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Simple questions; Complex answers

post #1 of 96
Thread Starter 
Were people really expecting the Obama Administration to totally revamp the economy and fix all the country's problems within seconds of taking power?

I saw some slogan that said "You can't blame Bush anymore." What's a response to that?

Is the Obama Administration just full of hot air as some bumper stickers want you to think?

Are there Republicans out there who hate the Democrats and/or Obama and their ideals so much that they would rather watch the country go deeper into oblivion than do something to fix all these problems? The same goes for Democrats because contrary to popular belief, there are rich Democrats too.

Are there people who really believe that Obama caused this mess? The way some people talk on the street and on tv, you'd think the new administration messed this country up.

What is the root cause of people's dislike/disdain on BOTH sides. Democrats on Republicans and Republicans on Democrats and Independents on everything.

And here's the hard part.
Try answering any of these questions without sarcasm or being condescending.
post #2 of 96
I don't know that democrat/republican are even the right labels for these people.

As for those of us that oppose BHO's ideas, it's not a matter of hate or of toeing the party line. It is because we truly believe that increasing the national debt and deficit spending is NOT the way to fix anything. We were also unhappy with the previous administration for doing the same thing (but on a smaller scale... it's hard to believe.)

Quote:
Are there Republicans out there who hate the Democrats and/or Obama and their ideals so much that they would rather watch the country go deeper into oblivion than do something to fix all these problems?

As I said, many Americans believe that BHO's policies are exactly the ones that are going to drive the country "deeper into oblivion" ... because if you look long-term, there is going to be a huge debt that simply CANNOT be repaid... the only way out 10 years from now, if all his policies got implemented... would be to tell the rest of the world to "bite me!... we're defaulting on our international obligations!" Yes, that's a worst case scenario, but it's NOT so far fetched.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #3 of 96
Can some please provide me a link to these crystal balls that everyone seems to be enjoying. I'd like one too.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #4 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

I don't know that democrat/republican are even the right labels for these people.

As for those of us that oppose BHO's ideas, it's not a matter of hate or of toeing the party line. It is because we truly believe that increasing the national debt and deficit spending is NOT the way to fix anything. We were also unhappy with the previous administration for doing the same thing (but on a smaller scale... it's hard to believe.)



As I said, many Americans believe that BHO's policies are exactly the ones that are going to drive the country "deeper into oblivion" ... because if you look long-term, there is going to be a huge debt that simply CANNOT be repaid... the only way out 10 years from now, if all his policies got implemented... would be to tell the rest of the world to "bite me!... we're defaulting on our international obligations!" Yes, that's a worst case scenario, but it's NOT so far fetched.

Oh geez!

http://fav.or.it/post/1182387/nbcwsj...ix-the-economy


And just for good measure!

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/03/...oll/index.html

Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #5 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

Can some please provide me a link to these crystal balls that everyone seems to be enjoying. I'd like one too.

Here's an honest crystal ball.


http://www.cbo.gov/
post #6 of 96
Personally, it's difficult for me to see the distinction between either major political party anymore. I think they're just trying to keep up the appearance of being on different sides of the aisle while they accelerate their own agenda, which is centered around the acquisition and retention of power.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #7 of 96
I have no idea what grassroots Republicans are doing to rebuild their party. But I can tell you that grassroots Democrats are absolutely committed to rebuilding the Democratic party into a real progressive party. For instance you're going to see a TON of money being raised to run primary challenges against all of the Blue Dog Democrats. Evan Bayh is going to have a tough time keeping his Conservadems in any kind of influence.

Personally, I wish we could run a challenger against Diane Feinstein sooner rather than later. But in four years time she'll be wondering what the hell happened.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #8 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Personally, it's difficult for me to see the distinction between either major political party anymore. I think they're just trying to keep up the appearance of being on different sides of the aisle while they accelerate their own agenda, which is centered around the acquisition and retention of power.

Take another look at the last 8 years ( and where it left us ) and tell me that again.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #9 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by O-Mac View Post

The way some people talk on the street and on tv, you'd think the new administration messed this country up

In large part, the office of president just responds to events in the best way possible, given available options.

Bush had to deal with 9/11 8+ months after taking office. That event shaped his terms in office. Decisions needed to be made then follow through had to be managed. Some things that were done I agreed with, some I didn't, and hindsight is always 20/20. If one wants to point fingers, 9/11 was a failure of the previous administration and it's failure was in ignoring the precursor to that event - the previous attempt at bringing down the towers.

Obama now has to deal with a financial crash. This event is shaping his first term. Same deal as Bush - Obama needs to make decisions and then follow through. I don't agree with some of the decisions, others I do, and after the dust settles folks will be able to do their "I told you so!" song and dance, using the advantage hindsight provides. If one wants to point fingers, the crash is a failure of the previous administration and it's failure was in ignoring the precursor to that event - the lack of financial oversight of the banks and lending authorities.

Some presidents have the great fortune to serve their term during good times, some have the misfortune of serving during crisis, and the average guy on the street judges the performance of whomever is president based mostly on his personal impression and experiences of the events that occur. You can't win when the deck is stacked against you, and any/all crisis stacks the deck against you.

I personally don't think any other politician could do a better job than any of the men that have served as President ... just a different job.
post #10 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Take another look at the last 8 years ( and where it left us ) and tell me that again.

*looks*

Bush: declared unconstitutional war (without official declaration from Congress)
Obama: sending in more troops (after promising to bring them home)

No difference there.

Bush: unprecendented expansion of government power and intrusion into the private sector
Obama: accelerated unprecedented expansion of government power and intrusion into the private sector

No difference there.

Bush: blatant disregard for enforcing existing immigration law, no interest in securing our national borders
Obama: ditto

No difference there.

Bush: increased national debt
Obama: REALLY increased national debt

No difference there.

Bush: government spending like drunken sailor
Obama: government spending like drunken sailor who just won the lottery

No difference there.

Education? Same. Abortion? Same. Gun control? Same. Same, same, same. And so on, and so forth.

Okay, you told me to tell you again:

Personally, it's difficult for me to see the distinction between either major political party anymore. I think they're just trying to keep up the appearance of being on different sides of the aisle while they accelerate their own agenda, which is centered around the acquisition and retention of power.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #11 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by O-Mac View Post

Were people really expecting the Obama Administration to totally revamp the economy and fix all the country's problems within seconds of taking power?

No one expects Obama to fix the economy instantly, but when someone is taking the wrong direction instantly no amount of time passing will make it right.

It is akin to arguing that you can't criticize eating a gallon of Rocky Road ice cream a day while buying a new XBOX360 to train for your upcoming marathon can't be criticized because it hasn't been given enough time yet and can't work instantly.

It isn't that it won't work instantly, it is that it won't work EVER. You don't train for a marathon that way.

Our economy was suffering from lack of savings, excesses of debt (especially ridiculously easy credit terms) and over-consumption. Obama proposes to fix this by doubling the national debt and making the U.S. government the consumer of last resort since the general population can no longer consume to the same degree and he wants the government to make up the difference.

That will never work. The timeframe has nothing to do with it. We can disagree about whether it will work and you can contend that it will stimulate and work but the point to be understood is that a fundamentally wrong answer does not need an amount of time to pass to prove it wrong. It is wrong from the get go. It is also wrong even if the other party did it too.

Quote:
I saw some slogan that said "You can't blame Bush anymore." What's a response to that?

Is the Obama Administration just full of hot air as some bumper stickers want you to think?

People have engaged in a lot of reflexive thinking and they still are engaging in it. Our government constantly running in the red, our trade deficits, our lack of savings are not the result of just George W. Bush. Likewise they will not be cured by him being out of office. Something and someone either addresses the problem or they don't.

Quote:
Are there Republicans out there who hate the Democrats and/or Obama and their ideals so much that they would rather watch the country go deeper into oblivion than do something to fix all these problems? The same goes for Democrats because contrary to popular belief, there are rich Democrats too.

Two points, one sometimes you do have to hit rock bottom to stop the half-solutions so yes I do believe there are people out there hoping for the worst. Second, I'm not being sarcastic but when you focus on personal motivations like "hate" then you automatically get to eliminate people from the discussion and thus aren't really interested in including them in discussions.

I look outside and note the weather. It is a fact. I don't have to hate the weather, the weatherman, or hate myself if the weather is not what I want it to be.

America has a problem in that it does not produce as much as it consumes. People distract from this fact by noting that consumption and production might not be their definition of equitable. However regardless of that fact as a country we need to produce more and consume less.

I've had this discussion often when discussing minimum wage. People declare it should just be raised "because it is right to do so." The job either can generate that amount of value or it can't. If it can't it will be replaced by automation. No one will hire people at a loss. They don't hate the people but you can't lose money to hire someone.

Quote:
Are there people who really believe that Obama caused this mess? The way some people talk on the street and on tv, you'd think the new administration messed this country up.

What is the root cause of people's dislike/disdain on BOTH sides. Democrats on Republicans and Republicans on Democrats and Independents on everything.

And here's the hard part.
Try answering any of these questions without sarcasm or being condescending.

Look if you take a look in the mirror one day and decide you are 50 lbs overweight, there is one way to address that and it is eat less and do more. We can explore the motivations of the people telling you that advice (they hate me, the poor, Obama, they are fat themselves.) We can look at the timeframe (It's only been a month and this took 8 years (or more) to happen.) However what we can't do is more of the same and call it a change. That is delusional.

Obama called Bush a spender and said we were suffering economIcally because of tax cuts for the rich and the war. His solution was supposed to fix our lack of investment and our spending problem. Instead his budget is making the problems much, much worse. CBO estimates having him doubling the national debt in 5 years and tripling it in 10.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #12 of 96
All excellent points and very well put, trumptman.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #13 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

No one expects Obama to fix the economy instantly, but when someone is taking the wrong direction instantly no amount of time passing will make it right.

It is akin to arguing that you can't criticize eating a gallon of Rocky Road ice cream a day while buying a new XBOX360 to train for your upcoming marathon can't be criticized because it hasn't been given enough time yet and can't work instantly.

It isn't that it won't work instantly, it is that it won't work EVER. You don't train for a marathon that way.

Our economy was suffering from lack of savings, excesses of debt (especially ridiculously easy credit terms) and over-consumption. Obama proposes to fix this by doubling the national debt and making the U.S. government the consumer of last resort since the general population can no longer consume to the same degree and he wants the government to make up the difference.

That will never work. The timeframe has nothing to do with it. We can disagree about whether it will work and you can contend that it will stimulate and work but the point to be understood is that a fundamentally wrong answer does not need an amount of time to pass to prove it wrong. It is wrong from the get go. It is also wrong even if the other party did it too.



People have engaged in a lot of reflexive thinking and they still are engaging in it. Our government constantly running in the red, our trade deficits, our lack of savings are not the result of just George W. Bush. Likewise they will not be cured by him being out of office. Something and someone either addresses the problem or they don't.



Two points, one sometimes you do have to hit rock bottom to stop the half-solutions so yes I do believe there are people out there hoping for the worst. Second, I'm not being sarcastic but when you focus on personal motivations like "hate" then you automatically get to eliminate people from the discussion and thus aren't really interested in including them in discussions.

I look outside and note the weather. It is a fact. I don't have to hate the weather, the weatherman, or hate myself if the weather is not what I want it to be.

America has a problem in that it does not produce as much as it consumes. People distract from this fact by noting that consumption and production might not be their definition of equitable. However regardless of that fact as a country we need to produce more and consume less.

I've had this discussion often when discussing minimum wage. People declare it should just be raised "because it is right to do so." The job either can generate that amount of value or it can't. If it can't it will be replaced by automation. No one will hire people at a loss. They don't hate the people but you can't lose money to hire someone.



Look if you take a look in the mirror one day and decide you are 50 lbs overweight, there is one way to address that and it is eat less and do more. We can explore the motivations of the people telling you that advice (they hate me, the poor, Obama, they are fat themselves.) We can look at the timeframe (It's only been a month and this took 8 years (or more) to happen.) However what we can't do is more of the same and call it a change. That is delusional.

Obama called Bush a spender and said we were suffering economIcally because of tax cuts for the rich and the war. His solution was supposed to fix our lack of investment and our spending problem. Instead his budget is making the problems much, much worse. CBO estimates having him doubling the national debt in 5 years and tripling it in 10.

Quote:
No one expects Obama to fix the economy instantly, but when someone is taking the wrong direction instantly no amount of time passing will make it right.

Then why didn't you speak up during the Bush administration?

Quote:
Instead his budget is making the problems much, much worse.

Be sure and label this as an opinion as you don't have any facts ahead of time to back up your supposition. In other words this is just the way it's going to turn out because trumptman says so.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #14 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Then why didn't you speak up during the Bush administration?

Be sure and label this as an opinion as you don't have any facts ahead of time to back up your supposition. In other words this is just the way it's going to turn out because trumptman says so.

I did speak up and winking smilies aside, raise a real point.

The things that created and popped our bubble are not opinion. I specifically said we could all disagree about future events but logic would dictate that doing 300% more of the same won't solve it.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #15 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

If one wants to point fingers, 9/11 was a failure of the previous administration and it's failure was in ignoring the precursor to that event - the previous attempt at bringing down the towers.

Oh, give me a frickin' break! Please. At least Clinton nabbed and prosecuted the motherfuckers who did it. Who did Bush prosecute? Nobody!

The single biggest terrorist attack in history happened on Bush's watch AFTER he was given ample warning by Clarke and by Rice with her ever-present infamous memo.
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #16 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

Oh, give me a frickin' break! Please. At least Clinton nabbed and prosecuted the motherfuckers who did it. Who did Bush prosecute? Nobody!

The single biggest terrorist attack in history happened on Bush's watch AFTER he was given ample warning by Clarke and by Rice with her ever-present infamous memo.

Are you aware that Osama Bin Laden was offered up to President Clinton on a silver platter by the Saudis...and more than once...but Clinton looked the other way?

Several of those behind the 9/11 attacks have been apprehended and prosecuted, btw.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #17 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I did speak up and winking smilies aside, raise a real point.

The things that created and popped our bubble are not opinion. I specifically said we could all disagree about future events but logic would dictate that doing 300% more of the same won't solve it.

Quote:
I did speak up and winking smilies aside, raise a real point.

When?

Quote:
The things that created and popped our bubble are not opinion. I specifically said we could all disagree about future events but logic would dictate that doing 300% more of the same won't solve it

My comment was aimed at you making a statement about the future. " Popped " is past tense.

Up to your old tricks I see.
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post #18 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Are you aware that Osama Bin Laden was offered up to President Clinton on a silver platter by the Saudis...and more than once...but Clinton looked the other way?

Several of those behind the 9/11 attacks have been apprehended and prosecuted, btw.

Are you aware that reports prior to 911 sugested the OSBL was training people to use airplanes as weapons? These reports had been given to Bush.

Were you aware that Bush had the Bin lauden family flown out of Washington after 911?

Were you aware that as the previous head of an oil company Bush had dealings with the Bin Laudens?

Were you aware that Bush's reaction to the report that the twin towers had been hit was to continue to keep reading a book to children?

Sorry. You really don't sound unbiased.

And by the way what did we do to counter the attack?

Did we catch OSBL? No. We attacked another country that had nothing to do with the situation and we sure caught the the head of that country and he was tried and executed.

But as a newcomer you probably don't understand that we here at PO have already argued these points to death. The Bush supporters didn't come out on top.

Geez!
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post #19 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

When?



My comment was aimed at you making a statement about the future. " Popped " is past tense.

Up to your old tricks I see.

Jimmac. Put your glasses on.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #20 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Jimmac. Put your glasses on.

Ad-hom.

Past tense is past tense trumptman.

This :

Quote:
Instead his budget is making the problems much, much worse

Is attempting to draw a conclusion about the future not the past. You put your glasses on.
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post #21 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Ad-hom.

Past tense is past tense trumptman.

This :



Is attempting to draw a conclusion about the future not the past. You put your glasses on.

Let me help you. First telling you to put your glasses on isn't an ad-hom. It is a fact that you aren't seeing the words on the screen. The other conclusions I could draw are much worse.

First thing I posted...

We can disagree about whether it will work and you can contend that it will stimulate and work but the point to be understood is that a fundamentally wrong answer does not need an amount of time to pass to prove it wrong.

I said we can argue about opinion, but the reality is that a wrong answer doesn't need time to be wrong. The counter-argument made by yourself and others is that people are holding Obama "responsible" for not "instantly" fixing the economy. The issue is that the solution is wrong. The timeframe bit is just a distraction.

I then added this....

The things that created and popped our bubble are not opinion. I specifically said we could all disagree about future events but logic would dictate that doing 300% more of the same won't solve it.

That little thing in the middle is called a period. It denotes the end of one complete thought and the capital letter notes start of another. Thus I noted the PAST was settled and fact. I said the future was opinion and we could argue about opinions.

Try to keep up, or find the glasses.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #22 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Let me help you. First telling you to put your glasses on isn't an ad-hom. It is a fact that you aren't seeing the words on the screen. The other conclusions I could draw are much worse.

First thing I posted...

We can disagree about whether it will work and you can contend that it will stimulate and work but the point to be understood is that a fundamentally wrong answer does not need an amount of time to pass to prove it wrong.

I said we can argue about opinion, but the reality is that a wrong answer doesn't need time to be wrong. The counter-argument made by yourself and others is that people are holding Obama "responsible" for not "instantly" fixing the economy. The issue is that the solution is wrong. The timeframe bit is just a distraction.

I then added this....

The things that created and popped our bubble are not opinion. I specifically said we could all disagree about future events but logic would dictate that doing 300% more of the same won't solve it.

That little thing in the middle is called a period. It denotes the end of one complete thought and the capital letter notes start of another. Thus I noted the PAST was settled and fact. I said the future was opinion and we could argue about opinions.

Try to keep up, or find the glasses.

Sorry but this:

Quote:
is that a fundamentally wrong answer does not need an amount of time to pass to prove it wrong

Makes it an opinion until you know the outcome. Sorry not even trumptman can change the nature of existence no matter how strong his opinion.
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post #23 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Sorry but this:



Makes it an opinion until you know the outcome. Sorry not even trumptman can change the nature of existence no matter how strong his opinion.

Congratulations. You've now successfully come to the conclusion I claimed all along about all statements regarding future events.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #24 of 96
edit . . .
post #25 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

Oh, give me a frickin' break! Please. At least Clinton nabbed and prosecuted the motherfuckers who did it. Who did Bush prosecute? Nobody!

The single biggest terrorist attack in history happened on Bush's watch AFTER he was given ample warning by Clarke and by Rice with her ever-present infamous memo.

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the al-Qaeda "mastermind" who financed and directed the 1993 bombing, the principal architect of the 9/11 attacks, the guy who sent Richard Reid on the airline to bomb it, directed the Millennium Plot, the murder of Daniel Pearl...the guy that was involved in many of the most significant terrorist plots over the last twenty years...

He was captured in 2003. I don't think Clinton was there when they nabbed him.

That's irrelevant, anyway. There's always ways for small bitter men and women to accuse former holders of office of being the "cause" of all the problems, and that accomplishes absolutely nothing. The president decides what response is necessary to whatever challenges present themselves. They make the decisions they make using whatever information is available, and the average citizen will never know what exactly that information is. Then the average citizen has the luxury of sitting in their easy chair in front of their TV and claim the superiority and clarity hindsight provides.

piffle. Anyone that says they could do a better job... that says they knew better than the guy in the hot seat responsible at the moment the shit hits the fan ... they're idiots.
post #26 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Congratulations. You've now successfully come to the conclusion I claimed all along about all statements regarding future events.

When I make a " Prediction " I label it as such. The way you do it is known as " The bum's rush ". Pushing a subject to a supposed factual conclusion when the conclusion hasn't been reached and there's a reasonable chance it might go another way ( much like the recent election ).
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post #27 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the al-Qaeda "mastermind" who financed and directed the 1993 bombing, the principal architect of the 9/11 attacks, the guy who sent Richard Reid on the airline to bomb it, directed the Millennium Plot, the murder of Daniel Pearl...the guy that was involved in many of the most significant terrorist plots over the last twenty years...

He was captured in 2003. I don't think Clinton was there when they nabbed him.

That's irrelevant, anyway. There's always ways for small bitter men and women to accuse former holders of office of being the "cause" of all the problems, and that accomplishes absolutely nothing. The president decides what response is necessary to whatever challenges present themselves. They make the decisions they make using whatever information is available, and the average citizen will never know what exactly that information is. Then the average citizen has the luxury of sitting in their easy chair in front of their TV and claim the superiority and clarity hindsight provides.

piffle. Anyone that says they could do a better job... that says they knew better than the guy in the hot seat responsible at the moment the shit hits the fan ... they're idiots.

Than Bush?

Give a monkey enough bannas and it could do a better job!

The average citizen may not hold the same office but a lot of them weren't born yesterday. They can see a loser. Bush was the worst president in my personal lifetime of almost 56 years! Myself and others have said so many times during his 2 terms in office.

Now what we have is known as The end result!

Sorry if you don't like it or would rather blame someone else. But you know anyone in this world who takes a job of responsibility is expected to be responsible for the outcome. Not try to dodge it! That goes double for anyone with a high profile job like President.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #28 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

The average citizen may not hold the same office but a lot of them weren't born yesterday. They can see a loser. Bush was the worst president in my personal lifetime of almost 56 years! Myself and others have said so many times during his 2 terms in office.

Yet he was elected to two terms...

It's easy to look back in hindsight and judge the decisions others make...and you're not the only one here who looks back over a half century of presidents, so when I hear you claim the ability to judge for our entire generation the contribution of those elected to protect and lead the USA, I immediately find myself wondering what experience you have to do that.

My kids used to complain how this or that teacher was the worst in the world, and I marked that up to juvenile ignorance.

Folks second guessing Obama are cut from the same cloth as those who second guess ANY president, and I've never been impressed by motley. I only value decisions by those qualified to make them, and if you haven't had the job, you can't base your opinion on experience.
post #29 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

Yet he was elected to two terms...

It's easy to look back in hindsight and judge the decisions others make...and you're not the only one here who looks back over a half century of presidents, so when I hear you claim the ability to judge for our entire generation the contribution of those elected to protect and lead the USA, I immediately find myself wondering what experience you have to do that.

My kids used to complain how this or that teacher was the worst in the world, and I marked that up to juvenile ignorance.

Folks second guessing Obama are cut from the same cloth as those who second guess ANY president, and I've never been impressed by motley. I only value decisions by those qualified to make them, and if you haven't had the job, you can't base your opinion on experience.

Quote:
It's easy to look back in hindsight and judge the decisions others make...


We were making these judgements while they were happening!

It's basically why the republicans lost the election. Poor presidential performance.

A lot of us caught on early but it took awhile for most of the country to wake up to the fact that this guy isn't any good.

Quote:
Yet he was elected to two terms...

So was Nixon and he thought breaking and entering was just ok!

And speaking of cut from the same cloth. All the republicans can do is dredge up the same kind of people for office. Using the same tired old rhetoric.

It's why they are largely irrelevant now and will remain so as long as they don't get what lost them the election.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #30 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Are you aware that reports prior to 911 sugested the OSBL was training people to use airplanes as weapons? These reports had been given to Bush.

Were you aware that Bush had the Bin lauden family flown out of Washington after 911?

Were you aware that as the previous head of an oil company Bush had dealings with the Bin Laudens?

Were you aware that Bush's reaction to the report that the twin towers had been hit was to continue to keep reading a book to children?

Sorry. You really don't sound unbiased.

And by the way what did we do to counter the attack?

Did we catch OSBL? No. We attacked another country that had nothing to do with the situation and we sure caught the the head of that country and he was tried and executed.

But as a newcomer you probably don't understand that we here at PO have already argued these points to death. The Bush supporters didn't come out on top.

Geez!

Translation: "Sorry. You really don't sound unbiased because you don't agree with me."

Everyone is biased. Think about it.

I am well aware of the things the Bush administration did. Do not assume I supported all of them. Did I say I supported the illegal war? Did I say I voted for Bush? McCain? Did I say I was a member of the Republican Party?

You assume too much.

I'm simply pointing out some things you may not know about. Facts are stubborn things. Please don't lump me in with your stereotypes just because I'm bringing up some facts that may challenge your conclusions.

What did we do to counter the attack? Umm...we're in Afghanistan, right? We've hunted down and detained or killed many of the top Al Qaeda leaders, have we not?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #31 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

But you know anyone in this world who takes a job of responsibility is expected to be responsible for the outcome. Not try to dodge it! That goes double for anyone with a high profile job like President.

Except Obama, right? Everything bad happening under his administration is clearly the fault of the previous one, like you said earlier.

Just thought I'd clarify for you.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #32 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Except Obama, right? Everything bad happening under his administration is clearly the fault of the previous one, like you said earlier.

Just thought I'd clarify for you.

That was exactly my point - when you run a relay you do so as a team, it's not the first guy that jumps off the line that loses it, nor is it the first guy across the finish that wins it.

Blaming anyone who runs a leg of the race for whatever reason is just ignoring the fact that the responsibility lies with team, and as for the office of the presidency, it's the office, not the man...and folks that do so just look like poor sports.
post #33 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Translation: "Sorry. You really don't sound unbiased because you don't agree with me."

Everyone is biased. Think about it.

I am well aware of the things the Bush administration did. Do not assume I supported all of them. Did I say I supported the illegal war? Did I say I voted for Bush? McCain? Did I say I was a member of the Republican Party?

You assume too much.

I'm simply pointing out some things you may not know about. Facts are stubborn things. Please don't lump me in with your stereotypes just because I'm bringing up some facts that may challenge your conclusions.

What did we do to counter the attack? Umm...we're in Afghanistan, right? We've hunted down and detained or killed many of the top Al Qaeda leaders, have we not?

To be honest you sound like people who've posted here before. People who claimed to be in the middle but proved otherwise. And right now from listening to your statements I'm just not buying it.

And yes I do believe you stated you used to be republican.
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post #34 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Except Obama, right? Everything bad happening under his administration is clearly the fault of the previous one, like you said earlier.

Just thought I'd clarify for you.

He hasn't been around long enough for something big to go wrong yet. However if he doesn't do the job he was elected for then the same would apply.

Bush on the other hand was around more than long enough. I guess I had to clarify that for you.
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post #35 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

To be honest you sound like people who've posted here before. People who claimed to be in the middle but proved otherwise. And right now from listening to your statements I'm just not buying it.

And yes I do believe you stated you used to be republican.

Yes, I used to be a member of the Republican Party. Currently I am a member of the Constitution Party.

The Republican Party has long since ceased to be the party that represents me and my core values.

I never claimed to be in the "middle" in terms of political ideology. I said I was not a member of either major political party. There is a difference.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #36 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

He hasn't been around long enough for something big to go wrong yet. However if he doesn't do the job he was elected for then the same would apply.

Bush on the other hand was around more than long enough. I guess I had to clarify that for you.

You can't have it both ways. Was Bush responsible for the mess Clinton left, or was he not? How much time do you allow before a current president is responsible for what happens while he is in office? 3 months? 1 year? 4 years?

Obama already hasn't done the job he was elected for. He promised to get our troops home. Has he? Nope. He's sending in MORE.

He's broken several more promises, too. And he's not done yet.

Bush broke a ton of promises, too. One of his big campaign things was fixing Social Security. Yep. Got a lot done there.

The sooner we wake up and realize that voting for the "lesser of two evils" isn't working, the sooner we can start getting back to our constitutional roots and save this country from itself.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #37 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

You can't have it both ways. Was Bush responsible for the mess Clinton left, or was he not? How much time do you allow before a current president is responsible for what happens while he is in office? 3 months? 1 year? 4 years?

Obama already hasn't done the job he was elected for. He promised to get our troops home. Has he? Nope. He's sending in MORE.

He's broken several more promises, too. And he's not done yet.

Bush broke a ton of promises, too. One of his big campaign things was fixing Social Security. Yep. Got a lot done there.

The sooner we wake up and realize that voting for the "lesser of two evils" isn't working, the sooner we can start getting back to our constitutional roots and save this country from itself.

Clinton handed him a mild recession ( which it was time for since we were coming off the longest running Bull market in history ) that would have ended better if Bush had handled it correctly and a surplus in the budget ( which was gone with Bush in 6 months ). Now at the end of the Bush terms Obama was handed a wrecked budget, a really bad recession, a war we shouldn't have fought, and more problems than I can relate here.

You sir are all wet! And yes you sound a lot like jubleum. That's not a place.

I really don't have the time to argue with someone I've probably argued these same points before a million times. However now the shoe is on the other foot. We have a new president. And if he succeeds even a little bit it's going to make a party that already looks bad look worse.

After the crap they've pulled I think it's justice.

I don't think you'll find many takers here. Besides after trumptman's escapades there aren't many left. It's a new world and we're moving in a new direction ( wether you like it or not ). Going over this stuff with someone who is obviously been here before and wants to dance again after the band has left is a waste of time.
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post #38 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Yes, I used to be a member of the Republican Party. Currently I am a member of the Constitution Party.

The Republican Party has long since ceased to be the party that represents me and my core values.

I never claimed to be in the "middle" in terms of political ideology. I said I was not a member of either major political party. There is a difference.

So you're a conservative member of a 3rd party and not 2D. Yeah I've heard this one before.
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post #39 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

When I make a " Prediction " I label it as such. The way you do it is known as " The bum's rush ". Pushing a subject to a supposed factual conclusion when the conclusion hasn't been reached and there's a reasonable chance it might go another way ( much like the recent election ).

Jimmac, you have a ridiculous desire to dwell on the personal. The contention that people are being "tricked" into somehow believing that when something is labeled the future it is already settled fact is just idiotic bullshit. I hope you get some help because seriously you seem to be suffering from something. You bitch about the forum being empty and dead and then any new blood that wanders in has to go through your strange 20 questions about how you already discussed this with someone else or you think they are someone else. Jazzguru has links under his personal profile that go to his blog. He is new and not some voice in your head. Stop chasing away people claiming they are someone else while simultaneously complaining about no one being here. It sounds psychotic and weird.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Translation: "Sorry. You really don't sound unbiased because you don't agree with me."

Everyone is biased. Think about it.

I am well aware of the things the Bush administration did. Do not assume I supported all of them. Did I say I supported the illegal war? Did I say I voted for Bush? McCain? Did I say I was a member of the Republican Party?

You assume too much.

I'm simply pointing out some things you may not know about. Facts are stubborn things. Please don't lump me in with your stereotypes just because I'm bringing up some facts that may challenge your conclusions.

What did we do to counter the attack? Umm...we're in Afghanistan, right? We've hunted down and detained or killed many of the top Al Qaeda leaders, have we not?

Jazz, I would recommend that you ignore the dust and concentrate on the arguments. As you note, they are trying to persecute with values they don't have (they are members of major parties, biased, etc.) and also this is dust meant to make the thread about you and ignore the real thread points.

Let the argue with the voices in their head about such bullcrap because that is what it happens to be. Personal bullcrap aka ad-homs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

To be honest you sound like people who've posted here before. People who claimed to be in the middle but proved otherwise. And right now from listening to your statements I'm just not buying it.

And yes I do believe you stated you used to be republican.

Who cares. It isn't relevant to any argument. No one needs to post "from the middle" or claimed middle to be right or wrong or hold an opinion about future events. Stop arguing from a personal, claimed past members and delusional state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Clinton handed him a mild recession ( which it was time for since we were coming off the longest running Bull market in history ) that would have ended better if Bush had handled it correctly and a surplus in the budget ( which was gone with Bush in 6 months ). Now at the end of the Bush terms Obama was handed a wrecked budget, a really bad recession, a war we shouldn't have fought, and more problems than I can relate here.

You sir are all wet! And yes you sound a lot like jubleum. That's not a place.

I really don't have the time to argue with someone I've probably argued these same points before a million times. However now the shoe is on the other foot. We have a new president. And if he succeeds even a little bit it's going to make a party that already looks bad look worse.

After the crap they've pulled I think it's justice.

I don't think you'll find many takers here. Besides after trumptman's escapades there aren't many left. It's a new world and we're moving in a new direction ( wether you like it or not ). Going over this stuff with someone who is obviously been here before and wants to dance again after the band has left is a waste of time.

We aren't going to find any takers if every person who wanders in here isn't smart enough to ignore your bullshit in claiming they are everyone you supposedly already argued this with for the last eight years. Meet jazzgugu. He is not Naples, Jubulum or anyone else you want to fixation on and accuse of personal crap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

So you're a conservative member of a 3rd party and not 2D. Yeah I've heard this one before.

Who cares. If you've heard it before then shut up and go away. Otherwise engage the point and not the person.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #40 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Jimmac, you have a ridiculous desire to dwell on the personal. The contention that people are being "tricked" into somehow believing that when something is labeled the future it is already settled fact is just idiotic bullshit. I hope you get some help because seriously you seem to be suffering from something. You bitch about the forum being empty and dead and then any new blood that wanders in has to go through your strange 20 questions about how you already discussed this with someone else or you think they are someone else. Jazzguru has links under his personal profile that go to his blog. He is new and not some voice in your head. Stop chasing away people claiming they are someone else while simultaneously complaining about no one being here. It sounds psychotic and weird.



Jazz, I would recommend that you ignore the dust and concentrate on the arguments. As you note, they are trying to persecute with values they don't have (they are members of major parties, biased, etc.) and also this is dust meant to make the thread about you and ignore the real thread points.

Let the argue with the voices in their head about such bullcrap because that is what it happens to be. Personal bullcrap aka ad-homs.



Who cares. It isn't relevant to any argument. No one needs to post "from the middle" or claimed middle to be right or wrong or hold an opinion about future events. Stop arguing from a personal, claimed past members and delusional state.



We aren't going to find any takers if every person who wanders in here isn't smart enough to ignore your bullshit in claiming they are everyone you supposedly already argued this with for the last eight years. Meet jazzgugu. He is not Naples, Jubulum or anyone else you want to fixation on and accuse of personal crap.



Who cares. If you've heard it before then shut up and go away. Otherwise engage the point and not the person.

Whatever trumpy. It's just a new/old guest on " The trumptman show ".

Which has very low viewership now days.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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