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Microsoft to attack Mac pricing in new series of TV ads - Page 8

post #281 of 331
3/28/09 at 6:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kung Fu Guy View Post

7 pages of comment? Wow this ad really struck a nerve and put mac users on the defensive! This ad must have succeeded in its goal. MS strikes back! Even though I agree with most that it's a poor ad and a poor hp notebook. MS struck where it hurts the most to mac users. Pricing. All the explanations for macs being more expensive CANNOT counter MS attack. Maybe deep down we all wish we could buy a $699 mac.

After years on the defensive from those I'm a PC/mac ads. MS dishes it back to us. Surprised? Oddly this ad doesn't really benefit MS, but HP.

One punch and we've collectively have our mac underwear in a knot.

I don't understand the reasoning behind thinking that getting people talking on a Mac enthusiast site equals marketing success.

MS could run an ad claiming Macs give you venereal diseases, and it would certainly get a lot of posts here, but that wouldn't mean that it was an effective ad campaign, would it?

I also don't understand how telling people Macs cost more than PCs is any kind of big win for MS. It's pretty generally understood to be the case, is it not? Is there really a significant demographic that's going to view this ad and say to themselves "Say, I was thinking about switching from a PC to a Mac, but, I'll be damned, apparently they cost more! Forget it!"

I honestly think that the "Get a Mac" campaign plus Apple's recent market successes have gotten under MS's skin, and that this campaign is more of a "fuck you too" then a thought out strategy.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #282 of 331
3/28/09 at 7:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

"Say, I was thinking about switching from a PC to a Mac, but, I'll be damned, apparently they cost more! Forget it!"

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post #283 of 331
3/29/09 at 12:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Whew, thanks for the heads-up. I did not realize we were in a depression! I'll sell all my AAPL tomorrow. And, buy and hold MSFT for 5 years, riding out the recessi..... er..... depression.

Hey, hold MSFT for ten years and you might get stellar returns of selling your stock for 50% less what you paid for it. Seriously, it is sad to see what has happened since Windows 98 was released to the once-great Microsoft Corporation and it's market value.
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post #284 of 331
3/29/09 at 8:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by yvo84 View Post

LOL, i just watched the ad.

It actually makes people want to buy a Mac lol.

"I guess i'm not cool enough to be a Mac person" .. oh dear

To me, true meaning of that sentence is "I guess I'm not silly enough to buy overpriced Mac and think I'm suddenly cool just because I own it".

Of course, some people around here can't recognize irony if it does not come from that Mac Guy but trust me, it's there...
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post #285 of 331
3/30/09 at 2:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

To me, true meaning of that sentence is "I guess I'm not silly enough to buy overpriced Mac and think I'm suddenly cool just because I own it".

Of course, some people around here can't recognize irony if it does not come from that Mac Guy but trust me, it's there...

Of course that's what MS intended, but the problem is the idea that people buy Macs because they want to appear "cool" has always been an something of an exaggeration from the bitter dregs of the PC universe.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #286 of 331
3/30/09 at 7:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hillstones View Post

More realistically, they will avoid going to Best Buy to buy a computer.

well.. I went to Best Buy with the intention of buying either a new PC or a laptop. The sales lady was pretty helpful and asked what I was using my computer for (photography) she suggested the iMac. The price was well within my range. Now that I am the proud owner of a Mac I will NEVER go back to PC.
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post #287 of 331
3/30/09 at 8:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by evanmixon View Post

its pretty much showing us all how cheap, and low down PC's are...
everyone will now start to save for a Mac!
=]

People should be saving their money anyway.

Why spend $400 for a piece of crap plastic machine with "WINDERS" that runs like WINDERS 95 on Mark McGuiroids when you can SAVE YOUR MONEY for when the economy gets a little better then get a new hotness MacBook or MacBook Pro?
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post #288 of 331
3/30/09 at 8:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

To me, true meaning of that sentence is "I guess I'm not silly enough to buy overpriced Mac and think I'm suddenly cool just because I own it".

Of course, some people around here can't recognize irony if it does not come from that Mac Guy but trust me, it's there...

The term 'overpriced' is somewhat debatable.

Is a computer that is so low in price that it is total crap in design and implementation and the OS it runs is poorly written really a good deal? If so I know some cars in Russia the lady should buy too.

On the other hand does a computer that enables a good profit for the manufacturer and therefore the hiring of the brightest and smartest in the industry that can create an OS that is light years ahead and design hardware that is truly awesome ... make for a bad deal?

Plus remember the latter computer is still worth 50% of its initial price three years later whereas the former one is landfill fodder (and not even green at that!).

There is an old adage that fits here ... M$ buyers beware ... 'you get what you pay for'

Is that irony?
Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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post #289 of 331
3/31/09 at 11:41am
Having owned a Mac in the past (and intending to buy one in the future), currently owning a custom-built PC running Ubuntu Linux 9.04 and a laptop running Windows XP Home (primarily used by my wife), I can see the pros and cons of all three computer configurations.

What I don't understand is the need some feel to "correct" (or berate or belittle) others who clearly are happy (or profess to be happy) with their current setup if it doesn't conform to their own ideal.

Personaly, I like Macs. I like their unique, stylish, functional, space-saving form factors. I like the high quality, durable materials with which they are constructed. I like all the little nuances--the magnetic power connectors on the laptops, back-lit keyboards, slot-loading optical drives. I like their OS, which does most of the things I need to do with a computer on a regular basis, and does them very well. If ever I need to do something that only Windows can do (build an Access database, run an app not supported on Mac OS X, etc.), if it's an Intel Mac I can run Windows in a VirtualBox (seamless mode, FTW), or I can use boot camp. Heck, I can even run Linux on there and have the best of 3 worlds running on one machine LEGALLY.

Speaking of which, I am one of the apparent minority that believes media/software piracy is wrong. If I want to run Windows, I'll run a licensed, legal copy of it (but I prefer to not give Microsoft any more money than I have to, so I run Linux on my custom desktop). Same with Mac OS X, which per the EULA--which I agree to when I purchase the software--should only be run on Apple hardware.

I also very much enjoy building my own computers, which is why I own a custom built PC.

However, if I were given the choice of having any (one) computer I wanted, it would be an Intel Mac for the resons described above. It can run OS X (LEGALLY), Windows, and Linux. For me, it would be the ultimate computing machine.

Is price a concern for me? I can't say that it's not. I am not wealthy. In fact, I'm trying to dig myself out of debt like most people out there. I am fully aware that for $450-$500 I could build a nice quad-core machine that would run Windows and Linux, be plenty fast for my needs, and do just about anything that I'd want to do.

But it wouldn't be a Mac. Even if I made it a "hackintosh", it would not be a Mac. It would be OS X running on cheap PC parts with none of the nuances that make the Mac experience so enjoyable.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #290 of 331
3/31/09 at 12:25pm
Nice post, jazzguru.

In my experience, you're not an atypical Mac user in that you just like how Apple builds its machines and software.

Which is why the whole "ha ha I guess I'm not cool enough to own a Mac" seems like such a childish and wrongheaded tactic. It's like the ad agency MS used has been hanging out in the comment sections of tech sites, and decided that the PC geek vitriol that is a staple at such places somehow captures the mood of the buying public.

I think that people that would never consider a Mac, be it for price, some odd cultural notion, or whatever, will continue to never consider a Mac and probably get a chuckle, or a sense of vindication, out of the MS ad.

For everybody else, I dunno. Does the MS ad even register as anything interesting?
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #291 of 331
3/31/09 at 1:26pm
Thanks, addabox.

It occurs to me that the M$ ads are only taking advantage of a sentiment that seems to be prevalent during the economic turmoil of late: that anyone who has lots of money and spends it on things that are perceived as "luxurious" or "expensive" is evil and corrupt, must have obtained his/her wealth by exploiting the "less fortunate", and deserves to be subject to scorn, ridicule, and even punishment. Whether this sentiment is justified is another matter entirely, but the sentiment is definitely there.

M$ recognizes this and is trying to play it in their favor (as many other companies are...I've lost track of how many ads I've seen/heard that start with some mention of a recession or the bad economy), but I doubt it will accomplish anything more than further polarizing the two sides.

It's a classic case of class warfare, and M$ is just trying to stir the pot a little.

I'm one of those old-fashioned people that believes that if you've earned your money playing by the rules, you should have the right to spend it however you wish. Even on Macs.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #292 of 331
3/31/09 at 6:14pm
My personal opinion on all this wrangling is that Apple's transition to Intel have blurred the differences in hardware between Apple and generic PCs. Previously, there were Power PCs chips with separate chipsets and other different hardwares.

With the transition to generic parts from Intel and other manufacturers, their hardware have suddenly became more price transparent. Everybody now knows exactly the price for each hardware part. Thus, this overprice debate is raging on.

I am a MAC user but I have to admit that the hardware in recent updates have been very overpriced. I am still willing to be a MAC user is strictly because of the software. If one day Apple screw up on OS X, there would no longer be any reason to buy Apple computers anymore. Till then, their leverage on the industry is always the software. I would like to see MS take on Apple in the realm of the operating system instead of pricing and 'cool factors'.

I also have sympathy for MS in that they have to create a software to cater to millions of apps and thousands of manufacturer with each having different requirements.

On the other side of the coin, if apple is to say rule the computing world, I would imagine that computing would not evolve so quickly and the different variations of hardware would also be very much subdued. Their main advantage is that their OS X does not need to cater to so many different versions of hardware, it must be apple made.

So the saga continues, Apple may have improved on the computing experience but if there is no MS, imagine a world without $99 external harddisk, $30 wireless adaptors, $10 wireless mouse. MS will always be here. Apple is not and will not be a direct contender with MS. At most, I consider Apple to be a variant competitor. They can offer a different view on the concept of computing. However, mainstream computing is still in the world of MS.

I need a PC because of the multiple third party apps, cheap hardware and other readily available components. I strong believe that both Apple and MS can co-exist peacefully and there is no point for anyone to emerge as the sole winner. For consumers, at least we have a choice between Apple and MS. I just hope that Apple does not self destruct like in the 90s cause if they screw up one more time, I am confident that the market would not be so kind this time round as the competition heats up.

Till then, long live MS and Apple for these two companies have really changed my life.
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post #293 of 331
3/31/09 at 6:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

The term 'overpriced' is somewhat debatable.

Is a computer that is so low in price that it is total crap in design and implementation and the OS it runs is poorly written really a good deal? If so I know some cars in Russia the lady should buy too.

On the other hand does a computer that enables a good profit for the manufacturer and therefore the hiring of the brightest and smartest in the industry that can create an OS that is light years ahead and design hardware that is truly awesome ... make for a bad deal?

Plus remember the latter computer is still worth 50% of its initial price three years later whereas the former one is landfill fodder (and not even green at that!).

There is an old adage that fits here ... M$ buyers beware ... 'you get what you pay for'

Is that irony?

Of course price is debatable. I am representing my point of view, which you might not share.

Then again, for me your point is pure cliché.

Insisting that all PCs are lower built quality than Macs, that is. True you can buy some cheap systems (or components if you prefer to build yourself) but you can also get high-end parts and still save significant money compared to Macs.

Since I've just built my new system, let me give you an example. Prices are in New Zealand Dollars, and, though I did build it myself, I could have it built in the shop I've purchased parts from for free (so I didn't save anything regarding that):

CPU: Intel C2Q 9550 2.83GHz
Motherboard: Gigabyte GA EP45 - UD3R
RAM: 8GB G-Skill Black Edition DDR2 900 4-4-4-12
HDD: WD 1TB
Power: Silverstone Decathlon 650W modular
Case: Lian-Li PC-7S aluminium
Monitor: Samsung 24" (still choosing it)
Graphics: HT ATI Radeon 4870 1GB
OS: Vista Ultimate 64 OEM (already had it but for fair compare)

If you are interested in hardware, you'll find out that - quality wise - all parts are high end. I actually sacrificed going Intel i7/X58 platform for getting top quality parts for C2Q/P45 platform.

All together, price will be (once I have my monitor) between NZ$3000 and 3100.

Here in NZ, 24" iMac with C2D 2.93/4GB/640GB/GT120 would cost me NZ$4000 (official Apple price - could be a bit cheaper on street, not sure). And it is still way bellow specs wise.

Entry Mac Pro with single 2.66GHz Xeon/3GB/650GB/GT120 would cost me NZ$5600. I think my system can hold it's ground against it - and then some.

Back to the original question - quality. What do we really know about Mac quality - regarding components? For example, I know that my motherboard comes with all solid state caps, 2oz copper layer (compared to common 1oz - for better heat distribution and cooling), ferrite core chokes, lower resistance MOSFETS, heatpipe cooler design for chipset etc. But what do we know about motherboards in iMacs? Who is behind Apple's power supplies and what are characteristics? RAM chips manufacturer..?

All I can see is perceived quality... but from what I could read about various problems different Mac models and generations have/had, I'm not convinced that perceived quality really translates in actual quality.

At the end of a day, I'm still interested in having one OS X machine in my household, but I'm finding harder and harder to justify what I see as Apple's attempt to use great OS to sell me overpriced (and often outdated) hardware with good looks but unknown and questionable components quality. I would be very happy if Apple would explain - in details - why are their configurations so much more expensive than PC. Maybe I would change my position on pricing issue. But i doubt that. I don't believe that parts inside Apple desktops (primarily) and notebooks are anything out of ordinary. No magic there. If there was any, I'm sure Apple would talk about that much more as an argument to justify pricing.

And just one more short remark (true story, I swear); Last year I got beautiful, shiny all-aluminium external 2.5" CollerMaster X-Craft HDD enclosure, with great carry case, polishing cloth, manual... for NZ$50 (at the time); one of best looking enclosures I have seen (and exact reason why I purchased it impulsively).

All fine... except my 160GB WD HDD had all kind of problems with enclosure. Quick search showed a lot of people experiencing various problems with different X-craft enclosures. I got darn thing back and got cheap, NZ$15 ICZ enclosure. No polished aluminium, no fancy holster and polishing cloth.

But it works brilliantly.

And you don't always get what you paid for. Sometimes you get great bargain. Other times you might be ripped off.
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post #294 of 331
3/31/09 at 7:28pm
I don't thing that it makes any sense to compare Apple's prices with home built PCs.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #295 of 331
3/31/09 at 10:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

I don't thing that it makes any sense to compare Apple's prices with home built PCs.

It was home built only because I wanted it that way. I could also select parts on-line, have shop puting them together, installing OS, drivers and updates and have computer delivered to me the next day.

I don't see difference between this or, say, Dell/HP/any on-line configurator..?
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post #296 of 331
4/1/09 at 12:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

It was home built only because I wanted it that way. I could also select parts on-line, have shop puting them together, installing OS, drivers and updates and have computer delivered to me the next day.

I don't see difference between this or, say, Dell/HP/any on-line configurator..?

Price. It's always going to be cheaper to built it yourself.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #297 of 331
4/1/09 at 3:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Price. It's always going to be cheaper to built it yourself.

You didn't read carefully. Here in NZ most shops will build it for free - much as I am aware of (or, if you prefer, their labour is included in their retail prices margin). Same thing if you want to reconfigure Dell or any other brand on-line - you pay extra for parts, not for labour.

The only reason I'm building it myself is that I am enjoying it.
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post #298 of 331
4/1/09 at 3:13am
I bought a PC. AMD and ATI offering great value right now. Vista is garbage though. Couldn't get my new PC up and running properly to game, just used XP2 Pro and all is good.
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post #299 of 331
4/1/09 at 3:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

It was home built only because I wanted it that way. I could also select parts on-line, have shop puting them together, installing OS, drivers and updates and have computer delivered to me the next day.

I don't see difference between this or, say, Dell/HP/any on-line configurator..?

I was frustrated with Dell/HP because just to have a 4830 series ATI and a better power supply, you end up paying lots more for their "XPS" or "Studio" versions... And HP don't even have any decent mid-range gaming PCs! Much cheaper to assemble yourself or have your local shop put together parts for you.

(I'm not in the US so not so much easily accessible "beige-box" online configuration companies)
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post #300 of 331
4/1/09 at 3:18am
How's your Silverstone? I just got a 500W for my AMD 7750 BE and ATI 4830 build... Went AMD instead of Intel because for dualcore much less expensive in terms of CPU and motherboards! Don't need a quadcore because my bottleneck will be GPU especially when I get my 20" somewhere down the line this year. And just regular 2GB 800mhz works fine for my gaming needs at 1280x1024... In Windows XP, Vista was giving a lot of install/driver problems, and I didn't want to shell out more $$$ for Vista 64bit with Windows 7 around the corner. That 4870 is nice... 4890 would be nicer when it comes out...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

Of course price is debatable. I am representing my point of view, which you might not share.

Then again, for me your point is pure cliché.

Insisting that all PCs are lower built quality than Macs, that is. True you can buy some cheap systems (or components if you prefer to build yourself) but you can also get high-end parts and still save significant money compared to Macs.

Since I've just built my new system, let me give you an example. Prices are in New Zealand Dollars, and, though I did build it myself, I could have it built in the shop I've purchased parts from for free (so I didn't save anything regarding that):

CPU: Intel C2Q 9550 2.83GHz
Motherboard: Gigabyte GA EP45 - UD3R
RAM: 8GB G-Skill Black Edition DDR2 900 4-4-4-12
HDD: WD 1TB
Power: Silverstone Decathlon 650W modular
Case: Lian-Li PC-7S aluminium
Monitor: Samsung 24" (still choosing it)
Graphics: HT ATI Radeon 4870 1GB
OS: Vista Ultimate 64 OEM (already had it but for fair compare)

....
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post #301 of 331
4/1/09 at 3:29am
Oh, by the way I should point out for day-to-day stuff and especially for work I can't go by without a MacBook. (MacBook Pro would be nice, but that's another topic... ) ... On my trusty white MacBook Core Duo 3 year warranty (Applecare) runs out in a month's time...!
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post #302 of 331
4/1/09 at 6:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Ko View Post

This might make sense if Dell or HP did it, though their high end offerings are expensive too.

Microsoft offers various stripped and crippled versions of their OS; Home Basic Edition ($199.95), Home Premium Edition ($259.95), Business ($299.95) and Ultimate ($319.95).

Apple just sells one full version ($129.00).

MS may be setting themselves up again....

Those prices are presented in a highly misleading light.

If somebody is going into a store to purchase a retail boxed copy of Windows Vista, then it can only be for a few reasons:
1) They have a totally blank PC that has never had a Windows operating system on it before. I'd postulate that comprises a statistically insignificant number of people, since most new big-brand PCs would have come with an OEM copy of Windows already, and DIYers in-the-know would have purchased an OEM edition of Vista to install on it, or, more likely probably wouldn't have chosen Windows as their operating system in the first place. (None of the OEM editions are more expensive than the corresponding retail upgrade editions, and in most cases, are quite a bit cheaper than the retail upgrade editions.)

2) They are upgrading a PC running a version of Windows prior to Windows 2000, and thus it's ineligible for the upgrade editions. This would also be a relatively insignificant demographic, because those PCs likely have hardware that's old enough now that they wouldn't deliver satisfying performance under Windows Vista anyway.

3) They are upgrading a PC running Windows 2000 or Windows XP. Those people would purchase the upgrade edition of Windows Vista with different prices than you listed. This category would comprise the vast majority of users who would be interested in purchasing a retail box of Windows Vista. And yes, it is possible to perform a "clean" install, or to transition from the 32-bit edition of the former operating system to the 64-bit edition of the new operating system, using an upgrade edition disc and license - it just requires you to prove the existence of the prior legitimate installation for 2000 or XP before it starts wiping the drive.
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post #303 of 331
4/1/09 at 6:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

How's your Silverstone? I just got a 500W for my AMD 7750 BE and ATI 4830 build... Went AMD instead of Intel because for dualcore much less expensive in terms of CPU and motherboards! Don't need a quadcore because my bottleneck will be GPU especially when I get my 20" somewhere down the line this year. And just regular 2GB 800mhz works fine for my gaming needs at 1280x1024... In Windows XP, Vista was giving a lot of install/driver problems, and I didn't want to shell out more $$$ for Vista 64bit with Windows 7 around the corner. That 4870 is nice... 4890 would be nicer when it comes out...?

Very happy with that Silverstone! Whisper quiet, and I really like those modular cables.

4870 - you got me there! I've quoted that card just to make my point (it is about NZ$500 here) but I haven't purchased it yet. I'm still using my nVidia 8800GT. Reason is, as you mentioned - I'm also waiting to see what is new part from ATI going to look like. That is why I still haven't got my 24" monitor yet as well.

Ah, Vista. My previous system was AMD 64 X2 4200+ on nForce4 Ultra motherboard. With that system I've moved from XP to Vista Business 32-bit after SP1 for Vista was released. My experience with Vista on that system was great - only thing I could not make working was almost 10 years old Microtek scanner. Last driver for that poor thing was for Windows 2000, though it was working OK on XP as well. I can't really blame MS - or even Microtek - for not supporting such old part any more. Everything else - including Creative X-Fi audio card, Logitech steering wheel etc. I was able to download stable driver for Vista. New system has Vista Ultimate 64 and again, didn't have problem with anything. Maybe it was just my good luck... or simple fact I did select parts from manufacturers with good reputation.

I didn't purchase Vista Ultimate as well (though I did quote regular OEM price in my example) - I'm "blessed" to be working for company that is Microsoft Gold Partner, and on one of MS presentations I've got copy of Ultimate for free. Otherwise I'd just decommission Vista 32 from my previous system and install it on new box until W7 comes out; buying it at this moment really would not make much sense in my case, except if MS would not promise some kind of almost free upgrade to W7.
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post #304 of 331
4/1/09 at 7:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

I was frustrated with Dell/HP because just to have a 4830 series ATI and a better power supply, you end up paying lots more for their "XPS" or "Studio" versions... And HP don't even have any decent mid-range gaming PCs! Much cheaper to assemble yourself or have your local shop put together parts for you.

(I'm not in the US so not so much easily accessible "beige-box" online configuration companies)

True that. But the way I see it, it is an additional bonus for being PC/Windows user - you do have an option. Even for someone who is not into hardware, it does not require much time or effort to check site like anandtech.com, check one of their seasonal buyers guides, write down recommended parts, go to shop and ask for that configuration to be built for you. Sure it is a bit more effort than clicking on preconfigured model on Dell/HP site, but at least you end up knowing exactly what is in your box - and you likely save some money without compromising on parts quality (in fact likely ending with better quality).
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post #305 of 331
4/1/09 at 7:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

Of course price is debatable. I am representing my point of view, which you might not share.

Then again, for me your point is pure cliché.

Insisting that all PCs are lower built quality than Macs, that is. True you can buy some cheap systems (or components if you prefer to build yourself) but you can also get high-end parts and still save significant money compared to Macs.

Since I've just built my new system, let me give you an example. Prices are in New Zealand Dollars, and, though I did build it myself, I could have it built in the shop I've purchased parts from for free (so I didn't save anything regarding that):

CPU: Intel C2Q 9550 2.83GHz
Motherboard: Gigabyte GA EP45 - UD3R
RAM: 8GB G-Skill Black Edition DDR2 900 4-4-4-12
HDD: WD 1TB
Power: Silverstone Decathlon 650W modular
Case: Lian-Li PC-7S aluminium
Monitor: Samsung 24" (still choosing it)
Graphics: HT ATI Radeon 4870 1GB
OS: Vista Ultimate 64 OEM (already had it but for fair compare)

If you are interested in hardware, you'll find out that - quality wise - all parts are high end. I actually sacrificed going Intel i7/X58 platform for getting top quality parts for C2Q/P45 platform.

All together, price will be (once I have my monitor) between NZ$3000 and 3100.

Here in NZ, 24" iMac with C2D 2.93/4GB/640GB/GT120 would cost me NZ$4000 (official Apple price - could be a bit cheaper on street, not sure). And it is still way bellow specs wise.

Entry Mac Pro with single 2.66GHz Xeon/3GB/650GB/GT120 would cost me NZ$5600. I think my system can hold it's ground against it - and then some.

Back to the original question - quality. What do we really know about Mac quality - regarding components? For example, I know that my motherboard comes with all solid state caps, 2oz copper layer (compared to common 1oz - for better heat distribution and cooling), ferrite core chokes, lower resistance MOSFETS, heatpipe cooler design for chipset etc. But what do we know about motherboards in iMacs? Who is behind Apple's power supplies and what are characteristics? RAM chips manufacturer..?

All I can see is perceived quality... but from what I could read about various problems different Mac models and generations have/had, I'm not convinced that perceived quality really translates in actual quality.

At the end of a day, I'm still interested in having one OS X machine in my household, but I'm finding harder and harder to justify what I see as Apple's attempt to use great OS to sell me overpriced (and often outdated) hardware with good looks but unknown and questionable components quality. I would be very happy if Apple would explain - in details - why are their configurations so much more expensive than PC. Maybe I would change my position on pricing issue. But i doubt that. I don't believe that parts inside Apple desktops (primarily) and notebooks are anything out of ordinary. No magic there. If there was any, I'm sure Apple would talk about that much more as an argument to justify pricing.

And just one more short remark (true story, I swear); Last year I got beautiful, shiny all-aluminium external 2.5" CollerMaster X-Craft HDD enclosure, with great carry case, polishing cloth, manual... for NZ$50 (at the time); one of best looking enclosures I have seen (and exact reason why I purchased it impulsively).

All fine... except my 160GB WD HDD had all kind of problems with enclosure. Quick search showed a lot of people experiencing various problems with different X-craft enclosures. I got darn thing back and got cheap, NZ$15 ICZ enclosure. No polished aluminium, no fancy holster and polishing cloth.

But it works brilliantly.

And you don't always get what you paid for. Sometimes you get great bargain. Other times you might be ripped off.

My point is simply every Mac I ever owned was sold at about 50% of what I paid so the next one was subsidized. The real cost of any depreciating asset has to account for the residual value.

Weather clearing up in M$ HQ?
Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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post #306 of 331
4/1/09 at 7:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Oh, by the way I should point out for day-to-day stuff and especially for work I can't go by without a MacBook. (MacBook Pro would be nice, but that's another topic... ) ... On my trusty white MacBook Core Duo 3 year warranty (Applecare) runs out in a month's time...!

Luckily no such problem for me 99.99% of our clients are on Windows servers and desktops, so having Mac at work or as my main system at home would actually create plenty of problems for me.

But I'm still interested to have Mac as my 2nd system; notebook, likely. My personal notebook is not used for gaming or work anyway, and for Internet, email, photo editing and reading I should be able to use pretty much anything out there (short of reading Microsoft Reader ebooks which, I think, don't have dedicated reader for any platform but Windows )
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post #307 of 331
4/1/09 at 7:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

My point is simply every Mac I ever owned was sold at about 50% of what I paid so the next one was subsidized. The real cost of any depreciating asset has to account for the residual value.

Weather clearing up in M$ HQ?

Ah. Can we skip on childish stuff like M$, Microcrap and likes, please?

That aside... how often do you sell your Macs in order to keep 50% value?
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post #308 of 331
4/1/09 at 8:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

Ah. Can we skip on childish stuff like M$, Microcrap and likes, please?

That aside... how often do you sell your Macs in order to keep 50% value?


I have never failed to get 50% return on the sale of any mac and I have owned every one since Mac Plus. I upgrade every 2 to three years. Check out e-bay and look how well Apple equipment holds its value. Personally I have never had to use anything than e-mail, I just contact a few people and always get multiple offers (I take first and never get into an auction). In fact past buyers usually call once a year to see if i am about to upgrade.

M$ is crap why skip it? No eye rolling avoidance required. I use it, XP Pro, Vista and a tester for 7. Total unadulterated crap. I doubt M$ will be in business in a decade.
Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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post #309 of 331
4/1/09 at 9:04pm
this fued probably increases sales for both sides.. its probably planned!
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post #310 of 331
4/2/09 at 2:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

I have never failed to get 50% return on the sale of any mac and I have owned every one since Mac Plus. I upgrade every 2 to three years. Check out e-bay and look how well Apple equipment holds its value. Personally I have never had to use anything than e-mail, I just contact a few people and always get multiple offers (I take first and never get into an auction). In fact past buyers usually call once a year to see if i am about to upgrade.

Good on you. True I see asking price is high on local trade site, but I don't see too many people biding. Maybe Apple's image is not that strong in NZ in general.

Considering that Apple's new offering is not much better than previous generation, it actually makes sense; major reason for de-valuing used hardware is constant price drop and performance rise. That apparently doesn't happen much in Apple world, which is kind of good for Mac owners, but not for first time buyers.

But that coin has other side - what would be someone's motive to sell, say, his 2 years old iMac 24" for 50% of it's price and get new one..? Is it worthy upgrade..?

My AMD Athlon 64 X2 2.2GHz was around NZ$350 two and a half years ago; today you can get it for NZ$90. I might be able to get 50% of today's price, but anything above would be daydreaming. However, my coin's second side tells me that for NZ$350 today I can get Intel Core 2 Quad 2.33GHz or Core 2 Duo 3GHz... they are both 2 - 3X faster than my old AMD in most games and applications.

Me? I prefer it that way.

Quote:
M$ is crap why skip it? No eye rolling avoidance required. I use it, XP Pro, Vista and a tester for 7. Total unadulterated crap. I doubt M$ will be in business in a decade.

Because it is immature. It is also nonsense.

My 21 year old colleague recently came up with wisecrack question for his Mac friend: "Any new rotten Apples from $teve Job$ gar(b)age?". He thought it was so smart he had to share it with rest of us... so I told him basically the same thing - grow up, mate.
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post #311 of 331
4/2/09 at 3:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

Apple caters to the premium end of the market, not the $400 Dell segment. You assume the entire market reflects YOU. It doesn't.

Does the entire market reflect any Mac user since we are all in the minority? Finally "premium" isn't an excuse to simply gouge or ignore market realities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTL215 View Post

It's pretty well know that half of all mac sales are first-time buyers.

Yes and just recently people were buying large McMansions featuring granite countertops for putting their name to a no down, no doc, negative am loan. Times change and the choice is the change or go extinct. Apple has successfully commoditized the iPod and no one is claiming they are buying crap for having a Nano available in addition to the Touch. No one would be idiotic enough to claim Apple could sell the shuffle for $300 just because they are Apple or "premium."

Quote:
Originally Posted by ulfoaf View Post

You are partially right. College kids are not buying MacBook Pros for $2500. They are buying Macbooks for $1000-$1400 in droves. The Macs are more popular with this age group probably than any others. My daughter came to me after using a crappy Toshiba laptop (that cost $1600 and failed in less than 2 years) and asked to get a Mac. We did. She is happy.

I'm glad she was able (with your help) to purchase twice. That isn't an option for everyone. Finally plenty of people would simply implicate Toshiba and not necessarily Windows. Some of those parents are going to take the kid down to Best Buy and see rows of Dell, Asus and other brand 15 inch laptops with very impressive specs for $799-$899. I'm simply advocating Apple attempt to hit price points they have in the past with quality hardware. Apple offered a $999 iMac, a $1500 tower, etc as examples. It isn't a choice between spend $2500 or produce pure crap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

I don't thing that it makes any sense to compare Apple's prices with home built PCs.

Regardless of what you think, my entire school district is catered to by a smaller company that builds their own machines and maintains them. The fact that people can put it together themselves has to figure into the equation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

It was home built only because I wanted it that way. I could also select parts on-line, have shop puting them together, installing OS, drivers and updates and have computer delivered to me the next day.

I don't see difference between this or, say, Dell/HP/any on-line configurator..?

BINGO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Price. It's always going to be cheaper to built it yourself.

For towers perhaps, but Apple can offer something unique to justify the dollars spent on their hardware. The G4 tower was unique. The G5/Intel tower could use a refreshing and also Apple should offer a $1500 tower again. The style plus better fan placement and control would justify the extra money.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #312 of 331
4/2/09 at 3:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by O-Mac View Post

People should be saving their money anyway.

Why spend $400 for a piece of crap plastic machine with "WINDERS" that runs like WINDERS 95 on Mark McGuiroids when you can SAVE YOUR MONEY for when the economy gets a little better then get a new hotness MacBook or MacBook Pro?

With my assembled PC I and play latest games *NOW* and still have some savings in case things get worse.
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post #313 of 331
4/2/09 at 3:44am
OK wait for the ATI 4890X2 then run it with a 1080p 24"... Awww yeah... I'm not touching Vista ... Hopefully windows 7 is out by middle of the year and it has good smooth fast no hassle gaming in Directx10etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

Very happy with that Silverstone! Whisper quiet, and I really like those modular cables.

4870 - you got me there! I've quoted that card just to make my point (it is about NZ$500 here) but I haven't purchased it yet. I'm still using my nVidia 8800GT. Reason is, as you mentioned - I'm also waiting to see what is new part from ATI going to look like. That is why I still haven't got my 24" monitor yet as well.

Ah, Vista. My previous system was AMD 64 X2 4200+ on nForce4 Ultra motherboard. With that system I've moved from XP to Vista Business 32-bit after SP1 for Vista was released. My experience with Vista on that system was great - only thing I could not make working was almost 10 years old Microtek scanner. Last driver for that poor thing was for Windows 2000, though it was working OK on XP as well. I can't really blame MS - or even Microtek - for not supporting such old part any more. Everything else - including Creative X-Fi audio card, Logitech steering wheel etc. I was able to download stable driver for Vista. New system has Vista Ultimate 64 and again, didn't have problem with anything. Maybe it was just my good luck... or simple fact I did select parts from manufacturers with good reputation.

I didn't purchase Vista Ultimate as well (though I did quote regular OEM price in my example) - I'm "blessed" to be working for company that is Microsoft Gold Partner, and on one of MS presentations I've got copy of Ultimate for free. Otherwise I'd just decommission Vista 32 from my previous system and install it on new box until W7 comes out; buying it at this moment really would not make much sense in my case, except if MS would not promise some kind of almost free upgrade to W7.
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post #314 of 331
4/2/09 at 4:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

OK wait for the ATI 4890X2 then run it with a 1080p 24"... Awww yeah... I'm not touching Vista ... Hopefully windows 7 is out by middle of the year and it has good smooth fast no hassle gaming in Directx10etc

Hmm... I don't think W7 will come out before the end of this or beginning of 2010... \
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post #315 of 331
4/3/09 at 11:21am
I haven't observed a mass exodus of Mac users to Windows machines as a result of this ad. Nor have I observed people flocking to stores to scoop up cheap Windows computers because "by golly, they really ARE cheaper!"

Probably still too early to tell if there was any effect, but I'm still trying to determine exactly what Microsoft is hoping to accomplish with this ad campaign.

Is it just me?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #316 of 331
4/3/09 at 11:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I haven't observed a mass exodus of Mac users to Windows machines as a result of this ad. Nor have I observed people flocking to stores to scoop up cheap Windows computers because "by golly, they really ARE cheaper!"

Probably still too early to tell if there was any effect, but I'm still trying to determine exactly what Microsoft is hoping to accomplish with this ad campaign.

Is it just me?

Trying to piss off the hardware partners that made the PCs she didn't choose maybe?
Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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post #317 of 331
4/3/09 at 11:48am
If PC are so cheap.

Why are so many users always stealing software?
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
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He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
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post #318 of 331
4/3/09 at 11:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

If PC are so cheap.

Why are so many users always stealing software?

Excellent observation.

I'm personally against software/media piracy.

If you take pirated software out of the equation, which solution ends up being cheaper? Macs or Windows PCs?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #319 of 331
4/3/09 at 9:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

If PC are so cheap.

Why are so many users always stealing software?

Because PCs are cheap therefore it draws people that are cheap therefore they try to "save" even more by stealing software, games, movies, music.

If you did a survey on ethics I think Mac users come out ahead.
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post #320 of 331
4/3/09 at 9:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

...Probably still too early to tell if there was any effect, but I'm still trying to determine exactly what Microsoft is hoping to accomplish with this ad campaign.

Is it just me?

Par for the course for any Microsoft ad campaign. Who knows what the hell their advertising achieves, in general. It's all a "throw things on a wall and see what sticks" kind of marketing approach that they have demonstrated these past several years.
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