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Apple introduces compact wired keyboard with new iMacs - Page 4

post #121 of 155
Honestly, whenever i'm not using the 10-key, it ends up getting in the way. I have limited desk space, and the long-ass keyboard gets in the way of my mouse, and ends up with my keyboard off-centered of everything else. About half the time, I hate it, the other half, its indispensable.
And for educational purposes, i love it. As a student, entering hundreds points of experimental data into Numbers would honestly suck without a 10-key.
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17" i7 Macbook Pro (Mid 2010), Mac Mini (early 2006), G3 B&W, G3 Beige Tower, 3 G3 iMacs (original, bondi, snow), Power Mac 7600/132, Power Mac 7100/100, Power Mac 6100/60, Performa 5280, Performa...
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post #122 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstranathan View Post

That was a totally different keyboard with different materials. We are talking circa early 2000's (G4s)

The new MacBooks have black keys.

For that matter, who decided that black and aluminum go together. The only other thing I don't understand is why they didn't release a black-keyboard to match the iMacs. (And why the Mini is still white, but I digress.) It's funny that when they create a new aesthetic, it seems to take FOREVER for them to adopt it uniformly (see: GUI and brushed aluminum.)

Incidentally, as relates to the above, the keys on the MacBook/Pros are backlit, meaning that the letters aren't simply screened on, as they were before. It's actually quite the opposite - the key is translucent and the area around the letter is sprayed a different color, allowing the letter to light up. Anyway, there's no chance of the letters wearing off this way - it would actually happen the other way around, if at all.
post #123 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by filburt View Post

This sounds like a scheme to get people to order from Apple, instead of more affordable outlets such as Amazon.com. Otherwise, Apple would've bundled wired keyboard WITH numeric keypad as the default option, with keypadless as BTO.

Apple has been going out of their way in order to squeeze out third party Mac resellers for some time. First, they cut back on the number of ready to ship models when they shifted to the Mac Pro, which starts killing the sales at the high end because then resellers don't have ready to sell machines with a high end graphics card or the higher end CPU options. I worked for an Apple reseller for a while and after they did that selling Apple's pro tower became challenging.

Then they made the glossy screens the standard ready to ship config for the MBPs. A lot of people wanted a matte finish, which Apple made a CTO option only.

Being an Apple reseller is hard enough with the thin margins they have on their machines, but between Apple's reseller agreement that is decidedly written in their favor and this latest decision it is clear that Apple really wants to kill their resellers so that they can keep as much of the margin on Mac sales as they can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JavaCowboy View Post

Why doesn't somebody just develop an LCD keyboard? The lack of tactile feedback would be compensated for in the same way that the iPhone/iTouch compensates for it: by showing you large versions of the letters on the screen.

This would solve tons of problems:

1) No need for various international keyboards, Dvorak, etc. This would be especially beneficial for French Canadians, who are cursed with an extremely rare variety of keyboard, the French version of QWERTY (in France, they use AZERTY). They need to wait longer than most if their favourite brand of keyboard changes.
2) Keyboard shortcuts could be displayed prominently when somebody presses a modifier key (ex Comand)
3) Gaming. Gamers could see which keys do what (ex "W" is to go forward)
4) Dual-trackpad functionality. If I want to turn the keyboard into a giant trackpad, there's nothing stopping me).

What's preventing computer makers in general from doing this?

Try cost. A touch screen of a large enough area to provide a usable full size keyboard would cost several hundred dollars and still have no tactile feedback. Honestly, if it weren't so expensive (~$1500) I would prefer an Optimus Maximus keyboard instead of a touchscreen. If one of the keys dies I can buy a replacement key for ~$10, but fixing a touchscreen might not be worth fixing at all.

Unless voice recognition improves dramatically or neural input systems come along I don't see keyboard disappearing in he near future.
post #124 of 155
Lack of numeric keypad is ok, its yet another reason why Macs will never be a gaming vehicle (although the PC seems to be loosing to consoles despite the fact that most multi-platform games use the PC as its best port!) as it further limits possibilities for games to transcend to the mac space.

Dobby.
post #125 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

As usual, YMMV. I type 80wpm on the top row.
What I don't get is people who insist on being vulgar and snipe-ish simply because a company doesn't tailor its options specifically to them.
Must be such a sad life.

I'm sorry, but the number keys are used to type words per minute?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeTheRock View Post

Honestly, whenever i'm not using the 10-key, it ends up getting in the way. I have limited desk space, and the long-ass keyboard gets in the way of my mouse, and ends up with my keyboard off-centered of everything else.

That reminds me of what would be my choice, something like the Comfort keyboard. Hands apart at shoulder with are more ergonomic anyway, and the numeric keypad can go in between the sections. That would require very little movement to go from keyboard to pointing device. Apple actually made a similar keyboard once, the adjustable Apple Ergonomic Keyboard with its cursor and numeric keypads in a separate section, but the quality was abysmal, with poor key action and tons of key bounce. If Apple made a compact, three-part design today with current quality standards, I'd be all over it. But since I don't want to spend over $100 on one of the Comfort or Kinesis ergonomic keyboards, all of my keyboards are Microsoft Natural Pro models (split and angled) picked up on eBay for $20 a pop. They're the only Microsoft product I actually like.
post #126 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by luke1robb View Post

I think this move to get rid of the num. pad and decrease the width of the keyboard is a good sign that Apple might be prepping a multi-touch glass trackpad for their desktop line. By have it be smaller, one could attach (via usb) a trackpad to either end of the keyboard (lefty or righty).

Don't blow this off, I think its gonna happen in some manner. Multi-touch is still non-existent on their desktop line, a glaring signal to me.

Thoughts?

Absolutely, there's no other way of introducing multi-touch on a desktop - a touch screen will be rubbish and Apple probably knows this. A desktop touchpad would be fantastic.
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post #127 of 155
OMGosh dude that is the coolest keyboard I have ever seen!

RT
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post #128 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

You might want to actually try the new keyboards for a while though, they really are great once you get used to the different action. I started by being forced to use one on my work computer when the first Apple aluminium keyboards came out as I had a new machine at the time, and eventually I decided they were better than the old ones.

The two major problems I have with the Apple keyboard:
  1. It's not split
  2. There's no wrist rest
I have a very hard time using a keyboard which isn't split since it always feels like my wrists are being strained. I have a tendency to rest my elbows on the desk as I type (curved desk), which creates an odd wrist angle on keyboards which aren't split. Anytime I have to use my laptop keyboard heavily for an extended period of time, I inevitably find myself doing wrist stretches within an hour or so to help alleviate the strain I feel. Though some of that could be related to using the trackpad as well...

Also, having to rest the bottoms of my hands on the desk at whatever angle the keyboard happens to make with it just feels wrong.

Clicky or non-clicky keyboard doesn't matter to me (I've used both over the years). And yes, I've used a number of keyboards dating back to the Vic-20 as well. However, I do admit that I am intrigued by the shorter button press distance. Not necessarily for typing speed, but for less button pressure required to type.

Maybe I'll cut open the Apple keyboard and see if it's possible to do a split keyboard mod on it (since I'm not doing anything else with it anyways).
 
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post #129 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfabulous View Post

STOP THE WHINING ALREADY!!!!

Apple has made it possible to choose wich ever keyboard you want! There is now 3 konfigurations. All should be happy. But NOOOOOOO!!!!! Cry babies!!!

Besides... I use my number keypads every single minut during worktime. A little less during wake hometime. All on a MacBook Pro! I have owned numeric keyboards, but after buying and using the MBP and its keyboard, I have never wanted to look back!!! IT IS NO PROBLEM... if you ask me!

It´s all a matter of changing habits! AND then you have a keyboard that gives you more space, and gives room for upcoming external usb-devices, and other cool upgrades.

...YOU STILL HAVE A CHOICE though!


Hey, anybody can criticize what Apple does! What is pissing people off including me is that Apple recently is taking away ports and hardware features will-nilly.
post #130 of 155
[QUOTE=Outsider;1384552]I bought one of these suckers tonight. The store I went to, Southpoint in NC, only had versions with WIRELESS keyboards for $50 more, $1549. I got it anyway since I had a wired kb and Logitech mouse at home. Anyone want the wireless keyboard and wireless mighty mouse for $50 (for both)? Unwrapped. This is the AI forums special. Please PM if interested.

Hope you enjoy your new Mac, fellow NC/Wake County dweller.
post #131 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by palex9 View Post

Hey, anybody can criticize what Apple does! What is pissing people off including me is that Apple recently is taking away ports and hardware features will-nilly.

Like what?
post #132 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Like what?

Like FireWire from the MacBook.
post #133 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by palex9 View Post

Like FireWire from the MacBook.

Firewire 400 has been out forever, it was time to let it go. Let's bring back ADC while we are at it.
post #134 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by UTisNUM1 View Post

Firewire 400 has been out forever, it was time to let it go. Let's bring back ADC while we are at it.

Well they could have put in a FW800 instead of removing it altogether!

Would be nice if people would stop defending every idiot move Apple makes.
post #135 of 155
Short keyboard: Ideal for most.

Mouse is closer. Most people don't use or have minimal use of a number pad

Add a separate numeric keypad Logitech Cordless Number Pad For Notebooks http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/ke.../3075&cl=ca,en

And if you look hard enough, their are numeric key pad/calculator. My accountant has this one: http://www.trust.com/products/produc...spx?item=14152

And their are even numeric key pad/calculator/mouse all-in-ones.

In any event, it takes me longer to select a keyboard and a mouse then buying a new computer. Right now, we have 5 computers running at home with 7 keyboards and 8 mice. I use two keyboards. One is a Mac and the other a Logitech. One on the desk, the other on a sliding drawer below. Big mouse used at home, mini in brief case for laptop and another at the office. And on and on and on. My son hates every one of my combos (as everything else) and my wife has returned every mouse and keyboard that I ever bought for her (just like most of her birthday and Christmas gifts)
post #136 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by jontallon View Post

Instead of giving us a new keyboard that nobody really wanted, why not give us a mighty mouse with a track ball that doesn't gum up and actually allows for a consistent right click ?

Naah - that would be too useful !

Wash your hands......
post #137 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

Wash your hands......

At best, that's not a helpful suggestion. I don't understand why people say things like this, it looks like jumping to conclusions.

I wash my hands many times a day, but mighty mouse scroll ball still gums up on occasion. As such, I don't think the scroll ball was properly designed for actual use by actual people.
post #138 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by jontallon View Post

Instead of giving us a new keyboard that nobody really wanted, why not give us a mighty mouse with a track ball that doesn't gum up and actually allows for a consistent right click ?

Naah - that would be too useful !

First post and that's what you have to contribute.

Why don't you clean up your desktop or mouse pad? It has to pick up the shit from somewhere. It doesn't make it all by itself.
post #139 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by caliminius View Post

If people had proper typing skills, they probably wouldn't miss the numeric keypad so much...

I have proper typing skills. I can type up to 100 words per minute. But the wireless and wired compact keyboards and all macbook and macbook pro keyboards do not have right hand side CTRL key.

I miss it so much when I edit in VIM exactly because I have proper typing skills. You are meant to use opposite CTRL or SHIFT key from the letter that you are typing. So for example CTRL+ A is done with right CTRL and "a" of course with left pinky. On macbook you have to resort to the incorrect and unergonomic left pinky on left CTRL (since that's the only CTRL key you have) and one of the other left hand fingers on letter a. This slows you down.

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post #140 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario View Post

I have proper typing skills. I can type up to 100 words per minute. But the wireless and wired compact keyboards and all macbook and macbook pro keyboards do not have right hand side CTRL key.

I miss it so much when I edit in VIM exactly because I have proper typing skills. You are meant to use opposite CTRL or SHIFT key from the letter that you are typing. So for example CTRL+ A is done with right CTRL and "a" of course with left pinky. On macbook you have to resort to the incorrect and unergonomic left pinky on left CTRL (since that's the only CTRL key you have) and one of the other left hand fingers on letter a. This slows you down.

Careful. There are a number of PC keyboards that only have the Control key on the one side.
post #141 of 155
yeah like everyone else i wanted a wireless keyboard with the numpad.

the apple bluetooth keyboard is just gorgeous.
post #142 of 155
this is what i want to know, they incorperated the home, end, pg up, pg down, and forward delete buttons by using the fn key and the direction arrows and the delete.. but why cant we program the keyboard to setup some of the letters to act as numbers while holding the fn key. On my HP laptop that was what i had to do since it didnt have a numpad either.

For me I like having the numpad to help memorize numbers for banking etc. slows you down too much having to use the top row numbers, but even if we could have a numpad by having to hold fn and use the letters i would be satisfied
post #143 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Careful. There are a number of PC keyboards that only have the Control key on the one side.

Why do I care about PC keyboards? How is this even relevant for the discussion.

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Mac Pro, 8 Core, 32 GB RAM, nVidia GTX 285 1 GB, 2 TB storage, 240 GB OWC Mercury Extreme SSD, 30'' Cinema Display, 27'' iMac, 24'' iMac, 17'' MBP, 13'' MBP, 32 GB iPhone 4, 64 GB iPad 3

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post #144 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

At best, that's not a helpful suggestion. I don't understand why people say things like this, it looks like jumping to conclusions.

I wash my hands many times a day, but mighty mouse scroll ball still gums up on occasion. As such, I don't think the scroll ball was properly designed for actual use by actual people.

Thank you, nor do I. Another bad example of form over function.
post #145 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario View Post

Why do I care about PC keyboards? How is this even relevant for the discussion.

In all fairness, they should work just as well on a Mac, and you get a much larger ecosystem as long as you don't mind losing out on certain features common to devices targeting the Mac market, such as the USB hub in the wired keyboards.
post #146 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario View Post

Why do I care about PC keyboards? How is this even relevant for the discussion.

Because you were talking about it:

Quote:
I miss it so much when I edit in VIM exactly because I have proper typing skills. You are meant to use opposite CTRL or SHIFT key from the letter that you are typing. So for example CTRL+ A is done with right CTRL and "a" of course with left pinky. On macbook you have to resort to the incorrect and unergonomic left pinky on left CTRL (since that's the only CTRL key you have) and one of the other left hand fingers on letter a. This slows you down.

Macs have Command keys!

PCs have Control keys.

FAH
post #147 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Because you were talking about it:

Macs have Command keys!

PCs have Control keys.

FAH

?

I guess that explains why the Apple keyboards that I have also have Control keys. Even Apple software use control keys as part of a few hot key combinations. Also, for software referenced in the part you quoted, it's the control key that is used, not command, it's platform independent UNIX software.
post #148 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

?

I guess that explains why the Apple keyboards that I have also have Control keys. Even Apple software use control keys as part of a few hot key combinations. Also, for software referenced in the part you quoted, it's the control key that is used, not command, it's platform independent UNIX software.

He never said anything about the (Apple) Command key. It has never been called as the Control key.

He was complaining that the Mac keyboard didn't have a Control key on the right side. To which i simply informed him that there were PC keyboards that also only had a single Control key as well.
post #149 of 155
Apple has really lost the plot with this one. A couple of weeks ago I bought a 20" iMac for my wife - and was appalled by the keyboard - it is simply TOO SMALL for any prolonged use. And then things got worse - I bought the 'refreshed' 24" model for myself and found that the keyboard was even smaller. I've just switched to the mac and my old Microsoft ergonomic keyboard, which I've had for ten years or more is about 52 cms long - Apple crams slightly fewer keys into about 42.5 cms on the old model and then reduces this by getting rid of the num pad, the home and end keys, the page up and page down keys, ultimately reducing the board to only 27 cms. Oh, yes, and we also lose the additional 7 function keys.

Smart thinking, Apple - you want to know why macs don't figure in the corporations? Rubbish keyboards could just be one of the answers - these things are not built for serious work - they are designed for people who make occasional use of a computer, not for anyone spending six or more hours a day at the keyboard.

I'm going to love it when the class action for RSI gets going and Apple has to explain just what the hell it thought it was doing.
post #150 of 155
Not sure if this helps or really if its true. I called Apple and asked a few questions about the new iMac. One question was the lack of the number pad keyboard unless bought online. I was told by the person at Apple that the larger keyboard is being phased out and the option to substitute also phased out. When, I have no idea. For that reason alone I was going to order online. A key board without the number pad? Then I started thinking, I never use the number pad on a keyboard. It just should be there, in case one day I should happen to need it. Kinda a dumb reason. My two cents is Apple is cutting corners wherever they can. No remote, smaller keybaord.
post #151 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by FerdinandPo View Post

Apple has really lost the plot with this one...
... then reduces this by getting rid of the num pad, the home and end keys, the page up and page down keys, ultimately reducing the board to only 27 cms. Oh, yes, and we also lose the additional 7 function keys.
... keyboards ... designed for people who make occasional use of a computer, not for anyone spending six or more hours a day at the keyboard. ...

I agree they have a habit of pairing good advances with almost unbelievable steps backwards in various user interface/control areas.

My Dell std issue keyboard is 44cm, my 3rd party ergo keyboard is about 45cm, all with numeric keypads that I daily make use of.

To subtract keys and jam the remainder into a smaller space seems very dubious to me. One of the things the ergo technician told me at my last corporate posting was to vary hand and arm (and seat) positions. If the keyboard is so small now, and with no ability to occasionally vary hand/arm to a keypad mode, it does strike me as more confining.

I would think that the engineers who design the computer keyboards choose to use full size, not micro keyboards for themselves (just my guess, you understand )

For me, having worked with computers for years, and continuing for years more I expect, I need my primary input interfaces to be Human centric, not micro-designer-artsy.

When did it start that 'cool' now trumps human comfort and usability?
(well, if I think back to that horrible round hockey-puck mouse of the original iMac... )

Well, I guess the only upside is it's good for a thriving third-party after-market. Though overall, a waste, as part of the purchase costs go to produce, sell and buy Apple keyboards (and mice) that many will just box up, shelve, etc. (I have a whole 'stable' of Apple mice that I just do not ever use. )

(I hope I'm not starting to repeat myself... repeat myself .... )
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post #152 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnqh View Post

I have to say I asked for this one.

The keyboard with num pad is just not ergonomical.

For the best typing position, the keyboard should be centered with the monitor. However, with the extended portion (about 7 inches), that pushes my mouse pad way to the right...

Pulling the mouse closer to normal typing hand position is worth giving up the keypad for me, too. I will be buying one of these keyboards! Yes, I'll miss the keypad once or twice a week, but for me, it's worth it.

I don't agree with everything Apple (i.e. their 3rd-party mouse support could use some work), but I like this product. As for people that might buy a new system without realizing they're getting the small keyboard -- Best Buy has the small keyboards plain as day on their demo systems, and the Apple web site seems pretty clear to me that the default is the narrow keyboard, and that it's a free option to get the wide keyboard. I just don't see a down-side to this new product release.
post #153 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by FerdinandPo View Post

Apple has really lost the plot with this one. A couple of weeks ago I bought a 20" iMac for my wife - and was appalled by the keyboard - it is simply TOO SMALL for any prolonged use. And then things got worse - I bought the 'refreshed' 24" model for myself and found that the keyboard was even smaller. I've just switched to the mac and my old Microsoft ergonomic keyboard, which I've had for ten years or more is about 52 cms long - Apple crams slightly fewer keys into about 42.5 cms on the old model and then reduces this by getting rid of the num pad, the home and end keys, the page up and page down keys, ultimately reducing the board to only 27 cms. Oh, yes, and we also lose the additional 7 function keys.

Smart thinking, Apple - you want to know why macs don't figure in the corporations? Rubbish keyboards could just be one of the answers - these things are not built for serious work - they are designed for people who make occasional use of a computer, not for anyone spending six or more hours a day at the keyboard.

I'm going to love it when the class action for RSI gets going and Apple has to explain just what the hell it thought it was doing.

Typing for six hours? That's because PCs don't have iLife for automatically recognizing your bosses' face during telecons, iMail for automatically replying to emails, and iKnow for answering questions in a conversational manner. Next time you're doing "serious" work, you need to think outside of the box.

Seriously, though, I've never been a numberpad type of person, so this compact keyboard seems pretty useful to me, especially with limited desk space. I use a laptop keyboard at work and I've never had a need for a number pad. But I know that my Dad uses a number pad all the time for doing some old school ordering of parts.
post #154 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofino View Post

Best. Keyboard. Ever.

200 bucks well spent.

You're so lucky dude.. I'm getting that one too!
post #155 of 155
I asked in the store the other day, "If you want a numeric keypad on your keyboard do you need to order on the web or do you swap out the keyboard here or what?"

The woman didn't know, said she could find out, wandered off, never told me. My two year old needed the bathroom so I couldn't stay to ask someone else.

What's the story?


I wonder how many people don't realize they have the option when they purchase.
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