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Apple close to unveiling guarded Snow Leopard UI overhaul - Page 2

post #41 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgetang View Post

I've notice that Safari takes too much memory and crash pretty often....

Yup. Safari uses way too many resources.

I find Camino uses much less processing power.
post #42 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by bzuniga View Post

Haven't we seen this confluence of events before? Anticipated June release for new phone hardware + new phone software, plus an anticipated August debut for a major OS release (e.g.-Leopard) resulted in Leopard being delayed until October.

It would seem to me that the anticipated new iPhone hardware (iPhone 3,1) + a major iPhone OS revamp (iPhone OS 3.0) could mean a repeat of the Mac OS delay that hit Leopard. There are only so many people working at Apple. And don't kid yourself, these are all MAJOR refreshes of hardware and software.

If Apple sits on the new UI theme, this would likely only exacerbate the problem.

I would love to see all 3 of these drop within two months of each other, although my pocket book won't; but I just don't see this happening. I wouldn't be surprised to see Snow Leopard slip back a couple of months. Sorry about throwing cold water on you! My bucket is now empty.

Welcome to the boards bzuniga

Yeah I'd say that if they show Snow Leopard in June and then do not deliver until Aug/Sept then I'd consider that being delayed because Jobs' said about a year during WWDC 2008. Though I wouldn't call the delay egregious in any way.

I think the iPhone SDK 3.0 will certainly get preference and ship in June with new iPhone hardware. Then the team will breakneck to get Snow Leopard to Final Candidate polish and release in 60 days. A tall order indeed.
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post #43 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

About 28% of Mac users are still on PPC machines. They won't agree with you on getting rid of Universal. I don't see it as making that much of a difference to most people, though it might happen.

You do realize that Snow Leopard is Intel only. This whatever features are or aren't in Snow Leopard will not matter to any PPC owners.
post #44 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolfactor View Post

The rebuild of Finder in Leopard was a good step forward, but Finder needs some serious love in order to make it as powerful as many of their apps are now. Other than the redesigned window layouts and integration with things like QuickLook, it doesn't seem like any new real functionality has been added to Finder in many many years. There's so much they could do with it.

What would you like to see in the Finder? I think a lot of people want more flexibility but often it's hard to find a consensus as to what features people want/need.
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post #45 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Just the opposite... they're pulling developers from the iPhone team to work on SNL

The developers are going to work on Saturday Night Live?

I'm sure they couldn't do worse than the current writers.
post #46 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by OriginalMacRat View Post

You are just too logical!

Should we believe that the rumor mills are making stuff up?

I also agree that the 10.6 GUI is final and they are working on bugs under the hood.

Making up what? It's still March. Even if it's delivered in June some time, that's still 2.5 months away, at least.

They could show it in late April, and still give enough heads up.

The final builds don't start moving up in speed until the last month.
post #47 of 123
Those colors look awfully familiar .... does it remind anyone of the default Solaris, maybe? Can't say I am particularly fond of them .... I like the present ones better.
post #48 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by OriginalMacRat View Post

You do realize that Snow Leopard is Intel only. This whatever features are or aren't in Snow Leopard will not matter to any PPC owners.

Apple hasn't made the definitive statement regarding PPC support so I guess anything goes here. Though I doubt we see PPC support and I do not recommend we see PPC support.

Breaking with legacy is difficult but I want a lean n mean OS that is optimized for the dominant hardware ISA and that's x86.

I like knowing that if an app in Snow Leopard only it's going to be strictly optimized for Intel based Macs.
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post #49 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I keep reading, in articles and posts, that Apple isn't going to introduce new features with 10.6.

This isn't true. Nowhere did Apple say this. They did say that they would be concentrating on rewriting the OS, and adding features under the hood, many of which we now know about.

But there are features we, as consumers, will see as well. There are features that we've already seen hints of in Leopard that developers only are working with. This includes the many times over the years discussion of resolution independence. That's a possibility.

I also can't believe
that Apple would wait until the last minute on showing to developers a wholly new GUI. They will have to see this enough in advance. They may have to rework their own interfaces as a result.

I'm sure we will see features, some major. How many is another question.

I can. We did it at NeXT. When all of your application space can leverage the changes via InterfaceBuilder it's not that difficult to "flick the switch", so to speak.
post #50 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by OriginalMacRat View Post

You do realize that Snow Leopard is Intel only. This whatever features are or aren't in Snow Leopard will not matter to any PPC owners.

This is what we generally hear.

But your response isn't to what I actually said in response to Georgetang.

He wants to see them dropping Universal support. I said that 28% of Mac users who are still using PPC's aren't too happy about that prospect.

I also said that to most people, getting rid of Universal support won't matter much (because of file sizes, which is what he was commenting upon).

The fact that PPC people won't get ANY of these features, many of which can work just fine on PPC machines, if Apple wanted to bother, is something that will tick them off.

There's nothing wrong in any of that.
post #51 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

I can. We did it at NeXT. When all of your application space can leverage the changes via InterfaceBuilder it's not that difficult to "flick the switch", so to speak.

I'm not arguing that there aren't "automatic" processes going on. I'm saying that interfaces designed for, say, black type on a white, or light grey background, don't always work well the other way around.

I did publishing work when I had my company, and we were always reworking things around, depending on what was wanted.

Dark backgrounds often require different typefaces. It also usually required a bolder typeface. That's just one element.

Will XCode change everything around so that it meets the developers standards? Moving from color to greyshades also requires the reworking of graphic elements. Will XCode do this as well? There are a bunch of niggling little things that would have to be redone if Apple goes to this new "color" palette.

What about rez independence? Will it take care of all that as well? Developers won't have to design new icons, graphics, and images?

One of the reasons we were given as to why we weren't given rez independence in 10.5, even though it is there for developers, was because they would have to redo their GUI's. You're saying this is wrong?
post #52 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I keep reading, in articles and posts, that Apple isn't going to introduce new features with 10.6.

This isn't true. Nowhere did Apple say this.

They need a starting point so they can bitch about it costing $129 even though they will probably pirate a copy anyway.


Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

First, major developers get it. Then, later, others will too.

By the time they do, it doesn't matter if it gets released. If fact, all of us here want to see it as soon as possible. Neither MS or any other OS developer can us it in the two months or so before it come out, so it won't matter.

I think this will get delayed until late summer, and we get our first official look at the UI at the WWDC. That will give developers some time to make some changes. Of course, I expect to see leaks of the interface before it's officially released.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

The Apple developer community is not what it used to be. There are hundreds of useless slackers that are a part of the developer program only so they can search through the code and violate their NDAs trying to be the first to release pics to Gizmodo or some other similar low-brow site.

I am one of those useless slackers you speak of but I don't post any screenshots and never talk about features that have not been announced.
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post #53 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by adisor19 View Post

I haven't seen ANY trace of change in all of the SL builds that have come out so i'm not holding my breath. This would be a MAJOR feature indeed if Apple decides to pull a rabbit out of the had with 10.6

Has anyone out there noticed any improvement/code changes in regards to RI ?

Adi

Safari 4's form widgets display resolution independence, when utilizing the Zoom functionality... that's a baby step.
post #54 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

They need a starting point so they can bitch about it costing $129 even though they will probably pirate a copy anyway.

Heh! Possible.

Quote:
I think this will get delayed until late summer, and we get our first official look at the UI at the WWDC. That will give developers some time to make some changes. Of course, I expect to see leaks of the interface before it's officially released.

It could get delayed. With all the talk about it being released in March, or by some even nuttier people, last January, I would hope it won't be. Right now, I'm assuming it's going to be about on time. I would consider it to be on time if it came in by the end of July.

Nevertheless, I think that Apple will show the rest of the features about two months before release, or at least, a month before.
post #55 of 123
I just want to know if anyone with a developer release is noticing wicked fast speed increases (especially on last year's Mac Pro). Anyone?
post #56 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnmcboston View Post

August: Snow Leopard and quad core imacs? I'd be happy :-)

Apple should have delivered at least one Quad core iMac during the last rev. This would have giving the people in the know something to buy as simply knowing about Snow Leopard is enough to want a Quad core machine. The otherthing of course is a low cost Quad platform for developers.

The current lack of a Quad core iMac is one of Apples bigger bone headed moves. They atleast needed one machine during the last rev.

As to SL I do expect some use interface changes but don't see it as a big deal. I'm expecting that those major under the hood changes will benefit us owners of older intel hardware. At the very least they better fix WiFI on my MBP from early 2008. Apples inability to establish a reliable WiFi connection with these machines on many networks ought to be a major embarrassment. It is the one low level problem that I see them having to fix.

Don't get me wrong the other improvements that should come with SL are highly desired too. Especially GPU processing / acceleration. This should be better than a machine upgrade for me. I'm not one to believe SL will work miricals as I think some do, but it ought to really enhance a MBP of this age. Maybe I should say it better as I'm going to be a bit ticked off if Apple doesn't agressively implement the new software features on relatively new hardware.

Oh I think SL will ship at WWDC and each of us will patiently wait for 10.6,1 to come out to stabilize the platform.



Dave
post #57 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

I can. We did it at NeXT. When all of your application space can leverage the changes via InterfaceBuilder it's not that difficult to "flick the switch", so to speak.

It will be interesting to see where this new interface leaves Adobe. The Creative Suite UI may look even more out of place on a Mac than ever before. In the meantime, all the newer, leaner creative apps (Pixelmator, Lineform, Freeway, iStudio etc.) will look right at home in Snow Leopard.

If Apple gave Core Image the ability to do CMYK in Snow Leopard, Adobe would be in serious trouble on the Mac.
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post #58 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

About 28% of Mac users are still on PPC machines. They won't agree with you on getting rid of Universal. I don't see it as making that much of a difference to most people, though it might happen.

+1 for the PPC column.
post #59 of 123
I say we start the betting now. I bet 50 quat-lews that Microsoft has an announcement (any announcement and usually a vaporware one at that) the same day as an Apple announcement.

Done just to try and steal Apple thunder. :-) ??

50 quat-lews, Anyone? Anyone? Beulewer, Beulewer?

Just a thought.
en
post #60 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by chromos View Post

Safari 4's form widgets display resolution independence, when utilizing the Zoom functionality... that's a baby step.

Making sure that all the elements of a document scale up and down uniformly together is a commendable effort. But that doesn't mesh with my understanding of the original intent behind resolution independence.

It was more to do with being able to define the size and proportions of user interface elements in terms of absolute physical dimensions (eg. inches), and having those elements appear to be the same size on every monitor, no matter how dense or coarse that monitor's DPI (resolution) happens to be.

On the other hand, widgets that scale properly as documents zoom in and out may very well use many of the same technologies under the hood as my understanding of resolution independence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by georgetang

well, I just want they improve the software and get rid of Universal support...

I've notice that Safari takes too much memory and crash pretty often...

With Snow Leopard, the OS and software foot print would reduce a lot, same with memory allocation, which I hope it'll improve performance and stability....

I don't know for sure, but does OS X actually allocate RAM for the whole application image when you're running a universal app? Doesn't it only load the portion of the application image that belongs to the architecture which is actually running?

As well, I think the Universal Binary system is also the mechanism by which Apple distributes both 32-bit and 64-bit versions of an application in the same package.
post #61 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by lfmorrison View Post

Making sure that all the elements of a document scale up and down uniformly together is a commendable effort. But that doesn't mesh with my understanding of the original intent behind resolution independence.

It was more to do with being able to define the size and proportions of user interface elements in terms of absolute physical dimensions (eg. inches), and having those user interfaces appear to be the same size on every monitor, no matter how dense or coarse that monitor's DPI (resolution) happens to be.

On the other hand, widgets that scale properly as documents zoom in and out may very well use many of the same technologies under the hood as my understanding of resolution independence.

Your understanding of Resolution Independence is EXACTLY what it is supposed to be in its true meaning. Having 2 monitors with various pixel sizes and resolutions look the same to the user is what RI will bring to the table once Apple gets it out the door.

I do have a feeling that this will only happen with 10.7 as i haven't seen any progress being done on any of the 10.6 builds. Worse yet, this may be even further delayed as i really don't see it how they could make Carbon apps resolution independent without some major problems. If Apple dumps Carbon in 10.7 or 10.8, then chances are we will then see RI released. All this is IMO of course.

Adi
post #62 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by adisor19 View Post

Your understanding of Resolution Independence is EXACTLY what it is supposed to be in its true meaning. Having 2 monitors with various pixel sizes and resolutions look the same to the user is what RI will bring to the table once Apple gets it out the door.

I do have a feeling that this will only happen with 10.7 as i haven't seen any progress being done on any of the 10.6 builds. Worse yet, this may be even further delayed as i really don't see it how they could make Carbon apps resolution independent without some major problems. If Apple dumps Carbon in 10.7 or 10.8, then chances are we will then see RI released. All this is IMO of course.

Adi

If they wait that long, even MS will have it!

They've dumped older parts of the system before, they can do it again.

They've put developers on notice that Carbon's days are numbered. I think they get it now. As most apps that matter are already on Cocoa, or will be shortly, it's not too much of a problem. The developers that haven't yet jumped will, once rez independence is here, and their competitors are taking advantage of it.
post #63 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagromme View Post

Yes, please!

Snow Leopard may be MAINLY focused under the hood, but user-facing changes are always welcome too.

I'll be sorry to see the shiny blue scrollbars go, but I'll withhold judgement until I see the feel of the UI as a whole. Change is always jarring, but also fun!

Don't assume these change will be for the better. I'm frankly worried what Apple might do with the OS. I definitely do not want this marble theme as describe system wide.
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post #64 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

You've all been punked by Apple's clever ruse... the new UI features a hot-pink theme, with slide whistle sound effects.

I knew it!
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post #65 of 123
Steve's master plan is to bring this full circle and have Apple's neXT user interface, in monochromatic shades of grey.
post #66 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Apple hasn't made the definitive statement regarding PPC support so I guess anything goes here. Though I doubt we see PPC support and I do not recommend we see PPC support.

Breaking with legacy is difficult but I want a lean n mean OS that is optimized for the dominant hardware ISA and that's x86.

I like knowing that if an app in Snow Leopard only it's going to be strictly optimized for Intel based Macs.

You do realize that as soon as the majority of Apple users switch to Intel Macs, Apple will want to enlist AMD.

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post #67 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnmcboston View Post

August: Snow Leopard and quad core imacs? I'd be happy :-)

You will never be happy if you look for happiness in technology
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post #68 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by macosxp View Post

I would just HATE for them to remove the blue glass scroll bars and replace them with some ugly Linux style like they have in iTunes.

So what do I do? I dislike both the blue and the gray ones.
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post #69 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Don't assume these change will be for the better. I'm frankly worried what Apple might do with the OS. I definitely do not want this marble theme as describe system wide.

Given that the "marble" theme as described is only ever so slightly different from what we have now, could you be more specific about what's so horrible a about it?

Isn't the best way to go for any OS to try and get the GUI to fade into the background? How better to go about this than by sticking to muted greys and off-whites? How better than to implement a minimal, "no eye-candy" interface?

Other than the "black glass" overlays (which are neat, but come across as this year's version of the blue aqua buttons), I can't think of any direction other than the one they are moving in.
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post #70 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I keep reading, in articles and posts, that Apple isn't going to introduce new features with 10.6.

This isn't true. Nowhere did Apple say this.

Actually they did say this, in the original Snow Leopard press release: "... we hit the pause button on new features ..."

And Apple's Snow Leopard web page refers to "taking a break from adding new features".
post #71 of 123
I use multiple monitors a lot and one of the most frustrating things is the app menus in the MenuBar. So, please please please remove app menus from the MenuBar and put them in the app window in some fashion. I prefer right-click pop-up menus, but they could use the "gear" menu as seen in Safari 4 for Windows. They can go all out and use pop-up pie menus. That'll look cool.
post #72 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by THT View Post

I use multiple monitors a lot and one of the most frustrating things is the app menus in the MenuBar. So, please please please remove app menus from the MenuBar and put them in the app window in some fashion. I prefer right-click pop-up menus, but they could use the "gear" menu as seen in Safari 4 for Windows. They can go all out and use pop-up pie menus. That'll look cool.

Just out of curiosity, if they take the application's menus out of the menu bar, what will be left in the menu bar? I guess they could just eliminate it.

But we're talking about changing one of the elements of the user interface that has seen consistent treatment ever since the very first Macintosh. There would be plenty of resistance to that, and likely incompatibility with applications which don't expect to have to make space for their menus inside their window.
post #73 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Appleseed View Post

Actually they did say this, in the original Snow Leopard press release: "... we hit the pause button on new features ..."

And Apple's Snow Leopard web page refers to "taking a break from adding new features".

They probably don't mean literally, of course there will be new features, but not as much as before.
post #74 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Don't be so sure Apple won't release it then. I wouldn't be surprised if a very few of the largest developers have already seen it.

Even if they wrote Cocoa apps, changing the font and background colors could lead to poor legibility. I, for one, don't like the idea. Font size and weight could have to change among other things. It isn't a simple "Cocoa will take care of it".

Apple does what it thinks it needs to do. That doesn't mean that it "screwed over" developers.

I could go into countless times they screwed over the developers. I understand about the icons / fonts, but for a majority if they followed apple's human interface design guidelines there shouldn't be any problem.

Apple appears on the outside to help developers, when in reality they are just hurting themselves. For instance only providing coding headstarts and ADC on iTunes to developers willing to shell out $500 for a membership. That kind of stuff should be free so it promotes better development environments for the devs.

I'm sure a very few of the top companies HAVE seen it... i.e. adobe and such. But that doesn't help 99.99% of the developers out there. At the last WWDC SJ insinuated it would be out in about a year. Supposedly WWDC will be a little early this year, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was released during WWDC, or shortly after.

 

 

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post #75 of 123
Looks like they are taking inspiration from Adobe.
post #76 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by THT View Post

I use multiple monitors a lot and one of the most frustrating things is the app menus in the MenuBar. So, please please please remove app menus from the MenuBar and put them in the app window in some fashion. I prefer right-click pop-up menus, but they could use the "gear" menu as seen in Safari 4 for Windows. They can go all out and use pop-up pie menus. That'll look cool.

This is just a ridiculous statement. You obviously don't know much about the Mac UI at all.

It's the difference between an document centred UI (Windows) and an application centred UI (almost any Unix system and Macs). It's one of the main advantages of Macs in general and a central reason as to why the UI is easier to use than Windows.

To think that they should change the central differentiating factor of the OS so that it's like MS Windows, (which would break almost every application out there), just because people who use multiple monitors have a "hard time" with it is just nuts.
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post #77 of 123
Deleted.
post #78 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by emig647 View Post

Apple appears on the outside to help developers, when in reality they are just hurting themselves. For instance only providing coding headstarts and ADC on iTunes to developers willing to shell out $500 for a membership. That kind of stuff should be free so it promotes better development environments for the devs.

Sometimes I wish Apple would just charge a bit for Xcode like say <$200 and build in support for development through ADC on iTunes. They could continue to ship a free version for those dabbling but the paid version would come with more features and iTunes ADC.

As for me I'm looking for to UI polish. Hell I want to use my services menu again but it's a GD nightmare.

I don't care if it's flat or marbly or whatever I want it functional.
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post #79 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I keep reading, in articles and posts, that Apple isn't going to introduce new features with 10.6.

This isn't true. Nowhere did Apple say this.

WHen they announced SL I believe they did say quote "No new features."

On Apple's SL <a href = "http://www.apple.com/macosx/snowleopard/">page</a> it says:

"Taking a break from adding new features, Snow Leopard scheduled to ship in about a year builds on Leopards" etc. The article then goes on to discuss the new features, Exchange support, QT X, etc.

It's pretty clear that they are going to add new features, but for right now they haven't embraced that as a selling point for the OS. They are embracing a partial code rewrite which will make a more solid OS.
post #80 of 123
Flat is in. Bulbous glossy crap is out (see Win 7). They're going to go more towards iTunes and the Pro apps in style if I had to guess. This is a good thing.
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