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Apple releases public beta of Safari 4 browser - Page 2

post #41 of 278
2/24/09 at 7:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

People are whining about a button here or there being relocated, a tab bar redesign, yet as a developer I'm stoked at the fact the guts are a massive leap forward.

Well...that's true...but only for those that haven't been using the latest Webkits. From my point of view, only the UI has changed - in some ways for the better, in others for the worse.
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post #42 of 278
2/24/09 at 7:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

Clearly, they should have consulted you for it's painfully apparent that change is something you have a hard time swallowing.

I know I'm fairly negative to change (and whiny), but I cannot honestly see what this improves (other than saving 20 pixels of screen real estate), and it breaks with the behaviour of a lot of other applications.

Another nit-pick is the removal of the loading bar. Why?

Seriously, I'm thrilled over CSS3 and this is the first step bringing it closer to public use, but it worked just as well in the Safari 4 Developer Preview, without useless interface changes. I can't even revert to the DP, since Apple seems to have removed it from ADC.
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post #43 of 278
2/24/09 at 7:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdkennedy1 View Post

I'm worried that Cover Flow is the beginning of unnecessary feature bloat. Did people really ask for that?

It's one of the few UI list views that can scale to to arbitrary sizes both in terms of preview area and in terms of number or items. The same could not be said about tabs or other UI attrocities.
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post #44 of 278
2/24/09 at 7:29am
Installed on both Windows XP and OS X 10.5.6.

I'm also not liking the tabs in the title bar. Kudos to Apple for trying it; now please put it back, or let us have a pref to switch to the old style.

I've already crashed the Windows version a couple times. Try accessing the Prefrences while a page is loading. For me the pref window never opens. Oops.

I also can't access my corporate intranet site - on Windows. On Mac I get the usual security certificate warning, but on Windows it just spins and spins.

- Jasen.
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post #45 of 278
2/24/09 at 7:30am
Seems pretty snappy and nice. However it does break GrowlMail quite badly: Every time I get a new email now Mail crashes. Removing GrowlMail fixes it right up.
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post #46 of 278
2/24/09 at 7:31am
Oh the Title bar!!!!! What are they smoking~~~~

The omnipresence of CoverFlow is a welcomed move though. Top Sites looks great too.

But the Windows version looks really fugly, almost painful(I never though I would use the F-word to describe an apple product...)

Safari don't need to blend in for crying out loud! iTunes UI don't consolidate with Windows (hopefully still won't) and it looks rather nice.
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post #47 of 278
2/24/09 at 7:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Porchland View Post

I'll switch as soon as Apple makes the bookmark-syncing feature of Mobile Me free. Foxmarks for Firefox does it for free and works like a dream.

In case you aren't aware, Foxmarks is available for Safari now.
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post #48 of 278
2/24/09 at 7:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllenKids View Post

Oh the Title bar!!!!! What are they smoking~~~~

The omnipressence of CoverFlow is a welcomed move though. TopSite looks great too.

But the Windows version looks really fugly, almost painful(I never though I would use the F-word to describe an apple product...)

Safari don't need to blend in for crying out loud! iTunes UI don't consolidate with Windows (hopefully still won't) and it looks rather nice.

Agree about the Windows version. The font rendering I think is an improvement but the overall look is too reminiscent of IE (that's not a compliment).
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post #49 of 278
2/24/09 at 7:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kim kap sol View Post

Wow...Apple has really gone out of its way to fuck up all HI guidelines with Safari 4.

In you want to move a Safari window and you like tabs, good luck clicking part of the titlebar that isn't a "rip a tab out" grab-handle widget or a close widget.

Although the concept is interesting, in practice, this tab UI is horrendous. ....

It's always amazing to me how someone can use something for like, ... a minute, an decide that it's crap.

The new tabs certainly are strange, but I don't see any of the behaviour you see during my minute or two of use. The windows move fine for me, tabs can be dragged around fine, etc.

I think the more important thing to notice about the tabs is how apple just did an end run around Chrome's UI.
In Windows, a window can be a document, it can be an application, or it can be a window that contains other documents or applications. Theres just no consistency. Its just a big grab bag of monkey...
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In Windows, a window can be a document, it can be an application, or it can be a window that contains other documents or applications. Theres just no consistency. Its just a big grab bag of monkey...
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post #50 of 278
2/24/09 at 7:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron View Post

Hey! Stop surfing porn!

Geez, yOUR mind's in the gutter.

I tried it and I like it so far. Closing the tabs, not so bad = Command/W and I kinda like where they're placed now.

My only complaint is how slow the "Top Sites" page takes to load, running now for 20 minutes and 4 pages still haven't loaded. Will take time getting used to, but all in all I like it.
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"Why join the navy if you can be a pirate?"
-Steve Jobs
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"Why join the navy if you can be a pirate?"
-Steve Jobs
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post #51 of 278
2/24/09 at 7:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SS3 GokouX View Post

Crashes on launch if you have Glims installed. Also breaks reflections in Bowtie (but they should be able to use Webkit reflections instead of javascript). Kinda digging it overall.

For the record, Safari AdBlock still works perfectly and since that's the only plug-in I use I'm a happy camper.
In Windows, a window can be a document, it can be an application, or it can be a window that contains other documents or applications. Theres just no consistency. Its just a big grab bag of monkey...
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In Windows, a window can be a document, it can be an application, or it can be a window that contains other documents or applications. Theres just no consistency. Its just a big grab bag of monkey...
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post #52 of 278
2/24/09 at 7:39am
All working fine for me so far...

much better than safari 3
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post #53 of 278
2/24/09 at 7:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sven Siegmund View Post

I really don't know who claims that. Very ignorant. Opera 10 passed Acid3 in December when it was in alpha version, the beta passes aswell, 3 months ago.

Not true. Opera passed the Acid 3 test about half a day *after* Safari. I know it's picky, but it happens to be true.
In Windows, a window can be a document, it can be an application, or it can be a window that contains other documents or applications. Theres just no consistency. Its just a big grab bag of monkey...
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In Windows, a window can be a document, it can be an application, or it can be a window that contains other documents or applications. Theres just no consistency. Its just a big grab bag of monkey...
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post #54 of 278
2/24/09 at 7:45am
Hey guys, is it me or do u guys feel that safari's active window colour shade is a bit less grey than the overall system? Cos now its hard to distinguish which window is the open one..
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post #55 of 278
2/24/09 at 7:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

It's always amazing to me how someone can use something for like, ... a minute, an decide that it's crap.

The new tabs certainly are strange, but I don't see any of the behaviour you see during my minute or two of use. The windows move fine for me, tabs can be dragged around fine, etc.

I think the more important thing to notice about the tabs is how apple just did an end run around Chrome's UI.

Well, you know what they say about first impressions.

If things don't feel right in the first minute, chances are they're never going to feel right.

I doubt the "windows move fine" for you...if you're sending the cursor up to the title bar to grab it and move the window and you hit a grab-handle, you'll be pulling a tab out instead of moving the window. Sure, it's still possible to move the window but it now becomes more difficult as the number of tabs grow since it's now a game of precision.
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post #56 of 278
2/24/09 at 7:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

Changing that does not seem to effect Safari's toolbar search box, that is what I was referring to.

Yeah I hate this also. A couple of versions ago they made it impossible to remove the Google search box from the title bar. Kinda shameful since there is no good reason for this other than some tie-in agreement with Google.

Now I've heard about the wacky way in which you refuse to use tabs though, I'm kinda wondering if I'm just being an old fogey about it. It doesn't seem to bother anyone else at all which is usually an indication of "old-hattery."
In Windows, a window can be a document, it can be an application, or it can be a window that contains other documents or applications. Theres just no consistency. Its just a big grab bag of monkey...
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In Windows, a window can be a document, it can be an application, or it can be a window that contains other documents or applications. Theres just no consistency. Its just a big grab bag of monkey...
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post #57 of 278
2/24/09 at 7:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by saarek View Post

I've stuck to Firefox so far, perhaps Safari 4 will sway me, we'll have to see.

Not if you want to use Gmail. I tried it and it didn't work. The only way I can access Gmail in Safari4 is through the crippled version on iGoogle.
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post #58 of 278
2/24/09 at 7:51am
Gaaa.... They still don't have their own LAN settings page. I can't use it otherwise. Please Apple I would LOVE to use your browser at work but I can't because the proxy is setup for IE only and the only other way around it is to specify your proxies. Stop sending me to the freakin' windows property page - you want it to get adopted quicker? 1) cut down on the install so people without admin rights can install it and 2) make your own proxy connection page rather than using window's sh!tty one. Sadness

EDIT: Sweet - looks like they have unlocked some of the proxy settings so I can actually get it to work.
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post #59 of 278
2/24/09 at 7:53am
Tabs on top is a Chrome feature that I hated, and Safari adopted it.
Menu buttons on the right of address bar is from IE.

I don't understand what Apple is trying to do. There are good improvements and tricks in this beta, but the layout is copied from other browsers, and I didn't like them at all.

Thank God there is Firefox around. I can't give it up. No browser is even close to Firefox. I love it, the look (which is extensible every way possible), the extensions, everything on it, I like it. Both on Mac and PC.
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post #60 of 278
2/24/09 at 7:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by R. Kevin Hill View Post

Not if you want to use Gmail. I tried it and it didn't work. The only way I can access Gmail in Safari4 is through the crippled version on iGoogle.

Gmail works fine for me in Safari 4.
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post #61 of 278
2/24/09 at 7:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chaurjyh View Post

Hey guys, is it me or do u guys feel that safari's active window colour shade is a bit less grey than the overall system? Cos now its hard to distinguish which window is the open one..

Indeed. That's what happens when developers start using custom window widgets.
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post #62 of 278
2/24/09 at 7:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kim kap sol View Post

... I doubt the "windows move fine" for you...if you're sending the cursor up to the title bar to grab it and move the window and you hit a grab-handle, you'll be pulling a tab out instead of moving the window. ...

Ah, wasn't sure what you were talking about at first really. I can see if you had bazillions of tabs open then that might be an issue.

Edit: It seems that the tab you are viewing always maintains a large size even as the others shrink in tune with how many tabs are added, so the target for moving the window is always large anyway. Seems like a win-win to me.

On the other hand, there are at least three posts already about how bad it is to have to pick a tiny target for moving the tab instead of just hitting the whole tab as before, so there are two mutually exclusive needs there, now that there is only one bar for both functions. Well have to see who yells the loudest I guess.

My take on it so far after now ten minutes or so is that functionally I love it already and won't be un-installing. My biggest negative so far is that it has a serious case of the "uglies," which is the main reason I don't use FireFox.

Aesthetics is really important to me in something I use on a daily basis for many hours at a time and the super high contrast, super-busy, overly sculpted, fussy glob of stuff at the top of the screen is kind of bugging me. With everything mushed together so close in the top 1.5 centimetres of the display, which is also right next to the OS menu bar, it all just starts to look garish. Three fonts in three different styles? Maybe I'll get used to it though. Not sure at the moment.
In Windows, a window can be a document, it can be an application, or it can be a window that contains other documents or applications. Theres just no consistency. Its just a big grab bag of monkey...
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In Windows, a window can be a document, it can be an application, or it can be a window that contains other documents or applications. Theres just no consistency. Its just a big grab bag of monkey...
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post #63 of 278
2/24/09 at 8:02am
It looks like Apple took some interface cues from Chrome, but they didn't pull off the tabs on top interface right. Chrome's tabs can be dragged by clicking on them anywhere, but they leave a decent amount of room above them to drag the whole window if desired. That is a much better approach than having to hunt for a tiny drag area on each tab. Otherwise, it's a major improvement over Safari 3 and even on Chrome in some areas. The Top Sites previews are live (instead of saved bitmaps), and they are larger. The search bar can also be toggled between Google and Yahoo, although I'm not sure if more search providers can be added to the list. Lastly, the native Windows UI is much appreciated. OS X's UI is nice, but it sticks out like a sore thumb on other systems. I hope iTunes follows suit.
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post #64 of 278
2/24/09 at 8:05am
How do we reload/refresh a page? Or even stop a page from loading without closing it completely?
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"Why join the navy if you can be a pirate?"
-Steve Jobs
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post #65 of 278
2/24/09 at 8:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chaurjyh View Post

Hey guys, is it me or do u guys feel that safari's active window colour shade is a bit less grey than the overall system? Cos now its hard to distinguish which window is the open one..

No, it looks the same to me. The titlebar is just bigger so it's probably an optical illusion. The windows version of safari is not using any custom widgets this time. It respects whatever Windows theme you happen to be using.

EDIT: Yep, definitely the same. I did a screen grab and compared the colors in a graphics program.
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post #66 of 278
2/24/09 at 8:11am
FINALLY! Good tab management.

The coverflow usage seems impressive.

I'm going to hop on the beta.
Tory Hagen
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post #67 of 278
2/24/09 at 8:12am
If I install Safari 4 does it replace Safari 3 or does it leave it in place?
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post #68 of 278
2/24/09 at 8:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdkennedy1 View Post

I'm worried that Cover Flow is the beginning of unnecessary feature bloat. Did people really ask for that?

It is a bloat on Windows. On Leopard and better, the operating system has the functionality built-in so it is just a question of using it in the application.
Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
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Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
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post #69 of 278
2/24/09 at 8:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdkennedy1 View Post

I'm worried that Cover Flow is the beginning of unnecessary feature bloat. Did people really ask for that?

Yeah, they sort of did. Apple wants to make Cover Flow an easy and fast way to find your information. Once you think about it would you really want to try to remember your bookmarks by just looking at text or would you rather have a visual aid (Cover Flow) help you find it. It could just be me. But, I remember things better if I have a picture rather than simple text...

Quote:
Originally Posted by talksense101 View Post

It is a bloat on Windows. On Leopard and better, the operating system has the functionality built-in so it is just a question of using it in the application.

Haha.. I could not agree more. Cover Flow in Windows will stick out. Just go ahead windows and put the usual foldars upon folders that I would have to go through to find just one thing. And you Windows fan boys, don't you tell me its not like that. I use to have a windows machine and it really was a pain to find one particular thing.
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post #70 of 278
2/24/09 at 8:18am
One thing I just noticed and liked is that I can navigate with mouse now after I click the middle button once. This was big for me.
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post #71 of 278
2/24/09 at 8:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony1 View Post

How do we reload/refresh a page? Or even stop a page from loading without closing it completely?

It only appears to be at the end of address bar. Apparently they removed the buttons for those functions. It was hard to find though.
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post #72 of 278
2/24/09 at 8:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kim kap sol View Post

I doubt the "windows move fine" for you...if you're sending the cursor up to the title bar to grab it and move the window and you hit a grab-handle, you'll be pulling a tab out instead of moving the window. Sure, it's still possible to move the window but it now becomes more difficult as the number of tabs grow since it's now a game of precision.

Uh, I seriously doubt you're having any of the problems you claim to be having. It's clearly obvious that you just like to complain. I have a window with 12 tabs open... and I can grab a title bar and move the window around without ANY problems. I can grab the "move" widget, just fine as well. You shouldn't be so damned rude and ignorant to think that your experience is the same EVERYONE else is having.

Having said all of that... I do prefer the old method for tabs as well, but for aesthetic reasons, not because it is more or less functional and intuitive. Took me all of 30 seconds to get used to the new method.
Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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post #73 of 278
2/24/09 at 8:24am
Quote:
If I install Safari 4 does it replace Safari 3 or does it leave it in place?

It replaces it. It does come with an uninstaller, and you can still download and install Safari 3. So theoretically you can revert if you don't like the beta, though I haven't tried that myself.
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post #74 of 278
2/24/09 at 8:27am
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I love this new version... except for the tabs on top. That's just... gah. It's a poor implementation of a bad idea.

You don't go redefining basic behavior for fundamental UI widgets such as the title bar on a per-app basis, dammit!
My brain is hung like a HORSE!
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post #75 of 278
2/24/09 at 8:30am
Screw the UI changes.

What I'd like to know is whether Apple has taken care of the horrendous memory leaks (Mac version) that gradually degrade Safari's performance with extended use, and that require a relaunch and sometimes a reboot to fix.
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post #76 of 278
2/24/09 at 8:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdkennedy1 View Post

I'm worried that Cover Flow is the beginning of unnecessary feature bloat. Did people really ask for that?

I don't use Cover Flow in any of the other applications where it appears, but I think it could be really useful in Safari. Just the other day I was trying to find a previous website in my history list and it was nearly impossible, because web page document titles are usually so obtuse. If I'd have been able to see images of the pages I would have been able to find what I was looking for much more quickly.

As for the "tabs on top" feature, I agree that it seems to be a human interface violation. Every window in every application has a title bar and it always works the same way. Now we have a title bar that works differently. I won't judge it until I try it, but I don't think there was a problem with the old tabs. I've taught beginner computer classes and I only met two kinds of computer users: those who use tabs and love them, and those who don't use tabs and can't even comprehend why they would be useful. So if the goal is to expose more people to this feature, well, we'll see if it works.
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post #77 of 278
2/24/09 at 8:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jenkman91 View Post

Yeah, they sort of did. Apple wants to make Cover Flow an easy and fast way to find your information. Once you think about it would you really want to try to remember your bookmarks by just looking at text or would you rather have a visual aid (Cover Flow) help you find it. It could just be me. But, I remember things better if I have a picture rather than simple text...

I'm not going to complain about Cover flow but pictures aren't searchable, and I'm rather curious how it's going to be useful for thousands of history items.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjtomlin View Post

Uh, I seriously doubt you're having any of the problems you claim to be having. It's clearly obvious that you just like to complain. I have a window with 12 tabs open... and I can grab a title bar and move the window around without ANY problems. I can grab the "move" widget, just fine as well. You shouldn't be so damned rude and ignorant to think that your experience is the same EVERYONE else is having.

Of course we can work around the UI, but that doesn't seem like the way it should be, does it? Particularly not on an Apple OS.

Does anyone have an example how the Tabs on Top is a better UI than the old tabs?
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post #78 of 278
2/24/09 at 8:36am
Where did the "Merge all windows" option go?

As others have mentioned, I like Chrome's ability to drag and drop and merge and pull out and put back tabs a lot better.

I will also be waiting for plug-ins and the ability to disable them individually rather than all or none

I also liked the ability to close tabs that I'm not currently viewing, can't do that anymore
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post #79 of 278
2/24/09 at 8:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbwi View Post

Where did the "Merge all windows" option go?

As others have mentioned, I like Chrome's ability to drag and drop and merge and pull out and put back tabs a lot better.

I will also be waiting for plug-ins and the ability to disable them individually rather than all or none

Window menu as usual.

I'm happy again, I've found the cure for my ailments. No more complaints from me.

Code:

defaults write com.apple.Safari DebugSafari4TabBarIsOnTop -bool NO
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post #80 of 278
2/24/09 at 8:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zandros View Post

I'm not going to complain about Cover flow but pictures aren't searchable, and I'm rather curious how it's going to be useful for thousands of history items.



Of course we can work around the UI, but that doesn't seem like the way it should be, does it? Particularly not on an Apple OS.

Does anyone have an example how the Tabs on Top is a better UI than the old tabs?

I'm glad I gain about 15 pixels of webpage screen real estate on my MacBook. Other than that, I prefer the old way, but the new way doesn't really bother me either.
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