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Microsoft's anti-Mac pricing campaign takes to the web - Page 7

post #241 of 269
Quote:
Yes it has. Remember that in the first few years of Job's return, Mac sales were in the doldrums. It's quite likely that the amount of active Mac users didn't really change that much... while the amount of PC users took off. It's only in the last four years that the Mac has started to reclaim some of it's lost market share."

Whatever the last 4 years is called, it wasn't real growth, at best just catching up to losses to hold the 25m number consistent over the long term.

Quote:
Either Apple has some new cutomers or the "existing base" appear to be buying three times as many Macs as before."

As long as the 25 million number is holding, increased Mac sales can only mean new customers are replacing defections and existing users and buying more frequently.
post #242 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by nowayout11 View Post

Whatever the last 4 years is called, it wasn't real growth, at best just catching up to losses to hold the 25m number consistent over the long term.

Don't get too hung up on the 25m number. These numbers (even whan announced by Apple) are a little vague. For example... how long have we been hearing that there are a billion PCs out there. Does that figure ever change?

Yes the last 4 years was REAL growth. Growth in sales which (however way you calculate it) must equate to a change in the user base.

Last 4 years of Mac sales = 28.1 million
Prior 4 years of Mac sales = 12.9 million
post #243 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by piot View Post

Don't get too hung up on the 25m number. These numbers (even whan announced by Apple) are a little vague. For example... how long have we been hearing that there are a billion PCs out there. Does that figure ever change?

Yes the last 4 years was REAL growth. Growth in sales which (however way you calculate it) must equate to a change in the user base.

Last 4 years of Mac sales = 28.1 million
Prior 4 years of Mac sales = 12.9 million

Have you noticed all these nice polite new members who are continuously hammering the M$ spin over and over. Normal trolls get nasty, these polite guys are in suits in Redmond lol. My bet is many of them after a few weeks of this will be dying to try a Mac to see why we love them so much lol
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post #244 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by piot View Post

Don't get too hung up on the 25m number. These numbers (even whan announced by Apple) are a little vague. For example... how long have we been hearing that there are a billion PCs out there. Does that figure ever change?

Yes the last 4 years was REAL growth. Growth in sales which (however way you calculate it) must equate to a change in the user base.

Last 4 years of Mac sales = 28.1 million
Prior 4 years of Mac sales = 12.9 million

server glitch I got a duplicate post!
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post #245 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by piot View Post

Don't get too hung up on the 25m number. These numbers (even whan announced by Apple) are a little vague. For example... how long have we been hearing that there are a billion PCs out there. Does that figure ever change?

Yes the last 4 years was REAL growth. Growth in sales which (however way you calculate it) must equate to a change in the user base.

Last 4 years of Mac sales = 28.1 million
Prior 4 years of Mac sales = 12.9 million

There's no credible way to count all the PCs in the world. 25 million is a lot more specific and manageable than a worldwide guesstimate. Unless Apple has something more recent and accurate, that remains the best estimate anybody, including Apple, has.
post #246 of 269
Server is behaving badly so I hope my post goes through without duplication.

Some personal but relevant data:

Wife and I have a two person, at home, graphic arts business. Mac users since 1988. Keep every mac AT LEAST 4 years. NEVER, EVER had one die. Replaced HDs, RAM, fans, etc, but each computer has been sold or given away after it's served its time.

Ever since ebay, I get used mac desktop towers and Apple Cinema displays. I can't believe how often people upgrade and get rid of perfectly good computers! Great stuff and not too expensive. I still get over 4 years out of each computer and the macs make us money in our business and we never have to call the geeks to fix them. That's real world stuff, not theory.

The average computer user is MUCH better served by a Mac than a windows computer. Every family member or friend I have ever converted has thanked me over and over. Against my advice, one friend converted from mac to windows and the tears continue. Now I have my 17-year old nephew on a mac and he is converting his dad as well. Funny...his dad used to think that macs were all hype but now he sees the light. MS should be worried about their long-term prospects.

The average user CANNOT keep windows computer running trouble-free. EVERYTHING gets messed up due to spyware and malevolent parasites and there is no way to keep them out without dedicating lots of time to the problem. By comparison, I run our macs trouble-free with no virus protection whatsoever--just basic DOs and DONT's regarding security and passwords.

If you are techie and you want this or that, fine. Run what you like but save your non-techie friends from the horror that is windows. The windows experience is dehumanizing for the average computer user.
post #247 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by tawilson View Post

There is at the very least one very good reason why Apple has not got a netbook out right now. That reason is there is almost no profit to be made from that market.

Apple can make more profit selling a single MacBook than they'll make selling around 20 netbooks (and that's being generous and assuming they make the netbooks as ugly as the current netbook offerings).

Well then by saying that you're admitting that the MacBook is overpriced if there is that much gross profit.
post #248 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Well then by saying that you're admitting that the MacBook is overpriced if there is that much gross profit.

No, it isn't. It's saying that they don't' wish to compete in a market that makes hardly any money despite the unit sales which means that Apple would have to lower quality or have to install a bunch of crapware from 3rd-parties in order to turn a profit. Both of these options would weaken the public image of the Apple and Mac branding which would hurt Apple tremendously in the long run.

Your "that much gross profit" is comparing one machine which has a process costing $300 (the cost of most netbooks) with one that has $20 processor. And that is just one component. It's disingenuous, even for you, to think that any Mac is over priced comapred to a netbook without even mentioning the completely different HW being used or the free to old OS being used.
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post #249 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Have you noticed all these nice polite new members who are continuously hammering the M$ spin over and over.

Trolls come in all shapes and sizes.

I actually don't think that this particular (numbers) conversation is troll driven. There are plenty of Apple fans who are willing to ignore facts and stats to try and confirm their own agenda.

Basically it goes like this:

I don't like a particular Apple product.
Apple product has missing features.
Apple product is too expensive.
Apple doesn't make the product I want.


Add to that:

.... and all MY FRIENDS agree

ergo:

This Apple product will never sell
This is another "cube"
Apple have taken their eye off the ball
Apple are only interested in iPods
Apple have shot themselves in the foot
They are just sooooo greedy
Bill Gates gives his money to charity
Steve Jobs ate my hampster


and

....all MY FRIENDS agree


Anyone who thinks that Apple's Mac business is just treading water should take another look at the title of this thread.
post #250 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by solsun View Post

You know, I agree with you to a point.. I know there are plenty of computer users who will never do anything more than email, surf the web, import a few photos and open the occasional word doc.. For them, if they are already accustomed to PC's and are on a tight budget, they may be better off buying a $500 to $700 PC.. As Apple has clearly re-iterated time and time again, they are not interested in creating products for that demographic.

The Mac's real value is in the software, for people who want to do more than the above.. The integration between the Mac hardware and OSX, and media creation with the iLife/iWork apps and Apple's mobile devices is where the real value lies for most users.. And of course, to do a lot of the media creation that you can do on a Mac, you will need better specs than you will find on most budget PC's. Hence, even with a 13" screen, the entry level MacBook is a very capable machine and reasonably priced for what you get.

I would think if you just want to do basic stuff with a machine, you'd do best getting a pc with linux, like a Dell inspiron Ubuntu or a System76, or a locally bought desktop. But of course microsoft would never want you to think about that.

After all, with linux, you get a wide variety of free software, a free OS, great online support, a wonderful community, low system requirements, and a highly secure, intuitive, cohesive system.
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post #251 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by nowayout11 View Post

There's no credible way to count all the PCs in the world. 25 million is a lot more specific and manageable than a worldwide guesstimate. Unless Apple has something more recent and accurate, that remains the best estimate anybody, including Apple, has.

Really? Go download the past 10 years of quarterly 10-Q reports for Apple. Add up the sales.
post #252 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

No, it isn't. It's saying that they don't' wish to compete in a market that makes hardly any money despite the unit sales which means that Apple would have to lower quality or have to install a bunch of crapware from 3rd-parties in order to turn a profit. Both of these options would weaken the public image of the Apple and Mac branding which would hurt Apple tremendously in the long run.

Your "that much gross profit" is comparing one machine which has a process costing $300 (the cost of most netbooks) with one that has $20 processor. And that is just one component. It's disingenuous, even for you, to think that any Mac is over priced comapred to a netbook without even mentioning the completely different HW being used or the free to old OS being used.

Your whole reasoning is wack- as if Apple would ever allow "a bunch of crapware" on their netbook or tablet.
And BTW - his reasoning was insinuating that an Apple netbook wasn't needed because MacBooks make way to much profit-meaning it's overpriced and Apple can ride those profits alone. Again you distort the reason why I respond. I'm not making that claim- he was.
Many here want a small Apple laptop/netbook/tablet- all except you. Therefore we are all wrong according to your views. And who's disingenuous? HA!
post #253 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryaxnb View Post

I would think if you just want to do basic stuff with a machine, you'd do best getting a pc with linux, like a Dell inspiron Ubuntu or a System76, or a locally bought desktop. But of course microsoft would never want you to think about that.

After all, with linux, you get a wide variety of free software, a free OS, great online support, a wonderful community, low system requirements, and a highly secure, intuitive, cohesive system.

The percentage of people who would feel comfortable buying a computer with Linux for home use is pretty small. Outside of geeks how many are we really talking about? Eventually netbooks will become appliance-like enough that people don't care so much what's on there, but we're not quite there yet. And even if we are, the perception is not there.

A value proposition that wasn't mentioned to Lauren: Can she go back to Best Buy or wherever she was and have an HP employee work on her laptop? Is there some brand other than Apple that has that kind of presence? For those of you outside the US I know Apple Stores are still few and far between, but at least it seems like they're working on that.
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post #254 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

Really? Go download the past 10 years of quarterly 10-Q reports for Apple. Add up the sales.

Meaning what? If you have access to data more credible than Apple's own claimed 25 million active userbase, please share.
post #255 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by walshbj View Post

People pay full retail for a copy of Windows to run on their Mac. But Microsoft is telling them not to buy a machine that runs Windows.

There are a lot of analogies here - and the behavior would look strange. Like Exxon telling me to buy a Mazda or Time Warner telling me to buy a Samsung television.

Microsoft makes Office for Mac and then tells people not to buy a Mac? The whole message is confused.

That said, MS has resorted to mud slinging. Will it work with a certain audience? Sure. Did Apple do it first? I guess. But it doesn't look so good when you have the giant market share. It looks kind of weird, desperate, paranoid and misguided.

They are gearing up for Windows 7, they are having to play nice for their computer makers.
post #256 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2 cents View Post

If you are techie and you want this or that, fine. Run what you like but save your non-techie friends from the horror that is windows. The windows experience is dehumanizing for the average computer user.

I think this is a great point. Some people like to fool around, install stuff, reinstall stuff, fix stuff ... but then non-technical users go to these "experts" for buying advice ... and end up with much more trouble than they needed.
post #257 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by piot View Post

Look Hi, you may be a very nice guy, and you are obviously extremely talented but you really are beginning to sound like a bit of a dick.

Sorry bout that.

I was sleeping, woke up from a nightmare, got online with the iPhone (terrible to post with), read that comment about the poster personally attacking someone and took it to heart - my bad for spewing the same way. I was no better.

I actually enjoy Apple products, believe their software to be developed in a way that makes sense, e.g., in iWork, you want to move a photo or resize, you do it, in Word you try that and the text disappears off the screen. Of course, this is a elementary example, but you get my point.

I think the PRO part of me is a bit peeved as we have been shut out for so long as Apple dropped .MAC, dropped computers from their name, and catered more to consumer iPhone user than developing Logic, Final Cut. However this is what the market dictates, still, it would be nice to see a reasonable priced, yet NON CRIPPLED hardware system. As others have said, would it kill them to make a mid range 4/8 core system with firewire, no screen, and YOUR CHOICE of graphics?

I think the next big thing BEFORE this summer is the NETBOOK. It won't be $99 but would like something smaller than an air, bigger than an iPhone, lighter than a macbook with option for firewire, target mode and nvidia GPU.

My apologies.
post #258 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernTommy View Post

Now, what does Microsoft? Launches an ad campaign that doesn't really affect Mac sales, but does promote the price erosion of PCs.

Exactly, MS's kinda tying their own noose a bit. By going after Apple, which is bad in the first place, and making this into a price war, they are effectively leading companies like Dell into non-existence. Dell is close to extinction and now MS is pushing cheap, close to profitless hardware as the selling point. I'm sure Michael Dell is thrilled. and they just launched Adamo too. Ouch.

It's funny how MS's sights are now set on Macs, it was Linux last year. I think companies like Dell and HP need to take back their hardware and polish Linux into a crown jewel it so desperately wants to be. I like Linux but it tries to mimic Windows too much. If Dell Did a touch screen Linux...hmmmm, I think I'm going to call up Michael Dell....
post #259 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by nowayout11 View Post

Meaning what? If you have access to data more credible than Apple's own claimed 25 million active userbase, please share.

Add up the total sales over the past 10 years. It's a non-linear set of equations. You work out the non-linear differential equations for the closest approximation on your own. It's quite clear you've got a fixation on it.
post #260 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by mosx View Post

A Mac certainly doesn't contain all I need out of the box either. I still need video conversion tools, I still need chat apps other than iChat because not everyone uses AIM, you still need things like Perian and Flip4Mac. If you're a movie buff, you need Windows because DVD Player is about as good as WinDVD 2.3 from 10 years ago.

I also want to point out that Windows Preview (for viewing pictures view Explorer (not IE)) is FAR better than the Preview app in OS X. FAR better. But Vista comes with Windows Photo Gallery which is every bit as good as iPhoto for minor editing and photo organizing and viewing.

Windows Media Player, with ffdshow, will play ANY file type and do nearly anything you want with audio. With OS X you basically have no choice but to use iTunes. On a PC, however, you have a wide variety of choices. On my PC I use Winamp. Its small, light, has Milkdrop (untouchable by any iTunes visualizer) and the sound processing engine is better than that in iTunes. On my Mac I have iTunes, Quicktime, Perian, and VLC since theres no all-in-one solution.

While I agree some of the software that comes with a Macintosh could do with some improvement it is not quite as bad as you make it to be.

The only reason you need things like Perian and Flip4Mac is the AVI video format is a total joke and the average windows user just throws in whatever codec he happens to have. I have found the players in both the Mac and WIndows OSes to far inferior to VLC and only use them when the DVD can't be for some reason read by VLC.

I have found Windows Preview to be a joke even compared to MacOS Preview and GraphicConverter kicks both to the pavement and then down the street. Sure it is a US $35 shareware program but it can handle nearly EVERY image format out there and is so powerful in other areas that it is often called "the poor man's photoshop"

As for converting audio files there is PlayerPRO 5.9 and AudioFinder 4.8.4 which can also play anything reasonable out there.
post #261 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by piot View Post

Trolls come in all shapes and sizes.

I actually don't think that this particular (numbers) conversation is troll driven. There are plenty of Apple fans who are willing to ignore facts and stats to try and confirm their own agenda.

Basically it goes like this:

I don't like a particular Apple product.
Apple product has missing features.
Apple product is too expensive.
Apple doesn't make the product I want.


Add to that:

.... and all MY FRIENDS agree

ergo:

This Apple product will never sell
This is another "cube"
Apple have taken their eye off the ball
Apple are only interested in iPods
Apple have shot themselves in the foot
They are just sooooo greedy
Bill Gates gives his money to charity
Steve Jobs ate my hampster


and

....all MY FRIENDS agree


Anyone who thinks that Apple's Mac business is just treading water should take another look at the title of this thread.


Agreed.

Apple is not after aimless marketshare - it's after the premium end of the market, an area in which it's doing extremely well. Apple makes a premium product and prices it accordingly. Apple is targeting people with a higher level of disposable income. This segment certainly exists, but naturally, the pyramid is narrower at the top.

Those who can afford to spend several thousand on tech are not going to find ways to save and cut corners. They're looking for lasting value and a best-of-breed product. And hence, Apple's margins. The last thing Apple needs to do is promote low price-points and cheapen their image. If the price of an MBP suddenly dropped $600 I'd be wondering what's wrong with the product. Cheapen your product like MS is doing and has been doing, and . . . it's no longer coveted. Less desirable. No mystique. No longer special. An average laptop in a tech store with a sticker on it, running Windows. Nothing can be more bottom-of-the barrel. What is easily attainable is less appealing. Add to that the fact that Windows in and of itself is not very appealing to begin with, and what you've got is an image that not many would want to associate with.

All of this newfound angst over Apple pricing is coming (mostly) from those who have, over the past year, been dropped to a lower income bracket thanks to economic troubles, and no can no longer afford xyz Apple product. Their reasoning (all of a sudden) is that since everyone else is lowering their prices, Apple should as well. As if it's unfair that Apple "thinks" (ugh, I hate anthropomorphising companies) it's "too good" to lower prices. Time will tell, but the premium end of the market is definitely there. I expect Apple's margins to hold, and to help them ride through this downturn even if revenue won't be as stellar as in the past.

Apple needs (and I expect it to) innovate its way out of this recession, not price their way out of it.
post #262 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by piot

.... and all MY FRIENDS agree

This line cracks me up.
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post #263 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

Agreed.


All of this newfound angst over Apple pricing is coming (mostly) from those who have, over the past year, been dropped to a lower income bracket thanks to economic troubles, and no can no longer afford xyz Apple product.

With respect to the internet community ... I think it is coming from a group of paid M$ staff who have been told to infiltrate every Apple blog they can and spin the new M$ attack program into action. These trolls are far too consistent and avoid any direct confrontation unlike the trolls we are familiar with.

Also I don't believe too many Mac users would go back to Windows or switch to it due to an economic down turn in their lives, they'd just keep using the Mac they already have (they keep on going). The last thing a Mac person who is already depressed would want is Windows!
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post #264 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

This line cracks me up.

LOL, convincing isn't it?
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post #265 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

Add up the total sales over the past 10 years. It's a non-linear set of equations. You work out the non-linear differential equations for the closest approximation on your own. It's quite clear you've got a fixation on it.

Apple already figured it out. It's others discounting their numbers, not me.
post #266 of 269
Microsoft should not have a problem convincing the brain dead that they know what's best.
post #267 of 269
I do like my MBP and OSX. But, after reading most of the posts, wanted to point a few facts for a balanced !

Microsoft is a software company. Pity that they are advertising cheap hardware as their main strength!

Please see the ad where Mac boasts of his snap in power adaptor and the fact that PC guy is in a wheelchair with broken leg and arm.

Vista is so costly but OSX is not!

Consider the every year release of OSX and their cumulative cost.

Need to buy Anti-virus for Windows!

Apple strongly recommends to use anti-virus for its OS as well! OSX is not more secure than Vista is. It is much easier to break OSX!! As read recently in an interview (http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...hack,2254.html), OSX is safer because no one bothers to write malware/virus for OSX.

Basic Features Missing!

You can drag a file to move it in OSX but you cannot cut and paste files! Forwarding the contact details through SMS/Bluetooth is a function available in even basic phones now-a-days but it is not available in iPhone. (Before someone points that it can be done in iPhone 3.0, the point is features available in the competing products for years are not available in Apple products!) All decent phones give lotus notes syncing for contacts/emails but the "premium" iPhone does not give you that facility!

Stability!

Please take stock on the patches released by Apple for most of its products since last 18 months! And the problems Apple faced over the MobileMe in the initial days!

I can go on but need to stop in the interest of time. Before someone reacts to this post negatively, please read the first line again!
post #268 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by manas_it View Post

Please see the ad where Mac boasts of his snap in power adaptor and the fact that PC guy is in a wheelchair with broken leg and arm.

I still don't understand the point you are making. Apple makes both hardware and software and so is able to make comparisons. Microsoft cannot make the same claims.

Quote:
Consider the every year release of OSX and their cumulative cost.

It is true that OSX is updated more often than Windows, but it is not every year. It is nearer once every two years. Also it is strange to be penalised for providing customers with newer software. It is not essential for users to buy every new release. I usually skip every other release.

Quote:
Apple strongly recommends to use anti-virus for its OS as well! OSX is not more secure than Vista is. It is much easier to break OSX!!

It's easy to find a pwn2own where OSX won over Windows too. Although you are absolutely right about antivirus software. OSX doesn't get hit so much because it draws less interest from hackers.

Quote:
You can drag a file to move it in OSX but you cannot cut and paste files!

You can copy and paste, but there is no cut. I agree this is annoying and should be in OS X.

Quote:
Forwarding the contact details through SMS/Bluetooth is a function available in even basic phones now-a-days but it is not available in iPhone.

I'm not going to point out about iPhone 3.0, I am going to point out the argument is meainingless. We are talking about Apple Macs here, not the iPhone. Where's the comparison with Windows Mobile? It has nothing to do with this conversation.

Quote:
Please take stock on the patches released by Apple for most of its products since last 18 months! And the problems Apple faced over the MobileMe in the initial days!

Again, you need something to compare on the Windows side. Stock patches? Who cares when they are delivered to your machine and you update without ever knowing anything was ever wrong.
post #269 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by manas_it View Post

I can go on but need to stop in the interest of time.

No... No... Please.... Don't stop! We want more.
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