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New Palm Pre apps underscore Apple's iPhone limitations

post #1 of 213
Thread Starter 
While third-party apps are being trumpeted as the iPhone's strength, key Palm Pre demos this week were designed to highlight their restrictions by taking advantage of those precise things that Apple won't allow.

At Sprint's press lounge during the CTIA Wireless Association's annual event, Palm stressed the advantages of the new webOS platform at the heart of the Pre by running presentations of carefully selected third-party software live on sample phones.

The most advanced was Pandora's Internet radio app. On an iPhone OS device, the music service is partly neutered by Apple's refusal to allow true background tasks, preventing users from listening to streams while they run other chores; on the Palm Pre, Pandora not only runs in the background but hooks into the always-on notification bar to let listeners approve or dismiss songs without having to even switch active tasks.

Sunnyvale, Calif.-based Palm also underlined Apple's refusal to permit interpreting code within tjhird-party apps by showcasing an emulator that does just this. Mobile software developer MotionApps released an app known as Classic that, much as with Apple's own Classic that was present in Mac OS X until Leopard, recreates the entire working environment for an older operating system. In the case of webOS, it lets Pre users run PalmOS apps near full speed and as just one of any other, native apps that can be running at the same time.

MotionApps' Classic running with Pandora controls in the notification bar.

A less dramatic but still noteworthy demo emphasized the ability for apps to cross-pollinate contacts, calendars and other information in its Synergy framework. One of the more popular iPhone movie app developers, Fandango, has built a webOS port that not only enables buying movie tickets online but which will automatically book off the movie's running time for a calendar appointment without having to leave the software itself. iPhone apps are more limited in which apps they can touch and must quit to let the receiving app load the new content. It won't be until iPhone OS 3.0 that users can e-mail a note or a discovery without first exiting the current process.

All webOS apps, regardless of nature, are treated equally and in a special manager appear as "cards" -- essentially live, individual programs that can be quit with a flicking motion.

Apple has long justified its decisions on what third-party apps can and can't do as attempts to maintain security and speed on its still young mobile OS. By halting third party apps from running their own, separate programs and limiting their other privileges in the operating system, Apple hopes to prevent malware from spreading through rogue iPhone apps. It likewise points to tests of rivalling operating systems like Windows Mobile which showed major reductions in battery life by letting software run completely active while still in the background.

Fandango in the webOS "card" view, or its task manager.

The iPhone maker's planned background push notification for iPhone OS 3.0 will solve some of this by permitting apps that need to receive alerts, such as instant messaging clients, to send alerts through an online channel of information. But by requiring an active Internet connection and declining to let the programs themselves run, Apple has not only denied the system to iPhone and iPod touch owners without Internet links but has prevented games and some other non-alert programs from running as expected.

Regardless of what the Pre and webOS may do correctly for app developers, however, timing may potentially sink Palm's success in attracting developers as wells as Palm owners. Palm and Sprint continue to cling to a "first half of 2009" release date in spite of more than half of that time already having disappeared. With a late spring launch now the most likely, Palm may have to contend directly with Apple's third-generation iPhone launch expected at or around WWDC in June.
post #2 of 213
If those are limitations then i'm fine with that.

If I'm listening to music i'm listening to music. I don't want to surf and try to manage Pandora decisions.

I don't think the interpreting code example was sufficient. iPhones have no legacy software so we cannot understand how Apple would have dealt with adding compatibility.

Under no circumstances do I want to buy Fandango tickets and have it calendar the event. I only use Fandango when there's a chance I may not get into the theater which is rare. I'd never use it to plan out further than a day or two. No need to calendar.

All this comes from my own perspective and desire for features. I speak only for myself.
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post #3 of 213
Well the whole classics thing is completely moot. What is the point of bringing that up in the article?

I wouldn't mind an API to hook into the calendar store, its one of the very few things missing from the new API's in 3.0 IMO.

Also i'm still not sold on the backgrounding, we don't know how the battery will handle that, also unless you manage your tasks a lot you're going to slow that phone down pretty easy. The hardware is a lot beefier than the iPhone's 2 year old hardware but it runs slower, or on par at best compared to iPhone with only a few apps running.
post #4 of 213
So tell me again how well Pandora and Fandango will work without a web connection, for those Pre owners without access?
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post #5 of 213
The iPhone sucks pure and simple and is being funded by idiots with non existent standards with a me too, narcissistic complex. A generation of media brainwashed zombies. 3 revisions before you get cut, copy & paste? Zombie generation with no standards! A fourth generation to get a video camera? No office apps? Things that i have on my ancient Treo 650 or even my prehistoric Treo 600.

I have a Treo 650 running Palm OS and it does so much for me as smartphone. Yes the browser is such a nightmare but it does a lot for example i can schedule a meeting and have all pertinent information at my finger tips like contact info, notes, etc all attached to one event. All i do is drag and drop or "clip" the items in Palm Desktop, sync and all that info is at my fingertips. Or when i call the roadside assistance folks, i'm able to talk and pull up all the vin number and info they need all from my address book and open up other apps for more information. Lots of useful applications for it even one to tether that does not get me charged by Sprint.

I've had no issue with background apps nor any battery problems. I love the use of the stylus, it makes data entry and selecting things easier for me. Video camera as well. Seriously who is Apple to dictate to me how i can and can not use my device? If there is a malware issue, then there will be companies to make anti-malware software. Apps run on my Treo 650 in background fine, i'm sure the mighty iPhone hardware and OS can handle it or can it? The only thing my Treo does not do well and is lacking is its browser. What BS from Apple, they just don't have the skill or engineering know how. All they do well is sell bright shiny, expensive, backward nonsense gobbled up by a genration of mindless, no standards zombies who are pitifully trying to act cool, self important and sophisticated.

Until they become a legitimate smartphone and start playing with the big boys (money has nothing to do with qualifying to play with the big boys of tech), i'm not buying one. I may just move to the PRE.
post #6 of 213
iLad,

I respect your ability to make you own judgements. But might I suggest that you tone it down?

Currently, you make it appear that the only brainwashed fool around here is you...
post #7 of 213
The Pre is an interesting smartphone. I'm sure Palm's marketing department is spinning everything possible about the Pre however, until an actual "real" production phone is out there, the Pre is just vaporware to me.

Palm seems to emphasize always-on and background processing? Let's see how well that battery lasts with everything running. You forget to shut an app and put in in your pocket? Will you have a dead battery in 30 minutes then? What about rogue-apps? What is Palm's policy about folks that have a darker agenda? App-store? Elves and Unicorns? What exactly do they offer?

I'm not smacking the Pre. In fact, we need more players in this arena besides RIM. But like everything else, makers will make their product sound like it is the best thing since sliced bread only to find it moldy when it is actually introduced.

The Pre is interesting. Given how late in the game they are and the fact that RIM and Apple have pretty much cornered the market in this category, Palm has to wrestle two 800-pound gorillas. They better have a true deal-breaker here. They are already handicapped with the wireless carrier. No mention of international carriers yet.

I will wait. But it looks like stormy weather out in the horizon for Palm.
post #8 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by iLad View Post

The iPhone sucks pure and simple and is being funded by idiots with non existent standards with a me too, narcissistic complex. A generation of media brainwashed zombies. 3 revisions before you get cut, copy & paste? Zombie generation with no standards! A fourth generation to get a video camera? No office apps? Things that i have on my ancient Treo 650 or even my prehistoric Treo 600.

Right... Are you referring to the same "idiots" that introduced a product in what was described in the past as on oversaturated market and practically dominated the consumer-segment and changed the rules?

Your comment - while being childish - was also a wasted effort. Sales figures alone for Apple being a new-player pretty much washes out any type of whining/hatred you may have for them. From the tone of your post, you're just a flamebaiting troll.

Palm has a long way to go to catch up to both RIM and Apple. Their effort is noble. Their Hostsync system is a total joke. I used to be a Palm developer years ago until they abandoned their developer community and the executives took the money and ran. Apple's iPhone ecosystem is an immense improvement for developers than what Palm had going on. Palm will get no sympathy from me and has a lot of damage-control to do with their former-developer community.

But I welcome any player to the market to keep everyone else on their toes. Competition is always good for the consumer.
post #9 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by iLad View Post

The iPhone sucks pure and simple and is being funded by idiots with non existent standards with a me too, narcissistic complex. A generation of media brainwashed zombies. 3 revisions before you get cut, copy & paste? Zombie generation with no standards! A fourth generation to get a video camera? No office apps? Things that i have on my ancient Treo 650 or even my prehistoric Treo 600.

I have a Treo 650 running Palm OS and it does so much for me as smartphone. Yes the browser is such a nightmare but it does a lot for example i can schedule a meeting and have all pertinent information at my finger tips like contact info, notes, etc all attached to one event. All i do is drag and drop or "clip" the items in Palm Desktop, sync and all that info is at my fingertips. Or when i call the roadside assistance folks, i'm able to talk and pull up all the vin number and info they need all from my address book and open up other apps for more information. Lots of useful applications for it even one to tether that does not get me charged by Sprint.

I've had no issue with background apps nor any battery problems. I love the use of the stylus, it makes data entry and selecting things easier for me. Video camera as well. Seriously who is Apple to dictate to me how i can and can not use my device? If there is a malware issue, then there will be companies to make anti-malware software. Apps run on my Treo 650 in background fine, i'm sure the mighty iPhone hardware and OS can handle it or can it? The only thing my Treo does not do well and is lacking is its browser. What BS from Apple, they just don't have the skill or engineering know how. All they do well is sell bright shiny, expensive, backward nonsense gobbled up by a genration of mindless, no standards zombies who are pitifully trying to act cool, self important and sophisticated.

Until they become a legitimate smartphone and start playing with the big boys (money has nothing to do with qualifying to play with the big boys of tech), i'm not buying one. I may just move to the PRE.

************** troll.

Stick to your Treo ****.

Why bother coming to an Apple News web site?

My guess is that you are a closet Apple wannabe, well you know what you are not welcome or wanted.

*********!
EDIT:

Please refrain from using such language like that again.
post #10 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

I don't think the interpreting code example was sufficient. iPhones have no legacy software so we cannot understand how Apple would have dealt with adding compatibility.

The biggest thing it really prevents is device emulation and it means no way to legitimately put a SNES emulator or ScummVM emulator on the iphone. The game manufacturers could make a whole load more revenue from say Donkey Kong running on the iphone.

Donkey Kong came out in 1994. People who are 15 now, may have missed the franchise entirely. They are available through Nintendo's virtual console thing but the iphone/ipod touch is a big market.

With proper optimization, they could even make a PSone emulator. Connectix made one that ran perfectly on a 350-400MHz iMac.

It's not a huge loss though as there are definitely very few cases where emulation would be useful and no doubt the companies who own the franchises would have some grievance about it anyway.

Still, the Pre doesn't really offer this functionality anyway. The emulator isn't a web app and the SDK for the public only allows Javascript code. There's no reason why Apple couldn't have bundled an emulator of some sort - it's just like you said, they simply didn't need to as they have no legacy software that needs to be supported. Apple Newton apps maybe.

What will be funny is if Apple bring out a Tegra-based multi-core ARM iphone because running low-level apps on that vs javascript code on the Pre will show up so much difference in speed. Now, the question that will arise is, does a smartphone really need to be that fast. I would say no it doesn't if it's only going to be a smartphone.

But what if Apple were making 10" docking stations for a 32GB iphone that has a full blown version of Snow Leopard on it? Leopard itself uses up 15GB install. If this is significantly cut down, which Apple say it is then it could work. It still has the limitation we shouldn't forget that it will still be an ARM processor so it won't run Mac apps but the apps need to be recompiled for touch support anyway.

An iphone that's also a netbook would be amazing and the Nvidia Tegra demo was a great example. Apple could perhaps write an x86 binary translator for running x86 code on the iphone just so that basic apps worked.
post #11 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by iLad View Post

The iPhone sucks pure and simple and is being funded by idiots with non existent standards with a me too, narcissistic complex. A generation of media brainwashed zombies. 3 revisions before you get cut, copy & paste? Zombie generation with no standards! A fourth generation to get a video camera? No office apps? Things that i have on my ancient Treo 650 or even my prehistoric Treo 600.

I have a Treo 650 running Palm OS and it does so much for me as smartphone. Yes the browser is such a nightmare but it does a lot for example i can schedule a meeting and have all pertinent information at my finger tips like contact info, notes, etc all attached to one event. All i do is drag and drop or "clip" the items in Palm Desktop, sync and all that info is at my fingertips. Or when i call the roadside assistance folks, i'm able to talk and pull up all the vin number and info they need all from my address book and open up other apps for more information. Lots of useful applications for it even one to tether that does not get me charged by Sprint.

I've had no issue with background apps nor any battery problems. I love the use of the stylus, it makes data entry and selecting things easier for me. Video camera as well. Seriously who is Apple to dictate to me how i can and can not use my device? If there is a malware issue, then there will be companies to make anti-malware software. Apps run on my Treo 650 in background fine, i'm sure the mighty iPhone hardware and OS can handle it or can it? The only thing my Treo does not do well and is lacking is its browser. What BS from Apple, they just don't have the skill or engineering know how. All they do well is sell bright shiny, expensive, backward nonsense gobbled up by a genration of mindless, no standards zombies who are pitifully trying to act cool, self important and sophisticated.

Until they become a legitimate smartphone and start playing with the big boys (money has nothing to do with qualifying to play with the big boys of tech), i'm not buying one. I may just move to the PRE.

Wake up man!
YOU are the only one whose qualified to be a MORON around here...
Such a looser you are!!
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post #12 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by parky View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by iLad View Post

The iPhone sucks pure and simple and is being funded by idiots with non existent standards with a me too, narcissistic complex. A generation of media brainwashed zombies. 3 revisions before you get cut, copy & paste? Zombie generation with no standards! A fourth generation to get a video camera? No office apps? Things that i have on my ancient Treo 650 or even my prehistoric Treo 600.

I have a Treo 650 running Palm OS and it does so much for me as smartphone. Yes the browser is such a nightmare but it does a lot for example i can schedule a meeting and have all pertinent information at my finger tips like contact info, notes, etc all attached to one event. All i do is drag and drop or "clip" the items in Palm Desktop, sync and all that info is at my fingertips. Or when i call the roadside assistance folks, i'm able to talk and pull up all the vin number and info they need all from my address book and open up other apps for more information. Lots of useful applications for it even one to tether that does not get me charged by Sprint.

I've had no issue with background apps nor any battery problems. I love the use of the stylus, it makes data entry and selecting things easier for me. Video camera as well. Seriously who is Apple to dictate to me how i can and can not use my device? If there is a malware issue, then there will be companies to make anti-malware software. Apps run on my Treo 650 in background fine, i'm sure the mighty iPhone hardware and OS can handle it or can it? The only thing my Treo does not do well and is lacking is its browser. What BS from Apple, they just don't have the skill or engineering know how. All they do well is sell bright shiny, expensive, backward nonsense gobbled up by a genration of mindless, no standards zombies who are pitifully trying to act cool, self important and sophisticated.

Until they become a legitimate smartphone and start playing with the big boys (money has nothing to do with qualifying to play with the big boys of tech), i'm not buying one. I may just move to the PRE.

************** troll.

Stick to your Treo ****.

Why bother coming to an Apple News web site?

My guess is that you are a closet Apple wannabe, well you know what you are not welcome or wanted.

*********!

Great argument in Apple's defence Parky. You should be their lawyer!
"If you put your mind to it, you can accomplish anything" Robert Zemeckis/Bob Gale/Robert_E._Lee
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post #13 of 213
Apple can probably write a Pre emulator for the iPhone.


Palm needs Pandora to run in the background because Palm doesn't a music platform. The Pre is so thick I'll bet 80% of it is a battery. It will run 3 days with 10 background running.
post #14 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by striker_kk View Post

Wake up man!
YOU are the only one whose qualified to be a MORON around here...
Such a looser you are!!

And another great set of well-thought out arguments. Well done you!

How dare anyone criticise the great Apple?! Outrageous.

It's healthy for people to give constructive criticism. What's the point of just constantly praising something in blind adoration? It's like you're in love with someone and don't notice the mole on their chin anymore.

I actually think iLad had some really valid points - and I'm a big fan of Apple - seriously. I hate Microsoft, and alot of the mobile phone market has been playing catchup in areas like presentation, usability and stability. Some of you guys really need to take your heads out of Apple's butt and see the big picture. The iPhone is a great product for sure, no denying that. But it was very slow at getting some basics right that should have been there from day one.

If we praise and criticise it in an intelligent and constructive way then we can make it an even better product.
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post #15 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by parky View Post

************ troll.

Stick to your Treo ****.

Why bother coming to an Apple News web site?

My guess is that you are a closet Apple wannabe, well you know what you are not welcome or wanted.

*********!

Wow. Is anyone else grateful that this guy is speaking on "our" behalf?

I think Apple's got it pretty close on their first generation mobile platform. It's a real achievement. But that's not to say that people don't want things like background processes. How many people IM, for instance? Having a notification server is a hack, in the end. A workaround to meet a certain architectural philosophy.

There's a big "so-what" about the preclusion of background apps. Apple's releasing turn-by-turn in 3.0. So you're running your hypothetical GarTom66 to get to there from here. For some reason, that has to stop you from streaming music from somewhere. Why? For a device that's meant to be everything to everybody, single tasking is D-U-M dumb.

I'm gonna wait until the Pre and the next iPhone come out till I push the button on a new phone. I'm currently packing a Nokia E71 - I suspect either will blow my current phone to the moon but I'm leaning toward the Pre at the moment. The contacts integration really struck a chord with me.
post #16 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

The biggest thing it really prevents is device emulation and it means no way to legitimately put a SNES emulator or ScummVM emulator on the iphone. The game manufacturers could make a whole load more revenue from say Donkey Kong running on the iphone.

Donkey Kong came out in 1994. People who are 15 now, may have missed the franchise entirely. They are available through Nintendo's virtual console thing but the iphone/ipod touch is a big market.

With proper optimization, they could even make a PSone emulator. Connectix made one that ran perfectly on a 350-400MHz iMac.

It's not a huge loss though as there are definitely very few cases where emulation would be useful and no doubt the companies who own the franchises would have some grievance about it anyway.

Still, the Pre doesn't really offer this functionality anyway. The emulator isn't a web app and the SDK for the public only allows Javascript code. There's no reason why Apple couldn't have bundled an emulator of some sort - it's just like you said, they simply didn't need to as they have no legacy software that needs to be supported. Apple Newton apps maybe.

I don't think emulators you mention above are a good choice. The is a point of having an emulator for something that is still developing, like JavaVM, but no point emulating dead platforms with very limited user base.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iLad

The iPhone sucks pure and simple and is being funded by idiots with non existent standards with a me too, narcissistic complex. A generation of media brainwashed zombies.

I respectfully disagree. Few months ago I was in a country where most people never heard about Apple, and the common supposition is that Nokia rules, the rest is crap. Those who are following the smartphone development are convinced that RIM is for the serious guys and the iPhone is a toy for schoolgirls. Most of them never tried the iPhone though. After playing around for a while with my iPhone some of those guys actually did like it. Well, others stayed with their previous opinion but everybody agreed that the browser and the mail app are great. For me, and for many others I believe, these are the two applications I use most, at least 90% of the time I use iPhone apps I guess.

I know that the iPhone has limitations (btw, cut and paste is not going to make into my top 10 complains), I would also wish that the developers could have more freedom - some of the things which annoy me could be resolved by third parties by now - but overall I like it, and I think it is a good compromise as far as the alternatives are concerned.

I also had a chance to play with the Pre for some time. I would rank it second after the iPhone. Actually, the only one besides the iPhone with a very good touch interface. For me it is a good device but not a "killer". It feels nowhere near the "4 times faster" claim. In many cases it felt actually slower. Well, it is still in development, but it will be a good competition for the iPhone when it is released. The only thing that might kill it is the huge over-expectation so many people are building for it.

I am pretty sure that a good competition is the only thing that will keep Apple going forward and innovating.

Finally, let's keep in mind that the comparison between the Pre and the iPhone is a comparison with the already old version of a device (1.5 years as far as the processor is concerned) and the future version of a yet-to-be released product. Keep in mind that the result of the P.A. Semi buyout is yet to be seen [hint, hint]. So the second thing that might kill it is the new iPhone.

The biggest limitation of the iPhone is the restricted availability. In US and most other countries iPhone is within the reach of around 30% or less of the population, at least as far as the provider user base is concerned. I hope Apple really did the math right, and they make more profit this way, rather then selling the iPhone to everybody that wants it.
post #17 of 213
I think the direction that Palm has taken with the Pre is smart, but it has its own limitations.

The Pre really only runs one App at a time. In fact it only has one app.
It runs a Webkit based browser, which can make use of data cached on the device.

The contacts page, the email interface are all just web-apps. Specialized web pages.

So when the Pre appears to be running multiple switchable applications, it is really just managing multiple web pages. Several pages are open at the same time and the user can flip between them, just like flipping pages in Mobile Safari.

Apple's very first iPhone was released with a similar level of "web-page" programmability. But I think Palm has done a better job. Their web apps have access to local data, can be cached on the device and can get access to the hardware. No need to load the app from the net.

This approach is brilliant, but restrictive.

More and more desktop applications are becoming web apps. Palm's web-apps are better than Apple's web apps. And we know that Web apps are fine for email, lists, rss-readers, image viewers, to-do lists and so on.

But there are things we can't do well on web pages.
Apple's native applications can do things that web-apps cannot. The single best example is games. Games need to run in native code. Get un-fettered access to the hardware, and want to use up 100% of the CPU.

Native apps are going to be intrinsically more efficient. Any given task is going to burn less battery when it runs in native code.

The two approaches are both valid. And I think had Palm copied Apple's solution, it would be doomed to playing catch up forever.

Should be interesting to see what happens next.

As someone invested in the iPhone, I think the Palm Pre is the best thing that could have happened to Apple.

C.
post #18 of 213
While I think the iPhone could use some improvements, the fact remains it's an amazing device. Apple has never been about reinventing the wheel or making "the car with the most horsepower." In other words, the iPhone, while flawed, is more than the sum of its parts.

As for the article: AI's articles are really starting to suck lately. The piece is almost anti-iPhone. No one wants a cheerleading piece, but the entire article is biased. Specifically, I don't think the limitations of the iPhone they list are the ones that most people are concerned about. The exception would be running Pandora in the background. It would be nice to listen to internet radio while doing something else. I'm sure it would suck for battery life, but still--it would be nice.

The real limitations of the iPhone--in my view--are:

--The camera. It needs much higher resolution, a flash and video. Still, I find it useful today.
--No MMS support. (Also, I think ATT blocks access to "viewmymessage.com" over their network).
--Unreliable network/3G. (a.k.a "ATT SUCKS") and dropped calls.
--Wireless sync
--Flash support
--Message indicator (voicemail,missed calls) that can be seen when the screen is off.
--Volume on calls too low
--Auto typing corrections annoys the hell out of me. Let me confirm the suggestion, not deny it. If I don't use the suggestion, don't keep bringing it up every damn time.

Here are more: http://pleasefixtheiphone.com/
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post #19 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

I think the direction that Palm has taken with the Pre is smart, but it has its own limitations.

Apple's ... approach is brilliant, but restrictive.

The two approaches are both valid. And I think had Palm copied Apple's solution, it would be doomed to playing catch up forever.

Should be interesting to see what happens next.

As someone invested in the iPhone, I think the Palm Pre is the best thing that could have happened to Apple.

Good perspective.

I was a Palm user from 1997 until last Friday when my girlfriend gave me a 32GB iPod touch.

My first impression was that the iPhone/iPod touch platform is light years ahead of the old Palm OS. I've not used my iPod touch long enough to have much of a real daily use opinion.

It seems that Palm has to be much more self-contained, whereas the iPhone/touch platform relies heavily and is almost an extension of the Mac OS. Yes, it runs a variant of OS X, but as a Mac user, they're far more interwoven than the Palm experience. Finally ditching The Missing Sync alone was worth the switch!

It will be extremely interesting to watch, especially with a more level playing field (Apple, RIM, Nokia, Palm... maybe?... is WinMo even a serious player?) than we ever witnessed in the personal computer world.
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post #20 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by iLad View Post

I love the use of the stylus, it makes data entry and selecting things easier for me. PRE.

And the rotary dial on my old phone kept my wrist nicely toned.

LOL, moving right along . . .
post #21 of 213
The Pre is currently vapourware.

I'd like to see a launch first. Then maybe, just maybe I'll believe it'll have a future.

The Pre is currently unreleased, untested, and allegedly underfunded. All we're seeing are controlled demos of what looks to be a prototype.

We're already into April. When exactly do they plan to release this thing??
post #22 of 213
Hey trollboy, the Pre would be pretty fucked without Apple's contribution to WebKit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iLad View Post

The iPhone sucks pure and simple and is being funded by idiots with non existent standards with a me too, narcissistic complex. A generation of media brainwashed zombies. 3 revisions before you get cut, copy & paste? Zombie generation with no standards! A fourth generation to get a video camera? No office apps? Things that i have on my ancient Treo 650 or even my prehistoric Treo 600.

I have a Treo 650 running Palm OS and it does so much for me as smartphone. Yes the browser is such a nightmare but it does a lot for example i can schedule a meeting and have all pertinent information at my finger tips like contact info, notes, etc all attached to one event. All i do is drag and drop or "clip" the items in Palm Desktop, sync and all that info is at my fingertips. Or when i call the roadside assistance folks, i'm able to talk and pull up all the vin number and info they need all from my address book and open up other apps for more information. Lots of useful applications for it even one to tether that does not get me charged by Sprint.

I've had no issue with background apps nor any battery problems. I love the use of the stylus, it makes data entry and selecting things easier for me. Video camera as well. Seriously who is Apple to dictate to me how i can and can not use my device? If there is a malware issue, then there will be companies to make anti-malware software. Apps run on my Treo 650 in background fine, i'm sure the mighty iPhone hardware and OS can handle it or can it? The only thing my Treo does not do well and is lacking is its browser. What BS from Apple, they just don't have the skill or engineering know how. All they do well is sell bright shiny, expensive, backward nonsense gobbled up by a genration of mindless, no standards zombies who are pitifully trying to act cool, self important and sophisticated.

Until they become a legitimate smartphone and start playing with the big boys (money has nothing to do with qualifying to play with the big boys of tech), i'm not buying one. I may just move to the PRE.
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post #23 of 213
Quote:
I love the use of the stylus, it makes data entry and selecting things easier for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

And the rotary dial on my old phone kept my wrist nicely toned.

LOL, moving right along . . .

Didn't other activities give you an iron-strong wrist?

Actually, a stylus IS a nice thing for text entry.

Since my fingertip covers 6 letters (or more!) on the iPod touch keypad, I OFTEN mis-type. I got a Pogo Sketch stylus and it's pretty nice, not perfect. The only drawbacks are where to keep it and having to push a little harder to trigger a letter. But, I just seem to type faster and more confidently with it.

A finger isn't ALWAYS the best tool.
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post #24 of 213
As a consumer and not a developer, Palm has still successfully avoided answering every question I deem important in my buying decisions. The price, the cost of contract, release date and finally battery life. Until amy of these questions are answered I really barely care about this "hype" palm is spinning. The pandora concept is very enviable, just last night I was sad I couldn't play pandora and surf the net, but at least I use my device all day and rarely am concerned with the battery. Talk about something important palm, this is ridiculous.
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post #25 of 213
I can't decide which is worst. The bias in this so called article (puts Apple to shame is so wrong on so many levels) or the lousy photography. Not a single picture is properly focused. WTF AI. This is ZDnet quality.
post #26 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by der passant View Post

I can't decide which is worst. The bias in this so called article (puts Apple to shame is so wrong on so many levels) or the lousy photography. Not a single picture is properly focused. WTF AI. This is ZDnet quality.

It also doesn't seem to have been spell-checked:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

...interpreting code within tjhird-party apps...

\
"If you put your mind to it, you can accomplish anything" Robert Zemeckis/Bob Gale/Robert_E._Lee
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"If you put your mind to it, you can accomplish anything" Robert Zemeckis/Bob Gale/Robert_E._Lee
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post #27 of 213
1. The "Card" paradigm is a glorified task manager that make switching apps easier but I am convinced that you forget to quit your apps it will drain your battery and it will degrade performance.

2. The "Synergy" integrated contacts and other environments I think will pollute user data with extraneous information and lead to confusion. It may also provide an automation facility for viruses and worms.

3. Take a close look at the Cut-Copy-Paste procedures and capabilities on the iPhone against all other phones including the Pre and you will have to agree that it is well worth the wait. By the way the Pre has no "accurate" method of selecting text using the touch screen. From the demos that I have seen, it should be called "swipe and pray".

3. The "keyboard". I find Apple's virtual keyboards much easier to use than other physical keyboards. I can easily tap the correct keys using my thumb while single handedly holding the phone. Have you ever tried to dial a phone number or an alpha-numeric number on a non-TouchScreen blackberry? Trust me, it's a nightmare. The Pre does have a key pad but the keyboard looks just like a blackberry.

Overall, I think the Pre touchscreen UI looks nicer than many other touchscreen phones but I also think that the engineers were allowed to play "cowboy" and implement some wild UI features that are really not consistent because Palm was desperate for something new and flashy.

Time will tell.
post #28 of 213
This is a pretty interesting article. My last 3 phones have been WinMo phones (5, 6, and currently 6.1). While WinMo does take a constant bashing, I don't really find anything wrong with it for the most part. There are outstanding WinMo phones out there by HTC, Samsung, etc that put their own finger gesture UI on top of WinMo so for the most part you don't have to deal with WinMo directly. I do like that I have a bit more control of WinMo without having to jailbreak it, but I also enjoy the various cooked ROMs available.I do think there are some advantages of WinMo over the iPhone, but I'm sure that's been covered ad nauseum but I wanted to drop my 2 cents. My point it, I have the first gen iPod Touch and I absolutely love it.

The Palm Pre is definitely interesting, but it's not the phone for me and isn't that what it's really going to come down to -- personal preference? Even though I've been using WinMo phones, I rarely use it the way it's intended - as a business centric phone. While it's capable of playing music, I use it mainly as a phone and for texting. Why did I get a beefier phone over a phone that's designed specifically for texting? I like the robustness of WinMo and experimenting with apps and ROMs.

I agree about backgrounding and I'm not sure how useful it'll be to the general public. There are a fair share of iPhone/Touch apps that let you listen to your own music while you're using the app, but just all apps seems to do a "save state" when you hit the Home button anyway, so isn't that essentially like running multiple apps? It's not true backgrounding, but the result is the same. You're minimizing (or in Apple's case, closing) one app to work in another. But when you come back to the previous app, you're still at the same point you were. It's not like Windows or OS X where you can balance multiple windows on your screen and do several things at once. Apple's allowing the essential processes to run background in 3.0 but I can see where listening to music while doing something on the phone comes in handy (train/bus commutes, etc), but I think most people, especially the younger generation, are accustomed to carrying more than one device anyway. They may be listening to an older gen iPod while playing their NDS or PSP. I play a ton of games on my Touch but I don't even listen to the sound effects as the games don't require it.

I do hope the 3.2mp camera in the next iPhone is just a rumor. You'd think it would be at least 5mp by now, but I rarely take pics or video with my phone anyway so it's not a big deal. I hear video recording is insanely popular in overseas but again, I've had no real need for it personally.

The Pre is no doubt great for competition and looks speedy as hell. I haven't been impressed with many Blackberries but I have no reason to use them. And because I love my Touch so much, I've pretty much already decided my next phone will be the next iPhone. The 3.0 software is introducing some greatly needed enhancements and that's pretty much all I'll need. The App Store is great and the apps are cheap (vs WinMo apps where some can cost up to $40 or more). I've never been a fan of iTunes but the later versions do exactly what I need to do, and that's sync my Touch.

Palm was actually pretty smart. They let Apple come up with a great interface and developed their own phone. Let someone else come up with the design and then build on it. Not saying Palm copied Apple's design, but they definitely learned from it.

The Palm doesn't look very thin. After carrying 3 generations of HTC phones in my pocket, I'm ready for something thinner. But I am liking the looks and features of the HTC Touch Pro 2.

Okay, I think I've babbled enough and I hope I said something useful lol Oh yeah, the Pre's Touchstone charging looks fantastic. There's a demo video online somewhere (intomobile I think?) and it was pretty cool. You just set the Pre on the charger (I think the guy said it was slightly magnetized to hold it in place) but if you got a call, the speaker phone automatically initiated. If you pull the phone off the charger while still on the call, the phone automatically switches to the receiver. If you place it back on the charger, it switches back to speaker.
post #29 of 213
Lol, congrats iLad, you are the first iPhone troll we found!!! Woo hoo!!!, we always see Windows Trolls around here but rarely iPhone trolls. Go back to your mud swamp troll!

Anyway, I must say there are some points that Palm made will throw a few punches at Apple but that doesn't mean Apple is not doing anything right also, its very good that Apple is doing its best to prevent malware or spyware by being totally controlling over 3rd Party Apps, of course developers will whine here and there when their apps get rejected but which one will we prefer? A almost/complete malware/virus free environment but restrictive or a free environment but full of craps? I I prefer the earlier one.
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post #30 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilad View Post

the iphone sucks pure and simple and is being funded by idiots with non existent standards with a me too, narcissistic complex. A generation of media brainwashed zombies. 3 revisions before you get cut, copy & paste? Zombie generation with no standards! A fourth generation to get a video camera? No office apps? Things that i have on my ancient treo 650 or even my prehistoric treo 600.

I have a treo 650 running palm os and it does so much for me as smartphone. Yes the browser is such a nightmare but it does a lot for example i can schedule a meeting and have all pertinent information at my finger tips like contact info, notes, etc all attached to one event. All i do is drag and drop or "clip" the items in palm desktop, sync and all that info is at my fingertips. Or when i call the roadside assistance folks, i'm able to talk and pull up all the vin number and info they need all from my address book and open up other apps for more information. Lots of useful applications for it even one to tether that does not get me charged by sprint.

I've had no issue with background apps nor any battery problems. I love the use of the stylus, it makes data entry and selecting things easier for me. Video camera as well. Seriously who is apple to dictate to me how i can and can not use my device? If there is a malware issue, then there will be companies to make anti-malware software. Apps run on my treo 650 in background fine, i'm sure the mighty iphone hardware and os can handle it or can it? The only thing my treo does not do well and is lacking is its browser. What bs from apple, they just don't have the skill or engineering know how. All they do well is sell bright shiny, expensive, backward nonsense gobbled up by a genration of mindless, no standards zombies who are pitifully trying to act cool, self important and sophisticated.

Until they become a legitimate smartphone and start playing with the big boys (money has nothing to do with qualifying to play with the big boys of tech), i'm not buying one. I may just move to the pre.

yes, doofus, please do. And don't post here again.
post #31 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by iLad View Post

Until they become a legitimate smartphone and start playing with the big boys (money has nothing to do with qualifying to play with the big boys of tech), i'm not buying one. I may just move to the PRE.

Isn't it nice that the marketplace provides different products for people with different requirements. My most important features are music, movies games, tons of apps on a lovely and vibrant screen. My wants and desires are different than yours.
post #32 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffharris View Post

Didn't other activities give you an iron-strong wrist?

Actually, a stylus IS a nice thing for text entry.

Since my fingertip covers 6 letters (or more!) on the iPod touch keypad, I OFTEN mis-type. I got a Pogo Sketch stylus and it's pretty nice, not perfect. The only drawbacks are where to keep it and having to push a little harder to trigger a letter. But, I just seem to type faster and more confidently with it.

A finger isn't ALWAYS the best tool.

Hehe . . . well if you've got fingertips that are a bit too meaty, then I can understand your position. Typing on the iPhone can be tricky.
post #33 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdaddyguido View Post

battery life.

Agreed, I'd love some actual info on this.
post #34 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by iLad View Post

The iPhone sucks pure and simple and is being funded by idiots with non existent standards with a me too, narcissistic complex. A generation of media brainwashed zombies.....

... and other such trash..

you need help
post #35 of 213
Quote:
But by requiring an active Internet connection and declining to let the programs themselves run, Apple has not only denied the system to iPhone and iPod touch owners without Internet links but has prevented games and some other non-alert programs from running as expected.

I'm not clear what this sentence from the article means.
post #36 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

The biggest thing it really prevents is device emulation and it means no way to legitimately put a SNES emulator or ScummVM emulator on the iphone. The game manufacturers could make a whole load more revenue from say Donkey Kong running on the iphone.

Donkey Kong came out in 1994. People who are 15 now, may have missed the franchise entirely. They are available through Nintendo's virtual console thing but the iphone/ipod touch is a big market.

While that is currently an issue I can see allowing select developers access to emulation. Especially now that they are allowing in app purchases. For instance, running an Atari emulator from Atari that allows you to purchase hundreds of their games from within the emulator app. This seems like a revenue stream that Apple won't want to pass up in the long run.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

I think the direction that Palm has taken with the Pre is smart, but it has its own limitations.

The Pre really only runs one App at a time. In fact it only has one app.
It runs a Webkit based browser, which can make use of data cached on the device.

The contacts page, the email interface are all just web-apps. Specialized web pages.

Here is a screenshot of the iPhone doing the same, but without the Apple-funded WebKit using HTML5's local cacheing...

If the Pre becomes popular and these background app rouse catches on can we expect Apple to follow suit by allowing developers to make simple, Pre-like apps that run in the same manor that will run in the backgorund. We'll then have pure web apps, localized web apps and true iPhone apps. Sounds like a pretty solid environment for every developer's needs. If Apple can't get a revenue stream from localized web pages I doubt they would do it.

PS: Does the Pre really need an SDK for HTML, CSS and Java?
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post #37 of 213
I'd love to have all the benefits of the iPhone (including background push which is coming), PLUS have the background apps as seen on the Pre, AND have unhindered battery life, RAM usage, speed and stability (the things that typically suffer from background apps).

Since having all that in one is impossible and will be for some time to come (until faster iPhones and iPhone OS 4.0 maybe?) I'll have to settle for having SOME of that. There's no avoiding compromise. I'll take the first and third things, and give up "true" background apps.

Most iPhone apps "pause" nicely and launch quickly anyway... and push is coming which doesn't hog battery and RAM. So Pandora is about the only app I'd really WANT in the background anyway. Maybe on my next iPhone next year. And if other apps can switch more quickly by staying loaded, that will be a nice little side benefit. We know the iPhone OS can multitask, it's simply disabled because it's a bad idea (in some ways) until mobile hardware improves.

(And of course, the Pre, like iPhone OS 3.0, is still in the future anyway. The Pre looks like it will beat iPhone OS 3.0 to market... but not by much. We'll get our push IM apps about the same time Pre buyers get their Pres.)
post #38 of 213
Wake up dude, over 12 million sold, that hardly sucks, this has been the most incredibly phone ever product, its only going to get better. Palm is barely hanging on, do you not read the press. However, if the Pre is a a success competition is always good for the market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iLad View Post

The iPhone sucks pure and simple and is being funded by idiots with non existent standards with a me too, narcissistic complex. A generation of media brainwashed zombies. 3 revisions before you get cut, copy & paste? Zombie generation with no standards! A fourth generation to get a video camera? No office apps? Things that i have on my ancient Treo 650 or even my prehistoric Treo 600.

I have a Treo 650 running Palm OS and it does so much for me as smartphone. Yes the browser is such a nightmare but it does a lot for example i can schedule a meeting and have all pertinent information at my finger tips like contact info, notes, etc all attached to one event. All i do is drag and drop or "clip" the items in Palm Desktop, sync and all that info is at my fingertips. Or when i call the roadside assistance folks, i'm able to talk and pull up all the vin number and info they need all from my address book and open up other apps for more information. Lots of useful applications for it even one to tether that does not get me charged by Sprint.

I've had no issue with background apps nor any battery problems. I love the use of the stylus, it makes data entry and selecting things easier for me. Video camera as well. Seriously who is Apple to dictate to me how i can and can not use my device? If there is a malware issue, then there will be companies to make anti-malware software. Apps run on my Treo 650 in background fine, i'm sure the mighty iPhone hardware and OS can handle it or can it? The only thing my Treo does not do well and is lacking is its browser. What BS from Apple, they just don't have the skill or engineering know how. All they do well is sell bright shiny, expensive, backward nonsense gobbled up by a genration of mindless, no standards zombies who are pitifully trying to act cool, self important and sophisticated.

Until they become a legitimate smartphone and start playing with the big boys (money has nothing to do with qualifying to play with the big boys of tech), i'm not buying one. I may just move to the PRE.
post #39 of 213
I wish Palm all the best with Pre and whatever else they might come up with. I like how they are being less restrictive than Apple, but the Pre is not for me, I'm happy with my iPhone and don't feel that I need any of features the Pre has.
The Pre should attract different buyers than the iPhone, and would most probably cut WinMo's and Symbian's slice of the smartphone pie, a little.

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iPod nano 5th Gen 8GB Orange, iPad 3rd Gen WiFi 32GB White
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post #40 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

If those are limitations then i'm fine with that.

If I'm listening to music i'm listening to music. I don't want to surf and try to manage Pandora decisions.

All this comes from my own perspective and desire for features. I speak only for myself.

I couldn't disagree with you more. If there was ever a task or two that begged for background tasking it is music and surfing the web. And for the bit rates that pandora and other http streamers use the impact on the surfing would not be much of a hindrance. I'm speaking for everyone in this case
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