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post #81 of 145
And it still won't open tabs in the existing window. Why does safari continue to have this option if it doesn't work?
post #82 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by wobegon View Post

So is it safe to assume you open a new window for every single website in Safari?

Is it really that unusual to not use tabs? Other than OmniWeb and IE8 on Windows 7, I've always found it more difficult to manage a whole bunch of tabs than a whole bunch of windows.
post #83 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by radiospace View Post

I don't like the Tabs on Top. It's ugly, cluttered, and makes the ergonomics slightly worse... a lose, lose, lose situation.

By ergonomics I mean that now you have to "reach" further with the mouse pointer to get up to the tab bar than you do in Safari 3. If they would make the keyboard shortcuts for "next tab" and "previous tab" something reasonable the ergonomics might be forgivable. (In Safari 3 switching tabs requires not only hitting 3 keys at once --- command, shift and left- or right-bracket, but also doing so with your right hand that's presumably on the mouse, or at least looking down and repositioning your left hand to the right side of the keyboard -- talk about an inelegant solution.)


Yup... I gotta agree with you for the most part. To add to your argument: Double Clicking on the Tab Bar in S3 was easy no matter where your mouse cursor was on the screen... now you must travel up to the upper right corner to create a new tab or use shortcut keys. Also, by amalgamating Tabs with the Title Bar it seems you can no longer just double click the Title Bar to collapse the window. Also, having the Tabs in the old/lower position gives the user a more direct connection to the "active tab" and the page being displayed... something that is lost having Tabs located across the top of S4B. Finally (this applies to both S3 & S4B), for right handed users, it seems to me that the Close Tab x is located on the wrong side of the Tab. In FireFox, the Close Tab x icon is on the right side (literally and figuratively) so that you do not have to travel across the tab to close a page... being right handed (as most people are) the mouse cursor is generally located on the right side of the screen by user default. Perhaps this should be customizable in preferences to accommodate left and right handed users. While I understand the thought process behind combining features... sometimes you get a compromise as both Tabs and the Title Bar are both less functional from previous versions of the app.

But this is the first public beta, so perhaps there will be refinement. And there is lots to praise in the newest version of Safari... S4B sure is snappy! And the new Top Sites feature seems to be a useful concept Apple borrowed from the Firefox FastDial plug-in.
post #84 of 145
I've been dedicated to Firefox for a long time, but as of yesterday I've dropped it.

Perhaps I'm jumping the gun a bit or maybe by dint of my generation I'm willing to adopt something faster than the average Joe, but Safari is now my default and I see no reason to go back.

I love the use of space and "tabs on top" functionality, and hopefully the full release will allow toolbar customization options. Otherwise, as soon as all of the options in the preferences menu go live I'll be fully stoked - it's driving me crazy that the "open a link in a new tab, not a new window" functionality isn't working yet.

All in all, never seen a better browser. Awesome.
post #85 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeniorChief View Post

But the default action of opening a link in a new window is driving me crazy. My default action in FF is to open links in a new tab...

Love the zippiness of S4

Easily changed in the prefs....
post #86 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by archer75 View Post

And it still won't open tabs in the existing window. Why does safari continue to have this option if it doesn't work?

What do you mean? The option has always worked for me as stated.
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post #87 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

What do you mean? The option has always worked for me as stated.

It has never worked. I click a link and it opens a new window instead of a new tab. OSX and windows. I can middle click the link and force it in a new tab but it's not the same.
post #88 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by archer75 View Post

It has never worked. I click a link and it opens a new window instead of a new tab. OSX and windows. I can middle click the link and force it in a new tab but it's not the same.

If you are referring to one-window mode, there is a hidden preference that you need to set:

defaults write com.apple.Safari TargetedClicksCreateTabs -bool true

Although I agree it's about time that they make this available in the preferences.
post #89 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

1) The feature has indeed been in Opera for a while, so?

His point was AI incorrectly claimed

"Rather than

only bumping up the size of text and destroying the layout of the page, as web browsers have historically offered to do, Safari 4 allows... Firefox also can both magnify the whole as well as just textsize.
His other point was that who cares if this actually is a product of system level resolution independence, when simply scaling entire window contents is not that hard on either the programmer or the hardware. Works in Windows Safari 4 just fine. I mean, I've got a 300MHz PentiumII on XP that scales media player instantaneously.
post #90 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgbwnet View Post

If you are referring to one-window mode, there is a hidden preference that you need to set:

defaults write com.apple.Safari TargetedClicksCreateTabs -bool true

Although I agree it's about time that they make this available in the preferences.

Thank you.

How do I do that in windows?
post #91 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgbwnet View Post

If you are referring to one-window mode, there is a hidden preference that you need to set:

defaults write com.apple.Safari TargetedClicksCreateTabs -bool true

Although I agree it's about time that they make this available in the preferences.

On OS X. I don't think that is available for the Windows version.

That is why i was asking him. I wasn't sure what aspect he was having an issue with. The one in Safari Preferences under the General tab does state quite clearly, "This applies to links from Mail, iChat, etc." I can see how the 'etc.' may lead one to think that it's for all links, but it means links to your web browser from a 3rd-party app.
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post #92 of 145
RE: TABS ON TOP

The page looks like a file folder now. Step back a little and take a gander. The one tab is bright and below it is the whole page.

It's very intuitive. It'll definitely catch on.
post #93 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shogun View Post

It's very intuitive. It'll definitely catch on.

Considering that Apple took the idea from Google, I'd say you are correct. I'd also think that FF will include it as an option. Probably one that isn't on by default, at first. IE will have it in about 5 years.
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post #94 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Considering that Apple took the idea from Google, I'd say you are correct. I'd also think that FF will include it as an option. Probably one that isn't on by default, at first. IE will have it in about 5 years.

Consider it payback for Google Chrome stealing Private Browsing (icognito)
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post #95 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Considering that Apple took the idea from Google, I'd say you are correct. I'd also think that FF will include it as an option. Probably one that isn't on by default, at first. IE will have it in about 5 years.

Sorry, Google took the idea from Opera. And neither Chrome, nor Opera have the tabs truly on top as Safari 4 does.
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post #96 of 145
I don't recall seeing tabs on top in opera but i'll take your word for it. Chrome seems to have started this as far as I can see. Either way I don't like it. It just puts the tabs out of the way. It looks worse in Safari than it does in Chrome.
post #97 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Consider it payback for Google Chrome stealing Private Browsing (icognito)

Quote:
Originally Posted by wobegon View Post

Sorry, Google took the idea from Opera. And neither Chrome, nor Opera have the tabs truly on top as Safari 4 does.

I'm guessing that the others, sans IE, will place their tabs truly on top in the next major version.

Out of curiosity, where did certain features start. For instance, I first now of the included Google search bar from Firefox. And I first recall seeing the URL listing of history and bookmarks in Firefox 3. But those may not be the first inception. Does anyone recall where other common features first got their public debut? Like the tabs (in general), links bar, suggestive search, the multi-site splash page?
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post #98 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by kim kap sol View Post

Tabs are already unnecessary to begin with. They don't scale well beyond a certain number of tabs. They offer hardly any visuals to someone that would want to switch to a web page quickly.

Tabs are a very handy way of queueing things. Any Google search of mine is followed by cmd-clicking promising looking results to open them in new tabs in the background.
post #99 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnathan View Post

All this tabs on top complaining about mousing distance is lame.
ctrl+tab & ctrl+shift+tab switches between tabs. use it and stop whining.

Ever had 20+ tabs open? Crtl-tabbing through them is not the most efficient way.
post #100 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

Yeah, I really don't like that either. Usually, I had to access the button to *stop* a refresh, in which case (at least on my installation), it was a small "X" button to the immediate left of the address window. Now there is a small "+" button in the same place, that can't be moved and makes the bookmark. I keep hitting the + instead of the X. It's just way too visually similar.

cmd . stops the loading of pages (and acts as a cancel/esc in a lot of applications)
post #101 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by archer75 View Post

I don't recall seeing tabs on top in opera but i'll take your word for it. Chrome seems to have started this as far as I can see. Either way I don't like it. It just puts the tabs out of the way. It looks worse in Safari than it does in Chrome.

There are definitely images of Opera with the tabs above the URL, just like in Chrome, but most images still have its menu bar above it, though not all. The reason why Google is probably getting credit (besides how little known Opera is) is that Opera didn't integrate it visually like Chrome did to make it truly look like paper file folders. The colour and feel of the menu bar integrates with the free space next to the tabs. From my preliminary search, Wobegon is correct in that Safari is the first to actually integrate the window bar with tabs.

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post #102 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I'm guessing that the others, sans IE, will place their tabs truly on top in the next major version.

Out of curiosity, where did certain features start. For instance, I first now of the included Google search bar from Firefox. And I first recall seeing the URL listing of history and bookmarks in Firefox 3. But those may not be the first inception. Does anyone recall where other common features first got their public debut? Like the tabs (in general), links bar, suggestive search, the multi-site splash page?

I think Opera's speed dial was the first "Top Site" like feature.
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post #103 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by noirdesir View Post

Ever had 20+ tabs open? Crtl-tabbing through them is not the most efficient way.

That is a good point. I think some sort of Safari Spaces or instant Safari Coverflow for all opened tabs would be handy. Sometimes I have to open up a separate window so I can keep track of all my tabs. Funny how solving one problem will eventually lead to another. gottta love progress.
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post #104 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

I think Opera's speed dial was the first "Top Site" like feature.

It looks like it. Wikipedia states that it firs appeared in Opera Mini, which makes sense. It also state that Opera v1 had tabbed browsing in 1994, whist on another Wikipgeslists the earliest as NetCaptor, an IE shel,l since 1997. They both may be correct as it wasn't until Opera v2 that a public release was made.
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post #105 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

There are definitely images of Opera with the tabs above the URL, just like in Chrome, but most images still have its menu bar above it, though not all. The reason why Google is probably getting credit (besides how little known Opera is) is that Opera didn't integrate it visually like Chrome did to make it truly look like paper file folders. The colour and feel of the menu bar integrates with the free space next to the tabs. From my preliminary search, Wobegon is correct in that Safari is the first to actually integrate the window bar with tabs.


When Chrome is maximized, they do go all the way to the top, and it breaks the way Windows 7 (Vista too?) is supposed to allow you to grab the title bar of a maximized window and drag it off to return it to windowed mode.
post #106 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by rasnet View Post

When Chrome is maximized, they do go all the way to the top, and it breaks the way Windows 7 (Vista too?) is supposed to allow you to grab the title bar of a maximized window and drag it off to return it to windowed mode.

They go all the way to the top, but the window is still distinct from the tabs. If you only have a few tabs open (i.e. empty windows space available) does dragging on the window part still not work?
post #107 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

There are definitely images of Opera with the tabs above the URL, just like in Chrome, but most images still have its menu bar above it, though not all. The reason why Google is probably getting credit (besides how little known Opera is) is that Opera didn't integrate it visually like Chrome did to make it truly look like paper file folders. The colour and feel of the menu bar integrates with the free space next to the tabs. From my preliminary search, Wobegon is correct in that Safari is the first to actually integrate the window bar with tabs.


In addition, Safari 4 manages to fit near identical functionality into less space than Chrome, at least on Windows XP. It'll be interesting to see how Chrome for Mac compares as it seems Windows XP's top window borders are needlessly large.
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post #108 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


Out of curiosity, where did certain features start.

Gosh I feel as though I've just stepped into a time machine! I remember reading years ago in MacFormat magazine about tabs, so out came the old box to see if I could track it down. Man searching was slow back then (manually searching through a huge pile of mags ) and eventually found the 'Browser Wars' article I was looking for, which was in the April 2003 issue. I can't answer the tabs query precisely, but by then they were available in Gecko browsers, which at that time were Chimera Navigator; iCab 2.9; Mozilla 1.3b; Netscape 7.02 and the non-Gecko ( I think) Opera 6.0. An interesting comment in the Opera section: "In fact once you get used to tabbed browsing you may find it difficult to switch back. It's bound to be one of the first upgrades Apple makes to Safari."

So didn't find the answer, but did narrow it down a bit!
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post #109 of 145
I don't have a problem with "mouse distance" but I do think it's silly not to have tabs right below the bookmarks bar - I always felt it was most intuitive to have "sites i'm visiting right now" directly adjacent to "bookmarked sites" - but now the address/search/toolbar is in between. Sigh.

I'm all for saving screen real estate, but with my 24" screen I've got plenty of room for the tab bar.
post #110 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by psychodoughboy View Post

I don't have a problem with "mouse distance" but I do think it's silly not to have tabs right below the bookmarks bar - I always felt it was most intuitive to have "sites i'm visiting right now" directly adjacent to "bookmarked sites" - but now the address/search/toolbar is in between. Sigh.

I'm all for saving screen real estate, but with my 24" screen I've got plenty of room for the tab bar.

Assuming you have a Mac you can revert to the old tab style by editing Safari's PLIST. Apple seems to often do this. They add a way to go back, change or remove a feature in PLIST, but when they are pushing it and it will take some getting used to they don't add a direct option for it in the app.

I have to wonder what else will lose the window bar. Do we really need it for most things? I don't think so. How about just the left corner with buttons and a small area for dragging the window like Safari now has?
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post #111 of 145
I think your just afraid of new stuff. When you look at tabs in a file cabinet, they are on the top bar. It is intuitive to put them there. I think the change is great. What I don't like is changing the progress bar from appearing in the address WIndow to the more subtle spinning circle.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Messiah View Post

I'm not sure about 'Tabs On Top' and I don't agree with comment that there is any 'wasted space' in the Title Bar.

Like whitespace on a page, the space in the Title Bar allows the user to identify the window quickly in an otherwise busy environment. When you start to introduce tabs, the OS will start to look cluttered very quickly.

Or perhaps I'm just scared of new stuff...
post #112 of 145
My biggest gripe with Safari 4 is how one cannot determine which top sites are the top sites! (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). Sure, you can move them, pin them, select grid size, etc. but what's the point if you can't SET THEM FOR YOURSELF? It's neat that it suggests sites to put on there, but they should also include the ability to choose my own. I found myself visiting a site over and over just so that Safari would suggest it in my Top Sites. I got the same feeling that I get when Microsoft Office says, "It looks like you're making a list!" and doesn't let me format my own bullets.

Also, it would be nice to have YouTube, Wikipedia and other common sites built into the search field.
post #113 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by acslater017 View Post

My biggest gripe with Safari 4 is how one cannot determine which top sites are the top sites! (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). Sure, you can move them, pin them, select grid size, etc. but what's the point if you can't SET THEM FOR YOURSELF? It's neat that it suggests sites to put on there, but they should also include the ability to choose my own. I found myself visiting a site over and over just so that Safari would suggest it in my Top Sites. I got the same feeling that I get when Microsoft Office says, "It looks like you're making a list!" and doesn't let me format my own bullets.

Also, it would be nice to have YouTube, Wikipedia and other common sites built into the search field.

What you can do is edit the top sites page and remove the pages you don't want. Then just keep doing that until the ones you want show up and voila. Not quite perfect, but it works.
post #114 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacHope theWorld View Post

What you can do is edit the top sites page and remove the pages you don't want. Then just keep doing that until the ones you want show up and voila. Not quite perfect, but it works.

I imagine that they will offer a better option in the future. For instance, when you hit the Edit button in Top Sites to see a search field, like the one present to search your browser history in CoverFlow, to quickly find then pin to your Top Sites. Though, they may have to default to the very top left so you can arrange them yourself in the correct location in the grid space.
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post #115 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

I think your just afraid of new stuff. When you look at tabs in a file cabinet, they are on the top bar. It is intuitive to put them there. I think the change is great. What I don't like is changing the progress bar from appearing in the address WIndow to the more subtle spinning circle.

Having a progress bar in a web browser is useful, as they say, as teats on a bull.

They display nothing more than the fact that a page is still in the process of being downloaded. So, having a bar that illustrates an inaccurate degree of completion is ludicrous.

At least the spinning circle informs us that there is an active connection. But with the speed that I am getting on most links with 4, I am finding that it too may now be redundant.
post #116 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Having a progress bar in a web browser is useful, as they say, as teats on a bull.

They display nothing more than the fact that a page is still in the process of being downloaded. So, having a bar that illustrates an inaccurate degree of completion is ludicrous.

At least the spinning circle informs us that there is an active connection. But with the speed that I am getting on most links with 4, I am finding that it too may now be redundant.

That's a good point. I had an immediate adverse reaction to the disappearance of the loading bar, but you're right, Safari 4 is so fast, it's almost a moot point (and that's on my 4 year old PBG4 running Tiger!). I'm also reminded of sites that never seem to finish loading *ahem, gmail! cough cough* so you have this useless blue bar along the top for no apparent reason.

Another reason they likely ditched it, as alluded to in the original article, is because it's a big shinny piece of Aqua! It's funny they didn't just drop the Aqua scroll bars too, but perhaps that'll be in the final version, or, as also suggested in the article, Apple may replace them with black scroll bars that disappear and reappear depending on what you're doing. They might not want to show their hand on what is likely to be system wide in Snow Leopard.

One change I haven't heard mentioned anywhere is how .MOV videos appear. Drag one into Safari or go to one on the internet and once it starts playing, the playhead and controls fade out, leaving the video to play with no distractions. Move your mouse to the video, the controls fade back in. Nifty.
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post #117 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by wobegon View Post

That's a good point. I had an immediate adverse reaction to the disappearance of the loading bar, but you're right, Safari 4 is so fast, it's almost a moot point (and that's on my 4 year old PBG4 running Tiger!). I'm also reminded of sites that never seem to finish loading *ahem, gmail! cough cough* so you have this useless blue bar along the top for no apparent reason.

Another reason they likely ditched it, as alluded to in the original article, is because it's a big shinny piece of Aqua! It's funny they didn't just drop the Aqua scroll bars too, but perhaps that'll be in the final version, or, as also suggested in the article, Apple may replace them with black scroll bars that disappear and reappear depending on what you're doing. They might not want to show their hand on what is likely to be system wide in Snow Leopard.

One change I haven't heard mentioned anywhere is how .MOV videos appear. Drag one into Safari or go to one on the internet and once it starts playing, the playhead and controls fade out, leaving the video to play with no distractions. Move your mouse to the video, the controls fade back in. Nifty.

You may be on to something there.
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post #118 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingdomArtist View Post

http://www.flickr.com/photos/35835860@N08/3308614371/

Here's a mockup design of what I think could be the new look of the Finder in Mac OS X Snow Leopard. Has tabbed interface like Safari 4 beta and other interface elements from iTunes 8. I think this look could be used across all Apple applications too.


Likes it! We have all (well most) come to love tabs. Apple, let's take this universal. I have been waiting and waiting for universal tabs in applications like Finder, Pages, Numbers, Excel, Word, iTunes, Mail...well you get the picture...any app that can have multiple documents or pages to be viewed, let's throw in Tabs and boost productivity (since we all know that tabs have boosted our browsing).

Also....Spaces...well, its ok....but virtual desktops in a tabbed environment!!! Now, that would be productive and fast and neat and tidy....and....best of all...universal to the way we do other things.
post #119 of 145
Safari 4 looks very good. It's certainly as fast or faster than Chrome when loading webpages but slightly slower in application launching. All it needs is Adblock Plus and mouse gestures from Firefox, and we're good.

I do find the UI for the tab-on-top to be terrible on Vista. See my screenshot below. For reason, it literally hurts my eyes staring at those tabs when the window is maximized. You can see how much better Chrome implementation is for the tabs (at least to me). We should also be able to rearrange the tabs without having to click on that tiny "rib" on the right corner. Why make that harder than it should be? Just click-hold-and-drag anywhere on each tab.

My only other suggestion: Make the tabs management the same as Chrome.

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/432...hrome1beta.jpg
post #120 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjoec123 View Post

Control + Tab will switch tabs for you. No need for the mouse.

If you have a lot of open tabs, using a mouse is much more efficient than Control + Tabbing through 5-10 open tabs..
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