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Late rumor has iPhone 3.0 getting copy-and-paste, multitasking - Page 3

post #81 of 139
3/16/09 at 8:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakorai View Post

Apple could easily take over the enterprise with the iPhone, but many fundamental changes must be made before they could overtake Blackberry. My list in my previous post is just a small fraction of what they need to do. Locking the device down to just GSM carriers with exclusive contracts prevents full scale adoption.

Some of the things you said in your earlier post are irrelevant to the enterprise market. For example, the fact that the phone has a physical keyboard or not is irrelevant to the enterprise. Tons of the business people that I know of are happy with the virtual keyboard on the iPhone. I actually type much faster on my iPhone than on my Treo 650. I've never had a Blackberry so I can't comment much on that, but I don't think it will make me type much faster than on my old Treo.

Second, doing decent quality video is even more irrelevant to the enterprise market. To me, you're just justifying your complaints on your second posts after you made the complaints.

Finally, locking the device is pain in the ass, but this has been the situation for years in the States and the majority of smartphones are locked. Don't get me wrong, I think that the US carrier's habit of locking phones are horrible and I agree with you on this. However, you somewhat over magnified the fact that iPhone is locked on to AT&T while not mentioning the fact that most smartphones out there are locked as well. In fact, most IT guys in big companies are not that concern about the locking issues, which to me is a bad thing.
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post #82 of 139
3/16/09 at 8:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mechengit View Post

Some of the things you said in your earlier post are irrelevant to the enterprise market. For example, the fact that the phone has a physical keyboard or not is irrelevant to the enterprise. Tons of the business people that I know of are happy with the virtual keyboard on the iPhone. I actually type much faster on my iPhone than on my Treo 650. I've never had a Blackberry so I can't comment much on that, but I don't think it will make me type much faster than on my old Treo.

Second, doing decent quality video is even more irrelevant to the enterprise market. To me, you're just justifying your complaints on your second posts after you made the complaints.

Finally, locking the device is pain in the ass, but this has been the situation for years in the States and the majority of smartphones are locked. Don't get me wrong, I think that the US carrier's habit of locking phones are horrible and I agree with you on this. However, you somewhat over magnified the fact that iPhone is locked on to AT&T while not mentioning the fact that most smartphones out there are locked as well. In fact, most IT guys in big companies are not that concern about the locking issues, which to me is a bad thing.

I've worked in IT for years. One company I worked for, large, had cell BlackBerry's/SmartPhones for all the carriers to support where users lived, and to ensure good reception. T-Mo BB's didn't work on AT&T, and vice-versa. This is not just Apple/iPhone, its all of them as you mentioned. I guess I don't understand why some folks get upset that the iPhone only works on AT&T. Last I checked the BB Storm doesn't work on AT&T, Sprint, or T-Mo; guess RIM are a bunch of SOB's? lol
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post #83 of 139
3/16/09 at 8:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakorai View Post

My HTC Touch Pro (sprint) has background app capability

I wonder how many have sold.

Quote:
it can do decent quality video

You have to have pretty low standards to call video quality from a mobile phone decent. Some mobile phone video may be better than others, at best I would call them all different shades of crap.
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post #84 of 139
3/16/09 at 9:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltaic View Post

It only requires the expansion of the gesture set with the addition of appropriate buttons to the UI to enable, at the very minimum, global text select, copy and paste

And that gesture set should not be expanded willy-nilly without user testing. Other than the security sandboxing issue, I don't think anyone is saying C&P is a technical implementation issue for the iPhone, it's primarily a UI design issue.
"you will know the truth, and the truth will
set you free."
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post #85 of 139
3/16/09 at 9:04am
Thank you for figuring this out for us. Without your extremely detailed and highly informed thesis we all would have never known this. We should get the word out to other people who use the iPhone every day and have not figured out that it was launched prematurely and is underpowered. We should inform them of the other phone that does everything the iPhone can do even better. Wait, which phone is that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ouragan View Post

Either the iPhone was launched prematurely, before the OS contained the features that would make the iPhone more than a cute and expensive gadget, or the iPhone is underpowered. At this point, I am inclined to believe that both are true, i.e. the iPhone is underpowered and it's software is immature.

That the iPhone is underpowered should come as no surprise as it reflects the sorry state of Mac desktops (which carry older, slower, mobile, dual core Core 2 Duo CPUs instead of the newer desktop or mobile quad cores such as Core 2 Quads and Core i7).

To guarantee its 50% profit margins on iPhones, Apple is using older, cheaper, slower components which go against its new found description of the iPhone as a "gaming platform".


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post #86 of 139
3/16/09 at 9:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdmelvin View Post

I've worked in IT for years. One company I worked for, large, had cell BlackBerry's/SmartPhones for all the carriers to support where users lived, and to ensure good reception. T-Mo BB's didn't work on AT&T, and vice-versa. This is not just Apple/iPhone, its all of them as you mentioned. I guess I don't understand why some folks get upset that the iPhone only works on AT&T. Last I checked the BB Storm doesn't work on AT&T, Sprint, or T-Mo; guess RIM are a bunch of SOB's? lol

I think the real issue with crying foul on the US Phone's carrier lock-in is not that other phones don't have it, but that the exclusive deal with the iPhone is unprecedented in duration. The US is very familiar with vendor/carrier exclusivity rights, but lasting 2 years was unheard of.

To break free from the profit sharing deal it is rumoured that Apple had to agree to another 2 years. If true, I don't think this bothers Apple as they don't seem to want to support different models to support CDMA or the T-Mobile radio frequencies doesn't seem to fit them. Sure, they could add both CDMA and GSM, as well the radios for T-Mobile 3G, but that is extra cost and more bulk to the HW for a gain that only really benefits the US at this time. Though China does has a large CDMA user-base, which I think is the only way that a CDMA iPhone will ever get considered for the US.

On top of that, I think the iPhone is the only cell phone that AT&T will not unlock after your contract is completed. Luckily Pwnage team are very dedicated to SW cracking the iPhone and go out of there way to not charge a dime for the service.
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post #87 of 139
3/16/09 at 9:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2005 View Post

And that gesture set should not be expanded willy-nilly without user testing. Other than the security sandboxing issue, I don't think anyone is saying C&P is a technical implementation issue for the iPhone, it's primarily a UI design issue.

Not to sound pedantic (which means I'm about to ), but finding the right way to implement the UI is a technical issue from my POV.
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post #88 of 139
3/16/09 at 9:11am
Apple is largely a consumer centric company more than an enterprise centric company.

I'm pretty sure, I may be wrong. But I'm pretty sure Apple's business decisions don't revolve around your personal requirements for approval.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lakorai View Post

My point is that when Apple gets rid of these limitations than I would consider an iPhone.

iPhones are decent for consumer use, but they have a long way to go before the enterprise can truly embrace them like they embraced the Blackberry.
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post #89 of 139
3/16/09 at 9:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

No, no it's not. Read the posts about us that stating it's an major hurdle. We have explained the pitfalls of trying to implement a desktop OS method on a finger gestured touchscreen.

Regarding you suggestion of using the trackpad to tap here is an example. You are currently in a web browser, if you want to copy a word I have to click two to get the word to highlight. But on the iPhone that would zoom the page. You can triple click to copy the whole line but you can't copy a part of word or certain words with that method. For that you'll need the accuracy of the mouse pointer and the holding of the mouse/trackpad button. As if that wasn't enough, you then have to be able to copy the text and then be able to paste it somewhere.

A more direct example... Try to copy only a few letters from the word below withOUT using the keyboard or pressing the physical mouse/button.

• IMPOSSIBLE


First of all, do you know how to select a chunk of texts (not just one word) using the touchpad with just one finger and without the need of additional physical or virtual buttons? If not, then ask before making any definite statement or else it will make you look ignorant. From the post you made, you obviously don't know how.

I have to make myself clear here. I've only said that the SELECTING texts issues is solved already with the current touchpad technology, not the copy-and-paste feature, which still requires addtional buttons on laptops. I've been only talking about SELECTING texts using the touchpad with one finger and without the need of any additional physical or virtual button. Somehow Solipsism challenged me to do copy which I've never claimed I can without the assistance of additional button. I do hope Solipsism can read someone's post more carefully before replying something irrelevant to what I've been saying earlier.

Selecting a chunk of text using the touchpad with one finger is more than just double tapping. You people are so stuck with the fact that double tapping would zoom in, but overlooking the fact that iPhone will not invoke zoom in when your finger does not leave the screen immediately on the second tap. When you finger tap the touchpad for the second time without leaving it, this will invoke the selecting function. When you finish selecting, just tap the touchpad again and the texts are selected. This method has been on the laptop for years and this does not conflict with any gestures on the iPhone.

Some of you might argue that the screen will scroll which conflict with the action of selecting. No, it's not. Once you tap the screen the second time without leaving the screen, this will invoke a cursor to selecting text mode and stop the scrolling mode, like the magnifying glass on the iPhone to select where you want to input text. Once you finished selecting text and tap the screen one more time, this will turn the phone back to scrolling mode.
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post #90 of 139
3/16/09 at 9:15am
The Palm Pre is vaporware. Until its a shipping product it doesn't have a level yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

He also hints that many of the software efforts in the year since iPhone 2.0 will bring the device up to the level of the Palm Pre, which while unreleased has a number of software advantages over Apple's platform.
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post #91 of 139
3/16/09 at 9:17am
So given last week's outing of AAPL stock manipulation (which we all know has been happening), is this just another example of that?
Pre-speculation of features/products, and when not all of them appear, AAPL tanks, and shorters clean up?
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post #92 of 139
3/16/09 at 9:20am
Doesn't everyone claim to have a friend that knows it all? Kevin Rose didn't know what he was talking about when he worked at TechTV. Probably would be more believable if his so called friend provided screenshots from the developer build.
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post #93 of 139
3/16/09 at 9:22am
It would also be nice if Mail recognized landscape view. It would make reading emails much easier, just like reading the web in landscape view.
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post #94 of 139
3/16/09 at 9:24am
Again, check out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXS3SQauwPE

Their dev environment is little more than "Mobile HyperCard"
And their great new Palm-supplied features are nothing that iPhone can't put in easily, and will probably (apparently) have in 3.0.

Pre will be leapfrogged before it even comes out.
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post #95 of 139
3/16/09 at 9:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mechengit View Post

When you finger tap the touchpad for the second time without leaving it, this will invoke the selecting function.

Just like I stated in post #31 of this thread and linked to a video detailing the difficulties and a possible how to in post #33. But in post #65 you state that this problem is solved, without the need for a keyboard or complicated input, implying that it's simple. Now you are changing your story stating that you'll have to do something different, like holding on the second tap. Of course, this on't select text but now allow you an interface to highlight text to copy. Do you see that it's not the same software to make this happen from the PC to a touchscreen using fingers as input? Watch the video, it's worth it.
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post #96 of 139
3/16/09 at 9:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivan.rnn01 View Post

I came to similar conclusion. Here goes my guess.
The selection gesture will be tap-and-hold. There will be clearer distinction between selection and possible dialog call (note, picture is indeed selected now first, when copied from the web, then the dialog appears). Copy-paste operations will be triggered either by dialog buttons, or by swipe gestures.
And the number of hold downs will determine what is selected: section-sentence-word-some characters under lens...

why not do it the way the newton did? tap/hold to start the selection, drag to select, tap and drag the selection to the edge of the screen to put it in the clipboard?
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post #97 of 139
3/16/09 at 9:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

[...] I think the iPhone is the only cell phone that AT&T will not unlock after your contract is completed. Luckily Pwnage team are very dedicated to SW cracking the iPhone and go out of there way to not charge a dime for the service.

I never had any interest in jailbreaking my original iPhone but after June and presumably when I get a new iPhone, I may jailbreak my old one or maybe just sell it on Craigslist/eBay.

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post #98 of 139
3/16/09 at 9:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivan.rnn01 View Post

Laptops have mouse pointers to allow selection of any types of blocks, iPhone does not. Laptops do not employ tapping event to zoom, iPhone does.

That's not an issue at all. Just look how iPhone is able to select where users want to input texts with the magnify glass. That's the cursor. The iPhone only invokes the cursor, sort to speak, when it needs it.
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post #99 of 139
3/16/09 at 9:44am
delete

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post #100 of 139
3/16/09 at 9:45am
I can't watch solipsism's video from my office, unfortunately. The site's blocked due to "proxy avoidance" From my home I will.
Holding on the second tap may theoretically be used for the selection. But I doubt it will.
  1. Way too tiny distinction between selection and zoom gestures. Human users will oftenly misbehave.
  2. Way too complex procedure requiring way too long series of gestures...

Yet it isn't completely impossible. Will displease me.

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post #101 of 139
3/16/09 at 9:47am
It is an issue, you just don't understand it. A cursor is a pixel accurate pointing device. Your finger covers a large number of pixels and is not accurate at all. The software has to figure out exactly which pixels you are intending to select, that is not a simple problem to solve.

The BlackBerry Storm has touch screen copy and paste, every review has said its terrible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mechengit View Post

That's not an issue at all. Just look how iPhone is able to select where users want to input texts with the magnify glass. That's the cursor. The iPhone only invokes the cursor, sort to speak, when it needs it.
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post #102 of 139
3/16/09 at 9:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mechengit View Post

That's not an issue at all. Just look how iPhone is able to select where users want to input texts with the magnify glass. That's the cursor. The iPhone only invokes the cursor, sort to speak, when it needs it.

It is, in conjunction with the need to select blocks of any types. Part of a word, for instance. One can not tell the gesture pretending simply to move cursor over the text from that trying to select text.

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post #103 of 139
3/16/09 at 9:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hillstones View Post

Doesn't everyone claim to have a friend that knows it all? Kevin Rose didn't know what he was talking about when he worked at TechTV. Probably would be more believable if his so called friend provided screenshots from the developer build.

Anyone who relies on Kevin Rose for definitive inside information should learn to pick better sources.

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post #104 of 139
3/16/09 at 10:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofino View Post

tap/hold to start the selection

Or just to bring the cursor up? How should s/w know what the user means by that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofino View Post

drag to select

Or just move the cursor over the text? What's the watershed?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofino View Post

tap and drag the selection to the edge of the screen to put it in the clipboard?

Copying is not the problem. There are plenty of suitable gestures and techniques. The selection is the problem.

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People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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post #105 of 139
3/16/09 at 10:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Just like I stated in post #31 of this thread and linked to a video detailing the difficulties and a possible how to in post #33. But in post #65 you state that this problem is solved, without the need for a keyboard or complicated input, implying that it's simple. Now you are changing your story stating that you'll have to do something different, like holding on the second tap. Of course, this on't select text but now allow you an interface to highlight text to copy. Do you see that it's not the same software to make this happen from the PC to a touchscreen using fingers as input? Watch the video, it's worth it.

I saw the video and the difficulties mentioned in the video, but I haven't seen why the method I mentioned has any conflict with the current iPhone gestures. What the video suggests is another method. Whether or not which method is better is a whole different discussion. First you rejected the method I mentioned, then you gave me a video that has no obvious conflict with my method, then what you are doing as far as I can tell is picking on my wording and reading into it and claiming that I implied something that I obviously didn't.

What I said on post #65 is this...
"I'm not sure why this needs to be discussed because this is an already solved issue with the current touchpad technology on laptops. Yes, you can select a chunk of texts by just tapping one finger on the touchpad without the need of additional physical or virtual buttons."

"Complicated input" is a unclear/subjective term raised by you first and I've never mentioned it before. I think the method I mentioned is not a complicated input and I think it is as easy as to use the magnify glass on the iPhone. That does not conflict with anything what I said earlier and I've never said or imply that I can do it with just one simple tap or anything like that (what I said was "tapping one finger") and obviously you're reading into it. I've never changed my story. I've been able to select a chunk of text with one finger and I have been doing this for years on my laptop, and it's not complicated at all. The main problem here is that my story conflicts with your misunderstanding of what I'm saying, which is your problem.
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post #106 of 139
3/16/09 at 10:13am
I guess the other problem with a simple drag over the text to make a selection is that doesn't give you any way to accurately position the START of the drag. The end isn't a problem, as you could show a magnifying glass as you drag, but once you enter selection mode you need a way to accurately adjust both start and end of the selection and then switch to the other one.
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post #107 of 139
3/16/09 at 10:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivan.rnn01 View Post

It is, in conjunction with the need to select blocks of any types. Part of a word, for instance. One can not tell the gesture pretending simply to move cursor over the text from that trying to select text.

You're obviously thinking that the cursor has to act the way it is on desktop computers. As I said earlier, the "cursor" already existed on the iPhone but in a very different way than ones on desktop computers. The cursor can act differently to solve the issue you mentioned. Please see post #89.
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post #108 of 139
3/16/09 at 10:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Is one of those tasks receiving/sending MMS pictures?

Because the iPhone wasn't really missing MMS until the Pre launched?

Don't get me wrong: you can rightly criticize the iPhone for missing a good number of features. But those things aren't part of some high-water mark set by Palm.
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post #109 of 139
3/16/09 at 10:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

It is an issue, you just don't understand it. A cursor is a pixel accurate pointing device. Your finger covers a large number of pixels and is not accurate at all. The software has to figure out exactly which pixels you are intending to select, that is not a simple problem to solve.

The BlackBerry Storm has touch screen copy and paste, every review has said its terrible.

The issue you mentioned is a concern. However, this is entirely another different issue that could affect the whole iPhone UI rather than just the selecting text issue.
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post #110 of 139
3/16/09 at 10:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I think the real issue with crying foul on the US Phone's carrier lock-in is not that other phones don't have it, but that the exclusive deal with the iPhone is unprecedented in duration. The US is very familiar with vendor/carrier exclusivity rights, but lasting 2 years was unheard of.

To break free from the profit sharing deal it is rumoured that Apple had to agree to another 2 years. If true, I don't think this bothers Apple as they don't seem to want to support different models to support CDMA or the T-Mobile radio frequencies doesn't seem to fit them. Sure, they could add both CDMA and GSM, as well the radios for T-Mobile 3G, but that is extra cost and more bulk to the HW for a gain that only really benefits the US at this time. Though China does has a large CDMA user-base, which I think is the only way that a CDMA iPhone will ever get considered for the US.

On top of that, I think the iPhone is the only cell phone that AT&T will not unlock after your contract is completed. Luckily Pwnage team are very dedicated to SW cracking the iPhone and go out of there way to not charge a dime for the service.

solipsism,

I see your point. Hope I didn't offend. I was just stating how some folks here have complained that the phone is locked, or only works on a specific network. That's the case with all phones. I agree that AT&T has had a strangle hold on the iPhone for way to long. But again, Apple did approach others early on, and they would only take the phone, so as long as they could add their pieces to the phone. I'm glad to finally have a phone that is in it's native format. Not some butchered variation of AT&T, T-Mo, Verizon, etc. with their own icons and things. Good or Bad...
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post #111 of 139
3/16/09 at 10:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlebrech View Post

and throw in another "n" for good measure.

Yah, you're right-It's too bad whining doesn't have two "n"s. Being clever and "winning" is hard when you get sloppy as I did, trying to be a little positive here, as the very first comment was correctly predicting a lot of complaining. But Blogging is as it is and it looks like "whining" is the usual fare. All I can say is...I'd rather be iPhoning than click, click, clicking in a Microsoft platform, or trying to decipher the text based junk in a BlackBerry's email. I repeat. "The iPhone is the greatest device since the wheel!"
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post #112 of 139
3/16/09 at 11:28am
Apple should not allow third parties to create native iPhone applications. Nobody needs third party iPhone applications. Web apps are really really SWEET.
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post #113 of 139
3/16/09 at 11:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2005 View Post

And that gesture set should not be expanded willy-nilly without user testing. Other than the security sandboxing issue, I don't think anyone is saying C&P is a technical implementation issue for the iPhone, it's primarily a UI design issue.

I agree with you in principle. I think you are right in suggesting that C&P needs to be implemented within the iPhone UI in a thoughtful way, and it needs user testing to make sure it is right. That said, I do hope they finally bring C&P in tomorrow.

I think you are mistaken with respect to the magnitude of difficulty you attach to this problem. I am speaking from experience, here - I've designed a lot of UI and done a lot of user testing. And, from my perspective, while you do need to do testing... design and user testing doesn't take two years. My own belief is that usability issues cannot possibly have accounted for the sort of delay we have seen with C&P.

As far as sandboxing goes, it really should not be an issue. You keep talking about it like it is some sort of killer problem, but I just don't see it. Apple applications already share info across their "sandboxes," as you use the term. When you select a picture from your camera roll and you mail that to someone, that is data sharing across two different application "sandboxes". When you get an SMS with a hyperlink in it, and you click that to invoke Safari, it is likewise. I think that in your head you've drawn this arbitrary line between applications, which you think are operating in some sort of ultra-rigid secure box... and you've assumed, I think, that this means there is some terrible, insurmountable security issue surrounding sharing of data across applications. However, that's just not the case at all.

Fundamentally, any copy and paste security issue is a distinction between user initiated copying and 'other'. To be clear on that, for a user to copy a chunk of text from one sandboxed state to another is never an issue. It is kind-of a no-brainer, really: users have a right to decide how they want to use their information; their actions should not be impeded. Programs should never be able to copy text from A to B without user initiation. That's the sum total of the security issue, and in reality... it is basically a non-issue.

Overall, in most of your comments, I feel you've overblown the issues involved and really underplayed what I think the real issue has been: this is something Apple just did not want to do, for whatever reason. Keep in mind, I'm not trying to establish motive,I'm just suggesting that the issues involved here are not technical OR usability related.
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post #114 of 139
3/16/09 at 12:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ttupper View Post

I agree with you in principle. I think you are right in suggesting that C&P needs to be implemented within the iPhone UI in a thoughtful way, and it needs user testing to make sure it is right. That said, I do hope they finally bring C&P in tomorrow.

I think you are mistaken with respect to the magnitude of difficulty you attach to this problem. I am speaking from experience, here - I've designed a lot of UI and done a lot of user testing. And, from my perspective, while you do need to do testing... design and user testing doesn't take two years. My own belief is that usability issues cannot possibly have accounted for the sort of delay we have seen with C&P.

As far as sandboxing goes, it really should not be an issue. You keep talking about it like it is some sort of killer problem, but I just don't see it. Apple applications already share info across their "sandboxes," as you use the term. When you select a picture from your camera roll and you mail that to someone, that is data sharing across two different application "sandboxes". When you get an SMS with a hyperlink in it, and you click that to invoke Safari, it is likewise. I think that in your head you've drawn this arbitrary line between applications, which you think are operating in some sort of ultra-rigid secure box... and you've assumed, I think, that this means there is some terrible, insurmountable security issue surrounding sharing of data across applications. However, that's just not the case at all.

Fundamentally, any copy and paste security issue is a distinction between user initiated copying and 'other'. To be clear on that, for a user to copy a chunk of text from one sandboxed state to another is never an issue. It is kind-of a no-brainer, really: users have a right to decide how they want to use their information; their actions should not be impeded. Programs should never be able to copy text from A to B without user initiation. That's the sum total of the security issue, and in reality... it is basically a non-issue.

Overall, in most of your comments, I feel you've overblown the issues involved and really underplayed what I think the real issue has been: this is something Apple just did not want to do, for whatever reason. Keep in mind, I'm not trying to establish motive,I'm just suggesting that the issues involved here are not technical OR usability related.

I agree that C&P was not an Apple priority for iPhone 1.0. Though I believe Apple began studying it after the original iPhone release, it again was not an Apple priority (per Joswiak) so it did not lead to any focused effort leading to a decision for iPhone 2.0. I believe Apple has looked at lots of choices for the UI. But until the security issue is resolved, a UI decision wasn't required.

I believe in Apple's planning, C&P is attached to multi-tasking apps, and both were intended to be delivered together. It's possible they are no longer connected, as many have pointed out C&P use cases between Apple's own apps that have not been addressed.

I think you've simplified the security issue. Apple implemented "moving" of data between their own apps, but that's because there's no security issue with their own apps. And the issue, of course, is not with user initiated C&P. The issue is with C&P by rogue apps without user awareness, and whether Apple can detect and reject such code when it is reviewing apps for the App Store. You can see there are all sorts of horrific marketing and legal outcomes if such code gets through. (Except it didn't really hurt Windows that much, but then again, they didn't vet apps. )

I, too, hope to see C&P and multi-tasking for 3rd party apps tomorrow.
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"you will know the truth, and the truth will
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post #115 of 139
3/16/09 at 12:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mechengit View Post

Please see post #89.

Then I beg you to look through posts #100-102 having already discussed your concern. What you wrote about is ugly solution being somehow useful only for desktop systems, not for mobile those. Take iPhone with you in moving car, on the passenger seat, sure. Try to zoom, then to select a block taping-holding as you propose, you'll see it for yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mechengit View Post

You're obviously thinking that the cursor has to act the way it is on desktop computers. As I said earlier, the "cursor" already existed on the iPhone but in a very different way than ones on desktop computers.

That is exactly where the problem's laying. I watched the video Solipsism pointed to. It doesn't get to the final point either.
The paradigm of pointing devices for desktop systems implies two states of those devices:
  1. repositioning/pointing
  2. selecting
There is the reliable and easily detected switch between these two states. This is not the case for iPhone.

So the most reliable (yet ugly) solution for touchscreen mobile devices would be the toggle button "iSelect" (like "Determine your location" in Maps application).

The elegant solution remains to be found by Apple...

We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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post #116 of 139
3/16/09 at 1:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by arteckx View Post

That brings back memories of my old 400MHz AMD K6 with 64MB RAM. I haven't heard someone mention 64MB for total system memory in a long time (no surprise).

It was running Windows ME and at any given time, the minimum I had open was Internet Explorer, AIM, Word, Notepad, and several images in Photoshop. Normally, much more than that, and that didn't even feel slow.

I don't have a real point here though. Just a memory. The experience would probably feel unbearable with today's expectations.

I was multitasking (not very well) on a Mac plus with 256k of RAM, it worked a bit better when I upgraded to 1MB of RAM, Mac OS 6.5 ran alright, I could never get OS7 onto 700k floppies, good thing I had a 20MB hard drive.

re: mr HTC guy (unrelated), I often edit photo's on my iPhone, WinMo's 65k colour restriction makes it unsuitable for this purpose and I have insurance on my iPhone maybe it's different in Australia.

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"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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post #117 of 139
3/16/09 at 1:24pm
I'm not sure how you figure this is a different issue. Being able to use your finger to accurately select text is a major part of touch screen copy and paste, without that copy and paste doesn't work.

Yes this is a problem for other parts of the iPhone UI but these issues have solutions. The primary solution to this problem is to make text and buttons that are large enough to make accurate targets for fingers. The secondary solution to this problem is the double tap zoom to make text and targets large enough for fingers.

Neither of those solutions elegantly help you select or paste a limited amount of text from a paragraph of text.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mechengit View Post

The issue you mentioned is a concern. However, this is entirely another different issue that could affect the whole iPhone UI rather than just the selecting text issue.
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post #118 of 139
3/16/09 at 2:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivan.rnn01 View Post

Then I beg you to look through posts #100-102 having already discussed your concern. What you wrote about is ugly solution being somehow useful only for desktop systems, not for mobile those. Take iPhone with you in moving car, on the passenger seat, sure. Try to zoom, then to select a block taping-holding as you propose, you'll see it for yourself.


That is exactly where the problem's laying. I watched the video Solipsism pointed to. It doesn't get to the final point either.
The paradigm of pointing devices for desktop systems implies two states of those devices:
  1. repositioning/pointing
  2. selecting
There is the reliable and easily detected switch between these two states. This is not the case for iPhone.

So the most reliable (yet ugly) solution for touchscreen mobile devices would be the toggle button "iSelect" (like "Determine your location" in Maps application).

The elegant solution remains to be found by Apple...

I already replied post #102 in post #107 to point out that you're still stuck with the concept that cursor has to act the way it is in desktop computers, even now. The post in #89 already addressed the two states of repositioning/pointing and selecting issue you mentioned, which iPhone software can theoretically help switch the two states. I'm the one wants to beg you to read through what I wrote before you keep mentioning the issue that you think I did not address when I already did.

I did not reply post #100 because it is simply too hard to convince the efficiency of a interface method in theory. The theory I mentioned might not be the best way, but it's feasible and it does not conflict with the current iPhone UI and gestures.
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post #119 of 139
3/16/09 at 2:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I'm not sure how you figure this is a different issue. Being able to use your finger to accurately select text is a major part of touch screen copy and paste, without that copy and paste doesn't work.

Yes this is a problem for other parts of the iPhone UI but these issues have solutions. The primary solution to this problem is to make text and buttons that are large enough to make accurate targets for fingers. The secondary solution to this problem is the double tap zoom to make text and targets large enough for fingers.

Neither of those solutions elegantly help you select or paste a limited amount of text from a paragraph of text.

You somewhat answered your question yourself. What I meant by different issues is because I'm saying that the issue you raised is not a gesture conflict issue that my original post was arguing against. My post that I made earlier was to respond to those who are concern about the gesture conflicts, which is different from what your concern is over here. I think your concern is valid and should be treated as a different issue besides the gesture conflict.

My question to you is why can't the magnify glass be the solution of selecting text when it is already feasible in the iPhone regarding the pixel issue. No offense here. I don't like the magnify glass that much, but at least it is feasible.
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post #120 of 139
3/16/09 at 3:29pm
All of these issues are intertwined. All of these problems have to be solved to make the entire process work. You are correct the magnifying glass is a good solution for selecting text. The problem is a conflict in gestures. The magnifying glass is currently used to move the curser. There needs to be some intuitive way to inform the phone that you want to use the magnifying glass to select text instead of using it to only move the curser.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mechengit View Post

My question to you is why can't the magnify glass be the solution of selecting text when it is already feasible in the iPhone regarding the pixel issue. No offense here. I don't like the magnify glass that much, but at least it is feasible.
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