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Dow Jones claims confirmation of Apple netbook - Page 4

post #121 of 189
3/10/09 at 3:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murphster View Post

What are you talking about?

I'm talking about consumer sales. Enterprise sales are totally different. I spent years at a large enterprise software company and though I was not in sales, I'm familiar with the process.

By "flooding the zone" I simply meant having an excessive number of price points for basically the same product.

If you can find any technical or usability justification for four consumer editions of Vista, you must know something I don't. The feature sets are completely arbitrary.
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post #122 of 189
3/10/09 at 3:21pm
To my mind, a cheap and low spec laptop is just a cheap and low spec laptop, not a new category of device. I think many (non-gaming) customers are realising that they don't get much ROI from their PC purchases and this economy has focused peoples' minds a bit. So they are just going for cheap, manufacturers are engaged in a race to the bottom in terms of profits and there's nothing here for Apple when they are selling macbooks like hot cakes.

Many of the most important software concepts were invented in the 70s and forgotten in the 80s.

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Many of the most important software concepts were invented in the 70s and forgotten in the 80s.

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post #123 of 189
3/10/09 at 3:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alonso Perez View Post

I'm talking about consumer sales. Enterprise sales are totally different. I spent years at a large enterprise software company and though I was not in sales, I'm familiar with the process.

By "flooding the zone" I simply meant having an excessive number of price points for basically the same product.

If you can find any technical or usability justification for four consumer editions of Vista, you must know something I don't. The feature sets are completely arbitrary.

That is something I fully agree with you on. It is all about price and little to do with features.

But I would argue that is still a solid practice, it is one that is used in consumer items all the time. How many different TV's do Samsung sell? Are they really all that different? Somebody goes into a store to buy the $999 TV they saw advertised on TV and end up walking out with the $1399 TV they saw in the shop.

Are you really saying Steve Jobs would just sell them the $999 TV and be happy?

It is a standard way of selling and is designed to extract the most amount of cash from customers. As a business Microsoft are doing the right thing and I am confused as to why anybody would think it was anything but.

After all comparing the price of OSX to Windows is odd, Windows is really the only product that Microsoft sell into the consumer PC space.

Surely Apple are doing exactly the same thing with having different versions of Mac's? If I walk into an Apple store today to buy a $599 Mac Mini do you not think that Apple actually want me to walk out with a Mac Pro?

To the OP, I still do not understand why four different versions of Windows is confusing to consumers when 8 different versions of a MacBook are not! After all, just like the different Windows versions they are only very slightly different and yet all have different prices.

In fact, thinking about that why are we even having this ridiculous discussion?
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post #124 of 189
3/10/09 at 3:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murphster View Post

See the kindle is a different product, it is a reading device and not an input device. The form factor is perfect for something that does not require much interactive (bar turning a page).

People do not buy netbooks to hold them up in front of their face and read things off, they buy netbooks to take their most used apps on the road with them easily.

...

My whole point is that it just does not make any logical sense as a product, it does not really meet a demand or a need. Good products always meet a need. A traditional netbook from Apple will meet a need because there are lots of people buying netbooks and many of them might well buy one running OSX.

Well I think it can make sense provided that reasonable input is available. The iPhone keyboard in landscape mode is not so bad for replying to e-mail; a keyboard twice as big would actually be fairly practical.

So far as I can tell, the only need netbooks meet is price, rather than size. Apple is not interested in bottom feeding (or hasn't been so far), and frankly I don't think their business model, and especially their US-based R&D, can be supported by a cheap netbook. Expensive ultraportables with tiny keyboards and screens have been around for some time, but have always been a niche, or a Japan thing.

The only thing that's changed is that now they are cheap. So the "need" is price. If Apple wants to reach into lower price segments of the market their easiest bet is to lower the price of the plastic MacBook even further, which should be easy enough given current component costs.

The pad concept which you dismiss is interesting. Yes, it would be more of a reader / viewer / browser device than an input device, but it would replace books and magazines while also giving you computer features such as browsing, e-mail, and document viewing and minor editing. It would also be a portable HD video player and a GPS.

All in the size of a thinnish soft-cover book. It would be a fantastic travel companion, shopping assistant, map, news reader, etc. And with bluetooth keyboard support it would also be a reasonable input device for actual work.

Is there a market for it? I think so. I could be wrong but so could you. I have no idea how you can be so sure, since nothing like it has yet appeared.
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post #125 of 189
3/10/09 at 3:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alonso Perez View Post

Sorry but that dog won't hunt. Microsoft has four (4), consumer editions of vista:

1. Starter
2. Home Basic
3. Home Premium
4. Home Ultimate

And I'm not counting "Business", which is not an enterprise level product either, since that would be the appropriately named Vista Enterprise edition, not to be confused with any of the various server editions.

I can certainly accept that a separate consumer edition, for the reasons you outlined, makes some sense. However, Microsoft has four, and it is quite confusing to consumers. For example, many people who get Premium understand by the name that they got the best one. Others imagine that Starter is designed to help first-time users, rather than being a crippled version. So it goes.

While its nice to show all of the SKU's, what is their current availability? taking in account the geoographical limitations, and other aspects that have already been released to the public.

Ultimately there are one or two options to the typical consumer, and most will purchase what came with their box.

Household: MacBook, iPad 16gb wifi, iPad 64gb wifi, iPad Mini 32gb, iPhone 4S 32gb, iPhone 32gb, iPod Touch 4th gen x2, iPod touch 16gb gen 2, iPod nano 16gb gen 5 x2, iPod nano gen 3 8gb, iPod...

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Household: MacBook, iPad 16gb wifi, iPad 64gb wifi, iPad Mini 32gb, iPhone 4S 32gb, iPhone 32gb, iPod Touch 4th gen x2, iPod touch 16gb gen 2, iPod nano 16gb gen 5 x2, iPod nano gen 3 8gb, iPod...

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post #126 of 189
3/10/09 at 3:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jenkman91 View Post

Here comes round two.....

I am not saying that Apple is not making a netbook. I am just stating that one should not talk about a product unless its been proven a fact

Following your logic would put all Apple blogging sites like this one out of business...
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post #127 of 189
3/10/09 at 3:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murphster View Post

After all comparing the price of OSX to Windows is odd, Windows is really the only product that Microsoft sell into the consumer PC space.

To the OP, I still do not understand why four different versions of Windows is confusing to consumers when 8 different versions of a MacBook are not! After all, just like the different Windows versions they are only very slightly different and yet all have different prices.

In fact, thinking about that why are we even having this ridiculous discussion?

Microsoft sells lots of products into the consumer PC space. Like Office Home edition, Flight Simulator and other games, mice, keyboards, etc.

It's confusing because there is no need for it. The MacBooks, I would argue, are more than "slightly" different. Things like screen size, memory, and CPU/GPU, are basic characteristics.

Come on, even my dad, who's 80, knows the difference between a 13" screen and 15", or a 17", or can plainly see that the MacBook Air is super thin. These are genuine differences.

Apple does price points, of course they do. And yes, Steve and his people do set them up so that you are always tempted to spend more money than you intended.

But you get actual hardware for that, not some flipped bits in the same piece of software.

As to why we bother discussing this, I have no idea!
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post #128 of 189
3/10/09 at 3:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murphster View Post


But I would argue that is still a solid practice, it is one that is used in consumer items all the time. How many different TV's do Samsung sell? Are they really all that different? Somebody goes into a store to buy the $999 TV they saw advertised on TV and end up walking out with the $1399 TV they saw in the shop.

Do you think the strategy always works? When I bought my HDTV, I went for the $1399 version and walked out with the $999 version. Not enough in the $1399 version to justify the price. And it was confusing. So I went with the lower price.

Simplicity in pricing works.
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post #129 of 189
3/10/09 at 3:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alonso Perez View Post

So far as I can tell, the only need netbooks meet is price, rather than size. Apple is not interested in bottom feeding (or hasn't been so far), and frankly I don't think their business model, and especially their US-based R&D, can be supported by a cheap netbook. Expensive ultraportables with tiny keyboards and screens have been around for some time, but have always been a niche, or a Japan thing.

The only thing that's changed is that now they are cheap. So the "need" is price. If Apple wants to reach into lower price segments of the market their easiest bet is to lower the price of the plastic MacBook even further, which should be easy enough given current component costs..

I think that it is not so much that they are cheap now, it is more that they only now specced enough to be seen as a credible substitute for a laptop and at the same time have reached a price point in which people would consider buying them.

There is an argument that some of them are too cheap, I would agree with that. Do many people buy them because they are so cheap? yes, of course many do.

But when I think of netbook I do not think of price, i think of size and functionality and I am not alone in that.

I am actually in the process of considering a netbook and not being in a rush am looking at my options. Everything I am looking at is AU $600 plus and range from the Dell Mini 9 (16Gig SSD, 2GB RAM) to the top MSI Wind at AU $1000 (great machine btw). While yes there are many being sold because they are $300, there is still a large market for the higher end models. I actually think this is going to be the growing market for all laptop sales in the future.

I think it is a change in direction for laptop sales. LCD's have come down so much in price that you can buy one for your desk very cheaply, projectors are cheap as chips. There is no longer a need to have big screens on your laptops and the market is deciding it agrees. I know plenty of business people who are trading in their laptops for netbooks.

With a keyboard 93% the size of a full size one then really there is nothing stopping the 9 or 10" netbook from overtaking 15" laptop sales within 2 years.

I honestly think Apple screwed up somewhere by believing thin and large is the future. Thin is okay but small is much better.
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post #130 of 189
3/10/09 at 4:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorotea View Post

Do you think the strategy always works? When I bought my HDTV, I went for the $1399 version and walked out with the $999 version. Not enough in the $1399 version to justify the price. And it was confusing. So I went with the lower price.

Simplicity in pricing works.

Rarely happens and a risk worth taking. You would be surprised how many people spend up to their budget once they have already decided what it is going to be. Even if something cheaper comes along.

Anyway, as someone rightly said. You buy a PC from a store and it comes bundled with an OEM copy of Windows home. No confusion there.

Anyway, this is my last post on this silly subject. We will continue once Apple have released an enterprise edition of OS11 and maybe a couple of home editions too.
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post #131 of 189
3/10/09 at 4:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

, and actually contributes to Apple's profitability.


How do you know that? Last I checked they don't breakout the numbers on the Air.
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post #132 of 189
3/10/09 at 4:25pm
Because Apple's notebook profits continues to rise. Do you have any reason to believe a $2000 notebook is not profitable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by steviet02 View Post

How do you know that? Last I checked they don't breakout the numbers on the Air.
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post #133 of 189
3/10/09 at 4:32pm
Current sales do not all support netbooks being the trend you predict.

Smartphones are projected to sell 198 million units this year.
Notebooks are projected to sell 155 million units this year.
Netbooks are projected to sell 20 million units this year.

Smartphones and notebooks have the largest growth and best revenues in the industry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Murphster View Post

With a keyboard 93% the size of a full size one then really there is nothing stopping the 9 or 10" netbook from overtaking 15" laptop sales within 2 years.

I honestly think Apple screwed up somewhere by believing thin and large is the future. Thin is okay but small is much better.
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post #134 of 189
3/10/09 at 4:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Because Apple's notebook profits continues to rise. Do you have any reason to believe a $2000 notebook is not profitable?

It depends on how many they sell, it's such a different device they need to sell a high amount to be profitable. When you factor in the engineering costs that go into a device like that I would be surprised if that unit is profitable for Apple at this point.

And you are citing overall laptop numbers, I believe the Macbook sells better than the Macbook Pro and that sells better than the Air,by a long stretch.
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post #135 of 189
3/10/09 at 4:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Current sales do not all support netbooks being the trend you predict.

Smartphones are projected to sell 198 million units this year.
Notebooks are projected to sell 155 million units this year.
Netbooks are projected to sell 20 million units this year.

Smartphones and notebooks have the largest growth and best revenues in the industry.

If we always looked back on last year to work out what will happen next year then we would be now discussing Apple's new touch screen electronic calculator.

Maybe 2 years was a touch to soon, the point is the only difference between a 15" notebook and a high end netbook is screen size. Keeping Apple out of the equation the pricing is similar, the specs are similar. There seems to be a real shift towards smaller screen sizes by consumers. There is no reason not to think that we will see 10" screen becomes the biggest selling size of notebook computers.
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post #136 of 189
3/10/09 at 4:46pm
Well that is all certainly speculation on your point. We know that Apple is only willing to support profitable products, Apple has improved and updated the Air. We know Apple's notebook revenues have only increased since the introduction of the Air, that leaves no reason to assume the Air is unprofitable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steviet02 View Post

It depends on how many they sell, it's such a different device they need to sell a high amount to be profitable. When you factor in the engineering costs that go into a device like that I would be surprised if that unit is profitable for Apple at this point.

And you are citing overall laptop numbers, I believe the Macbook sells better than the Macbook Pro and that sells better than the Air,by a long stretch.
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post #137 of 189
3/10/09 at 4:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncbill View Post

Not an apples to apples comparison.

A tower is not the same as a small form-factor (sff) PC (Mini is sff)

Go price a sff PC and you'll find it is more expensive than the Mini.

Yes, I'm sure nothing's a valid comparison. I mean, what could possibly compare to something that has an Apple logo on it? It would totally trump everything, performance wise and price wise, right?

I have a better idea. How about YOU go to Newegg and build a SFF, and then come back.
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post #138 of 189
3/10/09 at 4:50pm
I didn't post last years number, those numbers are projected for 2009.

You miss on the fact that there are new netbook prototypes with larger screens. No I see absolutely no evidence that most people want 10" netbooks, with tiny keys and trackpads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Murphster View Post

If we always looked back on last year to work out what will happen next year then we would be now discussing Apple's new touch screen electronic calculator.

Maybe 2 years was a touch to soon, the point is the only difference between a 15" notebook and a high end netbook is screen size. Keeping Apple out of the equation the pricing is similar, the specs are similar. There seems to be a real shift towards smaller screen sizes by consumers. There is no reason not to think that we will see 10" screen becomes the biggest selling size of notebook computers.
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post #139 of 189
3/10/09 at 5:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murphster View Post

There is no longer a need to have big screens on your laptops and the market is deciding it agrees. I know plenty of business people who are trading in their laptops for netbooks.

With a keyboard 93% the size of a full size one then really there is nothing stopping the 9 or 10" netbook from overtaking 15" laptop sales within 2 years.

I honestly think Apple screwed up somewhere by believing thin and large is the future. Thin is okay but small is much better.

Murphster left, but for those of you who agree with him, could somebody explain what the advantage is of a 10" screen? I mean the MBA is roughly the size of a manila folder or envelope. Any business person carries business documents in folders like that.

Where, exactly, does the MBA not fit that a 10" netbook does? It sure fits in a briefcase or even a small backpack. What are new storage spot you gaining?

Honestly I see no upside at all to the 10" screen size. Too big for a coat pocket and yet small in terms of screen real estate. All I can see is that they are cheap.

The same for the 93% keyboard. Is saving 7% of keyboard size so incredibly important it justifies the cramped keys? Again, all I see is cheap here. I see no other benefit.
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post #140 of 189
3/10/09 at 5:25pm
Of course Apple's going to deliver something that runs OS X and has roughly an 8" screen or so.
You only need look at their recent actions.

Sarari 4- Tabs in the title bar preserving what 7 vertical pixels. My 24" doesn't need that extra vertical space but a 7-8" screen would.

Snow Leopard QT Player- Again ...transport controls and excessive border GONE.

Text Processing - Autocomplete and Autocorrection perfect for a virtual keyboard. Data Dectors for tapping dates and other bits of text and turning them into events and stored data.

Airport Express to MobileMe connection- Hello McFly! This isn't a huge feature for someone carrying around a laptop with a 200GB HDD but if you've got a tablet with a tiny 32GB SSD drive in it you need to leverage data sitting back at home. AE/Time Capsule with MobileMe "back to my Mac" was the starters pistol going off.

Multi-touch - four finger gestures coming and leveraging Cocoa Touch.

Tiny Keyboard- Didn't anyone wonder why Apple shrank the keyboard down so small? Could this keyboard be called "portable" ?





I'd be shocked if Apple DIDN'T deliver a small portable device. With MobileMe and iWork.com becoming more integral components to Apple's SAAS strategy the mobile tablet is going to be key.

Don't give me that crap about iPhone either. The engineering complexity of a phone is lightyears beyond the engineering complexity of a mobile tablet. The phone has to sip power or your end user is going to be pissed. You have more latitude for power and cooling in a MID or Tablet device.

This tablet could be based on ARM Cortex processing and PowerVR SGX graphics. Why not? It only really needs to run your typical lighter weight apps. My guess is that WWDC this year brings an Xcode that allows you to effectively target ARM for your more basic apps. Voila.

Another question. What's Apple doing with all of this NAND they're purchasing?

Why is Apple buying up the world's NAND Flash Memory?

Apple introduces NAND iShortage

Apple expects the next iPhone to do well I'm sure but I'm a wee bit doubtful that they expect it to do so well they've purchased up Samsung's inventory until April of this year.
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post #141 of 189
3/10/09 at 5:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alonso Perez View Post

Murphster left, but for those of you who agree with him, could somebody explain what the advantage is of a 10" screen? I mean the MBA is roughly the size of a manila folder or envelope. Any business person carries business documents in folders like that.

Where, exactly, does the MBA not fit that a 10" netbook does? It sure fits in a briefcase or even a small backpack. What are new storage spot you gaining?

Honestly I see no upside at all to the 10" screen size. Too big for a coat pocket and yet small in terms of screen real estate. All I can see is that they are cheap.

The same for the 93% keyboard. Is saving 7% of keyboard size so incredibly important it justifies the cramped keys? Again, all I see is cheap here. I see no other benefit.

Next time you are on a flight see if you can see someone using a MBA and compare to someone using a netbook. Then you will understand why thin is not small.

*By the way as a rule most business travelers fly economy, especially now. Business class seems to be reserved for public officials.

I have a 15" MBP that I never take with me traveling anymore, waste of time. I much prefer my 12" Dell and even that is too big really, I would love something a bit smaller.

Battery life is a killer for me too, after 18 months I don't seem to get 2 hours out of my MBP. My Dell which is a few months older still gives me 4.

There are netbooks on the market that promise 9 hours of battery life. You see a smaller screen makes a huge amount of difference to the battery life.

Footprint is the most important aspect to anybody who used their notebook on the go, this is why netbooks are flying out of the shops. Not just for travelling, just imagine sitting in a coffee shop with a 10" netbook. They fit into smaller bags, are far more robust that the more flimsy MBA, components do not get as hot as they have more room to breathe and for some you can even have a DVD player to watch movies on while you travel.

Look at it this way, more netbooks were sold worldwide last year than the total number of notebooks that Apple sold.

Anyone who says there is not a real market for netbooks might as well say there is no market for Apple.
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post #142 of 189
3/10/09 at 5:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Of course Apple's going to deliver something that runs OS X and has roughly an 8" screen or so.
You only need look at their recent actions.

Sarari 4- Tabs in the title bar preserving what 7 vertical pixels. My 24" doesn't need that extra vertical space but a 7-8" screen would.

Snow Leopard QT Player- Again ...transport controls and excessive border GONE.

Text Processing - Autocomplete and Autocorrection perfect for a virtual keyboard. Data Dectors for tapping dates and other bits of text and turning them into events and stored data.

Airport Express to MobileM connection- Hello McFly! This isn't a huge feature for someone carrying around a laptop with a 200GB HDD but if you've got a tablet with a tiny 32GB SSD drive in it you need to leverage data sitting back at home. AE/Time Capsule with MobileMe "back to my Mac" was the starters pistol going off.

Multi-touch - four finger gestures coming and leveraging Cocoa Touch.


I'd be shocked if Apple DIDN'T deliver a small portable device. With MobileMe and iWork.com becoming more integral components to Apple's SAAS strategy the mobile tablet is going to be key.

Don't give me that crap about iPhone either. The engineering complexity of a phone is lightyears beyond the engineering complexity of a mobile tablet. The phone has to sip power or your end user is going to be pissed. You have more latitude for power and cooling in a MID or Tablet device.

This tablet could be based on ARM Cortex processing and PowerVR SGX graphics. Why not? It only really needs to run your typical lighter weight apps. My guess is that WWDC this year brings an Xcode that allows you to effectively target ARM for your more basic apps. Voila.

Great post.
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post #143 of 189
3/10/09 at 6:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Of course Apple's going to deliver something that runs OS X and has roughly an 8" screen or so.

I can agree Apple is likely to deliver more portable devices. Its difficult to say what exactly that product will be or exactly when they will deliver it. This year isn't really the best year to launch a new platform or a radically new product.


Quote:
Don't give me that crap about iPhone either. The engineering complexity of a phone is lightyears beyond the engineering complexity of a mobile tablet. The phone has to sip power or your end user is going to be pissed. You have more latitude for power and cooling in a MID or Tablet device.

From a technical standpoint this may be true. But from a real world user standpoint tablets never took off. Smartphone sales will soon surpass sales of entire PC industry.
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post #144 of 189
3/10/09 at 6:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I can agree Apple is likely to deliver more portable devices. Its difficult to say what exactly that product will be or exactly when they will deliver it. This year isn't really the best year to launch a new platform or a radically new product.

From a technical standpoint this may be true. But from a real world user standpoint tablets never took off. Smartphone sales will soon surpass sales of entire PC industry.

Well I'm certainly not expecting anything prior to Snow Leopard shipping. Though it is clear Apple is paying more and more attention to making things space efficient.

They have gotten Mini DisplayPort ratified as the standard.
They've invested 500 million dollars in LG who in addition to making some pretty solid desktop displays has a burgeoning market in touchscreens.

Smartphone sales will indeed surpass the PC market due to the portability. The PC market should embrace Netbooks but not as some cheap consolation prize for those that cannot shell out for a full featured laptop but rather for those of us who have narrow needs when we're on the road.

I'm not surprised tablets never took off. PC vendors could not wean themselves from a keyboard. I laughed when I saw tablet after tablet shipping with a full qwerty keyboard. You really want people to embrace tablet computing with a keyboard attached the the tablet?

The PC isn't where you look for breaking technology. Their so mired in their "must support legacy" pathology you get slide out keyboards on touch aware phones. Apple doesn't have a problem leading consumers to where they need to be.
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post #145 of 189
3/10/09 at 6:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Well I'm certainly not expecting anything prior to Snow Leopard shipping. Though it is clear Apple is paying more and more attention to making things space efficient.

They have gotten Mini DisplayPort ratified as the standard.
They've invested 500 million dollars in LG who in addition to making some pretty solid desktop displays has a burgeoning market in touchscreens.

Smartphone sales will indeed surpass the PC market due to the portability. The PC market should embrace Netbooks but not as some cheap consolation prize for those that cannot shell out for a full featured laptop but rather for those of us who have narrow needs when we're on the road.

I'm not surprised tablets never took off. PC vendors could not wean themselves from a keyboard. I laughed when I saw tablet after tablet shipping with a full qwerty keyboard. You really want people to embrace tablet computing with a keyboard attached the the tablet?

The PC isn't where you look for breaking technology. Their so mired in their "must support legacy" pathology you get slide out keyboards on touch aware phones. Apple doesn't have a problem leading consumers to where they need to be.

Another great post.
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post #146 of 189
3/10/09 at 6:45pm
Airplanes, battery life, and coffee shops. You are working really hard to sell the advantage of netbooks. If netbooks are really that great then they will be well accepted in the market.


But your last point in particular is stretching quite a bit to prove the future viability of netbooks.

There are some important key differences between the netbook market and Apple's notebooks. Netbook are low cost low margin products spread across several companies. Apple's notebooks are premium cost with premium margin products and all of the revenue goes to one company.

Last year 11 million netbooks were sold at an average sale price of $350 for a total of $3.85 billion in revenue.

Last year Apple sold roughly 5 million notebooks at an average sale price of around $2000 for a total of $10 billion in revenue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Murphster View Post

Look at it this way, more netbooks were sold worldwide last year than the total number of notebooks that Apple sold.

Anyone who says there is not a real market for netbooks might as well say there is no market for Apple.
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post #147 of 189
3/10/09 at 6:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Of course Apple's going to deliver something that runs OS X and has roughly an 8" screen or so.
You only need look at their recent actions.

Sarari 4- Tabs in the title bar preserving what 7 vertical pixels. My 24" doesn't need that extra vertical space but a 7-8" screen would.

Snow Leopard QT Player- Again ...transport controls and excessive border GONE.

Text Processing - Autocomplete and Autocorrection perfect for a virtual keyboard. Data Dectors for tapping dates and other bits of text and turning them into events and stored data.

Airport Express to MobileMe connection- Hello McFly! This isn't a huge feature for someone carrying around a laptop with a 200GB HDD but if you've got a tablet with a tiny 32GB SSD drive in it you need to leverage data sitting back at home. AE/Time Capsule with MobileMe "back to my Mac" was the starters pistol going off.

Multi-touch - four finger gestures coming and leveraging Cocoa Touch.

Tiny Keyboard- Didn't anyone wonder why Apple shrank the keyboard down so small? Could this keyboard be called "portable" ?





I'd be shocked if Apple DIDN'T deliver a small portable device. With MobileMe and iWork.com becoming more integral components to Apple's SAAS strategy the mobile tablet is going to be key.

Don't give me that crap about iPhone either. The engineering complexity of a phone is lightyears beyond the engineering complexity of a mobile tablet. The phone has to sip power or your end user is going to be pissed. You have more latitude for power and cooling in a MID or Tablet device.

This tablet could be based on ARM Cortex processing and PowerVR SGX graphics. Why not? It only really needs to run your typical lighter weight apps. My guess is that WWDC this year brings an Xcode that allows you to effectively target ARM for your more basic apps. Voila.

Another question. What's Apple doing with all of this NAND they're purchasing?

Why is Apple buying up the world's NAND Flash Memory?


Apple introduces NAND iShortage

Apple expects the next iPhone to do well I'm sure but I'm a wee bit doubtful that they expect it to do so well they've purchased up Samsung's inventory until April of this year.


Thank You!
That's exactly what I meant with the newer keyboard - much more portable than a typical keyboard and potentially a supplementary feature to a tablet (the combination creating a "netbook" of sorts)
that Always Innovating Touch Book idea (the name, too) could very well fit into that idea of taking a tablet and attaching a keyboard, but leaving the ability to be used independently.

I think Apple won't disappoint with the hardware

we all know they wont disappoint with the software

and I'm pretty sure they won't disappoint with the form

We all think Apple products are well made. Even in there most basic form, Apple products are still mid-range quality products. I have hope.

hmm.. i didnt think to look at the website
http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/home/index.htm
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post #148 of 189
3/10/09 at 6:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

But your last point in particular is stretching quite a bit to prove the future viability of netbooks.

There are some important key differences between the netbook market and Apple's notebooks. Netbook are low cost low margin products spread across several companies. Apple's notebooks are premium cost with premium margin products and all of the revenue goes to one company.

Last year 11 million netbooks were sold at an average sale price of $350 for a total of $3.85 billion in revenue.

Last year Apple sold roughly 5 million notebooks at an average sale price of around $2000 for a total of $10 billion in revenue.

But the point is that they have been accepted into the market. That is not even up for debate.

And I was not talking about profit margins or sell prices, it is irrelevant in the point I was making. I am not trying to justify why Apple should or should not make a netbook. I am merely pointing out that netbooks are in fact good for what they are being bought for and that many people are actually already buying them. More so than Apple notebooks.

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Airplanes, battery life, and coffee shops. You are working really hard to sell the advantage of netbooks.

I am not even sure what that is supposed to mean.

Working hard? In what way. You really do not believe that the portability and long battery life is not a reason why netbooks are popular? Of course they are key reasons why people are buying them.

The stupid thing is that the only reason why people come on here and argue against them is because Apple do not make them. The minute Apple release a netbook this forum will be full of people saying how great they are and how great Apple is for making the best one ever.

Always the same on these forums. It is very sad.
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post #149 of 189
3/10/09 at 7:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murphster View Post

You really do not believe that the portability and long battery life is not a reason why netbooks are popular? Of course they are key reasons why people are buying them.

I think it's the very low price and the portability. I do have plenty of people, guys and girls who think they are so adorable. Never really get that with my MacBook. But I can't agree it's because of a "long battery life" as both my Acer Aspire One 1/6GHz witha 4-cell battery running WinXP and MSI Wind 1.8GHz with a 6-cell battery running Mac OSx86 have dismal battery life for a laptop PC.

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The stupid thing is that the only reason why people come on here and argue against them is because Apple do not make them. The minute Apple release a netbook this forum will be full of people saying how great they are and how great Apple is for making the best one ever.

I don't think that is entirely true as stated. The physical design will be different aesthetically, structurally and, perhaps, performancely. It will also be using OS X. These are valid reasons why people will find it better than the current Linux and WinXP systems using 1G Atom CPUs on GMA950 IGPs on very, very poor displays and keyboards.

My netbooks have done what I needed them to do, but they are not, by any means, a replacement for a typical notebook. I don't see Apple getting into this market of small notebooks unless they include many features that aren't current included in today's netbook.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #150 of 189
3/10/09 at 7:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murphster View Post

But the point is that they have been accepted into the market. That is not even up for debate.

At this point netbook hype far exceeds their real sales numbers. Its still to be seen whether they actually grow to a point of significant sales.

Quote:
I am merely pointing out that netbooks are in fact good for what they are being bought for and that many people are actually already buying them. More so than Apple notebooks.

You stack the deck comparing sales of several vendors vs the sales of one vendor. Also netbooks and notebooks serve completely different uses.



Quote:
Working hard? In what way. You really do not believe that the portability and long battery life is not a reason why netbooks are popular? Of course they are key reasons why people are buying them.

Netbooks aren't as popular as the hype machine makes them out to be. Tech media likes to trumpet netbook growth. That is largely because they have gone from near zero to a small percentage of computer marketshare. 11 million out of 270 million is not that popular.

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The stupid thing is that the only reason why people come on here and argue against them is because Apple do not make them. The minute Apple release a netbook this forum will be full of people saying how great they are and how great Apple is for making the best one ever. Always the same on these forums. It is very sad.

I've never given an opinion whether Apple should or should not make a netbook. I'm simply looking at the reality of sales, revenues, and marketshare numbers. I'm sure if Apple made a netbook, it would be nothing like those from other PC vendors and it certainly would not cost $400.

Netbooks may well become more prominent player in the PC industry. I'm simply saying the sales and revenue projections clearly show today the real money is in notebooks and smartphones.
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post #151 of 189
3/10/09 at 7:19pm
My guess, if Apple does come out with a netbook/tablet, they'll screw it up somehow, either by leaving out a particular port or feature everyone has, or making it too expensive, relative to it's intended use, like the MBA.

I could see Apple maybe doing a Vaio P type device, but even then, I think Apple would charge $1000 for it.
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post #152 of 189
3/10/09 at 7:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness View Post

My guess, if Apple does come out with a netbook/tablet, they'll screw it up somehow, either by leaving out a particular port or feature everyone has, or making it too expensive, relative to it's intended use, like the MBA.

I could see Apple maybe doing a Vaio P type device, but even then, I think Apple would charge $1000 for it.

I disagree.

I think they'll create a device that will approach the Netbook category with class and aspire to be more than just a shrunken facsimile of a full sized notebook.

Some will hate it...some will love it and many will want it.

It will be marketed as a device that you simply MUST have MobileMe for.
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
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He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
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post #153 of 189
3/10/09 at 7:30pm
When the MacBook Air was introduced their were many sub-notebooks that cost just as much if not more. What notebook do you think is more appropriately priced with the same functionality of the Mac Book Air?

Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness View Post

My guess, if Apple does come out with a netbook/tablet, they'll screw it up somehow, either by leaving out a particular port or feature everyone has, or making it too expensive, relative to it's intended use, like the MBA.
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post #154 of 189
3/10/09 at 7:35pm
I hate the netbook name. It sounds like it is an ugly term for an also ran.

Think about it. Apple has this enormous netbook pressure. Apple has this Kindle pressure. Historically Jobsman starts with "who needs video" and brings out ipod video. So I would think they are testing the waters with simply a comment loose while the fanbois go ra ra ra - the "funnest" ipod ... etc. you know what i mean - rather than putting out a product and failing. guess the mac cube hurt them a lot. (Incidently I am typing this message on one - 450mhz, tiger, 768mbram - the beast still works like billy O).

That said, I am crazy about apple and its products.

So I think they would cannibalize the ipod touch and make it a touchpad or a webpad. Slightly largish screen, a dock adapter, may be a usb port or two, could act as a monitor to the mac mini, connectable to the apple projector for presentations etc.

Am I dreaming or what !!!!
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post #155 of 189
3/10/09 at 7:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

When the MacBook Air was introduced their were many sub-notebooks that cost just as much if not more. What notebook do you think is more appropriately priced with the same functionality of the Mac Book Air?

The Macbook.

It's only a whole 2 pounds heavier, but it has a DVD burner, better CPU, larger, faster HD, more ports, and same footprint.

I would think the MBA would make more since, if it was really smaller than the MB, like with an 11 or 12 inch screen, but it's just a thinner, slower MB. And with the recent aluminum MB, I see even less reason to get a MBA, other than it has a better screen than what the MB has, but I don't see that making up the $500 gap, as the MBA has a small SSD or a very slow SATA HD.

Maybe if I had money to burn, or was a fashionista, I'd be all over the MBA, but I rather have the white MB, the alu one, or a netbook.
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post #156 of 189
3/10/09 at 7:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness View Post

The Macbook.

It's only a whole 2 pounds heavier, but it has a DVD burner, better CPU, larger, faster HD, more ports, and same footprint.

I would think the MBA would make more since, if it was really smaller than the MB, like with an 11 or 12 inch screen, but it's just a thinner, slower MB. And with the recent aluminum MB, I see even less reason to get a MBA, other than it has a better screen than what the MB has, but I don't see that making up the $500 gap, as the MBA has a small SSD or a very slow SATA HD.

Maybe if I had money to burn, or was a fashionista, I'd be all over the MBA, but I rather have the white MB, the alu one, or a netbook.

But to lose 1" to 2" off the display diagonal means reducing the footprint on the x and y plane. this means that the machine can no longer be as thin as it was before as you have to store the same internal components in a smaller footprint, assuming you want to keep the same dismal battery life. Then you have an issue with the keyboard on the width, though there should be enough room on the 12" to keep the current keyboard, though you'll have to beef up the construction on the sides to make sure it's a sound design, which may add some weight.

Personally, I would like to have seen such a device made, but with a larger battery that is closer to the MacBook's weight and even using a 2.5" HDD now that the device has been made thicker, but that obviously isn't Apple market focus. As much as I liked my 12" PowerBook everything indicates that it wasn't a great seller for Apple compared to their other notebooks, and would probably be worse when you consider that screens moved from 4:3 to 16:9 ratios which makes even the 12.1" displays having more vertical height than the 13.3" displays used today. The change in Safari 4 tabs does certainly help so I can imagine that it would not be well received to have even less space to read text, though as a video player it would be great.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #157 of 189
3/10/09 at 8:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murphster View Post

The stupid thing is that the only reason why people come on here and argue against them is because Apple do not make them. The minute Apple release a netbook this forum will be full of people saying how great they are and how great Apple is for making the best one ever.

Always the same on these forums. It is very sad.

The conversation stopped making sense as soon as you presume motives. I'm not a fan of everything Apple does. I don't like their preference for selling locked phones around the World, for example, and I've said so right in this forum. I also have been critical of their environmental policies, which only recently have improved, and not enough.

But --and this is a reason I like Apple, and not the other way around--, I generally don't like cheap, loss-leader products, crappy design, knockoff "design" (such as MSI), and other aspects of the netbook phenomenon. I see it as a race to the bottom that should it spread will defund R&D in the computer industry, and lead to crappy products for many years to come.

I don't, in other words, like junk. Especially cheap junk. People are free to like junk and I sure won't hold it against them. But with so many junk suppliers, I see no need for Apple to become one more.

By the way. I use my MBA in a cafe three blocks away with 24" x 24" tables and it's not a problem.

I haven't flown with it, but I used to fly regularly with a 13.3" Sony Vaio a few years back and I managed fine. I don't see how my MBA could be worse. Sure, the angle is not ideal, but I wouldn't trade it for a smaller screen.

Apple will enter the portable computing space between the iPhone and the MBA, but hopefully they will do what they always do and look at it from every angle and come up with a unique, carefully conceived solution.

Time will tell.
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post #158 of 189
3/10/09 at 8:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness View Post

My guess, if Apple does come out with a netbook/tablet, they'll screw it up somehow, either by leaving out a particular port or feature everyone has, or making it too expensive, relative to it's intended use, like the MBA.

This is my biggest fear as well. I really want an Apple netbook, but I shudder to think of what they might force us to accept. Apple's offerings lately have been a lot of bait and switch, with a lot of hoopla over some things while conveniently forgetting to mention how many other things have been downgraded or left right out. Their only response when people complain about what is missing seems to be "you don't need that".
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post #159 of 189
3/10/09 at 8:32pm
Actually you have a good point that the differnces between the MacBook and the Air have blurred with this latest update. I think the Air is the future form factor of the MacBook.

You had a good solid point until your last sentence. Whether or not the Air is only suitable for fashionistas is your opinion. Your attempt to belittle the usefulness of the Air does not diminish the fact that to be fashionable is a billion dollar business

Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness View Post

The Macbook.

It's only a whole 2 pounds heavier, but it has a DVD burner, better CPU, larger, faster HD, more ports, and same footprint.

I would think the MBA would make more since, if it was really smaller than the MB, like with an 11 or 12 inch screen, but it's just a thinner, slower MB. And with the recent aluminum MB, I see even less reason to get a MBA, other than it has a better screen than what the MB has, but I don't see that making up the $500 gap, as the MBA has a small SSD or a very slow SATA HD.

Maybe if I had money to burn, or was a fashionista, I'd be all over the MBA, but I rather have the white MB, the alu one, or a netbook.
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post #160 of 189
3/10/09 at 8:39pm
The question comes down to the fact that if these functions were included, would those functions that have been left out significantly help sales? Machines that do include all of these functions have better sales? Or is all of this based on computer geek dreams?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsenka View Post

This is my biggest fear as well. I really want an Apple netbook, but I shudder to think of what they might force us to accept. Apple's offerings lately have been a lot of bait and switch, with a lot of hoopla over some things while conveniently forgetting to mention how many other things have been downgraded or left right out. Their only response when people complain about what is missing seems to be "you don't need that".
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