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Corporate legal scrambles to withdraw inflated Palm Pre claims

post #1 of 53
Thread Starter 
After Palm investor Roger McNamee of Elevation Partners made wildly optimistic claims about the forthcoming Palm Pre, attorneys at Palm and Elevation Partners issued a free writing prospectus 'clarifying' facts that were misstated and 'withdrawing' his more exaggerated claims.

McNamee is the managing director and co-founder of Elevation Partners, a private equity firm that invests in intellectual property and media and entertainment companies. The firm is also associated with U2 pop singer Bono (taking its name from a U2 song) and hired Apple's former CFO Fred Anderson after he left following the SEC's investigation into options backdating.

Elevation Partners invested $325 million in Palm in 2007, taking a 25% stake of the company as it struggled to find capital. That year, Palm lost over $100 million on revenues of $1.32 billion after canceling its Foleo netbook project, witnessing the collapse of PDAs, and failing to find much success in selling Palm OS devices following the spinoff of its operating system business in 2002 and the subsequent relicensing of the Palm OS from that independent group for $44 million in December 2006.

A year and a half after Elevation's initial bailout, and shortly before the announcement of the new Palm Pre (pictured below), Elevation invested another $100 million to shore the company up last December. With little steam left in Palm OS sales outside of profitless Palm Centro, delays killing the Palm Treo Pro, and intense competition from the iPhone, Elevation clearly needs to see excitement behind the Palm Pre if it ever hopes to get its nearly half a billion investment in Palm back.



It's therefore no surprise that McNamee would tout the future of the Pre. However, his comments in a Bloomberg interview went beyond optimism to bend the facts and generate such inflated hyperbole that his company and Palm were forced to release a reality check in the form of a free writing prospectus.

Minor clarifications issued

The document, filed under Securities Act Rules, first clarified a few minor overstatements about the market share of RIM's BlackBerry and Apple's iPhone. McNamee had cited 1.2% share for RIM and .9% for Apple, where the document notes that over the past two years, RIM's share is actually grew from 1.1 to 1.9%, and Apple's from 0.3% to 1.2%.

It also corrected McNamee's outlook for smartphones' share of the mobile market to reach 50% within 5 years, noting instead that "one third party industry analyst report estimates smartphone share of the U.S. mobile phone market will reach 42.0% in 2012.

Interestingly, the context of McNamee's comments was to position the Pre as less of a direct competitor to more sophisticated smartphones such as the iPhone and BlackBerry, and more as another viable contender in the ongoing market shift from feature phones to smartphones. When asked whether Palm is a rival to Blackberry, McNamee said people are "right to think of it [the Palm Pre] as a rival, but the most important change thats taking place, particularly if youre an investor or a customer, is that were going from what are known as feature phones, the old 12-key phones that just make phone calls and send texts, to smart phones."

McNamee noted that the "fantastic for corporate e-mail" RIM BlackBerry and Apple's iPhone, "a device thats fantastic for playing music or playing games," "arent really fighting each other; theyre really fighting folks like Motorola, Samsung, LG, Nokia, the people who make the old-fashioned phones." He hoped people would be "be just as excited about the Pre," without noting that it won't be fantastic for playing games like the iPhone.



Exaggerations dialed back

Beyond the few loose numbers McNamee gave off the top of his head, the real corrections his lawyers need to address related to his wilder statements, including the claim that the Palm Pre is going to be a million times well, not a million times several times faster than the iPhone and is going to run rings around them [Apple] on the web.

In response to those claims, the legal filing instead noted that "the Palm Pre is still under development and it is premature to state the speed at which the device accesses the web or the relative speed of the Palm Pre compared to the smartphone products of competitors."

McNamee's comments about the Pre's web capabilities are particularly interesting given that the new smartphone will be using the open source Web Kit rendering engine that Apple itself uses and contributes toward. If Palm suddenly makes major advancements in web browsing, those enhancements should find their way back into the code Apple uses, just as Nokia and Google have similarly contributed to the open source Web Kit project. At the same time, Palm has never demonstrated any particularly expertise in the field of web browser rendering, delegating that task to third party developers instead. Much like RIM's BlackBerry Storm, the Palm Pre will essentially be reusing the iPhone's mobile browser engine, making it dubious to claim that it will be better in any sense.

Fanciful notions backpeddled

McNamee also claimed there are aspects of the Pre that are unlike any phone youve every seen before, the Pre is the first one that is the next generation, and the result is it does a lot of things the others guys dont do. Those statements also elected a reply from his lawyers, who noted that "the Palm Pre is designed to be the first phone based on the Palm webOS platform and as a result will have different operating characteristics and features than other phones, however; the Palm Pre is still under development and it is premature to compare its full functionality with that of other phones."

While Palm hopes to release the entirely new webOS-based Pre by the end of 2009, the company earlier struggled to bring the less ambitious, Windows Mobile 6.1 Palm Treo Pro to market, missing its intended ship date of last fall and instead only launching earlier this month with Alltell; it is expected for delivery from Sprint next week. And despite referring to the Linux-based, netbook-like Foleo as a strategic product for the company, Palm gave up on that project entirely last year.

Lawyers also clarified that McNamee claims "regarding the relative development and stability of Sprints, Verizons and AT&Ts 3G networks are generalizations regarding wireless cellular network performance that may or may not be true depending on a variety of factors specific to geographic regions."



Outrageous hyperbole withdrawn

One of the most contentious claims McNamee made however, was that that not one person who bought the original iPhone will still be using an iPhone a month after its two-year anniversary, suggesting they would all defect to Palm's webOS platform. The lawyers said this was "an exaggerated prediction of consumer behavior pattern and is withdrawn."

McNamee also went out on a limb when he stated the underlying technology for Research In Motion Ltd.s BlackBerry is about 13 years old, while the technology behind the iPhone goes back almost nine years, prompting the legal reply that "estimating one specific age for the many technology components underlying any mobile phone is inherently imprecise and these statements are withdrawn."

In the case of the iPhone, while its technological lineage can be traced back over nine years of Mac OS X development and even further to NeXTSTEP from the late 80s, and by a further stretch BSD UNIX from the 1970s, the key technologies that set the iPhone OS apart from a BSD or Linux-based smartphone are its modern Core Animation and Cocoa Touch interface, its state of the art HTML 5 web browser and JavaScript engines, its brand spanking new mobile software SDK that is less than a year old, and its regular firmware updates providing enhancements to everything from its 3G mobile networking to its leading software store downloads to security advancements, international support, power management, and so on.

Apple has consistently maintained a rapid pace of iPhone operating system development that has left Palm's historical efforts with the Palm OS in the dust, and has similarly embarrassed the perhaps once annually significant update that Microsoft rolls out for Palm's Windows Mobile phones. Apple has also outpaced Google's Android in significant updates over the past two years of parallel development, making it had to imagine how the struggling Palm, kept alive only by the investment grace of Elevation Partners' millions, will manage to outpace the leader in platform development using an entirely new operating system based largely upon the Web Kit software that is funded principally by Apple.

And finally, in regard to McNamee's claim that Palms new webOS would give it an edge over competitors that are going to run out of gas way before Palm, his legal team stated "estimations of the relative useful lifespan of smartphone operating systems are conjecture, unverifiable at this time, and age is not necessarily predictive of their relative long-term success." Really, if anyone runs out of gas in the smartphone race, it will be Palm once McNamee stops pumping hundreds of millions into the company to prevent its immediate collapse.
post #2 of 53
Someone tell RBC! Ha!
From Apple ][ - to new Mac Pro I've used them all.
Long on AAPL so biased
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From Apple ][ - to new Mac Pro I've used them all.
Long on AAPL so biased
"Google doesn't sell you anything, they just sell you!"
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post #3 of 53
Quote:
Apple has consistently maintained a rapid pace of iPhone operating system development that has left Palm's historical efforts with the Palm OS in the dust, and has similarly embarrassed the perhaps once annually significant update that Microsoft rolls out for Palm's Windows Mobile phones. Apple has also outpaced Google's Android in significant updates over the past two years of parallel development, making it had to imagine how the struggling Palm, kept alive only by the investment grace of Elevation Partners' millions, will manage to outpace the leader in platform development using an entirely new operating system based largely upon the Web Kit software that is funded principally by Apple.

Absolutely stinging and brilliant way to cut through the hype.

Whilst WebKit is a fork of KHTML, would KHTML be where WebKit is today under its own steam?
Possibly. No one can say for certain.

Would WebKit be here today without Apple?
Highly unlikely. Apple forked KHTML to make Safari and the WebKit open source project was born.

Would the Pre (in its current form) be possible without WebKit?
Definitely not. Justification:
Option One:
Gecko, very much a work in progress on mobile devices

Option Two:
Opera's engine (Presto). This is in better shape than Gecko, but it would have meant licensing fees.
post #4 of 53
So basically the lawyers are saying, "Disregard everything McNamee said...all of it.".
"Some of us are decent people who want to stay out of the emergency room, but still
blast through neo-gridlock traffic in residential districts whenever we feel like it....
For that we need fine...
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"Some of us are decent people who want to stay out of the emergency room, but still
blast through neo-gridlock traffic in residential districts whenever we feel like it....
For that we need fine...
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post #5 of 53
I read this earlier today. It's quite embarrassing to have to retract so much, but I do hope that Palm will be saved by the Pre.
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post #6 of 53
This isn't the only guy like that at Palm - the CEO said “Why would we do that when we have a significantly better product" and walked off in a huff when asked if the Palm Pre was going to match the price of the iPhone. This was the same "We’ve learned and struggled for a few years here figuring out how to make a decent phone. PC guys are not going to just figure this out. They’re not going to just walk in." guy.

http://mediamemo.allthingsd.com/2009...-unveils-nova/

The pre is nice, but not that nice. These idiots must be a joy to work for.

The only thing that stops me from buying put options on palm stock is the risk of a buyout by Dell or HP, but I think that otherwise this company and stock is going to zero eventually.
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post #7 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

The pre is nice, but not that nice.

The Pre is nice for a device from Palm, but with the HW being available to all, note being able to use a capacitance touchscreen (I assume), having a new OS that hasn't been put through the paces, and having a clearly inferior 3rd-party platform I don't think it's going to rival any of the current big players. However, I do hope I am wrong as I'm nostalgic for Palm to rise again.
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post #8 of 53
Hey, looks like Ballmer will have a new place to work once he "steps down" from Micro$oft!!!!!!
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because those who mind don't matter and
those who matter don't mind
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Be who you are and say what you feel,
because those who mind don't matter and
those who matter don't mind
--Dr. Seuss
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post #9 of 53
Quote:
8. The statement in the second paragraph of the article that not one person who bought an Apple, Inc. iPhone on the first shipment date will still be using an iPhone a month after the two-year anniversary of that day is an exaggerated prediction of consumer behavior pattern and is withdrawn.

Whew. That's a relief. Since I knew I wasn't planning to give mine up, I figured Palm was just planning to murder everyone seen on the streets with an iPhone. Glad they've withdrawn that obvious threat.
post #10 of 53
Wow, this is incredible! I really just don't believe anything about the Pre anymore.

I now also consider that the company could well be fundamentally dishonest, or at the very least is a dirty outfit without honor or dignity.

It's certainly not a product or company I should ever like to be associated with.
post #11 of 53
WOW, Palm just made such joke out of themselves. Looks like the phone is no where near completion, but such negative things already said about it.
Im not sure if announcing Pre was smart. It's gonna loose all its hype before the release. It can't be this summer, because Apple is gonna steal it away with new iPhone and all other phones releasing touch screens too.

Not good, not good Palm.
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Apple had me at scrolling
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post #12 of 53
I think somebody should scramble to withdraw the inflated dancing Wozniak from TV.
post #13 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

This isn't the only guy like that at Palm - the CEO said Why would we do that when we have a significantly better product" and walked off in a huff when asked if the Palm Pre was going to match the price of the iPhone. This was the same "Weve learned and struggled for a few years here figuring out how to make a decent phone. PC guys are not going to just figure this out. Theyre not going to just walk in." guy.

How does this guy still have a job at Palm?
it's = it is / it has, its = belonging to it.
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post #14 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

After Palm investor Roger McNamee of Elevation Partners made wildly optimistic claims about the forthcoming Palm Pre, attorneys at Palm and Elevation Partners issued a free writing prospectus 'clarifying' facts that were misstated and 'withdrawing' his more exaggerated claims.

What was missing here, was the importance of the 'retraction' and what the impact of not toning down some of the claims could possibly have, i.e., banishment, massive fines or even jail.

Being "wildly optimistic" is one thing. However, if it was intended to affect the stock and the claims were found exaggerated or fraudulent, it is a crime. With potentially, very serious consequences.
post #15 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I read this earlier today. It's quite embarrassing to have to retract so much, but I do hope that Palm will be saved by the Pre.

The more these guys talk, the more I wonder if Pre ever makes it to market.

They should keep quiet and just get the damn thing to market. If its as good as it appears to be from its limited debut at CES, it'll do just fine and doesn't need idiotic hyperbole to hype it.
post #16 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

The more these guys talk, the more I wonder if Pre ever makes it to market.

They should keep quiet and just get the damn thing to market. If its as good as it appears to be from its limited debut at CES, it'll do just fine and doesn't need idiotic hyperbole to hype it.

I think the marketing they are doing is great for the product. Even this current hyperbole from McNamee will probably be good for the device. I know I am more interested in what they have to offer than I was with the Storm/Thunder or Android.

It was demoed on Late Night with Jimmy Fallon last night. I'm sure Palm paid a pretty penny for having their Pre demoed for so long on the show. It wasn't great TV to have a close up of a phone when you are expecting comedy. Then again, when watching late night talk shows one should not expect comedy lest ye be disappointed.
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post #17 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I think the marketing they are doing is great for the product. Even this current hyperbole from McNamee will probably be good for the device. I know I am more interested in what they have to offer than I was with the Storm/Thunder or Android.

It was demoed on Late Night with Jimmy Fallon last night. I'm sure Palm paid a pretty penny for having their Pre demoed for so long on the show. It wasn't great TV to have a close up of a phone when you are expecting comedy. Then again, when watching late night talk shows one should not expect comedy lest ye be disappointed.

Don't get me wrong, I'm hoping Pre does get to market. I'm really thinking of getting one for my wife. Sprint has a much better network in our home area than ATT.
post #18 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

Don't get me wrong, I'm hoping Pre does get to market. I'm really thinking of getting one for my wife. Sprint has a much better network in our home area than ATT.

http://www.networkworld.com/news/200...08-sprint.html

AT&T customer satisfaction 71%
Sprint customer satisfaction 56%

You must live in an unusual area.
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post #19 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

http://www.networkworld.com/news/200...08-sprint.html

AT&T customer satisfaction 71%
Sprint customer satisfaction 56%

You must live in an unusual area.

I think he means that AT&T doesn't have good cell coverage in his area, whilst Sprint does.
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post #20 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by surferfromuk View Post

Wow, this is incredible! I really just don't believe anything about the Pre anymore.

I now also consider that the company could well be fundamentally dishonest, or at the very least is a dirty outfit without honor or dignity.

It's certainly not a product or company I should ever like to be associated with.

Aw.... don't be so harsh. They're just trying to get some free buzz, that's all. And, succeeding.

After all, they're less than 1/100th the size of Apple, and don't remotely have the resources to compete for public attention. So they seem to be trying out some guerilla marketing, and it seems to be working.

If the arrival of the Pre helps to make the iPhone better, we're all better off for it.
post #21 of 53
Yes, the Pre is so innovative. Strange, Palm has to borrow Apple's stone desktop picture that Apple has included as an available desktop picture for as long as OSX has shipped.
post #22 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I think he means that AT&T doesn't have good cell coverage in his area, whilst Sprint does.

Where does AT&T have good coverage -period?

When the Pre meets Verizon, as rumored, later in the year, I suppose that's when it really takes off. Even if it performs 80-90% of what's being promised that's better than any Samsung or Blackberry for a consumer at Verizon.
post #23 of 53
These guys just need to keep quiet and get this thing to market. Their company I'd already struggling and losing money as is, if this Pre isn't a hit for them, I dont think they will survive, they don't need any distractions.
post #24 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

Yes, the Pre is so innovative. Strange, Palm has to borrow Apple's stone desktop picture that Apple has included as an available desktop picture for as long as OSX has shipped.

Right- and The Twilight Zone borrows from Apple the deep space rendering of Leopard and Time Machine too. And Apple invented grass before Microsoft, etc, etc.
post #25 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Where does AT&T have good coverage -period?

Verizon has better coverage overall, but there are plenty of places I have been where my iPhone is getting coverage and other carriers have little to no coverage. Including Verizon, though if AT&T has it then Verizon almost almost has it.

BTW, I travel 100% of the time. About 9 months in the US and 3 months elsewhere so I may have an idea about how the iPhone and AT&T perform.


PS: Some places my AT&T 3G USB broadband card and my iPhone gets faster internet on EDGE than it does on UMTS/HSDPA. Parts of Las Vegas and Los Angeles are two of these cities. Perhaps this is an issue with AT&T's 3G network being bogged down in large, trendy cities.
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post #26 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Verizon has better coverage overall, but there are plenty of places I have been where my iPhone is getting coverage and other carriers have little to no coverage. Including Verizon, though if AT&T has it then Verizon almost almost has it.

BTW, I travel 100% of the time. About 9 months in the US and 3 months elsewhere so I may have an idea about how the iPhone and AT&T perform.


PS: Some places my AT&T 3G USB broadband card and my iPhone gets faster internet on EDGE than it does on UMTS/HSDPA. Parts of Las Vegas and Los Angeles are two of these cities. Perhaps this is an issue with AT&T's 3G network being bogged down in large, trendy cities.

I really hope the iPhone can expand into other networks. How long is the contract with AT&T? It needs to get to the next level and this contract will only hurt it if it's for so long.
Don't you think Pre has a better chance with Verizon rather than Sprint once it goes there if it does? It's also ironic that most phones eventually are available at more than one network- but not the iPhone. I think that's much more important than expanding where it's sold(WalMArt); if it's stuck with AT&T only.
post #27 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

I really hope the iPhone can expand into other networks. How long is the contract with AT&T? It needs to get to the next level and this contract will only hurt it if it's for so long.

To get out of the profit sharing and go to a normal subsidization model with AT&T it's been reported (or perhaps just speculated) that Apple had to add to agree to an additional 2 years. That would mean June 2011, if the time starts when the first iPhone was released and the original contract was for 2 years.

Quote:
Don't you think Pre has a better chance with Verizon rather than Sprint once it goes there if it does?

That depends on if you are looking at a certain aspect or Verizon on the whole. From a network coverage and subscriber POV Verizon is top dog. No denying that. But if Sprint is paying Palm a great deal to get the Pre after the Samsung Instinct has failed despite excessive and expensive marketing -and/or- Verizon wanted to control the Pre's OS and control Palm because they have the upper hand, then I don't think Verizon is a good choice for Palm.

Quote:
It's also ironic that most phones eventually are available at more than one network- but not the iPhone. I think that's much more important than expanding where it's sold(WalMArt); if it's stuck with AT&T only.

Most phones, but not all. It seems to me that we are seeing a more prominent move to long term carrier and HW vendor unions since the iPhone, but it's not new. Melgross has mentioned it and offered many examples in the past, thought I cant' recall any at this moment.
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post #28 of 53
"The pre is nice . . . ."

How can anyone--ANYONE--possibly say that with a straight face?

THE "PRE" IS VAPORWARE! IT DOESN'T EXIST IN NATURE! It's a promise, a dream, a phantom, a ghost, a Potemkin Village, an ephemera!

No one actually saw it at CES . . . and it won best in show! What the hell is going on here, people? This "product" is BOGUS! It's BULLSH*T!

(There. I feel much better.)
post #29 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by VinitaBoy View Post

"The pre is nice . . . ."

How can anyone--ANYONE--possibly say that with a straight face?

THE "PRE" IS VAPORWARE! IT DOESN'T EXIST IN NATURE! It's a promise, a dream, a phantom, a ghost, a Potemkin Village, an ephemera!

No one actually saw it at CES . . . and it won best in show! What the hell is going on here, people? This "product" is BOGUS! It's BULLSH*T!

(There. I feel much better.)

I've seen plenty of close up video of the Pre's HW and SW. It's not more vaporware right now than the iPhone was during the 2007 MWSF keynote. In other words, it's not finished but there are working models.
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post #30 of 53
Apple can and should "threaten" a potential lawsuit over the multi-touch features of the Pre - and at the same time indicate clearly that Palm has no leg to stand on - in terms of a countersuit.

The important thing about Patent suits is that you have to be actively protecting your patent. You cant be seen delaying for 2 years, and then filing suit just in response to a suit filed by Apple. Apple can easily have a potential suit from Palm disposed very quickly with just this one argument. Also if other phones like Blackberry have infringed the same patents, Palm cannot selectively go after Apple for infringement. A lot of the interface ideas of the Palm are actually copied from the Newton. Also, Apple can easily show that using fingers instead of a stylus is a big enough difference from Palm's idea of doing things.

These concepts can handle pretty much everything Palm can throw at Apple.

I am sure Elevation Partners would be forced to cut their losses and get out at some point. There is no way they will be willing to spend more money on a lawsuit at this point. Without the money, Palm would be dead.

There has been so much said about the validity of Apple's multi-touch patent - and so much doubts about its enforceablity - but some things are clear. A competitor might get away with using Multi-touch in a device (based on prior art) etc., but most definitely will not be able to get away with copying specific gestures used by Apple for specific tasks. There is absolutely no "prior art" as far as the pinch gesture is concerned, nor will Palm be able to say that it is a "generic" idea and cannot be copyrighted.

The bigger issue, is that if Apple does not fight Palm on the idea of multi-touch, they could potentially face much more difficult battles with RIM or Microsoft, if they decide to follow Palm and copy the gestures. Apple is better off fighting a weak Palm, than a richer company.

Apple has suffered once already in its history, when Microsoft managed to copy the Apple interface. This time around, they should make 100% sure that Palm is crushed. In all probablity, just the threat of a lawsuit, with enough ammo to make it clear that countersuits will not work should be enough to keep Palm quiet.

In parallel, Apple could offer Palm a stiff licensing option - something like $20 a device for the ability to use Apple's multitouch gestures. Considering the financial situation of Palm, that might be the best option for Palm - and it helps Apple set a precedent in terms of establishing a licensing model. Once such a model is established, and some major players accept the model, it will be very difficult for other players to copy the idea without accepting the same licensing model.
post #31 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Where does AT&T have good coverage -period?

Hey now, I get really good coverage with my iPhone where I'm at right now. It is much better than what I got with Verizon. Now does that mean perfect coverage - certainly not it just means I get better coverage and a crystal clear signal on my iPhone.

What one needs to do is to take a more mature approach to local cell phone coverage and develop an understanding of the technology involved. Once you come to grips with the idea that the device uses RF energy you will realize that there are limitations that all radios have to deal with.
Quote:
When the Pre meets Verizon, as rumored, later in the year, I suppose that's when it really takes off. Even if it performs 80-90% of what's being promised that's better than any Samsung or Blackberry for a consumer at Verizon.

The little I've read about the device does impress me. Webkit based apps ought to be interesting and plentiful. However I still see iPhone having the upper hand when it comes to complex apps. This due to the fairly unlimited access via C/C++/Objective-C.

I say fairly because there are things that they need to open up to developers or finish off. Bluetooth and USB access comes to mind. As developer skills firm up the quality and complexity of apps has steadly increased on iPhone. I think we will see an early plataue with respect to Pre apps. Plus Apple has a huge advantage with iPhone in that they can easily tailor Rev 3 of iPhone to compete agressively against the competition.

How will they do that Dave, you might ask. It is easy and much of the potential technology is already discussed widely. A faster processor and more RAM are obvious upgrades. Then we have the potential of OpenCL type processing on the iPhone. With more RAM they can expose a simple form of multi tasking or background apps.

The problem as I see it is that Apple will have rev 3 fresh on the market about the time the PRE comes out. It isn't going to take much to make the iPhone significantly better even on the rev one and two platforms. That would be delivered via iPhone OS 3. IPhone OS 3 running on rev 3 hardware though ought to be impressive. If you are wondering yes I'm expecting a minor hardware upgrade to the current iPhone platform.

I also expected another iPhone in the family and that has yet to come so what do I know. Anyways back to Palm and the bigwigs. I'm not sure Apple fanboise are in a position to complain here as there is nobody better at stretching the truth and pedaling disinformation than Apple and Steve O. You all must remember the G5 claims that where bogus from the beginning. Don't get me wrong I love some of Apples products but some of the bake offs of the past where a riot if you understood what was going on. They played that song right up to the Intel switch over and then tossed it out the window like a cousin suffering from the crabs. After the change it was down right funny to listen to the reports about how fast the Intel machines where.

The only difference I can see here is that this bigwig gets called on it and Stevo never has been put in a position to justify his claims.

Dave
post #32 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by macarena View Post

Apple can and should "threaten" a potential lawsuit over the multi-touch features of the Pre - and at the same time indicate clearly that Palm has no leg to stand on - in terms of a countersuit.

The important thing about Patent suits is that you have to be actively protecting your patent. You cant be seen delaying for 2 years, and then filing suit just in response to a suit filed by Apple. Apple can easily have a potential suit from Palm disposed very quickly with just this one argument. Also if other phones like Blackberry have infringed the same patents, Palm cannot selectively go after Apple for infringement. A lot of the interface ideas of the Palm are actually copied from the Newton. Also, Apple can easily show that using fingers instead of a stylus is a big enough difference from Palm's idea of doing things.

These concepts can handle pretty much everything Palm can throw at Apple.

I am sure Elevation Partners would be forced to cut their losses and get out at some point. There is no way they will be willing to spend more money on a lawsuit at this point. Without the money, Palm would be dead.

There has been so much said about the validity of Apple's multi-touch patent - and so much doubts about its enforceablity - but some things are clear. A competitor might get away with using Multi-touch in a device (based on prior art) etc., but most definitely will not be able to get away with copying specific gestures used by Apple for specific tasks. There is absolutely no "prior art" as far as the pinch gesture is concerned, nor will Palm be able to say that it is a "generic" idea and cannot be copyrighted.

The bigger issue, is that if Apple does not fight Palm on the idea of multi-touch, they could potentially face much more difficult battles with RIM or Microsoft, if they decide to follow Palm and copy the gestures. Apple is better off fighting a weak Palm, than a richer company.

Apple has suffered once already in its history, when Microsoft managed to copy the Apple interface. This time around, they should make 100% sure that Palm is crushed. In all probablity, just the threat of a lawsuit, with enough ammo to make it clear that countersuits will not work should be enough to keep Palm quiet.

In parallel, Apple could offer Palm a stiff licensing option - something like $20 a device for the ability to use Apple's multitouch gestures. Considering the financial situation of Palm, that might be the best option for Palm - and it helps Apple set a precedent in terms of establishing a licensing model. Once such a model is established, and some major players accept the model, it will be very difficult for other players to copy the idea without accepting the same licensing model.

You are confusing patents and trademarks. You MUST defend a trademark.

You can sit on a patent all you like, you can sue one violator while letting the rest get away, you can license it to others on different terms, you can chose to do nothing.
post #33 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Verizon has better coverage overall, but there are plenty of places I have been where my iPhone is getting coverage and other carriers have little to no coverage. Including Verizon, though if AT&T has it then Verizon almost almost has it.

I've come to the point where I tune out the AT&T has bad coverage whining. I've lost coverage with both Verizon and AT&T in a number of places.
Quote:

BTW, I travel 100% of the time. About 9 months in the US and 3 months elsewhere so I may have an idea about how the iPhone and AT&T perform.

How do you do it? Travel that much I mean, a couple of years ago I had to travel about a half a year for the company and hated it. Back when I was looking for work I would turn down jobs with excessive travel. A couple of weeks a year can be good but 100% of the time yuk.

In anyevent with all this travel talk I have to wonder how you handle international calling. The one thing that does bother me about iPhone is it's locked nature and the issue of sim card usage in foriegn lands. Of all the issues with the AT&T and Apple arraingement they really make it difficult for the international traveler. Here I'm talking non business travel.
Quote:
PS: Some places my AT&T 3G USB broadband card and my iPhone gets faster internet on EDGE than it does on UMTS/HSDPA. Parts of Las Vegas and Los Angeles are two of these cities. Perhaps this is an issue with AT&T's 3G network being bogged down in large, trendy cities.

Late last year I spent a week in Vegas on vacation and got what I thought where my best data rates ever. Of course the town isn't packed like it use to be. Even the hotel network was extra zippy.


Dave
post #34 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by columbus View Post

Absolutely stinging and brilliant way to cut through the hype.

Whilst WebKit is a fork of KHTML, would KHTML be where WebKit is today under its own steam?
Possibly. No one can say for certain.

Would WebKit be here today without Apple?
Highly unlikely. Apple forked KHTML to make Safari and the WebKit open source project was born.

Would the Pre (in its current form) be possible without WebKit?
Definitely not. Justification:
Option One:
Gecko, very much a work in progress on mobile devices

Option Two:
Opera's engine (Presto). This is in better shape than Gecko, but it would have meant licensing fees.

Webkit initially was a fork of KHTML/KJS. It doesn't remotely resemble that history, today.

Secondly, Presto is the forth coming engine that wasn't even a dream 4 years ago.

Thirdly, even Gecko is going through a complete evolution.
post #35 of 53
The Pre is currently VAPOURWARE.

Until it hits the shelves (if ever, or if it isn't really takeover bait), THEN we'll see.
post #36 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

Yes, the Pre is so innovative. Strange, Palm has to borrow Apple's stone desktop picture that Apple has included as an available desktop picture for as long as OSX has shipped.

Fine with me, I never liked that desktop anyway.

I don't doubt the Pre will be a very innovative device as well, but the problem with Palm is in the management not in the engineers.

Palm needs an overhaul. The idiots running them now are "just do enough to get by" kinda folks. They stopped innovating long ago because management didn't understand the value of Research & Development. Took a 3rd party coming in & pouring money into R & D to get them to even look at such a thing. Fools.
post #37 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

I've come to the point where I tune out the AT&T has bad coverage whining. I've lost coverage with both Verizon and AT&T in a number of places.

I wasn't whining, just stating some of the areas I've noticed the most problems. Being an AT&T customer for both my iPhone and 3G card I can't comment on other carriers as a whole. I'm quite happy with my AT&T service.

Quote:
How do you do it? Travel that much I mean, a couple of years ago I had to travel about a half a year for the company and hated it. Back when I was looking for work I would turn down jobs with excessive travel. A couple of weeks a year can be good but 100% of the time yuk.

I like to travel. I am not a fan of being stationary. With the internet keeping connected to friends and family I don't have any desire to buy another house and remain in one location doing the same job. It's just not my personality. The internet allows me to do all my bills online, but I do have a very large POBox near my family that I get to a few times a year. I have no offspring or a wife, which makes it much easier.

Quote:
In any event with all this travel talk I have to wonder how you handle international calling. The one thing that does bother me about iPhone is it's locked nature and the issue of sim card usage in foriegn lands. Of all the issues with the AT&T and Apple arraingement they really make it difficult for the international traveler. Here I'm talking non business travel.

You either get a disposable phone, switching out SIMs per country, and use your iPhone as an iPod or you unlock your iPhone using Pwnage

Quote:
Late last year I spent a week in Vegas on vacation and got what I thought where my best data rates ever. Of course the town isn't packed like it use to be. Even the hotel network was extra zippy.

I was there last week and was getting something like 12-30KBps whenever I checked the data rate on one of many websites. Of course, I only checked when the data rates were bad but I don't recall any time things seemed fast. EDGE on the iPhone was noticeably faster in many places. I expect AT&T is correcting such issues and that the towers I used may be representative of the average tower in LV.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #38 of 53
This McNamee is brilliant : first go on and blabber hyperbole, reality be damned, and get all the press to talk about it. Then, send your lawyers by the back door to deliver a "please disregard" message to the same press. Then end result : the initial message (the lie) is imprinted in people's mind and in court, McNamee can assert that his statements were nullified by an "official and widely spread" statement.

Still : search around the web and you will see McNamee's prior assertion in all their glory everywhere. Today... and in 12 months too. So his lies will pay off for a long time, comfortably screened by the goodwill statement of his attorneys.
post #39 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pascal007 View Post

This McNamee is brilliant : first go on and blabber hyperbole, reality be damned, and get all the press to talk about it. Then, send your lawyers by the back door to deliver a "please disregard" message to the same press. Then end result : the initial message (the lie) is imprinted in people's mind and in court, McNamee can assert that his statements were nullified by an "official and widely spread" statement.

Still : search around the web and you will see McNamee's prior assertion in all their glory everywhere. Today... and in 12 months too. So his lies will pay off for a long time, comfortably screened by the goodwill statement of his attorneys.

With his statements so unrealistic I think it's an easy case to win that this was hyperbole.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #40 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I think he means that AT&T doesn't have good cell coverage in his area, whilst Sprint does.

Correct.
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