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Apple introduces compact wired keyboard with new iMacs - Page 3

post #81 of 155
3/3/09 at 1:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxman View Post

You and all your whining friends here are such babies it is unbelievable. For no extra money you can choose the keyboard with a numeric keypad. What's the problem? The reason Apple does not choose it as default option is because most people don't make use of the keypad. If you remember when SJ introduced the alu wireless keyboard he said that what users value is their desktop - the real one, not the virtual one. I have no reason to doubt that. Adding 6" of distance between the keyboard and the mouse is inefficient and wasteful if you aren't going to use it. Its all very simple.

Apple gives you less and you eat it.
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post #82 of 155
3/3/09 at 1:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

I love all the people on here making excuses for Apple's flub. A numbered keyboard should be included as the default- end of story. That's an industry standard for a desktop.

And you were appointed by whom of arbiter of 'industry standards'?
Jeez... I can't believe I got sucked into your endless pissing and moaning.
It really does get old dude.
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post #83 of 155
3/3/09 at 1:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

As usual, YMMV. I type 80wpm on the top row.
What I don't get is people who insist on being vulgar and snipe-ish simply because a company doesn't tailor its options specifically to them.
Must be such a sad life.

Actually very happy and use my iMac for much, much more than just a typewriter.
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post #84 of 155
3/3/09 at 1:34pm
It's a choice with an asterisk *- You don't get a choice to walk into any store and leave with the keyboard you want.
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post #85 of 155
3/3/09 at 1:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

And you were appointed by whom of arbiter of 'industry standards'?
.

I'm not- what other desktop give a crippled keyboard -out of store?
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post #86 of 155
3/3/09 at 1:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I wish there was an option for no keyboard or mouse because I don't much care for any of the Apple input devices.

Yes! For a while there I thought I was the only one who thought Apple's input devices are complete garbage.

I'm typing this on a MS Natural Keyboard Elite (with the PS/2 to USB adapter -- archaic I know, but it works) and using a Logitech TrackMan Wheel mouse. Been making very heavy use of this combination for about 12 years now and no carpal tunnel symptoms to speak of yet (knocking on my compressed particleboard desk).

The only time I use the Apple keyboard is when I need to use the key combos when booting up. And even for that my wrists hurt. And don't even mention the mighty mouse. That immediately went in the recycling bin (what a waste).

Please Apple, if you're not going to give a rats ass about ergonomics, at least give the option to forgo the keyboard and mouse for environmental reasons. Even if there's no discount (which there should be).
It's a world full of people
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It's a world full of people
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post #87 of 155
3/3/09 at 1:41pm
I hardly ever use my desktop machine so I don't care what wired keyboard Apple provides. I do nearly all my work on my laptop, where I love my multitouch trackpad. I do have a Mac Mini with wireless keyboard and mouse connected to my TV in the lounge though. If you've ever tried to use a wireless mouse on your knee or the arm rest of a sofa though you'll know how absolutely essential it is for Apple to bring out a Bluetooth trackpad.
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post #88 of 155
3/3/09 at 1:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

A spreadsheet by definition has columns and rows of numbers!! That's right- numbers!

Wrong - a spreadsheet by definition has columns and rows of cells - whose contents could be numbers - but do not have to be - could be text - or formulas - or graphics - etc
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post #89 of 155
3/3/09 at 2:06pm
Once you go Mac, you never go back.

Hmmm. Not true. Had an iMac G3 350 and went back to Windows. Apple is not so perfect. If they make enough blunders, I will return to Windows again. I have every intention of running Windows 7 on my iMac via Boot Camp. That is more of a for-sure than an upgrade to Snow Leopard.
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post #90 of 155
3/3/09 at 2:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by auxio View Post

... I'm typing this on a MS Natural Keyboard Elite (with the PS/2 to USB adapter -- archaic I know, but it works) and using a Logitech TrackMan Wheel mouse. ...

I used to use both of these, but not for some time now.

You might want to actually try the new keyboards for a while though, they really are great once you get used to the different action. I started by being forced to use one on my work computer when the first Apple aluminium keyboards came out as I had a new machine at the time, and eventually I decided they were better than the old ones.

The other day I had to use an older Apple wireless keyboard and it was so hard to get used to the idea that each and every finger press had to be exaggerated by a centimetre or more to even register! I could hardly type at all on this kind now. The Apple aluminium keyboards are the most solid feeling ones I have ever used (and I've used everything back to a Vic 20), but the travel is about a fifth or so of that on a typical keyboard. I find my typing speed, which was already impressive, has been improved substantially.

The Wireless Apple Aluminium Keyboard (which initially I never thought I would buy (because I like "clicky" keyboards and I like the number pad), ... is simply the very best keyboard I have ever used or owned by a country mile. Not because I like Apple, and not because I drink the kool-aide, just because it is.
In Windows, a window can be a document, it can be an application, or it can be a window that contains other documents or applications. Theres just no consistency. Its just a big grab bag of monkey...
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In Windows, a window can be a document, it can be an application, or it can be a window that contains other documents or applications. Theres just no consistency. Its just a big grab bag of monkey...
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post #91 of 155
3/3/09 at 2:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhowarth View Post

I hardly ever use my desktop machine so I don't care what wired keyboard Apple provides. I do nearly all my work on my laptop, where I love my multitouch trackpad. I do have a Mac Mini with wireless keyboard and mouse connected to my TV in the lounge though. If you've ever tried to use a wireless mouse on your knee or the arm rest of a sofa though you'll know how absolutely essential it is for Apple to bring out a Bluetooth trackpad.

Have you tried a wireless trackball? I love mine - been using trakballs since around 1989 or so.
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post #92 of 155
3/3/09 at 2:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

The market for Apple products are consumers and education, but the main use of the number pad is in business which they don't sell to as much. In an education setting, it's also important to have more desk space so the smaller keyboard makes sense that way also.

The average consumer "doesn't do numbers" and doesn't even track their finances in any appreciable way by using financial software or doing spreadsheets. Hopefully the longer keyboard will remain an option, but there are many good reasons for leaving it out from Apple's point of view.

You're totally wrong about that. Macs are very popular with small businesses, even ones that aren't graphic design studios. Many accountants and other number crunchers use Macs. There are not good reasons for Apple to leave out the number pad as the default - make it an option and that's fine.

But it's not just the number pad that's missing. The full-size arrow keys are much better, plus you have a right delete key that's in a great place. I can't imagine doing anything without the right delete key (I don't use laptops).

There are going to be a lot of unhappy people who order iMacs from Amazon or elsewhere (perhaps even in an apple Store) that get them home and find their keyboard's been decapitated.
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post #93 of 155
3/3/09 at 2:28pm
Nice keyboard.

Touchscreens anytime now Apple.
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post #94 of 155
3/3/09 at 2:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I wish there was an option for no keyboard or mouse because I don't much care for any of the Apple input devices.

I've usually avoided first party input devices of any brand, though the mouse for my DEC was a rebrand of a Logitech that I liked.

But I really don't have a problem with this, most consumers don't seem to do much work of substance with Macs anyway, they're bought more for home use than work.

I do touch typing for letters, but I am very bad with the number row, I can touch type numbers using the number pad. As I really don't like apple's key actuation on their desktop keyboards, I just store the keyboard.

Anyway, is there really a call for wireless with number pad? I used the wireless for my home theater system, rarely need numbers for that, but for some reason, it really eats batteries.
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post #95 of 155
3/3/09 at 3:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

You're totally delusional. The whole world that's has been receiving standard number blocked keyboards is wrong- and you're right.

What part of, 'but can be swapped out for one that does include a numeric keypad at no additional cost when ordering online' do you not understand? I also bet that an Apple Store would have a few of the keyboards with number pad stocked in case somebody preferred that.
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post #96 of 155
3/3/09 at 3:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

It's a choice with an asterisk *- You don't get a choice to walk into any store and leave with the keyboard you want.

How much are you willing to bet that in an Apple Store you would not be able to get the number pad keyboard instead?
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post #97 of 155
3/3/09 at 3:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

I'm not- what other desktop give a crippled keyboard -out of store?

Who says that the majority of customers care about a number pad? You imply because the vast majority of desktop computers ship with one means that the majority of people actually want/need them. If the industry standard is that a computer has Windows installed, I couldn't care less about industry standards.
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post #98 of 155
3/3/09 at 3:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Have you ever written a spreadsheet?? Obviously not- to have written such an asinine post.

I have written spreadsheets but they don't scale well when you have a lot of data. They are also harder to automate. A spreadsheet usually is a dead end for that data, easy to input a limited amount of data, hard to handle if you actually want get the data out of it again. Have you ever handled matrices approaching millions of elements?
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post #99 of 155
3/3/09 at 3:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by noirdesir View Post

How much are you willing to bet that in an Apple Store you would not be able to get the number pad keyboard instead?

Have you ever even ordered or bought anything from Apple before?
That would be considered a configure-to-order/custom order- it's not included in the standard box and harder to return, if I may add.
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post #100 of 155
3/3/09 at 3:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilgto64 View Post

Wrong - a spreadsheet by definition has columns and rows of cells - whose contents could be numbers - but do not have to be - could be text - or formulas - or graphics - etc

WRONG -Financial spreadsheet usually have numbers . Have you ever even created one? Formulas (which reference cells which have usually have numbers in them) are usually in additional columns which give results from the data in those rows and columns filled with numbers
Why am I even bothering?
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post #101 of 155
3/3/09 at 4:04pm
I purchased an iMac from an Apple Store. The sales guy asked me at the last moment if I wanted the Bluetooth? It was only fifty bucks more and I said sure. I made the mistake of not looking at it first. I get home to find out there is no numeric pad. So now if I want that option, it is going to cost me another fifty bucks to get the full-sized USB keyboard. My Bluetooth MIghty Mouse has been replaced once. The scroll wheel died. Same has happened to my second Mighty Mouse, which is gathering dust in a drawer. I am using an old Microsoft Mouse and it gives me some issues. I would use the numeric pad imbedded mouse feature some of the time, if I had the full-sized keyboard. Used it for quite some time back in the Windows 98/Me days. There is always something that will get under my skin with Apple. Guess the same is true with Microsoft as well. I would be stunned if Dell ever started to do dumb things with their keyboards though.
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post #102 of 155
3/3/09 at 4:04pm
You can blame me. The extended keyboard is a beast. I have the white plastic extended keyboard and love it. Can't stand the large aluminum, don't need the wifi. I'd been saying this option has been missing since the day they intro'd the other two.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KindredMac View Post

Who honestly asked for this keyboard option?

No one.

While a lot of us have been asking for a wireless keyboard with full extended functions.
sheesh
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post #103 of 155
3/3/09 at 4:05pm
Why is apple dicking around with a non-functional keyboard and us? This keyboard selection is abismal. It should be full size and wireless! In typical apple fashion: apple gives you useful feature and takes it away. And then calls it an added bonus. This fiasco is remeniscent of FW400.
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post #104 of 155
3/3/09 at 4:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hillstones View Post

Those were the old days...the Mac shipped with the mouse, but you had the option of buying the keyboard you desired. Most purchased the still amazing Apple Extended Keyboard II, which I still have on my classic LC 575.

Best. Keyboard. Ever.

200 bucks well spent.
Tofino
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Tofino
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post #105 of 155
3/3/09 at 4:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kung Fu Guy View Post

Why is apple dicking around with a non-functional keyboard and us? This keyboard selection is abismal. It should be full size and wireless! In typical apple fashion: apple gives you useful feature and takes it away. And then calls it an added bonus. This fiasco is remeniscent of FW400.

I know and why was our choice to get a wireless keyboard with a numberpad taken away to begin with?
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post #106 of 155
3/3/09 at 4:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by WPLJ42 View Post

I purchased an iMac from an Apple Store. The sales guy asked me at the last moment if I wanted the Bluetooth? It was only fifty bucks more and I said sure. I made the mistake of not looking at it first. I get home to find out there is no numeric pad. So now if I want that option, it is going to cost me another fifty bucks to get the full-sized USB keyboard. My Bluetooth MIghty Mouse has been replaced once. The scroll wheel died. Same has happened to my second Mighty Mouse, which is gathering dust in a drawer. I am using an old Microsoft Mouse and it gives me some issues. I would use the numeric pad imbedded mouse feature some of the time, if I had the full-sized keyboard. Used it for quite some time back in the Windows 98/Me days. There is always something that will get under my skin with Apple. Guess the same is true with Microsoft as well. I would be stunned if Dell ever started to do dumb things with their keyboards though.

The Mighty Mouse sucks big time. They should have left that piece of crap out of the box and dropped the price by $50. Now that makes more sense than this keyboard B.S.
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post #107 of 155
3/3/09 at 4:23pm
Education? Any student or child who starts out with that keyboard is starting out at a disadvantage.
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post #108 of 155
3/3/09 at 4:39pm
I like my MB trackpad, when I use iMac I hate the mouse.
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post #109 of 155
3/3/09 at 4:44pm
teckstud, learning to touch type with and without the numeric pad are both worthwhile for students. As a programmer, effective use of the number row is invaluable when coding. It is way quicker than moving my hands to the numeric pad. So much so that I have a keyboard without the numeric pad specifically for this task. This keyboard is ~ $150 and is actually pretty common in the corporate environment. It has been around for years and is offered through most ergonomic oriented catalogs.



I can understand your adamance about what should be Apple's default hardware config. But you also seem to have an unhealthy level of outright hatred for the concept that some people don't need or use the numeric pad.

We're not out to get you, you know.

(And yes I recognize that many, perhaps even most, users would prefer a numeric pad.)
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post #110 of 155
3/3/09 at 4:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jontallon View Post

Instead of giving us a new keyboard that nobody really wanted, why not give us a mighty mouse with a track ball that doesn't gum up and actually allows for a consistent right click ?
Naah - that would be too useful !

Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

The Mighty Mouse sucks big time. They should have left that piece of crap out of the box and dropped the price by $50. Now that makes more sense than this keyboard B.S.

I agree that the so-called Mighty mouse is a chore to use. The right-click is hard to activate, and the left-side alternate button keeps getting activated too easily! Yuk! I even called Apple support to complain about how right click must be done deliberately on the very front edge - they sent a new one, but same problem.

For me, Numeric Keypad and the dedicated Page Up/Down are essential, And the Real Delete (tm) key! Yah Baby!
I use alpha-side numbers sometimes, but when I have a bunch of numeric data, or even just a phone or cc number, I prefer the numeric keypad.

The option I'd like is: No Apple Keyboard, No Apple Mouse - let me save the $ and apply to a Logitech Wave keyboard and mouse... just me though.
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post #111 of 155
3/3/09 at 4:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Young View Post

The option I'd like is: No Apple Keyboard, No Apple Mouse - let me save the $ and apply to a Logitech Wave keyboard and mouse... just me though.

Me too. I always buy 3rd party mice anyway.

But Apple's motivation for shipping at least a minimal keyboard and mouse in every box is understandable, especially with all in one computers like the iMac. Out of the box it is guaranteed to not be relegated to paperweight status for lack of input devices.
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post #112 of 155
3/3/09 at 4:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Good- then stay in your minority. You've probably never even entered a number unless you're typing in the date.

Are you sitting at supermarket checkout counter, or what is your obsession with entering numbers? Those are about the only people I know that can touch-type on a number pad. And typing by sight on number pad is slower than touch-typing numbers on a normal keyboard.

Most people that deal with numbers and computers are either in business of calculating numbers or of processing numbers that automated systems have measured or gathered in other ways.
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post #113 of 155
3/3/09 at 4:54pm
Poll: how many of those who prefer to use a number pad are able to touch-type [numbers]?
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post #114 of 155
3/3/09 at 4:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

We're not out to get you, you know.

(And yes I recognize that many, perhaps even most, users would prefer a numeric pad.)

Thanks I appreciate your reasonableness.
All I'm saying is that from a financial/ business point of view, a number pad is almost mandatory. You simply can enter numbers and do other things faster. It's a bad call to give out less - especially for something that, even if you don't use, has the potential to assist someone who can.
But whatever- I would almost rather not have either keyboard or mouse and let them $100 charge less.
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post #115 of 155
3/3/09 at 5:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

Me too. I always buy 3rd party mice anyway.

But Apple's motivation for shipping at least a minimal keyboard and mouse in every box is understandable, especially with all in one computers like the iMac. Out of the box it is guaranteed to not be relegated to paperweight status for lack of input devices.

Valid point, it is understandable, since they do want the thing to work right away...
But there my Mighty Mouse sits over on the shelf, gathering dust (i really should put it in a box, or something, since I get sad every time I happen to look at its glistening white...

But how I wish their keyboards and mice were more ergonomic and usable.
Jeesh, Apple - aren't you supposed to be the more-user-friendly computer company? Then shouldn't the primary human input devices of keyboard and mouse be more user friendly? And not looking like they are designed just to win an art museum award?

One of the activities I do when setting up a user with a new Mac and its no-so-mighty mouse, is to remind them that any USB mouse can work - and that they may find a logitech or other brand mouse to be more usable.

The other thing I do is to recommend the purchase of USBOverdrive software, as I have found it to give much smoother mouse action and movement control (on any mouse) than the standard Apple control panel/system pref.
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post #116 of 155
3/3/09 at 5:15pm
Steve's left! The whole company's falling apart!
How is a raven like a writers desk?
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post #117 of 155
3/3/09 at 5:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

You can't be that clueless! Why else would we be protesting?

A poll would probably favor your side of this debate. AI forum users are probably more avid numeric pad users than the general computing populace. But either way, your distain for the suggestion is illogical and baffling.

The mere existence of protesting is meaningless on the internet. There's a petition for just about anything and everything nowadays. No matter which subject you choose there are always adamant people ranting endlessly.

The assertion, that the numeric pad should be included in the default config, is quite supportable on reasoned arguments. You might convince more people of your views by taking that approach.


Would it surprise you to know that I type ampersands, asterisks, parenthesis, (and a many more symbols) 10 times as frequently as numerals? The percentage of users who don't use the numeric pad at all maybe larger than you think. Everyone from email-only-grandma to hard-core code-monkeys can fall into this category.

So while Apple's bundling choices may have been unwise, they aren't as ludicrous as you seem to imply.
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post #118 of 155
3/3/09 at 5:52pm
I don't see the point of this for 95% of people. As long as they keep the numeric keyboard the same price I am happy. I guess the number pad is the thing of the past but people still use it but I guess not enough.
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post #119 of 155
3/3/09 at 5:56pm
I bought one of these suckers tonight. The store I went to, Southpoint in NC, only had versions with WIRELESS keyboards for $50 more, $1549. I got it anyway since I had a wired kb and Logitech mouse at home. Anyone want the wireless keyboard and wireless mighty mouse for $50 (for both)? Unwrapped. This is the AI forums special. Please PM if interested.



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post #120 of 155
3/3/09 at 5:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by luke1robb View Post

I think this move to get rid of the num. pad and decrease the width of the keyboard is a good sign that Apple might be prepping a multi-touch glass trackpad for their desktop line. By have it be smaller, one could attach (via usb) a trackpad to either end of the keyboard (lefty or righty).

Don't blow this off, I think its gonna happen in some manner. Multi-touch is still non-existent on their desktop line, a glaring signal to me.

Thoughts?

Yes! I think we're on the same wavelength here. While I'm not sure I see this release as anticipating other new keyboards - and quite frankly I'm not sure I see where they were going with this at all, except perhaps to further irk keyboard aficionados - I do think you've hinted at a very interesting market place. There is definitely a lot of community interest in a multi-touch-enabled keyboard. They've got all the technology available, so it's really somewhat of a no-brainer at this point. Personally, I'd like to see them create a bluetooth version of this concept. Even at the increased power requirements, the idea of totally eliminate the mouse (for casual users) certainly has some appeal. Now, if they released said version, replacing the keypad on the wireless version with a MT trackpad, they'd have a 4 keyboard lineup. While that's a bit extraneous on some levels, that product line-up would actually make more sense: two wired, two wireless; two compact, two multi-functional. I think I may see where they're going with this now...
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