of 63
[quote]Originally posted by Brad:
<strong>Kickaha is my new god.</strong><hr></blockquote>

MUAHAHAHAHAHA! BOW DOWN BEFORE ME, PUNY HUMANS!

Oh, damn. *smacks forehead* Internal voice! Internal voice!
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post #23 of 63
Well, Kikacha, I am one of those you mention for whom labels are critical to our workflow. And Unsanity's implementaion is, as usual, excellent.

I don't feel too bad that I had to pay an extra $7, and I don't blame Apple for not including this functionality in OS X, for all of the reasons mentioned above.

But I'm still glad it's here, and am happy to be using it NOW, rather than being forced to adjust until Apple's new implementation (or whatever related metadata feature) is released.
post #24 of 63
[quote]Originally posted by Kickaha:
<strong>If you're rewriting the system from scratch, why rewrite, from scratch, something that you know is going to go away soon anyway, and that you need to wean your customers off of in any case?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, if it took Unsanity 7$ to implement it, it couldn't really have been that much of an effort from Apple's side to present it to us in the interim. It would be the weaning-bit they'd be concerned about in that case.. And how long has that interim been now, anyways?

*Tinkle* *Tinkle*
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post #25 of 63
Thread Starter 
Booyah, Thrash! My point exactly.

I also take issue with this kind of Apple design mentallity--this is not Cupertino's system, it is the *users* system. Saying, "well, metadata will be here in...ah...maybe 10.3" means that folks wait AT LEAST THREE YEARS FROM WHEN WE LOST LABELS.

Waiting is bearable--waiting without even the tools that we used to have is pathetic.

I think Kick's explanation is an accurate one for how Apple sees the situation, and i think it smacks of arrogance.
post #26 of 63
I've said is before and I'll say it again.

Apple should not and can not be expected to deliver *everything* that users want. That's why third party software vendors exist -- to fill in the gaps and provide solutions for things that Apple doesn't.
post #27 of 63
Let's return to the haxie itself. How is it behaving on your system ?

I tried it yesterday, and I've found some minor issues with it :

1- In the list view (which I'm using a lot), changing an icon label doesn't always update instantaneously. I have to close the window and reopen it to see the change. This is dull !

2- I don't see the labels in the Open/Save dialog boxes. Dull !

3- When I select many files (about 20 or more) in a window and ctrl-click to change all their labels, it may be slow. I got many times the damn spinning rainbow yummy for few seconds before I can select the label in the contextual menu. Ultra-dull !

Ok, this is version 1.0 of this new haxie, so maybe it will be better in the next versions.

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post #28 of 63
[quote]Originally posted by Whyatt Thrash:
<strong>

Well, if it took Unsanity 7$ to implement it, it couldn't really have been that much of an effort from Apple's side to present it to us in the interim. </strong><hr></blockquote>

You're missing the point. It's not about the cost of implementation up front (and come on... it so did *not* cost Unsanity $7 to implement - that's like saying it only cost $129 for Apple to create Jaguar), it's about the cost of long term maintenance, not only of the code base to interact with that single byte in the HFS+ header (and remember, OS X is moving towards *file system independence*... say you really want to use ReiserFS (theoretically, you can) for journaling... you'd lose all your labels. With Apple's rethinking of the metadata, you are much more likely *not* to... isn't that better?), but also long-term maintenance of everyone's workflows. Seriously, if Apple added this back in, *just like it was*, then they'd be expected to keep it in, ad nauseum.

OS X should be a dumping of as much cruft as possible, and labels are part of that cruft. Unsanity has stepped up to the bat for those few folks who just can't live without them, but I'm glad to see them gone as they were implemented. Don't think of the loss, think of what will be filling the space.

[quote]<strong>It would be the weaning-bit they'd be concerned about in that case.. And how long has that interim been now, anyways?

*Tinkle* *Tinkle*</strong><hr></blockquote>

What, you have to pee?
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post #29 of 63
[quote]Originally posted by mrmister:
<strong>Booyah, Thrash! My point exactly.

I also take issue with this kind of Apple design mentallity--this is not Cupertino's system, it is the *users* system. </strong><hr></blockquote>

...

Well, you're welcome to your opinion.

[quote]<strong>Saying, "well, metadata will be here in...ah...maybe 10.3" means that folks wait AT LEAST THREE YEARS FROM WHEN WE LOST LABELS.

Waiting is bearable--waiting without even the tools that we used to have is pathetic.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Unsanity provided the tool. Go use it. Simple.

Problem?

Seriously, it's not like Apple outright blocked 3rd parties from implementing it... the data is all still there, the UI is (unofficially) extensible to interact with it... I still fail to see the problem. If Apple *had* completely blocked anyone from adding this, then I'd say you had a reason to be ticked, but they didn't.

[quote]<strong>I think Kick's explanation is an accurate one for how Apple sees the situation, and i think it smacks of arrogance.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Again, you're welcome to your opinion.

I, for one, believe that the folks at Apple know more about UI and metadata than any legion of armchair 'professionals' among the userbase that you care to gather.

Anytime you add *any* feature to a system, there will be at least one person out there that finds that they Just Can't Live Without It(tm)* *Any* feature. In this case, OS9 -&gt; OS X is a large enough jump that it is the *best* opportunity Apple has ever had, and the best one they're *likely* to have, to dump cruft. Labels, as they were implemented, were cruft. Buh-bye. Yes, I agree that it would have been wonderful to have the full metadata system in place by 10.0... but it wasn't. Apple hasn't the resources. OSs evolve. And in any evolution, there are throwbacks and dead ends to the tree. Labels were a dead end.

* with Back of Hand to Forehead Goth Action!

[ 10-11-2002: Message edited by: Kickaha ]</p>
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post #30 of 63
Personnaly, I interpret this thread as about the labels haxie (see the first message here). Not about metadata or other wanabie features. Apple's labels are vaporware. Please, let discuss about the labels haxies.

Do you have it ? Are you using it ? Do you noticed some weird things with it ?

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post #31 of 63
Thread Starter 
With all that said, I don't use labels much except for the old-school trick of making an invisible label to track changes wrought by new installs. Love that trick.

Good arguements, Kick.

As for Labels X, I installed it and found similar issues. A little slow with multiple items, and the labels need to show up in open/save dialogues. Not really ready for me to use, as I'm not wedded to it in the first place.

My friends who have stayed glued to OS9 because of lack of labels killing workflow...they are another story.
post #32 of 63
[quote]Originally posted by Kickaha:
<strong>
it so did *not* cost Unsanity $7 to implement - (that's like saying it only cost $129 for Apple to create Jaguar)</strong><hr></blockquote>

No, but if you think about what I said, you'd wager that if unsanity is a company remotely interested in making a profit off their products, then the cost of implementing the hack would have been less than (7$ * the amount of users desperately in need of the product). Obviously this is what I meant, if you care to think about it...

[quote]Originally posted by Kickaha:
<strong>
Seriously, if Apple added this back in, *just like it was*, then they'd be expected to keep it in, ad nauseum</strong><hr></blockquote>

Like I said earlier, this is the only real argument you've got...

[quote]Originally posted by Kickaha:
<strong>
Don't think of the loss, think of what will be filling the space.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Like, when? Within our lifetime? Within OS X's lifetime? I'm NOT arguing that Apple should now suddenly implement the feature. After all, there is a third party hack that implements it in their place, but... They should have in the first place.

Imagine a farmer working in the same fashion... "I'm working on some new cattle and carrots, so I'll give you much better veggies and meat in a few years but you'll just have to make do with what you've got in the mean time..."

Sure, it's an extreme example but I'm sure you get my point...

[quote]Originally posted by Kickaha:
<strong>
I, for one, believe that the folks at Apple know more about UI and metadata than any legion of armchair 'professionals' among the userbase that you care to gather.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

This is an example of the arrogance earlier noted..

Well, these "UI professionals" aren't the ones stuck USING the system, are they?

[quote]Originally posted by Kickaha:
<strong>
What, you have to pee?</strong><hr></blockquote>

You have no idea..

*suddenly realizes this is an extremely silly issue to get riled up over, but it's Kickaha's attitude that vexes me... I've been f u c k e d enough by software companies that think they know what's best for me...*

[ 10-11-2002: Message edited by: Whyatt Thrash ]</p>
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post #33 of 63
Well, I never realized used labels much, but for those who do but would like something more customizable than labels, here's a little tip I've been using for a while now.

Just go to View Options for any window and select show Comment field. Now, for any file you have just do a get info, put in any comment you want. Go ahead and move the comment field all the way over next to the Applications column if you want - just drag it.

You may not have a quick color cue to see what's different, but you'll be able to get a hell of a lot more info at a quick glance than - "uh, dark green, that means sent as PDF right? And light green means needs finished?"

On top of that, the view options only holds for that window so I don't have to view the Comments column in every open window.

Mix in a little Applescripting to do the typing/sorting for me and voila!

Just thought I'd share the tip since I hadn't seen it brought up yet.
post #34 of 63
[quote]Originally posted by torifile:
<strong>Honestly, what's all the fuss about labels? Why can't you just stick a custom icon on 'important' things? xicons.com has hundreds of neat looking ones. If it's just a visual cue, why not spruce it up a bit?</strong><hr></blockquote>

It isn't just a visual cue. It's pretty helpful when organizing/ordering project files.
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post #35 of 63
[quote]No, but if you think about what I said, you'd wager that if unsanity is a company remotely interested in making a profit off their products, then the cost of implementing the hack would have been less than (7$ * the amount of users desperately in need of the product). Obviously this is what I meant, if you care to think about it...<hr></blockquote>

Say what you mean, please. Expecting a reader to make up for a lack of writing skill is just lazy. If that is what you meant originally, then you should have said so. (Yes, I knew what you most likely meant. Pardon my taking your words as your actual meaning. Silly me. I'll be sure to inject plenty of conjecture and assumptions. That's to be sure to clear everything right up.)

[quote]Seriously, if Apple added this back in, *just like it was*, then they'd be expected to keep it in, ad nauseum


Like I said earlier, this is the only real argument you've got...<hr></blockquote>

And you have a refutation?

Seriously, from the point of view of pretty much anyone inside or outside of Apple who is concerned with keeping MacOS X as a *long term* viable system, this alone *should* be compelling.

[quote]Don't think of the loss, think of what will be filling the space.

Like, when? Within our lifetime? Within OS X's lifetime? I'm NOT arguing that Apple should now suddenly implement the feature. After all, there is a third party hack that implements it in their place, but... They should have in the first place.<hr></blockquote>

Why? Honestly, why?

1) It's a feature that is being replaced.

2) It's a feature that people need to migrate away from.

3) It's a feature that, if implemented by Apple, would be expected to be maintained indefinitely... which is just a waste all the way around.

4) It's a feature that is perfectly implementable by a third party, since all the pieces were already there.

Personally, I'm surprised it took someone this long to implement. :/

[quote]Imagine a farmer working in the same fashion... "I'm working on some new cattle and carrots, so I'll give you much better veggies and meat in a few years but you'll just have to make do with what you've got in the mean time..."

Sure, it's an extreme example but I'm sure you get my point...<hr></blockquote>

Yes, I do, as I think we *all* do. The horse is dead and beaten. There's a lack in the UI for what some people need.

You know, there's a lack in the UI for a *lot* of things I need, but my needs aren't exactly general purpose in some areas, and I have this strangely rational viewpoint that Apple shouldn't be the sole source of all UI elements. If they cover 90% of the needs of 90% of the userbase in a useful, clean, elegant manner, they're doing extremely well. If they also allow third parties to step in and provide the bits and pieces they miss, then they're doing *VERY* well. Which is what they've done.

[quote]I, for one, believe that the folks at Apple know more about UI and metadata than any legion of armchair 'professionals' among the userbase that you care to gather.


This is an example of the arrogance earlier noted..<hr></blockquote>

Then do better. Really. If it's all that simple, just do it. Everyone has the Best Idea EVER... until it's implemented, and you realize that there are myriads of little problems that don't crop up until you have to use it in a real system.

Sorry, but would you say that a medical doctor was 'arrogant' for saying that they might know something about medicine that you don't?

Going by the democratic vote by user population, menu bars should be at the top of every window. Going by the realities of physiological and psychological constraints, Fitt's Law overrides, and the menu bar should be on an edge of the screen.

This isn't arrogance, it's recognizing that folks who have more experience at something might know a bit more than I. It's not arrogance - quite the opposite.

[quote]Well, these "UI professionals" aren't the ones stuck USING the system, are they?<hr></blockquote>

Oh, you're absolutely right. Not a single person inside Apple is using MacOS X. Nope, not a single one. (Come on, you can do better than that.)

[quote]What, you have to pee?


You have no idea..<hr></blockquote>

Then what are you doing here, man?

[quote]*suddenly realizes this is an extremely silly issue to get riled up over, but it's Kickaha's attitude that vexes me... I've been f u c k e d enough by software companies that think they know what's best for me...*<hr></blockquote>

Then you have three choices:

1) Don't use their products.

2) Use their competitor's products.

3) Provide feedback to the company, and realize that they *do* use the system, they have *much* more information than you do about the plans for the system, and that they, unlike the general public, have actually implemented a working system.

Use the Haxie. Take a deep breath. Relax. Realize that your problem is solved for now, and all is good with the world because a much better approach is in the pipeline.

And on that note, the horse is truly, really, 100%, thoroughly, honestly and actually dead, beaten, and pummeled. Gah.

[ 10-12-2002: Message edited by: Kickaha ]</p>
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post #36 of 63
Thread Starter 
Kick's arguements are well-formed, but in truth its a little specious you have to admit: there is a pattern of OS9 GUI innovations that have been left out of OSX, and while some of them had replacements since day one, even if all the people didn't like them (e.g. the Dock) they were there.

We all know, from following the evolution of OSX, that there was considerable doubt that they were even working on any kind of metadata system for the future for quite some time. As of 10.0, they were into file extensions in the name of interoperability, and stripped out what little metadata we had with the labels.

Apple like's being mysterious, and Apple likes to innovate and keep its cards close to its chest--fine. But it's a bit much to swallow that they remove easy to implement features with no guidance on when/if they will return?

I do think they dropped the ball on this one--implementing labels is something that could have been done early, as a legacy concession, and then folded into future systems.

Better yet, Apple could have not been wishy-washy on metadata and realized type/creator was a core asset of MacOS.

That is the past, however. I do hope (oh, do i hope) that they are indeed actually dedicated to good, coherent metadata for OSX in our lifetime.
post #37 of 63
[quote]Originally posted by Kickaha:
<strong>
Say what you mean, please.</strong>
<hr></blockquote>

It was just a jokingly way of saying the same thing. If you look at it, my first post was just a pun at apple's cost. Jokes are generally not that funny if you start explaining the punchline and why it's funny instead of just pulling it... Some ppl will get it, some will not. *shrugs*

[quote]Originally posted by Kickaha:
<strong>
Why? Honestly, why?
</strong>
<hr></blockquote>

Because it IS a feature that took someone very long to implement, and obviously a LOT of users really missed. That's MY only point. We've been stuck for very long without an even rudimentary equivalent.

[quote]Originally posted by Kickaha:
<strong>
Then you have three choices:
</strong><hr></blockquote>

No, I have lots more choices than that. And one of them includes:

a) Continuing to use their products.

b) Contuing to be an untolerable bitch about it

c) Stop making bad jokes about it, as of right now... <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />

[quote]Originally posted by Kickaha:
<strong>

Take a deep breath.</strong><hr></blockquote>

*woooooooooh*pffffff*

No, that didn't work. Wait, lemme try that again (removes slime-ridden hair).

AAAH! That's so much better... Suddenly my brain starts functioning again. Thank you, Kickaha! You've successfully implemented the feature of life into my previously lifeless body. Thank God for third party hacks.

I think I'm gonna go take that leak now... *Walks over dead horse at the way to the bathroom*

Anyone for hamburgers?

[ 10-12-2002: Message edited by: Whyatt Thrash ]</p>
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post #38 of 63
[quote]Originally posted by Kickaha:
<strong>Don't think of the loss, think of what will be filling the space.

Like, when? Within our lifetime? Within OS X's lifetime? I'm NOT arguing that Apple should now suddenly implement the feature. After all, there is a third party hack that implements it in their place, but... They should have in the first place.

Why? Honestly, why?

1) It's a feature that is being replaced.</strong><hr></blockquote>

By something that should allow for labels. How hard could it be to simply migrate the labels to the new system?

[quote]2) It's a feature that people need to migrate away from.<hr></blockquote>

Why should people migrate away from something that they used in the past and will again be available in the new system? Isn't that incredibly stupid?

[quote]3) It's a feature that, if implemented by Apple, would be expected to be maintained indefinitely... which is just a waste all the way around.<hr></blockquote>

No, only until the new system is around which should allow for labels in a nice new way (I don't know what nice new way, since I've never heard Apple's plans with metadata).

[quote]4) It's a feature that is perfectly implementable by a third party, since all the pieces were already there.

Personally, I'm surprised it took someone this long to implement. :/<hr></blockquote>

Wrong, the haxie may break at any time, cause problems and is quite limited judging from the comments in another post above. Apple could add support much more easily. Of course, Apple isn't in the habit of making simple changes to their OS that make a lot of people happy (windowshade, replaceable dock, splittable dock), so I don't see them adding anything like lables which is a tad harder. I can remember the days when they added popular hacks to the OS (instead of removing popular stuff), sigh.

[ 10-12-2002: Message edited by: wfzelle ]</p>
post #39 of 63
Wow, I just re-read my post - what horrible grammar.

Too many beer labels I guess.
post #40 of 63
[quote]<strong>By something that should allow for labels. How hard could it be to simply migrate the labels to the new system?

Why should people migrate away from something that they used in the past and will again be available in the new system? Isn't that incredibly stupid?</strong><hr></blockquote>

You're missing the problem. From a pure user standpoint, it might look strange that labels vanish and then labels come back, but this view obscures or ignores all the issues that Apple is facing: OS X, as an all-new OS, is Apple's one chance to get rid of legacy stuff. They're stuck with anything they bring over. The MacOS metadata system was great and visionary in its time, but it introduces a fundamental and confusing incompatibility with other platforms - including the Web - at a time when Macs survive by being compatible. So it went away at the only real opportunity Apple had to get rid of it. Unfortunately, there wasn't a replacement ready. Apple had more urgent concerns with OS X. So we're in between.

It's not optimal, but had Apple waited they would have saddled their new OS with the legacy implementation, or come up with some stop-gap implementation that they'd probably have to break right around the time that people had gotten dependent on it. Apple has to take the time to design any new metadata system just right, because they'll have to live with it for the next 15 years.


[quote]<strong>No, only until the new system is around which should allow for labels in a nice new way (I don't know what nice new way, since I've never heard Apple's plans with metadata).</strong><hr></blockquote>

No, indefinitely, because the nice new way would have to be incompatible with the old way, which all the applications would be written for. Apple has one golden opportunity to break applications in such a fundamental way - the transition to OS X.

[quote]<strong>Wrong, the haxie may break at any time, cause problems and is quite limited judging from the comments in another post above. Apple could add support much more easily.</strong><hr></blockquote>

But they are either not interested (an outside possibility) or working to solve the bigger problem of designing a robust, intelligent, extensible file system, which is not something that anyone can do easily. And again, they get to live with their design for the next 15 years. Wouldn't you approach anything carefully, knowing that?

[ 10-12-2002: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>
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