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Snow Leopard roadmap; Pro app updates in pipeline - Page 2

post #41 of 96
3/31/09 at 2:12pm
I don't even think the battle is for the desktop/laptop anymore.

It's all about the mobile device and Apple is coming from a position of
strength here.
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post #42 of 96
3/31/09 at 2:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Lightroom has proven to be far more popular than Aperture. Apple really blew this one. Great idea, only fair implementation.

I don't know what solid figures you have to back up that assertion, but I can tell you that Aperture has a huge following among professional photographers. It still has many features that Lightroom lacks, and many of us feel that it does a better job with RAW conversion. That's subjective to a certain extent, but most of my colleagues prefer Aperture 2.0's RAW conversation to Lightroom.

Now if you're on a PC, you've got no choice but to use Lightroom, which I'm sure makes it the better selling application. However, I'd say with some degree of confidence that Aperture is more popular with Mac based professional photographers.

Is it perfect? No, but it's really, really good at what it does and has made RAW workflow much more enjoyable.

FWIW: I'm an Apple certified Aperture 2.0 Pro with over 50,000 RAW images in my Aperture library. I've got a ton of experience with the application since its first (very awful 1.0) release and have compared it extensively with Lightroom. I shoot with a variety of DSLRs.
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post #43 of 96
3/31/09 at 2:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post


Mac OS X 10.5.7 Juno

Meanwhile, Mac OS X 10.5.7 remains on track for a release sometime during the month of April. The release, code-named Juno, will be the seventh maintenance and security update to Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard since its release in October 2007. It will also be one of the last updates to Leopard with Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard rapidly approaching.

Developers have been receiving new builds of Juno on a weekly basis, usually on Thursday or Friday evenings. The latest, which arrived this weekend, was labeled Mac OS X 10.5.7 build 9J39. It bundled five new fixes, bringing the total number of documented code corrections expected in the release to 99.

Amongst the areas addressed in build 9J39 were issues with iChat encryption, Mail signatures, USB drivers, and System Profiler's ability to properly show information on Mini DisplayPort adapters.

Looking at what I bold-faced, could this be the last ever maintenance update to Leopard before Snow Leopard's arrival? I doubt 10.5.7 will be the last one
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post #44 of 96
3/31/09 at 2:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KBeat View Post

I don't know what solid figures you have to back up that assertion, but I can tell you that Aperture has a huge following among professional photographers. It still has many features that Lightroom lacks, and many of us feel that it does a better job with RAW conversion. That's subjective to a certain extent, but most of my colleagues prefer Aperture 2.0's RAW conversation to Lightroom.

Now if you're on a PC, you've got no choice but to use Lightroom, which I'm sure makes it the better selling application. However, I'd say with some degree of confidence that Aperture is more popular with Mac based professional photographers.

Is it perfect? No, but it's really, really good at what it does and has made RAW workflow much more enjoyable.

FWIW: I'm an Apple certified Aperture 2.0 Pro with over 50,000 RAW images in my Aperture library. I've got a ton of experience with the application since its first (very awful 1.0) release and have compared it extensively with Lightroom. I shoot with a variety of DSLRs.

Since you put your stats down, I'll tell you that I owned a commercial photo lab in NYC for 28 years. I use both apps, as well as PS, which I've been a beta tester for since ver 1, and my company was a test site for Adobe. I'm pretty familiar with the industry.

You can get some idea of the relative popularity of the programs by going on the pro sites and seeing where the discussions are. for example, the discussions on the Luminous Landscape, a very well known, and respected site:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/

As you can see, the number of topics for Aperture is just 113, with 590 replies, whereas Lightroom has 1,798 topics, with 9,535 replies.

This is typical.

Don't forget that Apple reduced the price several times, drastically. That rarely happens with successful programs. They moved it from the professional space, where it wasn't doing well, to the amateur space.

While Aperture is more focussed on managing images, Lightroom is more focussed on editing them. Lightroom also works better as a front end to PS than does Aperture.

There's no real question in the industry about Lightroom's outselling Aperture by a wide margin. It does.

Did Apple make a mistake by keeping it Mac only? Perhaps. But it never had the same draw as FCP did when it first came out.
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post #45 of 96
3/31/09 at 3:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Since you put your stats down, I'll tell you that I owned a commercial photo lab in NYC for 28 years. I use both apps, as well as PS, which I've been a beta tester for since ver 1, and my company was a test site for Adobe. I'm pretty familiar with the industry.

You can get some idea of the relative popularity of the programs by going on the pro sites and seeing where the discussions are. for example, the discussions on the Luminous Landscape, a very well known, and respected site:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/

As you can see, the number of topics for Aperture is just 113, with 590 replies, whereas Lightroom has 1,798 topics, with 9,535 replies.

This is typical.

Don't forget that Apple reduced the price several times, drastically. That rarely happens with successful programs. They moved it from the professional space, where it wasn't doing well, to the amateur space.

While Aperture is more focussed on managing images, Lightroom is more focussed on editing them. Lightroom also works better as a front end to PS than does Aperture.

There's no real question in the industry about Lightroom's outselling Aperture by a wide margin. It does.

Did Apple make a mistake by keeping it Mac only? Perhaps. But it never had the same draw as FCP did when it first came out.

I wasn't really looking for a stat throw down, I just wanted you to know I wasn't talking out of my arse.

I would definitely agree that Lightroom is a better front end for PS for those that still do a lot of work on their photos in PS. These days, with the tools in Aperture, I have to admit I visit PS infrequently (a strange thing after years of living in that app).

I think Apple's decision on pricing was more relative to direct competition from Lightroom, something they don't really deal with in the other Pro apps, rather than a failure of the app necessarily, although that first release was painful.

I hope that development of the application continues. Lightroom exists because of Aperture, and Aperture got much better very quickly because of Lightroom. Adobe, for a number of reasons, isn't my favorite company these days and if they suddenly have no competition in the RAW workflow space, it will not bode well for us photographers.
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post #46 of 96
3/31/09 at 3:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KBeat View Post

Quote:
Lightroom has proven to be far more popular than Aperture. Apple really blew this one. Great idea, only fair implementation.

I don't know what solid figures you have to back up that assertion

I ran across this a while back:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13580_3-9798653-39.html

"Market researcher InfoTrends surveyed 1,026 pro photographers in North America, and of them, 23.6 percent use Lightroom and 5.5 percent use Aperture, according to the blog of Photoshop senior product manager John Nack Tuesday.

Windows is more widely used than Mac OS X, and Aperture is available only on the latter operating system. But even among Mac users, Aperture is used by 14.3 percent to Lightroom's 26.6 percent."

This predates Aperture 2, but that's a lot of ground to make up between Adobe's two apps. I can't imagine Aperture has taken a huge amount of market share. I only know a couple pro photographers, but their opinion was that Adobe is never leaving this market. Apple on the other hand, has got a lot else going on and if Aperture doesn't sell well, Apple might put it on the back burner or worse drop it.
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post #47 of 96
3/31/09 at 3:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Aperture 2 is rated 4.5 stars on Amazon

Maybe the issue is you. There's something that isn't vibing with you. Have you tried Lightroom?

I wouldn't go to lightroom having been with Aperture since the start. That said, you got to admit, it IS very much due for an upgrade. My friends with Lightroom are making me feel behind the times and forgotten by Apple.
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post #48 of 96
3/31/09 at 5:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by suckerpunch86 View Post

Looking at what I bold-faced, could this be the last ever maintenance update to Leopard before Snow Leopard's arrival? I doubt 10.5.7 will be the last one

10.5 will be supported after 10.6 ships. Unlike past releases Snow Leopard doesn't just cut off a few older machines it cuts off the entire PowerPC architecture. My 2.7GHz G5 is still a viable machine for most tasks and feels faster than many of the early Intel Macs I've used at work. I guess we'll get one or even two dot releases of Leopard after SL ships plus security updates until 10.7 is released in 2011.
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post #49 of 96
3/31/09 at 6:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Most people really don't want to move from what they're comfortable with. Windows works well enough for most people, or they wouldn't be still using it.

I'm surprised Apple doesn't offer a simple way to "port" all of a (prior) windows user's documents, music (into iTunes), photos (into iPhoto) - AND bundle Parallels or VMWare to access their old apps if/when necessary. Even perhaps email settings (and actual emails?), explorer bookmarks, etc.

It would seem to be a useful way of moving across.
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post #50 of 96
3/31/09 at 6:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bregalad View Post

10.5 will be supported after 10.6 ships. Unlike past releases Snow Leopard doesn't just cut off a few older machines it cuts off the entire PowerPC architecture.

I agree. We might even see the streamlined interface of Snow Leopard making a partial appearance (ie: wherever it's possible) on today's Leopard.

I read AppleInsider's comment that Leopard is reaching its last point updates as simply an assumption based on past OS upgrades.
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post #51 of 96
3/31/09 at 10:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregAlexander View Post

I agree. We might even see the streamlined interface of Snow Leopard making a partial appearance (ie: wherever it's possible) on today's Leopard.

I read AppleInsider's comment that Leopard is reaching its last point updates as simply an assumption based on past OS upgrades.

Then it's most likely that we will see more point updates after Snow Leopard's release till they release its first ever maintenance update.
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post #52 of 96
3/31/09 at 10:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KBeat View Post

I wasn't really looking for a stat throw down, I just wanted you to know I wasn't talking out of my arse.

I would definitely agree that Lightroom is a better front end for PS for those that still do a lot of work on their photos in PS. These days, with the tools in Aperture, I have to admit I visit PS infrequently (a strange thing after years of living in that app).

I think Apple's decision on pricing was more relative to direct competition from Lightroom, something they don't really deal with in the other Pro apps, rather than a failure of the app necessarily, although that first release was painful.

I hope that development of the application continues. Lightroom exists because of Aperture, and Aperture got much better very quickly because of Lightroom. Adobe, for a number of reasons, isn't my favorite company these days and if they suddenly have no competition in the RAW workflow space, it will not bode well for us photographers.

I can't really agree with you on this.

Aperture has done poorly in the professional markets. That doesn't mean that it's dead there altogether. Lightroom was being developed for years before Aperture came out. It's certainly not a response to it.
FCP had far more competition when it first came out. Premiere on the Mac was around much longer, and cost considerably less, but FCP's price wasn't reduced. Apple did add features that were extra cost, over time though. Premiere didn't leave the Mac because Adobe was miffed as some said at the time, but because FCP ate its lunch.

This didn't happen with Aperture. PS is far more popular than both programs put together, as it will remain. But Lightroom contains the full ACR, so it has superb control over what happens to the mosiac, whereas Aperture has inferior tools, but is better in organization.

Aperture is more useful for the wedding and event photographer, whereas Lightroom is better for the fashion and commercial photographer.
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post #53 of 96
3/31/09 at 11:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelcruncher View Post

I ran across this a while back:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13580_3-9798653-39.html

"Market researcher InfoTrends surveyed 1,026 pro photographers in North America, and of them, 23.6 percent use Lightroom and 5.5 percent use Aperture, according to the blog of Photoshop senior product manager John Nack Tuesday.

Windows is more widely used than Mac OS X, and Aperture is available only on the latter operating system. But even among Mac users, Aperture is used by 14.3 percent to Lightroom's 26.6 percent."

This predates Aperture 2, but that's a lot of ground to make up between Adobe's two apps. I can't imagine Aperture has taken a huge amount of market share. I only know a couple pro photographers, but their opinion was that Adobe is never leaving this market. Apple on the other hand, has got a lot else going on and if Aperture doesn't sell well, Apple might put it on the back burner or worse drop it.

I find the same thing to be true.

I was really rooting for Aperture, and I use all three programs, along with other converters.

But, Apple blew it from the gate, and has never been able to recover from that. It should have been held another 6 months, or even another year. Of course, Lightroom would have been out by then.

But there's an old saying. "It can take a long time to destroy a good reputation, but it takes a longer time to recover from getting a bad reputation in the beginning." I will add "If at all."

Apple has a bad habit of abandoning programs if they don't see them doing well, or if Apple has a different idea about where they want to go. Adobe has rarely done this. They even brought Premiere back to the Mac, better than ever.
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post #54 of 96
3/31/09 at 11:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by machei View Post

I wouldn't go to lightroom having been with Aperture since the start. That said, you got to admit, it IS very much due for an upgrade. My friends with Lightroom are making me feel behind the times and forgotten by Apple.

Now that Apple "officially" has announced that Aperture is also for amateur photogs, it looks as though it's on the backburner, though I hope that's not so.
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post #55 of 96
3/31/09 at 11:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregAlexander View Post

I'm surprised Apple doesn't offer a simple way to "port" all of a (prior) windows user's documents, music (into iTunes), photos (into iPhoto) - AND bundle Parallels or VMWare to access their old apps if/when necessary. Even perhaps email settings (and actual emails?), explorer bookmarks, etc.

It would seem to be a useful way of moving across.

I thought there was a way to do that from Apple.
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post #56 of 96
4/1/09 at 1:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Now that Apple "officially" has announced that Aperture is also for amateur photogs, it looks as though it's on the backburner, though I hope that's not so.

Is there any rumors for Aperture 3 ?

Love to see it being able to take advantage of the new Nehalem octocore. I wonder if existing users will pay for the upgrade. I'd move to lightroom but the interface is awful compare to Aperture.

Gavin
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post #57 of 96
4/1/09 at 7:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by i386 View Post

Is there any rumors for Aperture 3 ?

Love to see it being able to take advantage of the new Nehalem octocore. I wonder if existing users will pay for the upgrade. I'd move to lightroom but the interface is awful compare to Aperture.

Gavin

I think Aperture is fine. There generally aren't a bunch of rumors surfing about the program until just before it's updated.

Apple continues to enhance Core Image API which directly affect the featureset of Aperture.
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post #58 of 96
4/1/09 at 10:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by i386 View Post

Is there any rumors for Aperture 3 ?

Love to see it being able to take advantage of the new Nehalem octocore. I wonder if existing users will pay for the upgrade. I'd move to lightroom but the interface is awful compare to Aperture.

Gavin

None that I know of. Apple is usually tight lipped about every product until they're ready to show something.

I really don't think there's a high priority for this app. To bad really. If Apple wanted to, they could really improve it. They seem to have lost interest, as it hasn't done as well as they had hoped.

A bunch of people here were crowing that this would doom Photoshop, but of course, the pro community isn't that easily moved. The app would have had to really been dynamite.
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post #59 of 96
4/1/09 at 10:48am
I don't really subscribe to this Vista vs Leopard argument. Anecdotally speaking, over the past two years most of the people I know who have switched to Mac, didn't really know much of anything about Vista or its difference from OS X. They were switching to the Mac regardless.

It seems the far majority of people who do understand the problems with Vista just stayed with XP, never had any intention of switching to the Mac.

Looking at the larger picture Windows 7 will have a bigger job of convincing people to switch from XP, than any threat it may have from OS X.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Unfortunately, Apple's position is such that 7 doesn't HAVE to bring much more to the table. All it needs to do well is to work ok. It was Vista's faults, and perceived faults that have been driving people to the Mac. It was also MS's long climb to get it out the door that helped before that.
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post #60 of 96
4/1/09 at 10:59am
Really? Making the UI more like iTunes is significant? Really the only thing that looks that different is the scroll bars. Am i missing something?
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post #61 of 96
4/1/09 at 11:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I don't really subscribe to this Vista vs Leopard argument. Anecdotally speaking, over the past two years most of the people I know who have switched to Mac, didn't really know much of anything about Vista or its difference from OS X. They were switching to the Mac regardless.

It seems the far majority of people who do understand the problems with Vista just stayed with XP, never had any intention of switching to the Mac.

Looking at the larger picture Windows 7 will have a bigger job of convincing people to switch from XP, than any threat it may have from OS X.

I can't agree with that. Apple's Tv ads are thought to have had a big effect on switchers, and their main thrust has been OS X vs Vista. Unlike you, I do know people who moved to the Mac rather than buy a new Vista machine. I suspect that a lot of people have done so.

It's not a matter of people switching from XP to Vista in their current machines. Only people who bought a machine within a year of Vista's release did that, older machines couldn't run the OS. Those people who had machines that couldn't upgrade to Vista were major candidates for Macs, because they were wanting to buy a new machine anyway.

Many people have been made nervous about all the problems with, and talk about, the virus problems on the Windows platform as well, something that Vista, despite the publicity otherwise from MS, hadn't really diminished.

Right now, Apple's sales are down. I hope that Win 7, which looks as though it might come out in May, won't keep people on the Win platform who otherwise might have moved to Macs.

If the release of Win 7 goes smoothly, it could have that effect.

I don't want to be too secure in my thinking about Apple's success. It isn't easy. This economic situation has caused a lot of assumptions to go down the drain. We can't get too complacent.

Remember the phrase that investment houses are required to use in their ads:

"Past performance doesn't guarantee future performance." Paraphrasing, of course.
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post #62 of 96
4/1/09 at 11:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MotherBrain View Post

Really? Making the UI more like iTunes is significant? Really the only thing that looks that different is the scroll bars. Am i missing something?

They are likely not showing many major GUI changes yet.
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post #63 of 96
4/1/09 at 11:11am
That's just it, though. OS X has never really been a "threat" to Windows, nor will it be with Apple's current business model. Is it a better OS? The answer to that question is and always will be a matter of opinion and personal preference.

For me, OS X is more intuitive, responsive, stable, user-friendly, and has just the right amount of eye-candy without going overboard. I've tried Windows 7 Beta since its release, and it is just a modified version of Vista--improved in performance and stability for sure, yet still lacking the overall refinement and user experience that OS X has long mastered. It is still undeniably Windows.

Those who have always used Windows and have no desire to try any other OS will be happy with Windows 7, no doubt. I am sure most will gladly dump Vista (Vista will go the way of Windows ME) or upgrade from XP. Will Windows 7, coupled with cheap hardware, lure people away from Macs en masse? Nope.

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post #64 of 96
4/1/09 at 11:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

They are likely not showing many major GUI changes yet.

That is what happened with Leopard. There were certainly changes along the way, but absurdly close to the GM release they switched up a lot with the Beta. So much that things became considerably less usable in the developer Betas until the GM was finally introduced.

I think that the rumours of a UI change will happen much sooner and smoother this time around. Well, I hope so anyway.
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post #65 of 96
4/1/09 at 11:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

That is what happened with Leopard. There were certainly changes along the way, but absurdly close to the GM release they switched up a lot with the Beta. So much that things became considerably less usable in the developer Betas until the GM was finally introduced.

I think that the rumours of a UI change will happen much sooner and smoother this time around. Well, I hope so anyway.

They don't have the pressure they had last time, or the time before that, so I hope you're right.
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post #66 of 96
4/1/09 at 11:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

They don't have the pressure they had last time, or the time before that, so I hope you're right.

With MS working on making Win 7 more streamlined, and with Grand Central and OpenCL being two major foundation features that they can't easily back out of from the final release I think that Apple has considerable pressure at the other end of the spectrum to make this release as streamlined and powerful as they can muster before an official release.
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post #67 of 96
4/1/09 at 11:59am
I think for the majority of people received a simple message from the Apple ads: Mac is better than PC. I don't believe most people understand all the details of why, they just believe the perception.

I'd wager if you walked into a coffee shop and asked the Mac users if they were using the Mac because of problems with Vista. The majority of people could articulate reasons they chose a Mac over Windows in general, but the majority would not be able to articulate specific issues with Vista.

I think over all Apple has hit a tipping point of popularity for various reasons. Vista may be one part of it but I see no evidence that it is a primary reason.



Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I can't agree with that. Apple's Tv ads are thought to have had a big effect on switchers, and their main thrust has been OS X vs Vista. Unlike you, I do know people who moved to the Mac rather than buy a new Vista machine. I suspect that a lot of people have done so.

It's not a matter of people switching from XP to Vista in their current machines. Only people who bought a machine within a year of Vista's release did that, older machines couldn't run the OS. Those people who had machines that couldn't upgrade to Vista were major candidates for Macs, because they were wanting to buy a new machine anyway.

Many people have been made nervous about all the problems with, and talk about, the virus problems on the Windows platform as well, something that Vista, despite the publicity otherwise from MS, hadn't really diminished.

Right now, Apple's sales are down. I hope that Win 7, which looks as though it might come out in May, won't keep people on the Win platform who otherwise might have moved to Macs.

If the release of Win 7 goes smoothly, it could have that effect.

I don't want to be too secure in my thinking about Apple's success. It isn't easy. This economic situation has caused a lot of assumptions to go down the drain. We can't get too complacent.

Remember the phrase that investment houses are required to use in their ads:

"Past performance doesn't guarantee future performance." Paraphrasing, of course.
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post #68 of 96
4/1/09 at 12:02pm
Apple has never had an issue with abandoning legacy code. I don't think they have a problem with streamlining OS X. We already know Apple is getting letting go of the universal binary code and shrinking all of OS X's apps.

MS cannot so easily let go of legacy code, what can MS radically do to streamline Windows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

With MS working on making Win 7 more streamlined, and with Grand Central and OpenCL being two major foundation features that they can't easily back out of from the final release I think that Apple has considerable pressure at the other end of the spectrum to make this release as streamlined and powerful as they can muster before an official release.
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post #69 of 96
4/1/09 at 12:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Now that Apple "officially" has announced that Aperture is also for amateur photogs, it looks as though it's on the backburner, though I hope that's not so.

I hope not as well. I prefer Aperture to Lightroom for a number of reasons (although Lightroom got much better with version 2) and competition in this space is really important. Last time I was at the "Mother Ship" the product manager seemed really happy with Aperture's development and reception since 2 had been released. But hey, what else would he tell me?

iPhoto is a very, very successful application for Apple, and the development teams seem to feed one another. I don't mine Apple making Aperture more attractive to amateurs (seems like everyone has a DSLR these days), so long as they keep working with and support the pros.
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post #70 of 96
4/1/09 at 2:05pm
Yes they do abandon hardware all the time especially anything that does not sell well, but I cannot think of too many software suites that they abandon. Especially where they attempted to build a 3rd party plug in platform.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Apple has a bad habit of abandoning programs if they don't see them doing well, or if Apple has a different idea about where they want to go. Adobe has rarely done this. They even brought Premiere back to the Mac, better than ever.
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post #71 of 96
4/1/09 at 2:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Ah, bad news to me.

care to explain some logic into that statement?


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hows the pneumonia BTW?
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post #72 of 96
4/1/09 at 5:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

With MS working on making Win 7 more streamlined, and with Grand Central and OpenCL being two major foundation features that they can't easily back out of from the final release I think that Apple has considerable pressure at the other end of the spectrum to make this release as streamlined and powerful as they can muster before an official release.

I'm talking about the internal pressure they had with getting the original iPhone out the door on time. That problem no longer exists. The later upgrades don't have to be on a strict schedule.

MS may ship Win 7 in late May, according to latest reports. If true, that takes the pressure off Apple. There's no way they can hope to match that, so they can take their time to get it right.
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post #73 of 96
4/1/09 at 5:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I think for the majority of people received a simple message from the Apple ads: Mac is better than PC. I don't believe most people understand all the details of why, they just believe the perception.

I'd wager if you walked into a coffee shop and asked the Mac users if they were using the Mac because of problems with Vista. The majority of people could articulate reasons they chose a Mac over Windows in general, but the majority would not be able to articulate specific issues with Vista.

I think over all Apple has hit a tipping point of popularity for various reasons. Vista may be one part of it but I see no evidence that it is a primary reason.

No matter how you look at it, a large part of Mac upgraders will be previous Mac owners, so that kind of survey may not be useful.

But there's been an awful amount of bad press associated with Vista, and Longhorn before the name change. A lot of people are aware of that.

Also people new to computers will have heard plenty from both sides. I don't believe that they are all so ignorant.
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post #74 of 96
4/1/09 at 5:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Yes they do abandon hardware all the time especially anything that does not sell well, but I cannot think of too many software suites that they abandon. Especially where they attempted to build a 3rd party plug in platform.

They abandoned Appleworks, the best selling software they ever had. They could have improved it, but decided to go in an entirely different direction. It took years before they came close to providing all that it had, though individual programs in iworks were better.

They never gave those of us who owned it upgrade pricing either!

How far do you want to go back? MacPaint?

They abandoned major parts of the OS, well after third parties has given them major support. This was well before OS X that Im talking about.

iDVD hasn't see any improvements for a couple of years, because Apple doesn't want us making DVD's anymore, they want us to put all our stuff in Mobile ME instead.

There are other major areas in which they've abandoned software.

Heck, AOL was an Apple division before they sold it and the name was turned into AOL.
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post #75 of 96
4/2/09 at 9:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

No matter how you look at it, a large part of Mac upgraders will be previous Mac owners, so that kind of survey may not be useful.

Well we could change the scenario and randomly ask Windows users the difference in problems between XP and Vista. Most would not know.

Quote:
But there's been an awful amount of bad press associated with Vista, and Longhorn before the name change. A lot of people are aware of that.

Also people new to computers will have heard plenty from both sides. I don't believe that they are all so ignorant.

There has been a lot of bad press about Vista, but I don't think most people are paying any attention to the detailed differences between XP, Vista, or Windows 7. I think there is a growing perception against Windows in general, not simply against its specific versions.
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post #76 of 96
4/2/09 at 9:32am
Well with this logic you could say that Apple abandoned the original Mac OS. Technically they did but it was replaced with something better. There is some degree of logic why Apple did what it did in the examples you've shown. I cannot see in any of these examples why they would abandon Aperture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

They abandoned Appleworks, the best selling software they ever had. They could have improved it, but decided to go in an entirely different direction. It took years before they came close to providing all that it had, though individual programs in iworks were better.

They never gave those of us who owned it upgrade pricing either!

How far do you want to go back? MacPaint?

They abandoned major parts of the OS, well after third parties has given them major support. This was well before OS X that Im talking about.

iDVD hasn't see any improvements for a couple of years, because Apple doesn't want us making DVD's anymore, they want us to put all our stuff in Mobile ME instead.

There are other major areas in which they've abandoned software.

Heck, AOL was an Apple division before they sold it and the name was turned into AOL.
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post #77 of 96
4/2/09 at 12:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

They never gave those of us who owned it upgrade pricing either!

I've always felt that upgrade pricing complaints in relation to iLife, iWork, and even OS X are a bit of a red herring. If Apple charged for those products what most competitors charge for similar software packages, then the $79 ($129 on OS X) price point would be the upgrade price. Combined with the fact that the latest version of these suites come free with most Mac purchases, I don't think expecting an upgrade price below $79 is realistic.

Given the choice between $79 for all customers, or something along the lines of $149 for new customers and $79 for others, I'll take the former. Also, taking into account that pretty much anyone with a Mac has a copy of iLife and OS X, aren't all sales, by default, upgrades anyway?
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post #78 of 96
4/2/09 at 12:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KBeat View Post

I've always felt that upgrade pricing complaints in relation to iLife, iWork, and even OS X are a bit of a red herring. If Apple charged for those products what most competitors charge for similar software packages, then the $79 ($129 on OS X) price point would be the upgrade price. Combined with the fact that the latest version of these suites come free with most Mac purchases, I don't think expecting an upgrade price below $79 is realistic.

Given the choice between $79 for all customers, or something along the lines of $149 for new customers and $79 for others, I'll take the former. Also, taking into account that pretty much anyone with a Mac has a copy of iLife and OS X, aren't all sales, by default, upgrades anyway?

Agreed the complaints about no upgrade pricing stem from the ASSumption that the upgrade pricing should be cheaper. As you point out this doesn't take into consideration the actual value of the apps. iLife and iWork are certainly worth more than $79 if one is actually going to use a majority of the applications in the suite.

Also many can't see the forest through the trees. If Apple ships out full versions as the upgrade it doesn't obsolete your prior purchase. I sold my iWork 08 for %30 of its value and this would have been more difficult had I just had an upgrade disc for iWork 09.
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
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He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
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post #79 of 96
4/2/09 at 12:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Well we could change the scenario and randomly ask Windows users the difference in problems between XP and Vista. Most would not know.



There has been a lot of bad press about Vista, but I don't think most people are paying any attention to the detailed differences between XP, Vista, or Windows 7. I think there is a growing perception against Windows in general, not simply against its specific versions.

I don't think that most non technical people really do think about the details, or specifics of these problems. You're right there. But I don't think that matters. They hear about Vista having a lot of problems. That's all they need to hear about that. Those who want to upgrade from XP are either told that their machine won't take it, or find out for themselves after they buy it. That's all they need to know as well.

Some of their friends have moved to Macs and told them that they have no problems with virus's, which is a problem that everyone has heard about, or had experience with on their own machine, or possibly at work.

Overall, these things have been pushing some people to Macs.

You do have to remember that while the rise in Mac ownership over the past three years or so has been large, it only represents a very small part of the Windows community. It's easy to realize that those are the people who are aware of these problems.

Perhaps if more Windows users were also aware of these problems, they would have switched.

As Windows users need to get new machines, why would they want a Mac, with all the hassles it entails, unless there is a reason for them to do so? What would that reason, or reasons be? It's not people saying, "Oh, I think I'll do something different, and start all over agin, from scratch."
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post #80 of 96
4/2/09 at 12:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Well with this logic you could say that Apple abandoned the original Mac OS. Technically they did but it was replaced with something better. There is some degree of logic why Apple did what it did in the examples you've shown. I cannot see in any of these examples why they would abandon Aperture.

If sales don't meet their goals, and they are not making money, and even losing it, they will drop it like a hot potato.
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