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post #121 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevielee View Post

So say you. But even some of the biggest names in 'capitalism' are saying that this evolving financial debacle is going to be much, much the worst that we have EVER experienced.
You are talking like this round of 'greed gone wild' is already over and therefor are directly and quantitatively comparable to anything that occurred in the past. That is a huge error on your part. We are just in the opening act, of a multi-act economic drama. We haven't even gotten to intermission and already you're submitting your reviews, and historical comparatives. Just wait until act II, scene IV - when foundational institution like one of our last economic firewalls: the FDIC, are completely breached and busted down (happening as we speak).

Yes, and most of them are saying that because they're begging for a government bailout and think its necessary to do so in order to argue their financial worth.
post #122 of 173
No one can really give a prophetic prediction on how bad it will get because no one can see the future. At worst economists have estimated it could get much worse if the proper steps are not taken, at the same time economists have said we can recover from this recession.

This orgy of greed is largely over. The institutions who most benefited from it are all bankrupt and are either out of business or on the edge of solvency. Its unlikely these big troubled banks will continue. They will go out of business, their management will be changed and things will be very different over the next couple of years.

The truth is that the FDIC has not had to pay a great deal of money to cover deposits and saving accounts. They have been very proactive and successful in seizing failed banks and selling them to healthy banks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevielee View Post

So say you. But even some of the biggest names in 'capitalism' are saying that this evolving financial debacle is going to be much, much the worst that we have EVER experienced.
You are talking like this round of 'greed gone wild' is already over and therefor are directly and quantitatively comparable to anything that occurred in the past. That is a huge error on your part. We are just in the opening act, of a multi-act economic drama. We haven't even gotten to intermission and already you're submitting your reviews, and historical comparatives. Just wait until act II, scene IV - when foundational institution like one of our last economic firewalls: the FDIC, are completely breached and busted down (happening as we speak).
post #123 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halvri View Post

Yes, and most of them are saying that because they're begging for a government bailout and think its necessary to do so in order to argue their financial worth.


Really? You really believe what you just posted?

The worldwide CDS and derivatives market WAS recently valued at $683.7 trillion dollars - more than 10 times the GDP of every country on earth. All this funny money was created out of thin, or non-existent air. Try blowing that ballon back up to even a fraction of what they claimed it was worth before the big, bad reality of accelerating deflation took hold.

http://www.twnside.org.sg/title2/fin...ce20081106.htm

The "Robber Barons" of the early 20th century were rank amateurs in relation to this new breed of global corporate Ponzi-ist.

And all of the capitalist kings horse, and all of the kings richest men, will never, ever re-inflated the - something from absolutely nothing - ballon again.

The Global Financial, and Economic structure is Mucho F****D. No candy coating will change that FACT.....
post #124 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

No one can really give a prophetic prediction on how bad it will get because no one can see the future. At worst economists have estimated it could get much worse if the proper steps are not taken, at the same time economists have said we can recover from this recession.

This orgy of greed is largely over. The institutions who most benefited from it are all bankrupt and are either out of business or on the edge of solvency. Its unlikely these big troubled banks will continue. They will go out of business, their management will be changed and things will be very different over the next couple of years.

The truth is that the FDIC has not had to pay a great deal of money to cover deposits and saving accounts. They have been very proactive and successful in seizing failed banks and selling them to healthy banks.

You say that "no one can really give prophetic prediction", but then you go and do just that.

And then you also go on to state the mindblowingly inaccurate assumption that "the orgy of greed is largely over". Are you for real? Are you purposely not paying any attention to what IS actually taking place on Wall Street and the Banking Sector??? Sorrry to be the one to break it to you, but the is "orgy of greed" not over by a long shot. It's just shifted into pillaging our government coffers (Bailouts..AKA Corporate Wellfare) until they are bled dry of every last public penny and are left in the very same position as the banks are in right now - completely INSOLVENT.

Finally, the actual "truth" is that the FDIC itself could be INSOLVENT by the end of this year. I'm not pulling this out of thin air...this is the evolving and potentially devastating economic reality. Do the math. There isn't enough money in the entire Treasury to pay down even a fraction of what is owed by the US Banks and Financial institutions,. And that's not even taking into account the financial inter-connectivity of the rest of the Worlds rapidly imploding economies.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=alsJZqIFuN3k

Where are you getting your pollyanna perspectives from? Surely not from any reality based sources...
post #125 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevielee View Post

And all of the capitalist kings horse, and all of the kings richest men, will never, ever re-inflated the - something from absolutely nothing - ballon again.

What are you babbling on about, Tyler Durden?

"Kings horse"?

Do you mean "king's" and "horses"? Or are you talking about lots of kings owning one horse. What are the horses about, anyway?

And where does a "ballon" come in? Are you really talking about architecture or are you talking about "Balloons"? And where do balloons fit in to this odd little ditty?

The harder you try to sound clever, the more psyTARD you sound.

Please shut up.
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post #126 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevielee View Post

You say that "no one can really give prophetic prediction", but then you go and do just that.

I said no one can accurately predict how bad it will get. To predict that more banks will fail is pretty well known and a fairly easy prediction to make.

Quote:
And then you go on to state the mindblowingly inaccurate assumption that "the orgy of greed is largely over". Are you for real? It's not over by a long shot. It's just shifted into hosing our government coffers until they are in the same position as the banks are now - INSOLVENT.

Our government filling in for lost economic productivity. The money the government invests is helping people who have lost jobs and helping to keep more companies from failing and causing people to loose jobs.

Quote:
Finally, the actual "truth" is that the FDIC itself could be INSOLVENT by the end of this years. I'm not pulling this out of thin air...this is the upcoming reality. Do the math. there isn't enough money in the entire Treasury to pay down even a fraction of what is owed by the Banks and Financial institutions.

That was an overly alarmist article that fuels your overly alarmist sentiments. The FDIC will never be insolvent. It may use up its fund that comes from banks. If that happens it gains money from the US treasury.

No one knows if the FDIC will use up its fund, all of this is hypothetical based on the number of banks that may fail and cannot be sold to healthy banks.


Quote:
Where are you getting your pollyanna perspectives from? Surely not from any reality based sources...

You are looking at worst case scenarios and predicting that is what is going to happen. I'm simply saying that is the worst case scenario and the future more than likely will not happen that way.
post #127 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacMad View Post

What are you babbling on about, Tyler Durden?

"Kings horse"?

Do you mean "king's" and "horses"? Or are you talking about lots of kings owning one horse. What are the horses about, anyway?

And where does a "ballon" come in? Are you really talking about architecture or are you talking about "Balloons"? And where do balloons fit in to this odd little ditty?

The harder you try to sound clever, the more psyTARD you sound.

Please shut up.

I absolutely love that I P*** Apple "tards" like you off..

Psystar, Psystar, Psy.......
post #128 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevielee View Post

Really? You really believe what you just posted?

The worldwide CDS and derivatives market WAS recently valued at $683.7 trillion dollars - more than 10 times the GDP of every country on earth. All this funny money was created out of thin, or non-existent air. Try blowing that ballon back up to even a fraction of what they claimed it was worth before the big, bad reality of accelerating deflation took hold.

http://www.twnside.org.sg/title2/fin...ce20081106.htm

The "Robber Barons" of the early 20th century were rank amateurs in relation to this new breed of global corporate Ponzi-ist.

And all of the capitalist kings horse, and all of the kings richest men, will never, ever re-inflated the - something from absolutely nothing - ballon again.

The Global Financial, and Economic structure is Mucho F****D. No candy coating will change that FACT.....

My point was that "the biggest names" in capitalism, which, to me, sounded like you were talking about large corporations, principally banks, are simply moaning because they want government bailouts, whether they need them or not.

Also, I have no idea who mentioned the 20's, because I only did so in passing. Regardless, though, as I and several others have said, the ultimate problem is deregulation. If the markets are properly and efficiently regulated, such schemes are substantially less likely to occur (though, I think you grossly exaggerate their current existence).

Now, what exactly is your plan to fix this? After all, if you can complain, it must surely be because you have some idea how to fix this problem, not just because you like to launch off self-serving prognostications. Cause Communism won't fix this problem and full-on socialism would just make everything worse.

Seriously, though, I'm truly excited to hear your doom and gloom scenarios and how some previously failed economic system can fix them.
post #129 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I said no one can accurately predict how bad it will get. To predict that more banks will fail is pretty well known and a fairly easy prediction to make.



Our government filling in for lost economic productivity. The money the government invests is helping people who have lost jobs and helping to keep more companies from failing and causing people to loose jobs.



That was an overly alarmist article that fuels your overly alarmist sentiments. The FDIC will never be insolvent. It may use up its fund that comes from banks. If that happens it gains money from the US treasury.

No one knows if the FDIC will use up its fund, all of this is hypothetical based on the number of banks that may fail and cannot be sold to healthy banks.




You are looking at worst case scenarios and predicting that is what is going to happen. I'm simply saying that is the worst case scenario and the future more than likely will not happen that way.


I'm looking at what IS actually happening economically. Believe what you want to believe, but you're in for one hell of a surprise..
post #130 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevielee View Post

I absolutely love that I P*** Apple "tard" like you off..

... once again you have written something that makes absolutely no sense at all. Congratulations. Are you writing in code or something?

Do you mean "an" Apple Tard? Or did you mean to write "Tards"...

... or do you mean anything at all? One wonders.
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post #131 of 173
What is happening is a deep world wide economic contraction. Recessions are actually a good economic device, its necessary to have a recession to have a healthy economy. Recessions clear out poorly performing companies and bad debt. Its like darwinism.

Our current recession is a reaction to extremely bad choices and gambles that were able to multiply and grow for too long. In one way or another those bad choices need to be dealt with and cleaned up for a healthy economy to progress.

In the long run no one knows exactly what is going to happen. You seem to be fully invested in the whole system burning down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevielee View Post

I'm looking at what IS actually happening economically. Believe what you want to believe, but you're in for one hell of a surprise..
post #132 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halvri View Post

My point was that "the biggest names" in capitalism, which, to me, sounded like you were talking about large corporations, principally banks, are simply moaning because they want government bailouts, whether they need them or not.

Also, I have no idea who mentioned the 20's, because I only did so in passing. Regardless, though, as I and several others have said, the ultimate problem is deregulation. If the markets are properly and efficiently regulated, such schemes are substantially less likely to occur (though, I think you grossly exaggerate their current existence).

Now, what exactly is your plan to fix this? After all, if you can complain, it must surely be because you have some idea how to fix this problem, not just because you like to launch off self-serving prognostications. Cause Communism won't fix this problem and full-on socialism would just make everything worse.

Seriously, though, I'm truly excited to hear your doom and gloom scenarios and how some previously failed economic system can fix them.

Ah, yes. Always, always resort to the Big C word when all else fails.

My "doom and gloom scenarios" as you call them, aren't really "scenarios" at all. There are facts that are happening on the ground right now - as I write this.
I can understand the reluctance to face the worst of it, but denial of the obvious is what got us into this financial mess in the first place.

Pick up any major business magazine, newspapers, and what I'm saying here is pretty much in synch with what they are saying - with the exception of CNBC, that is.

Jon Stewart is making very funny hay of CNBC's"cheerleading" reporting that the economy was going to turn around very soon, and that now was a good time to "get back into the market".

High, late capitalism, as we know it is over. Where do we go from here? I really don't know. But i do know that in the near term, it's going to be next to impossible to try and pry free what's left of the economy, from the death-grip clutches of the failed corporate oligarchy. We are going to have to fight for everything for here on.
post #133 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacMad View Post

... once again you have written something that makes absolutely no sense at all. Congratulations. Are you writing in code or something?

Do you mean "an" Apple Tard? Or did you mean to write "Tards"...

... or do you mean anything at all? One wonders.

....and once again, you bleat on about nothing, or did you mean "something", or "some" "thing"?
I shudder to think that you may actually "wonder".

Psystar, Psystar, Psy.......
post #134 of 173
I bet you had your basement stocked with canned food and bottled water on December 31st, 1999.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevielee View Post

High, late capitalism, as we know it is over. Where do we go from here? I really don't know. But i do know that in the near term, it's going to be next to impossible to try and pry free what's left of the economy, from the death-grip clutches of the failed corporate oligarchy. We are going to have to fight for everything for here on.
post #135 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevielee View Post

....and once again, you bleat on about nothing, or did you mean "something", or "some" "thing"?
I shudder to think that you may actually "wonder".

Psystar, Psystar, Psy.......

I am bleating on about your inability to write a line that makes sense. "I shudder to think"... there you go again with the clichés.

Your entire posts are about nothing. You understand copyright issues about as well as you do economics. Is it fun living in your nuclear bunker somewhere? I think the canned peaches you're eating might have gone off.
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post #136 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

What is happening is a deep world wide economic contraction. Recessions are actually a good economic device, its necessary to have a recession to have a healthy economy. Recessions clear out poorly performing companies and bad debt. Its like darwinism.

Our current recession is a reaction to extremely bad choices and gambles that were able to multiply and grow for too long. In one way or another those bad choices need to be dealt with and cleaned up for a healthy economy to progress.

In the long run no one knows exactly what is going to happen. You seem to be fully invested in the whole system burning down.


Recessions like this one are also a good way to "clear out" the US Treasury.

You act like this is all a natural, and understandable phenomenon. Just another turn in the overall cycle of capitalism. All in a days work..

If authentic "darwinism" were actually in play here, the entire financial 'system' would have completely collapsed in September of last year.

Somehow, I get the feeling that you haven't felt any major personal effects of this tanking economy. Your analysis seems abstract, distant, and detached from real consequences .

How about all the people who didn't make bad "choices", but still suffer by losing the equity in their homes, or their retirement savings.? How do you calmly explain to them that this recession (Depression?), is a "good economic device", that is "necessary" for a "healthy economy" in some far off "future"?

Marie Antoinette has nothing over on you...
post #137 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Just what in the world does that have to do with the discussion?

Lots of people can't afford to buy 10 carat diamond rings, either. Does that mean it should be legal to steal diamonds from deBeers?

Apple has a business plan and seems to be doing quite well. They don't need to justify their prices to you or to anyone else except the shareholders. And the shareholders have done quite well over the past 5 years.

In any event, the fact that Apple's products are too expensive for some people isn't justification for stealing their intellectual property.



I'll tell you what - you go open a business book and learn the difference between revenue, turnover, income, and profit and then come back. Maybe someone will then have a reason to take you seriously. Until then, you're a waste of electrons. Someone who doesn't know the difference between revenue and profit has no business telling a successful multibillion dollar company how it should be run.

"Just what in the world does that have to do with the discussion?"

Simple, people want something for nothing and now it's even harder to sell a premium product over something that barely works. Psystar is in effect allowing theft, but Apple is in a more difficult situation now that the economy is in the crapper and that more and more people are shunning Vista. They are buying PCs and netbooks and hacking them illegally to run Mac OSX. That should tell you that people want a Mac, but they don't want to pay for it. Until Apple either, makes something affordable on the same field as Psystar, or makes the ecosystem so closed that that it would be impossible to hack a generic PC to run OSX, they will continue to do this. This was the can of worms it opened when it went X86. They knew it, that's why they milked the PPC platform as long as they could. Today with the rumors of a top secret netbook in the works, would be their answer to Psystar and all the people who make and sell hackintoshes. Make them irrelevant.

You are looking at this the same way the record companies looked at Napster. It was out and out theft, and it was illegal, but even after they were shut down, stealing music was the norm. Until iTunes made buying music easy and affordable. Apple has a double edged sword. They created a huge buzz with the iPod and the iPhone. They made people who either never heard of Apple or hated them, want their products. Most of them bought Macs, a lot of them shunned them until they heard Apple went X86 and figured out how to hack the dev discs. The rest was history. Psystar is backed by a lot of "John Does" with deep pockets. Why? Because they saw the halo effect the iPod and iPhone had and the cash it generated. Meanwhile their horse they backed dropped dead at the gate with Vista, or Project "Mohave" or whatever piece of excrement it's called. So now you are seeing a showdown between some powerful entities. Why else would it go secret? What so secret about hacking the OS to run on a PC?
All the info is available on several websites and they're not shut down by Apple legal? Why? I mean who has the money to bankroll Psystar's Lawyers? They sure don't. Apple knows this and is digging away. By the latter part of the year all of this will come to light and you will see which computer manufacters would stoop so low as to try to steal OSX and use a small company to test Apple's legal rights.
post #138 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacMad View Post

I am bleating on about your inability to write a line that makes sense. "I shudder to think"... there you go again with the clichés.

Your entire posts are about nothing. You understand copyright issues about as well as you do economics. Is it fun living in your nuclear bunker somewhere? I think the canned peaches you're eating might have gone off.


So why do you continue to respond to "nothing"? Must be something!

From one hack to another: I got "shudder to think" the same place you got your ..."nuclear bunker", and "canned peaches" cliches.

Psystar, Psystar, Psy......
post #139 of 173
"Nuclear bunker" isn't a cliche. Nor is "canned peaches".
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post #140 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacMad View Post

"Nuclear bunker" isn't a cliche. Nor is "canned peaches".

Ya they are..especially in the context you used them in. More importantly, that little smiley thing that you appropriated for the end of your....whatever, IS definitely a "cliche".

Psystar, Psystar, Psy.......
post #141 of 173
Of the roughly 260 million computers sold in 2008, 11 million sold were netbooks. Netbooks have not had a big effect on the overall computer market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HammerofTruth View Post

Simple, people want something for nothing and now it's even harder to sell a premium product over something that barely works. Psystar is in effect allowing theft, but Apple is in a more difficult situation now that the economy is in the crapper and that more and more people are shunning Vista. They are buying PCs and netbooks and hacking them illegally to run Mac OSX. That should tell you that people want a Mac, but they don't want to pay for it.
post #142 of 173
Okay, you are thick. Truly stupid. I will leave you to your chanting.

Ps. You have a computer and so probably have editing tools for text. (that's a hint to use the spelling and grammar checkers and, if you're bold, the dictionary too... go on, experiment with it)

Toodlepip.
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post #143 of 173
Sorry, TenoBell, my last post was obviously for StevieWonderBoy.
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post #144 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevielee View Post

You act like this is all a natural, and understandable phenomenon. Just another turn in the overall cycle of capitalism. All in a days work.

It is a natural and understandable phenomenon if you understand how economics works. Recessions always happen.

Quote:
If authentic "darwinism" were actually in play here, the entire financial 'system' would have completely collapsed in September of last year.

Darwinism doesn't mean the entire financial system needs to collapse anymore than the entire ecological system needs to collapse simply because a large number of animal species goes extinct.

Quote:
Somehow, I get the feeling that you haven't felt any major personal effects of this tanking economy. Your analysis seems abstract, distant, and detached from real consequences.

In fact I have, my industry has been effected and I've been working less than I did last year.

Quote:
How about all the people who didn't make bad "choices", but still suffer by losing the equity in their homes, or their retirement savings.? How do you calmly explain to them that this recession (Depression?), is a "good economic device", that is "necessary" for a "healthy economy" in some far off "future"?

Its unfortunate that some people are badly effected in economic downturns through no fault of their own. That does not change the fact that recessions are apart of the natural economic cycle. They always happen, we always recover, and people always rebuild.
post #145 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacMad View Post

Sorry, TenoBell, my last post was obviously for StevieWonderBoy.


Oppsie-doodle MadMac. Did you make a boo-boo?
Looks like you could use a little post editing yourself.

"StevieWonderBoy"? Did you go and make that big "cliched" word up all by your MadMac self?
You are a clever one aren't you?

Psystar. Psystar, Psy.....
post #146 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevielee View Post

So say you. But even some of the biggest names in 'capitalism' are saying that this evolving financial debacle is going to be much, much the worst that we have EVER experienced.

I call BS.

Who are these "biggest names"?

Warren Buffet is still buying. Bernanke says that we have problems, but he's never made statements like that.

Just who is claiming that this is going to be "much much the worst that we have EVER experienced"? (that is, worse than the 1930s, for example)

Oh, and btw, if capitalism is ended, what is it going to be replaced with? Virtually every successful country in the world has been capitalist to a greater or lesser extent. The European economies are based on capitalism. Russia became more successful as it allowed more elements of capitalism to take over. As it has moved away from capitalism, it has become less successful. Even China became successful only after it started to allow capitalism to enter.
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post #147 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

It is a natural and understandable phenomenon if you understand how economics works. Recessions always happen.
Darwinism doesn't mean the entire financial system needs to collapse anymore than the entire ecological system needs to collapse simply because a large number of animal species goes extinct.

In fact I have, my industry has been effected and I've been working less than I did last year.

Its unfortunate that some people are badly effected in economic downturns through no fault of their own. That does not change the fact that recessions are apart of the natural economic cycle. They always happen, we always recover, and people always rebuild.

So the giant, global Ponzi scam that has been afoot for the last decade or so is to be understood as "how economics works"?

Ah, but you didn't say 'conditional' Darwinsim (oxymoronic). It's quite a leap to assign the natural science of evolution to a man made, economic system that does not even recognize nature as dominant, or relevant. In fact, it it pitting in most cases as directly at odds with it.
But in the meantime ( the next few years), grin and bear folks because it's just another "natural economic cycle". Nothing to worry about. We'll all be just fine in the long run.

Oh my!
post #148 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Just who is claiming that this is going to be "much much the worst that we have EVER experienced"? (that is, worse than the 1930s, for example)

I'll claim it! All US markets will fall to zero on July 4th, which will provoke a planned invasion in the US. Basically like Red Dawn, except change up the Cubans for Chinese and there will be no Patrick Swayze to save the day.
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post #149 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by HammerofTruth View Post

Simple, people want something for nothing and now it's even harder to sell a premium product over something that barely works. Psystar is in effect allowing theft, but Apple is in a more difficult situation now that the economy is in the crapper and that more and more people are shunning Vista.

And, yet, Apple's profits continue to grow. And up until the current quarter, even sales continued to grow.

Or maybe you've forgotten that Apple's sales continued to grow throughout most of 2008 - even after the recession had already gotten pretty large.

There is absolutely no evidence that the recent couple of months are a long term trend or anything that affects Apple's future in any real way.
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post #150 of 173
Yep, I think you've got it just about right there....but you forgot to mention that like Swayze, there may also be no SJ to save the day by the 4th..
post #151 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevielee View Post

Ah, yes. Always, always resort to the Big C word when all else fails.

My "doom and gloom scenarios" as you call them, aren't really "scenarios" at all. There are facts that are happening on the ground right now - as I write this.
I can understand the reluctance to face the worst of it, but denial of the obvious is what got us into this financial mess in the first place.

Pick up any major business magazine, newspapers, and what I'm saying here is pretty much in synch with what they are saying - with the exception of CNBC, that is.

Jon Stewart is making very funny hay of CNBC's"cheerleading" reporting that the economy was going to turn around very soon, and that now was a good time to "get back into the market".

High, late capitalism, as we know it is over. Where do we go from here? I really don't know. But i do know that in the near term, it's going to be next to impossible to try and pry free what's left of the economy, from the death-grip clutches of the failed corporate oligarchy. We are going to have to fight for everything for here on.

Yes, the big C word, as you seem to be trending towards Communism being the answer, so I felt it needed to be commented on. I'm not afraid of Communism, but it simply won't work.

And as to the big financial commentators, these are people who are trained to analyze everything on a day-by-day basis and few, if any of them, have any real ability to make predictions about the future. Plus, most of them wouldn't make objective observations anyway, because they're owned by these evil corporations you hate so much. Just look at the reviews CNET gives Apple's stuff: they rate it highly, but tear it to shreds in their reviews. Why? Because their parent company is funded by Microsoft. And with all do respect, Jim Cramer was a dumbass long before Jon Stewart pointed that fact out.

I am by no means denying that the worst of this economic decline is over, but you are one of the most pessimistic people I have come across. Couple with this with the fact that you have you respect for copyright (which tells me you've never run a business) and I just don't get how you expect me to believe you have a realistic interpretation of what's going on right now.
post #152 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archipellago View Post

more waffle but just to address the last point.

The historic defence for the ridiculous hardware is that it subsidises the OS..you seem to be implying something different.


Apple has put out 6 version of OSX (from X.0 to X.5) since 2000. They sold about 2 million retail copies of each version, on average. At about $130 per copy and 12 million copies sold, that's about 1.5 Billion dollars of revenue (not profit) over a period of 9 years. It cost Apple $400 million just to buy out NeXt for the basic framework of OSX. One can safely assume that Apple did not even come close to recovering the cost to develop and support OSX, all these years, by selling retail copies of it. It's the sale of hardware (with OSX included) that covers that cost.

So does Apple make a profit by selling stand alone OSX? Yes. Only because the profit from the sale of hardware paid for most of it's developement. That would include the profit made on the Mac that the owner is now "upgrading" to a newer version of OSX. But will the profit Apple make by selling retail OSX cover the cost of the delvelopement for the next OSX? No. Apple will still need to support any future developement of the next OSX with hardware sale.

No one is saying that Apple is taking a loss by selling retail copies of OSX. Were saying that the sale of retail copies of OSX alone will not cover the cost to delvelop it and any future developement. The developement cost has to be supported with hardware sales.

And for sure the $130 cost will not cover the added cost if Apple had to support a bunch of differently configured generic PC.
post #153 of 173
The Ponzi schemes have nothing directly to do with the world economic problems. They are further evidence of the symptomatic problems that have occurred from the erosion of government oversight, deregulation did directly help lead us to our current economic problems.

I'm not sure you understand the point of Darwinism. I used the broad definition of Darwinism, the weak die off so that the strong survive and thrive. That is was recessions do to businesses. The point of all of this whether its nature or economics is for the benefit of the entire system, not for the system to collapse and die.



Quote:
Originally Posted by stevielee View Post

So the giant, global Ponzi scam that has been afoot for the last decade or so is to be understood as "how economics works"?

Ah, but you didn't say 'conditional' Darwinsim (oxymoronic). It's quite a leap to assign the natural science of evolution to a man made, economic system that does not even recognize nature as dominant, or relevant. In fact, it it pitting in most cases as directly at odds with it.
post #154 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

The Ponzi schemes have nothing directly to do with the world economic problems. They are further evidence of the symptomatic problems that have occurred from the erosion of government oversight, deregulation did directly help lead us to our current economic problems. .

While the Ponzi schemes may have had little DIRECT impact, they have had a pretty significant impact. The current crisis is, as much as anything, a crisis of confidence. The ease with which these Ponzi schemes were perpetrated and maintained had a huge impact on investors' confidence in the system.
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post #155 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

I call BS.

Who are these "biggest names"?

Warren Buffet is still buying. Bernanke says that we have problems, but he's never made statements like that.

Just who is claiming that this is going to be "much much the worst that we have EVER experienced"? (that is, worse than the 1930s, for example)

Oh, and btw, if capitalism is ended, what is it going to be replaced with? Virtually every successful country in the world has been capitalist to a greater or lesser extent. The European economies are based on capitalism. Russia became more successful as it allowed more elements of capitalism to take over. As it has moved away from capitalism, it has become less successful. Even China became successful only after it started to allow capitalism to enter.

Warren Buffet hedge fund has lost nearly 70% of it's value from last year. He has to continue buying (gambling) hoping to stave off his own bankruptcy. Bernanke is NEVER going to make a statement like that if he want to stay on as head of the Fed. Besides, his Fed helped fuel this entire fiasco - going back to Greenspan.

And to your calling me on BS, I start with Greenpan's predecessor: Paul Volker.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090220/...conomy_volcker
Then we go to George Soros
Then a comparative graph of 1929 and now:
http://socialize.morningstar.com/New...4/2627563.aspx
http://www.smartmoney.com/Investing/...at-Depression/
p://www.businessinsider.com/henry-blodget-great-crash-of-2008-now-worse-than-great-crash-of-1929-2009-3

etc, etc, etc.

Whatever replaces this current form of 'Capitalism', will be some kind of hybrid of capitalism, and socialism...
post #156 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by cathul View Post

I did exactly that. I booted from an boot-132 disk and changed the disks when the boot-prompt of cameleon appeared. from that moment on i only used the retail leopard disk i bought at amazon for the full retail price (beside the Mac Mini that i bought for real work). I didn't change any piece of software on that retail disk or on the installed system and therefor i didn't violate any copyright restrictions. I didn't change the software, i only used a bootloader that is capable of booting the retail disk of OSX without touching any files on the dvd or harddisk. I do that just for the fun of it, just to see what's possible.

Do i support Psystar? Hell no, but i cannot stand anyone saying you need to hack OSX to install it on a PC while in fact you only need an appropriate bootloader.

So, copyright violations may not apply if Psystar doesn't need to "hack" OSX to run on their machines, but uses an appropriate (and perfectly legal) bootloader.

Over here in germany Apple would've lost the case if it was this way, just because you don't need a reseller contract with Apple to resell their software over here, so i don't really care what the courts decision on this case will be as it doesn't apply to germany at all. Apple would've to sue them in germany, too to settle down the case for germany as well.
Btw., there is a germany company selling PCs together with OSX, too and they didn't get sued until now.

Copyright protection on software is a little different than other IP in that there must be some provision for making copies of it. That's because most software must be copied into a HD and memory before you can use it. Without this provision, you would be violating Copyright laws every time you load the software on to your computer. Thus the copy of the software in your HD is also protected by Copyright laws. Whether that copy of OSX you loaded on to a PC, with the help of the "boot-123" disk, is altered in such a way that it violates any Copyright laws, I don't know.

There is a provision in Copyright laws that allows for an "adaptive" copy of a software. Whereby you are allowed to "adapt" a copyrighted software, that is in your HD, to make it work on your machine. But the catch is that you can not sell or give away this "adaptive" copy when you sell your machine. Even if you include a copy of the original software. It (the "adaptive" copy) must be destroyed once you give up ownership of the original software or the machine it's on. Unless you get permission from the owner of the Copyrighted software that it was "derived" from. Apple will most likely not care if you sell a Mac with an "adaptive" version of OSX on it. But Apple doesn't have to give you permission (or grant you a license) to sell a PC with an "adaptive" version of OSX on it.

Now the only way Psysar can stay in business is if they sell PC's with OSX already loaded on it. Since they can't sell any PC with OSX on it (regardless of how they got it to load) without violating some part of Copyright laws, they will be out of business soon enough.
post #157 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevielee View Post

Warren Buffet hedge fund has lost nearly 70% of it's value from last year. He has to continue buying (gambling) hoping to stave off his own bankruptcy. Bernanke is NEVER going to make a statement like that if he want to stay on as head of the Fed. Besides, his Fed helped fuel this entire fiasco - going back to Greenspan.

And to your calling me on BS, I start with Greenpan's predecessor: Paul Volker.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090220/...conomy_volcker
Then we go to George Soros
Then a comparative graph of 1929 and now:
http://socialize.morningstar.com/New...4/2627563.aspx
http://www.smartmoney.com/Investing/...at-Depression/
p://www.businessinsider.com/henry-blodget-great-crash-of-2008-now-worse-than-great-crash-of-1929-2009-3

etc, etc, etc.

Whatever replaces this current form of 'Capitalism', will be some kind of hybrid of capitalism, and socialism...

Hmm....

I don't see anything in any of those which supports your statement that the biggest names in economics claim that this recession is going to be worse than anything we've ever seen. You made it up.

You're dreaming if you think Buffet is in any danger of bankruptcy. You'll note that he's extremely well known for extraordinarily low levels of debt. His funds could drop by 90% from the current level and he STILL wouldn't be in danger of bankruptcy.

As for the rest, you can show that AS OF TODAY, the market fell faster than the first months of the great depression. How does it follow that the rest of this recession will continue to fare worse? By the mid-30s, the indexes had dropped 89%. Care to point to a single expert who says that this recession will be significantly worse than that? After all, that is what you claimed. There's not a single one who claimed anything even remotely close to that.

Or maybe Henry Blodgett is 'the biggest names in finance'. ROTFLMAO.

Why don't you stick to a topic you know something about? It's clearly not economics.
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post #158 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by cathul View Post

I did exactly that. I booted from an boot-132 disk and changed the disks when the boot-prompt of cameleon appeared. from that moment on i only used the retail leopard disk i bought at amazon for the full retail price (beside the Mac Mini that i bought for real work). I didn't change any piece of software on that retail disk or on the installed system and therefor i didn't violate any copyright restrictions. I didn't change the software, i only used a bootloader that is capable of booting the retail disk of OSX without touching any files on the dvd or harddisk. I do that just for the fun of it, just to see what's possible.

Then you didn't boot from the OS X disk, did you?

You used something which bypassed the startup software on the disk, in clear violation of DMCA.

You lose.
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post #159 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archipellago View Post

44% of their revenue?? do you mean turnover (income) or profit??

If you don't know what it means why are you even discussing it?

Quote:
items with an ASP of $1000 must contribute more to turnover than ipods at $199.

And more stupid!


Quote:
just being objective...sorry it offends you.

I am not offended. Maybe a little irritated.
You are being far from objective.
I don't believe that you are sorry at all.
post #160 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Hmm....

I don't see anything in any of those which supports your statement that the biggest names in economics claim that this recession is going to be worse than anything we've ever seen. You made it up.

You're dreaming if you think Buffet is in any danger of bankruptcy. You'll note that he's extremely well known for extraordinarily low levels of debt. His funds could drop by 90% from the current level and he STILL wouldn't be in danger of bankruptcy.

As for the rest, you can show that AS OF TODAY, the market fell faster than the first months of the great depression. How does it follow that the rest of this recession will continue to fare worse? By the mid-30s, the indexes had dropped 89%. Care to point to a single expert who says that this recession will be significantly worse than that? After all, that is what you claimed. There's not a single one who claimed anything even remotely close to that.

Or maybe Henry Blodgett is 'the biggest names in finance'. ROTFLMAO.

Why don't you stick to a topic you know something about? It's clearly not economics.


The "indexes" have dropped nearly 55% per cent since October 9, 2007, when the Dow closed on a high of 14,164. "AS OF TODAY" that index is at 6,547. That dramatic decline happened in just 16 short months. And it's still going down several hundred points a week, with no bottom in sight. At this pace, and comparing it with the 1929 timeline, we could very well hit 75- 85% in overall declines in the next 12-16 months - far faster than it took back the 30"s. But hey, "I just making this all that up" according to you. The indexes are only playing dead right now. It's going to bounce back any day now...really it is. Mr Buffet said it would...

After all the major bank finally are nationalized by the government this spring or summer, along with close to 40% of all mortgages being underwater, or when the official unemployment rate goes well above 15% (really over 25% in pre- 1980's calculations), or the Fed's non-stop printing presses eventually cause unsustainable hyper-inflation, then will you "free market" stalwarts finally get the fact that we are indeed seriously f***ed?

And you are telling me to stick to a topic I know something about..like you have any kind of a clue?
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