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Apple shareholder meeting dominated by politics

post #1 of 110
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Apple's annual shareholder meeting was dominated, as usual, by groups using the event as a soapbox for furthering their political agenda. Apple COO Tim Cook only answered a couple real questions from individuals, and the crowd sang out happy birthday to Steve Jobs, who was away on medical leave.

The hour long meeting was consumed by four largely symbolic shareholder proposals that failed to pass in a preliminary tally of votes, each of which was rallied against by Shelton Ehrlich, a staunch conservative who grew increasingly upset as he voiced his opinions on various measures.

Ehrlich's comments began during the discussion on reelecting the board of directors, where he complained about criminal conspiracies related to Al Gore. He again commented on the first shareholder proposal, which was advanced by the Teamsters union seeking a more complete report on all any expenses related to political contributions or memberships of trade organizations. Ehrlich said it was hypocritical for the Teamsers to demand transparent funding, but then tied together another conspiracy involving President Obama before giving up the microphone.
Ehrlich also commented on a second proposal forwarded by the AFL-CIO, which asked the company to adopt health care reform policies. Ehrlich managed to start what became an ongoing joke by fuming that the measure was being pushed by socialists here before swearing and then excusing himself to get a drink.

A third proposal asked the company to report more extensively on its efforts related to climate change, and a fourth requested the company to initiate a shareholder advisory vote on executive compensation. The presenter also grilled the board, demanding to know the company's succession plans related to Jobs. He also complained that members of the board had been protected by Jobs from such direct interrogation at earlier meetings by Jobs.

Apple board member Arthur Levinson, who is also the CEO of Genentech, answered by saying, we believe we have met all disclosure obligations, and commented that since he joined the board nearly a decade ago, there have been regular discussions about the company's succession plans, and that the matter is one of the primary duties of boards to attend to in general. Members of the tech media have frequently reported that Apple has no succession plan, as if the company was completely unaware of what might happen if Jobs became unable to return to his regular duties after his medical leave.

Levinson also noted that Jobs is deeply involved in all strategic matters and has delegated day to day authority to Tim Cook and his team. Thats where it stands. After the measure to reelect members of the board passed and all four shareholder proposals failed, the floor was opened up to general comments prefaced by comments from the COO.

The part of Steve Jobs will be played by Cook

Cook presented a terse overview of the company's recent successes, noting that four years ago the company's revenues were at 8 billion, but last year multiplied four fold to reach 32 billion. Net income increased to 4.8 billion, 18 times the number from four years prior.

Mac sales had reached 9.7 million last year, Cook noted, a 38% increase and two to three times the industry pace, while iPod sales had hit 55 million, gaining share in markets around the world. The iPhone also exceeded the ten million target set for calendar 2008, reaching sales of 13.7 million.

Cook attributed the company's success to employees [who] worked their hearts out. He also noted that Apple climbed to the top of the music reseller business, asking do you know who number two is? Wal-Mart! Can you believe that Apple sold more of something than Wal-Mart?

The success of the iPhone App Store has become the envy of the industry, Cook said, while the company's brick and mortar retail efforts were resulting in one new store per week, and the company's first new outlets in Australia, China, Switzerland, and Germany this year. Cook also noted that Apple was the top notebook provider to education, in both K-12 and higher ed.

Scant opportunity for shareholder questions

Cook then called for public comments, saying he was happy to live in a country with freedom of speech and invited conservatives, socialists, and liberals to approach the microphones. The general questions period was again dominated by the presenters of the failed shareholder proposals, but only after an individual thanked the company for its efforts to build great products and suggested that, with Steve Jobs likely listening, the group might want to sing him a happy birthday. Jobs' turned 54 yesterday. Everyone stood up and sang.

Another individual asked why Apple had canceled plans to attend Macworld, suggesting the company at least set up a small booth next year. Cook responded that everyone at Apple has fond memories of Macworld, but recounted the reality that Apple's investment in retail has resulted in visitor numbers on a weekly basis equivalent to many Macworlds, and that the company can now call press conferences right when the company is ready for them and gain the press coverage that once required a trade show event.

A Mac user asked why the company only targets the needs of entry-level consumers with iLife rather than relying on third parties to provide midrange and professional apps such as web tools. Cook deferred the question to Phil Schiller, who affably thanked her for being a customer and noted that the company does make Pro Apps for certain markets. Schiller also noted that the market for web creation tools was changing, and that it considers Adobe a strong partner and has no plans to build a professional web page tool of its own.

The rest of the commenters, most of whom identified themselves as 'not being socialist, were largely a rehashing of the same issues from the presenters of the failed shareholder proposals. Cook promptly cut off questions from remaining individuals after the meeting reached its hour length.

The company had moved members of the press into a secondary overflow auditorium to prevent the meeting from turning into a press conference, but several shareholders in attendance expressed dissatisfaction with the company for only seeing fit to grant shareholders a very short few minutes each year to comment and query executives, particularly after spending so much time granting a podium to special interests pushing agendas that have regularly been rejected by the majority of the company's shareholders.
post #2 of 110
It certainly is a new Apple without SJ and in an Obama nation. Cook doesn't seem very inspiring by what this article reports.
post #3 of 110
Sounds like they should buy back Shelton Urlick's stock and avoid a complete takeover of these meetings by him.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #4 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Urlick's comments began during the discussion on reelecting the board of directors, where he complained about criminal conspiracies related to Al Gore. He again commented on the first shareholder proposal, which was advanced by the Teamsters union seeking a more complete report on all any expenses related to political contributions or memberships of trade organizations. Urlick said it was hypocritical for the Teamsers to demand transparent funding, but then tied together another conspiracy involving President Obama before giving up the microphone.

Just... wow... I love how conservatives are trying their hardest to bring McCarthyism back by using "socialism" as a fear tactic. FYI: social democracy is alive and well for health care in the U.K., Canada, Sweden, Germany - need I go on? Having a fit during an Apple shareholders meeting, swearing and stomping off only demonstrates the frustration and immaturity of their ilk. Leave it out of Apple...
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post #5 of 110
Quote:
A Mac user asked why the company only targets the needs of entry-level consumers with iLife rather than relying on third parties to provide midrange and professional apps such as web tools. Cook deferred the question to Phil Schiller, who affably thanked her for being a customer and noted that the company does make Pro Apps for certain markets. Schiller also noted that the market for web creation tools was changing, and that it considers Adobe a strong partner and has no plans to build a professional web page tool of its own.

I think this is a bit shortsighted. I wouldn't necessarily call Adobe a strong partner for standard web tools. AIR isn't bad but Flash is as much bad as it is good. I don't expect Adobe to deliver web standard features of HTML5 that conflict with AIR/Flash.

Though there's hope with Coda and Espresso on the lower end.
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post #6 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

I think this is a bit shortsighted. I wouldn't necessarily call Adobe a strong partner for standard web tools. AIR isn't bad but Flash is as much bad as it is good. I don't expect Adobe to deliver web standard features of HTML5 that conflict with AIR/Flash.

Though there's hope with Coda and Espresso on the lower end.

Don't you think that Phil Schiller was referring to Adobe Creative suite products rather than AIR.

Dreamweaver
Cold Fusion
and Flash

These are the Pro apps that he is referring to and that Apple won't be making competing products against.
post #7 of 110
Is this the beginning of the end for Apple?
post #8 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

It certainly is a new Apple without SJ and in an Obama nation. Cook doesn't seem very inspiring by what this article reports.

Didn't know that a stockholder meeting was a place for "inspiration". I think the numbers speak for themselves. I walk into the local Apple store and the products inspire by themselves.
post #9 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJD2112 View Post

Just... wow... I love how conservatives are trying their hardest to bring McCarthyism back by using "socialism" as a fear tactic. FYI: social democracy is alive and well for health care in the U.K., Canada, Sweden, Germany - need I go on? Having a fit during an Apple shareholders meeting, swearing and stomping off only demonstrates the frustration and immaturity of their ilk. Leave it out of Apple...


The only thing that Obama forgot to announce in his speech last night was the cure for cancer.
Really, now, politics should have no role in the private sector's approach to innovation with computing. If the government had a hand in the development of the computer we'd all still be using IIe's.
post #10 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gyokuro View Post

The only thing that Obama forgot to announce in his speech last night was the cure for cancer.
Really, now, politics should have no role in the private sector's approach to innovation with computing. If the government had a hand in the development of the computer we'd all still be using IIe's.

An Apple IIe is far too generous. If government were involved, we would be using the slide rule and an abacus.
post #11 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by CU10 View Post

Is this the beginning of the end for Apple?

No.

Jimzip
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post #12 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gyokuro View Post

The only thing that Obama forgot to announce in his speech last night was the cure for cancer.
Really, now, politics should have no role in the private sector's approach to innovation with computing. If the government had a hand in the development of the computer we'd all still be using IIe's.

Actually, he DID announce the goal of developing a cure for cancer during his speech last night.
post #13 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJD2112 View Post

Just... wow... I love how conservatives are trying their hardest to bring McCarthyism back by using "socialism" as a fear tactic. FYI: social democracy is alive and well for health care in the U.K., Canada, Sweden, Germany - need I go on? Having a fit during an Apple shareholders meeting, swearing and stomping off only demonstrates the frustration and immaturity of their ilk. Leave it out of Apple...

All those countries you mention pay HIGH taxes, a contractor I work with is from Canada and he is still a citizen and works here due to the high taxes he would have to pay there.

Obama is pushing a socialist agenda.

However I don't need to hear a political speech every time someone is on a stage, from the stupid Grammy Awards to a private company shareholder meeting.




I already have to listen to the guy at work go on about how BUSH flew the planes into the towers on 9-11 (ok..Bush only was at air traffic control), to how Bush was having Black Ops tack out Dems. Haha
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post #14 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gyokuro View Post

The only thing that Obama forgot to announce in his speech last night was the cure for cancer.
Really, now, politics should have no role in the private sector's approach to innovation with computing. If the government had a hand in the development of the computer we'd all still be using IIe's.

um, care to stop and think about the government's roll in the development and funding of the internet, not to mention the fact that the entire miniaturization that led to the computer industry came straight from the space program?
Get off the 'government can do no good' meme.
post #15 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

um, care to stop and think about the government's roll in the development and funding of the internet, not to mention the fact that the entire miniaturization that led to the computer industry came straight from the space program?
Get off the 'government can do no good' meme.


That was back before over half the budget was spent on social programs.
But in its current bloated form all it does is hinder.
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post #16 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissionGrey View Post

All those countries you mention pay HIGH taxes, a contractor I work with is from Canada and he is still a citizen and works here due to the high taxes he would have to pay there.

Canadian taxes are slightly lower than US taxes, at least at the federal level, and at least in the highest tax bracket. Your friend probably left Canada before they lowered taxes.

http://www.taxtips.ca/taxrates/canada.htm
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post #17 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by irnchriz View Post

Don't you think that Phil Schiller was referring to Adobe Creative suite products rather than AIR.

Dreamweaver
Cold Fusion
and Flash

These are the Pro apps that he is referring to and that Apple won't be making competing products against.

I don't really know. Dreamweaver is a nice app but it seems to make sense to have a iWeb Pro that focuses on Apple's agenda of utilizing open web standards. I certainly wouldn't expect Cold Fusion/Flash like apps from Apple.
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post #18 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gyokuro View Post

If the government had a hand in the development of the computer we'd all still be using IIe's.

Yeah except for that whole mostly-worthless "internet" thing that developed out of ARPANET.

On a side note, the whole "Government is bad so let's minimize it's role in everything except defense and the enforcement of Christian theocratic "morality" through "obscenity" censorship laws, anti-sodomy/oral sex laws, anti-homosexuality and anti-gay marriage laws, banning alcohol sales on Sundays, anti-abortion (even in the case of incest and/or rape) laws, anti-stem cell research laws, pro-creationism and anti-evolution "academic freedom" laws". mythos of the modern conservative movement is getting really tiring. I think most people agree that the Federal government is a necessary force and should be IMPROVED and made more EFFICIENT (not necessarily enlarged), not dismantled. Also, it's funny how republicans are screaming about "big government" and the national debt after 8 years of bush presiding over the largest expansion of federal government and the largest expansion of the national debt in a generation!
post #19 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

It certainly is a new Apple without SJ and in an Obama nation. Cook doesn't seem very inspiring by what this article reports.

Again, you are first on the thread, your comment is exclusively negative, and ties together completely disparate weirdness for no apparent purpose and with no apparent meaning.


Personally, it sounded kind of fun to me and Cook sounded exactly like he always does which is pretty close to exactly how Steve Jobs sounds. I had heard it was a dull meeting but this article makes it sound better than that.

Nice to hear that Steve Jobs is not at deaths door as Enderle reported just the other day and that people regularly comment about on this forum. Take that, all you losers that regularly drop hints that you "know" that Steve Jobs isn't coming back to Apple.
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post #20 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by winterspan View Post

Yeah except for that whole mostly-worthless "internet" thing that developed out of ARPANET.

On a side note, the whole "Government is bad so let's minimize it's role in everything except defense and the enforcement of Christian theocratic "morality" through "obscenity" censorship laws, anti-sodomy/oral sex laws, anti-homosexuality and anti-gay marriage laws, banning alcohol sales on Sundays, anti-abortion (even in the case of incest and/or rape) laws, anti-stem cell research laws, pro-creationism and anti-evolution "academic freedom" laws". mythos of the modern conservative movement is getting really tiring. I think most people agree that the Federal government is a necessary force and should be IMPROVED and made more EFFICIENT, not dismantled.

Word!
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post #21 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

um, care to stop and think about the government's roll in the development and funding of the internet, not to mention the fact that the entire miniaturization that led to the computer industry came straight from the space program?
Get off the 'government can do no good' meme.

By government, do you mean Military? Black Budget funding has been going on for decades. The creation of the internet was a result of the need for communication in the event of a nuclear holocaust. Miniaturization originated in the military. Let's not forget now that Google is in bed with NASA.
Exciting things ahead for tech., depending on your perspective.
post #22 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by winterspan View Post

Yeah except for that whole mostly-worthless "internet" thing that developed out of ARPANET.

On a side note, the whole "Government is bad so let's minimize it's role in everything except defense and the enforcement of Christian theocratic "morality" through "obscenity" censorship laws, anti-sodomy/oral sex laws, anti-homosexuality and anti-gay marriage laws, banning alcohol sales on Sundays, anti-abortion (even in the case of incest and/or rape) laws, anti-stem cell research laws, pro-creationism and anti-evolution "academic freedom" laws". mythos of the modern conservative movement is getting really tiring. I think most people agree that the Federal government is a necessary force and should be IMPROVED and made more EFFICIENT (not necessarily enlarged), not dismantled. Also, it's funny how republicans are screaming about "big government" and the national debt after 8 years of bush presiding over the largest expansion of federal government and the largest expansion of the national debt in a generation!

Blah, Blah, Blah.....
Bad day? I'm with you.
post #23 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissionGrey View Post

All those countries you mention pay HIGH taxes, a contractor I work with is from Canada and he is still a citizen and works here due to the high taxes he would have to pay there.

Obama is pushing a socialist agenda. ...

Speaking as a Canadian, you don't know what you're talking about here.

Countries like Canada and the European nations provide many more services to their population that the USA, for which they usually pay slightly higher taxes. If you could get both, like your construction friend, (unless you have morals) you probably will, that's just human nature. In general, the higher taxes are offset by a safer country, better standard of living, more freedom and higher wages.

A USA citizen basically knows absolutely *nothing* about what Socialism even is, and the USA is completely out of step with 90% of the world on this issue and has been for decades. Every time a citizen of the USA says something about "Socialism" on a forum like this that is read by people around the world, they are just making themselves look like an idiot.

Canada is not a "socialist" country, but even the right wing parties up here are somewhat to the left of Obama. Even Cuba is a bit of a stretch to call "socialist" these days.
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post #24 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gyokuro View Post

The only thing that Obama forgot to announce in his speech last night was the cure for cancer.
Really, now, politics should have no role in the private sector's approach to innovation with computing. If the government had a hand in the development of the computer we'd all still be using IIe's.

Can you be truly that dumb?

The government DID have a hand in the devo of the computer AND the internet. I suppose DARPA and NASA are insignificant wastes of taxpayer money.

As much as it is easy to take swipes at the government - anybody with a 6th grade view of life can do so - it takes some intellectual honesty to really appreciate the strengths and weaknesses of the government.

Without the government wed still be waiting for Richard Branson to be trying to make flights to the Moon cost effective and both the Soviet Union and China would have been there a dozen times by now.

Admit that the government does play a role in technology and MBAs arent Gods gift to mankind and lay off 20 year old Reagan jokes.
The Mother of all flip-flops!!
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post #25 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissionGrey View Post

However I don't need to hear a political speech every time someone is on a stage, from the stupid Grammy Awards to a private company shareholder meeting.

How about your dumb comments on AppleInsider threads?!?!?
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post #26 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Canadian taxes are slightly lower than US taxes, at least at the federal level, and at least in the highest tax bracket. Your friend probably left Canada before they lowered taxes.

http://www.taxtips.ca/taxrates/canada.htm

You're an idiot.
post #27 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by rain View Post

Your an idiot.

(You're) an idiot.
post #28 of 110
As a denizen of the overflow room, I thank Prince McLean for his more detailed
commentary than the off-the-cuff remarks I posted in another thread.
McLean's report rings true.

Those who think Tim Cook seems uninspiring may be underestimating him or
misunderstanding his role. In person you can sense his fierce focus, even moreso
than with hizzoner Jobs. If you were an Apple employee, you would get/give
inspiration no matter which alpha person was at the helm.

Two cents on the banter. The web/graphics entrepreneur was commenting upon
not just the limitations of Apple's iLife apps, but the steep learning curves of items
like Dreamweaver. She may not fit with Apple's current mass marketing, and falls
by the wayside in the expensive care-and-feeding of high-end stuff like FCP.
Her point may be valid, but we saw how Apple "middled-out" offerings like
Final Cut Express.

Oh, and about the green goon squad, who somehow ignores Apple's product revs
and animated greenish banner ads on the front page of nytimes.com. To reduce
carbon footprint, what do they want Apple to do, go beyond cutting out pastries for
shareholders to take away the coffee, too? They'd win a Pyrrhic victory, I suppose,
if Apple were to ditch all their servers and live in the Google cloud.

Back to the overflow room, the greenies did get me thinking. That room has
ten rows of eight recessed 75W dimmable halogen lamps. If Apple retrofit 80
Cree LR6 LED downlights (as they do Cree LEDS in LG-sourced displays) in this
and many other rooms in buildings at Infinite Loop, they might save a mess of
kilowatts. [Disclaimer, I also own shares in CREE.]

Lastly, it was a little bizarre to see shareholder/kook Shelton take pot shots at
a Nobel prize winner a short distance away, who could only roll his eyes and
chew his gum a bit more distractedly. But in the history of Apple shareholder
meetings, there have been more tense confrontations -- just ask Michael Spindler!
post #29 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gyokuro View Post

(You're) an idiot.

You're 're right there.
post #30 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gyokuro View Post

(You're) an idiot.

happy?
post #31 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacGregor View Post

Can you be truly that dumb?

The government DID have a hand in the devo of the computer AND the internet. I suppose DARPA and NASA are insignificant wastes of taxpayer money.

As much as it is easy to take swipes at the government - anybody with a 6th grade view of life can do so - it takes some intellectual honesty to really appreciate the strengths and weaknesses of the government.

Without the government wed still be waiting for Richard Branson to be trying to make flights to the Moon cost effective and both the Soviet Union and China would have been there a dozen times by now.

Admit that the government does play a role in technology and MBAs arent Gods gift to mankind and lay off 20 year old Reagan jokes.

I submit that government is needed, but don't confuse the prospect of throwing money at something as success. NASA has been flying the equivalent of a 1970's stationwagon into space for 20+ years. Successfully, yes, but where is the innovation. That is my point. You can put your skirt back on now.
post #32 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gyokuro View Post

NASA has been flying the equivalent of a 1970's stationwagon into space for 20+ years.

If you have a valid point to make, it is lost by making hyperbolic statements like the one above without having a single relevant and real example to back up your claims.
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post #33 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by winterspan View Post

Yeah except for that whole mostly-worthless "internet" thing that developed out of ARPANET.

On a side note, the whole "Government is bad so let's minimize it's role in everything except defense and the enforcement of Christian theocratic "morality" through "obscenity" censorship laws, anti-sodomy/oral sex laws, anti-homosexuality and anti-gay marriage laws, banning alcohol sales on Sundays, anti-abortion (even in the case of incest and/or rape) laws, anti-stem cell research laws, pro-creationism and anti-evolution "academic freedom" laws". mythos of the modern conservative movement is getting really tiring. I think most people agree that the Federal government is a necessary force and should be IMPROVED and made more EFFICIENT (not necessarily enlarged), not dismantled. Also, it's funny how republicans are screaming about "big government" and the national debt after 8 years of bush presiding over the largest expansion of federal government and the largest expansion of the national debt in a generation!

Yesssssssss!
post #34 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

If you have a valid point to make, it is lost by making hyperbolic statements like the one above without having a single relevant and real example to back up your claims.

Ancient technology and dead astronauts. Is that pointed enough? Try harder my friend. Once again, innovation WAS my original point.
post #35 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gyokuro View Post

Ancient technology and dead astronauts. Is that pointed enough

Pointed is pretty much the opposite of what you posted. Vague and obtuse seem more apt. I read quite a lot about "sciencey" stuff. a good deal of discoveries and innovations do come from NASA. If you expecting the discovery that Saturn's red spot is really an ancient alien giant cheery Slurpee machine then you are going to be unimpressed. much of it is in technologies that would not interest the public at large. Or may only interest them if they were given to understand some deeper concepts behind them. More often than I care to admit, i require a layman's explanation to get a handle of what some of these innovations could mean for the future.
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post #36 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

A USA citizen basically knows absolutely *nothing* about what Socialism even is,

Don't worry, we're on the fast track to finding out.

Quote:
and the USA is completely out of step with 90% of the world on this issue and has been for decades.

As a U.S. citizen, I find that as a good thing.

Quote:
Every time a citizen of the USA says something about "Socialism" on a forum like this that is read by people around the world, they are just making themselves look like an idiot.

Why? If socialism and communism are so good, then why has it killed so many millions of people in the last 100 years? Why do so many people risk their lives to come to this country? How come there isn't a mass exodus of United States citizens fleeing to other countries?

Back to the story, I'm glad Shelton stood up and kept the company on track TO BUILD COMPUTERS AND GADGETS. If I wanted to invest my money in to social programs I would have donated it to the government. Let these "staunch liberals" do all of the happy, touchy, feely, stuff on their own time, on their own dime. Why does everything have to turn in to a political battle? This is what I expect of Apple, treat every one the same, i.e. blacks, whites, gays, straights, and make lots of money, end of story.
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post #37 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Pointed is pretty much the opposite of what you posted. Vague and obtuse seem more apt. I read quite a lot about "sciencey" stuff. a good deal of discoveries and innovations do come from NASA. If you expecting the discovery that Saturn's red spot is really an ancient alien giant cheery Slurpee machine then you are going to be unimpressed. much of it is in technologies that would not interest the public at large. Or may only interest them if they were given to understand some deeper concepts behind them. More often than I care to admit, i require a layman's explanation to get a handle of what some of these innovations could mean for the future.

I don't disagree with your approach, but entertain me by giving me a reasonable answer as to why NASA has not invested it's creative energies into new manned space vehicles, such as the shuttle? I appreciate all things "sciencey", but if we are going to be serious about exploration or growing the deeper concepts you appreciate, shouldn't we be more dedicated to renewing the "hardware" of the mission(s). Though unmanned, the Mars Rover was an amazing example of this potential. But I digress. We may be more alike than different.
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post #38 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissionGrey View Post

All those countries you mention pay HIGH taxes, a contractor I work with is from Canada and he is still a citizen and works here due to the high taxes he would have to pay there.

Obama is pushing a socialist agenda.

However I don't need to hear a political speech every time someone is on a stage, from the stupid Grammy Awards to a private company shareholder meeting.




I already have to listen to the guy at work go on about how BUSH flew the planes into the towers on 9-11 (ok..Bush only was at air traffic control), to how Bush was having Black Ops tack out Dems. Haha

Uum, would you care to examine facts on how much we pay in taxes versus other nations that do have health care? Then, do the math. As our taxes are not much behind, we also have to pay out of pocket for health care, which for me and my family ranges between 400-900 month. I'd rather have health care included as my family in England pays less per year when including my yearly expenses with health care.

Lastly, "socialist" and "social democracy" are two very different terms/concepts. It is amusing that conservatives are using the new "boogeyman" term when the U.S. already has "socialized" schools, police, firemen - so many of our civil servants are government funded. While you're at it, explain why socialized medicine would be the next big evil when our government employees and politicians have government health care. Oh, wait, it's because so many health insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies and doctors would lose billions. As a diabetic, and as I have a few friends who have worked for Merck and Johnson & Johnson in research and development and as project managers, the industry would rather continue funding money into treatments rather than cures as there is millions in money for treatments in one lifetime than there is even in one expensive cure. The fact is, there is too much money to lose and big business has too many lobbyists and too much at stake.
Psst, there's a war in Darfur...
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Psst, there's a war in Darfur...
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post #39 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by winterspan View Post

yeah except for that whole mostly-worthless "internet" thing that developed out of arpanet.

On a side note, the whole "government is bad so let's minimize it's role in everything except defense and the enforcement of christian theocratic "morality" through "obscenity" censorship laws, anti-sodomy/oral sex laws, anti-homosexuality and anti-gay marriage laws, banning alcohol sales on sundays, anti-abortion (even in the case of incest and/or rape) laws, anti-stem cell research laws, pro-creationism and anti-evolution "academic freedom" laws". mythos of the modern conservative movement is getting really tiring. I think most people agree that the federal government is a necessary force and should be improved and made more efficient (not necessarily enlarged), not dismantled. Also, it's funny how republicans are screaming about "big government" and the national debt after 8 years of bush presiding over the largest expansion of federal government and the largest expansion of the national debt in a generation!

amen.
Psst, there's a war in Darfur...
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Psst, there's a war in Darfur...
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post #40 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gyokuro View Post

I don't disagree with your approach, but entertain me by giving me a reasonable answer as to why NASA has not invested it's creative energies into new manned space vehicles, such as the shuttle?

A more pragmatic NASA seems to have foregone the shuttle in favour or rocket for future missions. They are simpler, and therefore inherently cheaper and safer (though of course neither cheap or safe compared to any of our standards).

Quote:
I appreciate all things "sciencey", but if we are going to be serious about exploration or growing the deeper concepts you appreciate, shouldn't we be more dedicated to renewing the "hardware" of the mission(s).

I don't think new fancy HW is the answer. New fancy technology is. One of those things being cheaper and better fuels. NASA is working on some more fun stuff, which they put into competitions, like the machines to extract oxygen from lunar soil and rocks, which apparently makes up about 45% of the weight, and the space elevator that uses a counterweight attached to carbon-nanotubes that work from gravitational and centrifugal forces.

Quote:
Though unmanned, the Mars Rover was an amazing example of this potential.

Yes it was and it actually got people excited. They plan to go back to the moon, but but setting up any form of habitat appears to be several decades off. While you didn't actually state it, I agree that NASA should also work on some more flare project to get people interested in what they are doing.

Quote:
but I digress. We may be more alike than different.
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A comparison of more and less is always based on a POV. Even an apple and orange are more alike than dislike in most areas that I can think of. For instance, they are both seasonal, edible fruits from trees.


PS: Imagine for a second how science and life would have evolved on Earth had the moon had been rotating in a way that we did not always see the same face. It seems to be that even a slight rotation off from the revolution around the Earth would have allowed even the most uneducated to empirically know that the moon was a sphere, and assume that so was the Earth and other celestial bodies.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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