or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Mobile › iPhone › New Palm Pre apps underscore Apple's iPhone limitations
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

New Palm Pre apps underscore Apple's iPhone limitations - Page 4

post #121 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maury Markowitz View Post

I feel compelled to say this again: there is an easy way that Apple could address at least some, if not the majority, of user needs for "multitasking" if they simply allowed developers to plug into the three backgrounding apps you already have, Phone, SMS and iPod.

If, for instance, Skype could plug the VOIP side of their application into Phone, then all of the features people want Skype to have instantly appear. Since Phone is always running, it would keep you logged into Skype and thereby allow incoming calls at any time. It would also mean you could exit your conversation to use other apps, not get kicked off when another call comes in, and lets you use a single interface for all your calling duties.

Likewise, Skype's chat side should be plugged into the SMS app, which is already on its way to being renamed "Messages". Pandora would plug into iPod.

Yes, this would not solve problems with things like loopd, but it would still solve a LOT of problems with practically zero cost.

Maury

Apple already addressed the problems of Skype-like applications with iPhone OS 3.0. Those apps do not need to be running if they get a notification when they need it. There are applications that can't benefit from this. In many cases they do not need to run in the background as well, but receive notifications on location change, by a timer etc.

It is important to understand that that:
  • iPhone OS IS a multitasking OS
  • Apple's decision to disallow the always running applications for third parties is not done to intentionally abuse the user, neither it is made by idiots. Most of the people on this boards don't have the expertise to discuss whether it is the right decision or not. It is definitely a compromise and it is perfectly OK to complain regarding distinct user experience problems but not theorize on the matter without deeper understanding of the real problems.
  • Whether the Pre design decisions and implementation are better than Apple's remain to be seen. Don't go too far with your conclusions when comparing a future product with a one year old (I would say almost two years old, in terms of processor and part of the hardware) product. Hold off your final judgment untill the Pre and the next iPhone actually ship.
  • Everyone seems obsessed by the couple of possible but unproven advantages of the Pre/WebOS and don't see a number of obvious advantages of the old iPhone versus the future Pre.
  • Even if the Pre turns out to be a superior device running a superior operating system, Palm will have hard time winning against Apple.

The advantages of the current iPhone against the yet-to-be released Pre are numerous, staring with the OpenGL ES/game development support, external device support (with iPhone OS 3.0), excellent syncing with the main computer via Mobile Me service (at least from the point of view of a mac user), mature developer tools and huge developer following, huge number of avilable applications, huge accessories ecosystem etc. etc. etc

Even some of the advertised Pre advantages are questionable. Could the hardware keyboard change it's style from enter-e-mail-style to enter-URL-style to Search/Nexr/Return button, to say nothing of the localization. You know, the US-only keyboard sucks for the majority of the world. Palm may ned to release localized versions at least for some countries, but that is yet another production/inventory problem they will need to manage.
post #122 of 213

At what point does someone stop being an objective consumer? At what point did you guys stop demanding a better product from Apple? It's obvious people here don't care about an honest opinion if it in any way goes against Apple. Do you limit your narrowed one way thinking to Apple products or do you apply this arrogant view to other things? I mean, do you drive one type of car or buy one type of cereal?

A lot of limitations of the iphone are artificial, and put in place by Apple for bad reasons. It's a great phone, so much so in fact that when I got rid of it, I ended up buying an ipod touch, but doesn't it frustrate you guys that something like copy and paste only comes around when another company steps up to the plate and offers a serious contender? Face it, Apple could have given everyone copy and paste from day one, but they didn't. It wasn't until the Pre was just around the corner that Apple decided to "revolutionize" the industry with something that's been around since 1993. This is typical Apple behavior, and you fanboys allow it to happen by bending over backwards and accepting it with open cheeks.

Take my advice: Never stop seeing the BS Apple feeds you. When you become a consumer who buys things because you are told to buy them, you actually inhibit innovation.
post #123 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post


At what point does someone stop being an objective consumer? At what point did you guys stop demanding a better product from Apple? It's obvious people here don't care about an honest opinion if it in any way goes against Apple. Do you limit your narrowed one way thinking to Apple products or do you apply this arrogant view to other things? I mean, do you drive one type of car or buy one type of cereal?

Well the problem with your statements is that you assume you have the fullest understanding of what a better product is and that we don't. Starting a discussion by saying you are stupid and I am smart is not the best way to begin.

Quote:
A lot of limitations of the iphone are artificial, and put in place by Apple for bad reasons.

That is your opinion but what ultimately determines if Apple has made good choices are sales and profits.

Quote:
It's a great phone, so much so in fact that when I got rid of it, I ended up buying an ipod touch, but doesn't it frustrate you guys that something like copy and paste only comes around when another company steps up to the plate and offers a serious contender? Face it, Apple could have given everyone copy and paste from day one, but they didn't. It wasn't until the Pre was just around the corner that Apple decided to "revolutionize" the industry with something that's been around since 1993. This is typical Apple behavior, and you fanboys allow it to happen by bending over backwards and accepting it with open cheeks.

This is your misunderstanding of the finer detail of how these things work. People come on these forums and take a stance as though they know so much and then make statements that clearly show they don't know what they are talking about at all.

Functionality in software does not just happen by magic. People have to sit and write code, that code has be tested and perfected before it gets to the point of being usable. Every company has a limit in the number of talented people it can use to write this code. So they have to build software is stages and add functionality incrementally. Companies have to choose what software is most important to add sooner and what can wait until later. These choices have to be made and their is no way to do it any faster.

Part of the reason why it has taken copy and paste so long is because copy and paste on a finger touch screen is new. Its an entirely different problem from a pixel accurate pointer or a stylus. The BlackBerry Storm has finger touch copy and paste and all of the reviews says its horrible.

Another part of the reason it has taken so long is because once Apple choose the copy and paste gesture they are stuck with it. They likely took their time in figuring out what would be the best gesture for copy/paste to make sure they will not need to change it later.

No Apple did not suddenly add copy and paste simply because the Pre was announced with copy and paste. Mind you the Pre is not yet an available product, no one has used it to judge how well it works. Apple would have had to plan what was going to be in the iPhone 3.0 months if not over a year ago, long before the Pre was ever known about. They cannot just flip and switch and suddenly add features, iPhone 3.0 was planned long ago.

Quote:
Take my advice: Never stop seeing the BS Apple feeds you. When you become a consumer who buys things because you are told to buy them, you actually inhibit innovation.

Discussions on the list would be much more productive and informative if people actually came with real substantive information, not accusations and low brow name calling.

If you want that you need to go to Engadget.
post #124 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Well the problem with your statements is that you assume you have the fullest understanding of what a better product is and that we don't. Starting a discussion by saying you are stupid and I am smart is not the best way to begin.

I do have the fullest understanding of what a better product is, and I never said you are stupid and I am smart. It speaks volumes that you read my statements this way. Someone with an opinion different from yours must be attacking you right? That's interesting...
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

That is your opinion but what ultimately determines if Apple has made good choices are sales and profits.

Really? You know the pet rock did pretty good...
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

This is your misunderstanding of the finer detail of how these things work. People come on these forums and take a stance as though they know so much and then make statements that clearly show they don't know what they are talking about at all.

Well, as a software developer, I must say this is a pretty funny statement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Functionality in software does not just happen by magic. People have to sit and write code, that code has be tested and perfected before it gets to the point of being usable. Every company has a limit in the number of talented people it can use to write this code. So they have to build software is stages and add functionality incrementally. Companies have to choose what software is most important to add sooner and what can wait until later. These choices have to be made and their is no way to do it any faster.

Again, excuses excuses excuses. The iphone is a smart phone is it not? What kind of smart phone can't do copy and paste? It's a simple function that should have been implemented from day one. I have no doubt in my mind that Apple had the code, but used this as just one of those "future enhancements" they implement to keep people from switching to another phone just at the right moment (Pre is right around the corner.)

Hey let me ask you this, when tegra comes out, you think Apple will allow video recording? Hmm, maybe you guys can line up around the block then to get something your phone is already capable of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Part of the reason why it has taken copy and paste so long is because copy and paste on a finger touch screen is new. Its an entirely different problem from a pixel accurate pointer or a stylus. The BlackBerry Storm has finger touch copy and paste and all of the reviews says its horrible.

Excuses
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Another part of the reason it has taken so long is because once Apple choose the copy and paste gesture they are stuck with it. They likely took their time in figuring out what would be the best gesture for copy/paste to make sure they will not need to change it later.

Excuses
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

No Apple did not suddenly add copy and paste simply because the Pre was announced with copy and paste.

Yes they did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Mind you the Pre is not yet an available product, no one has used it to judge how well it works.

Tell that to the reviewers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Apple would have had to plan what was going to be in the iPhone 3.0 months if not over a year ago, long before the Pre was ever known about.

You're absolutely correct. You see, Apple DID plan what was going into 3.0 long ago, but much longer than you think. Artificial limitations are easy to fix, and are better appreciated just before the competition hits the market.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

They cannot just flip and switch and suddenly add features, iPhone 3.0 was planned long ago.

No, I'm sure it isn't as simple as flipping a switch. A group of greedy corporate big wigs have to agree to flip that switch, and when, and that's really hard work!
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Discussions on the list would be much more productive and informative if people actually came with real substantive information, not accusations and low brow name calling.

If you want that you need to go to Engadget.

Wake up! You're proving my point and you don't even see it. Why do you think so many people jailbreak their iphones? They shouldn't have to do that!
post #125 of 213
I suggest everyone read this, from Gruber.

It's a great explication of how good platform development works, as it relates to the iPhone.

Basically, Apple knew they were building a new, hopefully successful, necessarily extensible platform. As such, they had to get the nuts and bolts right. It was more important to get the frameworks and underpinnings right then it was to put the bells and whistles in, because when you get he former right the latter will come.

This is the opposite of what most phone manufacturers are doing, which is to concentrate on bells and whistles at the expense of having any kind of robust, extensible, well thought out and future proof framework.

Quote:
The iPhone was not conceived merely as a single device or a one-time creation. Its a platform. A framework engineered for the long-run. The iPhone didnt and doesnt need MMS or a better camera or a video camera or more storage or cut/copy/paste or GPS mapping or note syncing, because the framework was in place so that Apple could add these things, and much more, later either through software updates or through new hardware designs. The way to build a complex device with all the features you want is not to start by trying to build a device with all those features, but rather to start with the fundamentals, and then iterate and evolve.

Theres no better example than background tasks. The problem isnt that the iPhone OS isnt technically capable of pre-emptive multitasking, like the old Mac OS. Some of Apples own apps like MobileSafari, the phone app, the audio player, the new-to-3.0 Voice Memos already continue running when in the background. In fact, because its built on the same Unix underpinnings as Mac OS X, Apple had to do more work to create the upcoming push notification system than they would have had to do to just enable background processing for third-party apps. Scott Forstall said as much on stage during the iPhone OS 3.0 special event. The problem is not the software but the hardware the current CPU is too slow, there isnt enough RAM, and battery life is already stretched thin. Apple could do it now, but they couldnt do it well, so they will wait.

The idea that Apple has been withholding features out of arrogance or evil and that I should therefore be "mad" is just, sorry, stupid.

There's been a tone of irrational Apple hatred that has taken hold in these forums, as more and more PC users register, for whatever reason. Ironically, it's the most irrational of these that seem the most determined to regard anyone who doesn't want to join in with their Apple bashing as "fan boys" or "sheeple" or "posers" or whatever the slur du jour is.

Apple makes mistakes. It seems, at times, to crave purity over functionality in ways that bug me. I think, at the moment, that their computer hardware is generally overpriced, given the market. I wish they would make a midpriced desktop. I wish they would do more with Apple TV.

But I don't happen to think that Apple is fucking with me, just to be doing it. I don't think Apple is so besot with power and hubris that they do crazy, evil things and laugh.

I think they're a competitive company whose choices are driven by a singular vision, almost uniquely in the CE industry. Sometimes that yields groundbreaking new products, sometimes that leads to cul-de-sacs. But either way, I generally enjoy their products, which is why I spend time on an Apple enthusiast site.

And I have to say, I'm getting a little tired of the smug, mocking, utterly douche-baggy bullshit that seems to increase by the day from people who have no idea why anyone might prize what Apple does over other choices.

How about some of you go over to a PC site and try running Apple triumphalism they way you run your PC shit here? See how long you last.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
post #126 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

registration took all of 20 seconds.

Appleinsider is constantly shown in news links through google, as if it's an unbiased source of information. It's a joke plain and simple.

Your posts are so hostile that they are a joke. There are thousands of publications, print and otherwise. You have a choice to read, or not read, any one of them.

Generally, most intelligent people don't read what they don't like.

Insulting the site, and it's readers, doesn't help your credibility.

If you would like to have a real discussion, then fine. If you've been reading the site, as you CLAIM to have done, then you would see that members criticize it at times.

That's fine. I do it as well. Bur if you're just going to be mean spirited, then please do it elsewhere.

Quote:
Talk to any developer who's app has been denied by Apple.

Have fun being told what you can and can't do with something you "own."

As far as apps go, just a very small percentage have been denied. It turns out that Google is also denying apps. And I'd be willing to bet, so do all the others.
post #127 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maury Markowitz View Post

I feel compelled to say this again: there is an easy way that Apple could address at least some, if not the majority, of user needs for "multitasking" if they simply allowed developers to plug into the three backgrounding apps you already have, Phone, SMS and iPod.

If, for instance, Skype could plug the VOIP side of their application into Phone, then all of the features people want Skype to have instantly appear. Since Phone is always running, it would keep you logged into Skype and thereby allow incoming calls at any time. It would also mean you could exit your conversation to use other apps, not get kicked off when another call comes in, and lets you use a single interface for all your calling duties.

Likewise, Skype's chat side should be plugged into the SMS app, which is already on its way to being renamed "Messages". Pandora would plug into iPod.

Yes, this would not solve problems with things like loopd, but it would still solve a LOT of problems with practically zero cost.

Maury

You can't use Skype with the phone part of the device. It only works through Wifi.

Pandora wouldn't work because it needs the internet connection all the time it's on. The iPod doesn't use it.
post #128 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post


At what point does someone stop being an objective consumer? At what point did you guys stop demanding a better product from Apple? It's obvious people here don't care about an honest opinion if it in any way goes against Apple. Do you limit your narrowed one way thinking to Apple products or do you apply this arrogant view to other things? I mean, do you drive one type of car or buy one type of cereal?

A lot of limitations of the iphone are artificial, and put in place by Apple for bad reasons. It's a great phone, so much so in fact that when I got rid of it, I ended up buying an ipod touch, but doesn't it frustrate you guys that something like copy and paste only comes around when another company steps up to the plate and offers a serious contender? Face it, Apple could have given everyone copy and paste from day one, but they didn't. It wasn't until the Pre was just around the corner that Apple decided to "revolutionize" the industry with something that's been around since 1993. This is typical Apple behavior, and you fanboys allow it to happen by bending over backwards and accepting it with open cheeks.

Take my advice: Never stop seeing the BS Apple feeds you. When you become a consumer who buys things because you are told to buy them, you actually inhibit innovation.

Do you understand about product development? Apparently not.

Do you know that it took Win Mobile until version 3 to get cut&paste? I guess not. Do you know that Palm had years of development with its PDA's before it got cut&paste working? No?

The same is true of the others. It's not the same doing this for a very limited handheld, as opposed to a full fledged computer. So now Apple has what is being called by third parties one of, if not the best implementations of this.

You would rather Apple copy some of the crappy versions?
Just having a feature is better than doing it well?

I suppose you now have a Win Mobile phone.

You're so full of giving advice.
post #129 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow View Post

Apple already addressed the problems of Skype-like applications with iPhone OS 3.0. Those apps do not need to be running if they get a notification when they need it. There are applications that can't benefit from this. In many cases they do not need to run in the background as well, but receive notifications on location change, by a timer etc.

Nope, it doesn't solve this problem at all. In the case of Skype, it would, for instance, fail to keep you logged into Skype, which is the way Skype presence information works. It's also far too slow. If you're not logged into Skype, the startup time for that app is long enough that people would just hang up on you. Nor does it allow you to use your existing phone book and single UI, nor exit the UI to run another app while you continue to hold a conversation. Did you even read the list of advantages?

Your list of points about the Pre are off topic for this sub-thread. Again, Apple should allow anything that is phone-like to plug into Phone, anything that is chat-like to plug into Chat, and anything that is music-like to plug into iPod. This would cover at least 90% of the complaints, dramatically improve the system functionality as a whole, and provide a single well-understood UI for new apps as they come along. It's win-win-win.

Maury
post #130 of 213
Guys, he is not interested in a proper discussion. I think we're wasting our time.
post #131 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

I do have the fullest understanding of what a better product is, and I never said you are stupid and I am smart. It speaks volumes that you read my statements this way. Someone with an opinion different from yours must be attacking you right? That's interesting...

The fact that their are hundreds of models of phones all with different functions and advantages I would would argue that there is no such thing as the truly best product.

What gives Chronster the fullest understanding of a better product? Outside of a healthy dose of hubris.

You have used a lot of pejorative terms to describe the people on this web list. Terms that clearly question our ability to reason and think critically.


Quote:
Well, as a software developer, I must say this is a pretty funny statement.

People like to use self proclaimed titles, it doesn't mean much.

Quote:
Again, excuses excuses excuses. The iphone is a smart phone is it not? What kind of smart phone can't do copy and paste? It's a simple function that should have been implemented from day one. I have no doubt in my mind that Apple had the code, but used this as just one of those "future enhancements" they implement to keep people from switching to another phone just at the right moment (Pre is right around the corner.)

This type of statement brings your software developer credentials into question. No mobile phone platform started from version 1 with all of the features it currently has. None of them. They all added features over a number of years.

Again you leave out the fact that computers and other phones use cursor pointers and stylus, none of them used the finger for copy and paste. The finger intorduces a different challenge for implementing copy and paste.

Seems you want to bury your head in the sand and ignore this in favor of your complaints about Apple. But then you are a software developer.

Quote:
Hey let me ask you this, when tegra comes out, you think Apple will allow video recording? Hmm, maybe you guys can line up around the block then to get something your phone is already capable of.

There's no evidence that most people care about video recording, I would imagine its most popular for those under 20.


Quote:
Tell that to the reviewers.

The reviewers who watched Palm representatives demonstrate the Pre, but were never able to touch it?


Quote:
Wake up! You're proving my point and you don't even see it. Why do you think so many people jailbreak their iphones? They shouldn't have to do that!

Seems you are the one who is not interested in being objective. Its obvious you are more interested in complaining about Apple using unfounded conjecture with no information to support your conclusions.
post #132 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maury Markowitz View Post

Apple should allow anything that is phone-like to plug into Phone, anything that is chat-like to plug into Chat, and anything that is music-like to plug into iPod [...] dramatically improve the system functionality as a whole, and provide a single well-understood UI for new apps as they come along.

It's amazing that someone can actually believe that.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #133 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post


At what point does someone stop being an objective consumer?

Chronster,

That is one of the rudest posts I have seen in quite a while.

We are all consumers and all want something that is great for our personal needs. We are all experts in our personal requirements.

Every device is a bunch of compromises. Size battery life, CPU power, GPU power. Open-ness and so on all influence each other. You can't have one thing without reducing another.

So you design a device, and take a bunch of hard engineering decisions and hard design decisions. And the market let's you know your score out of ten.

Palm has made some interesting choices. To basically ship a device with a cool web browser - and then deliver all functionality through web-apps which run under that browser. It is a brilliant idea. But it's a compromise. We will see how well it works out.

Apple made a ton of decisions that are utterly different to the decisions of Nokia, Microsoft and Palm. The mobile space was well established before Apple appeared, and the standard way of doing things was nailed-down. Apple took a lot of decisions which went at 90 degrees to the received wisdom.

Apple said, in the clearest possible way, we don't agree X is important, we think Y is much more important. Clearly that upset some folks. Especially those who are invested in X.

Are these good design decision or bad design decisions?

Depends on the user.

But whatever Apple did right or wrong. It did not harm the sales of the device. Consumers don't run out of the Apple Store screaming, "This is bullshit, this thing does not multi-task". Instead the iPhone sells pretty good numbers. So well in fact that other companies feel the need to produce more iPhone-like devices.

And looking at the web market share, iPhone users go off and start using it as a mobile internet device, in a way that none of its predecessors ever got used.

Sure, iPhone is a bag of compromises. Just like the Pre, or WinMo or Symbian is.
But to make out that the iPhone is full of artificial shortcomings and dumb compromises and that consumers are blinded by the glowing white logo, is just plain rude.

WinMo has had cut and paste forever. Anyone want a WinMo phone?

C.
post #134 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

You can't use Skype with the phone part of the device. It only works through Wifi.

Excellent. And because its always running, being part of Phone, the presence portion of the Skype stack is running and would be able to determine whether or not it has Wi-Fi and change your Skype status. You might wish it to show you as Busy, or perhaps another status that shows you available for Chat only. Better yet, when you clicked Dial inside Phone, the existing "Call" icon would remain lit, but the menu that appears when you held the button down would have the "Skype to Skype" and "SkypeOut" options dimmed out with a little icon that says "needs Wi-Fi". As soon as you entered a Wi-Fi area and connected, Skype's status would update to allow people to call you on Skype directly, as well as making the buttons inside Phone work so I could just use SkypeOut from the Call button. Best of all, there would be a preference that allowed me to say that if I am connected to Wi-Fi, or a particular set of Wi-Fi's, that all outbound Calls should default to Skype.

So now your iPhone allows people to get to you in a myriad of new low-cost paths, without you having to learn anything at all. Everything you know about making a phone call using Phone continues to work perfectly. And we could also have plugins for GChat, iChat, MSN, SIP and WMA. The carriers would LOVE to have WMA on the iPhone. And all of this would work without need for background apps, save those that already exists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Pandora wouldn't work because it needs the internet connection all the time it's on. The iPod doesn't use it.

I have no idea what your point is here. What does this have to do with it plugging into the iPod app on my iPhone?

Maury
post #135 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maury Markowitz View Post

Excellent. And because its always running, being part of Phone, the presence portion of the Skype stack is running and would be able to determine whether or not it has Wi-Fi and change your Skype status. You might wish it to show you as Busy, or perhaps another status that shows you available for Chat only. Better yet, when you clicked Dial inside Phone, the existing "Call" icon would remain lit, but the menu that appears when you held the button down would have the "Skype to Skype" and "SkypeOut" options dimmed out with a little icon that says "needs Wi-Fi". As soon as you entered a Wi-Fi area and connected, Skype's status would update to allow people to call you on Skype directly, as well as making the buttons inside Phone work so I could just use SkypeOut from the Call button. Best of all, there would be a preference that allowed me to say that if I am connected to Wi-Fi, or a particular set of Wi-Fi's, that all outbound Calls should default to Skype.

So now your iPhone allows people to get to you in a myriad of new low-cost paths, without you having to learn anything at all. Everything you know about making a phone call using Phone continues to work perfectly. And we could also have plugins for GChat, iChat, MSN, SIP and WMA. The carriers would LOVE to have WMA on the iPhone. And all of this would work without need for background apps, save those that already exists.


I have no idea what your point is here. What does this have to do with it plugging into the iPod app on my iPhone?

Maury

The lack of rationale thought in that post is so incredibly perplexing. Maury can't actually be believing the words he is writing. There are so many glaring inaccuracies that I wouldn't even know where to being. Simply astounding!
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #136 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

It's amazing that someone can actually believe that.

That's funny because I'm suffering from the same feeling right now. Your content-free post doesn't say exactly why you came to this conclusion, so let's explore this:

1) do you like having your conversations cut off when someone else calls you on GSM?

2) perhaps you enjoy having to set up the same contacts list in several different apps?

3) you just think its a good idea to pay more for phone calls?

Really, if you don't think having a single app handle all of your related media, perhaps you could explain Google Phone, or Adium? Or perhaps you just didn't understand the comment?

Maury
post #137 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

The fact that their are hundreds of models of phones all with different functions and advantages I would would argue that there is no such thing as the truly best product.

What an insightful and genius comment. Did you come up with that all on your own?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

What gives Chronster the fullest understanding of a better product? Outside of a healthy dose of hubris.

Common sense actually. I didn't accept the fact that Apple said the iphone couldn't do something (when clearly it could) so I got rid of it. I could sit down with any phone and tell you how to make it better, it's just common sense. Ironic you tell anyone they have a "healthy dose of hubris" just because they can think this way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

You have used a lot of pejorative terms to describe the people on this web list. Terms that clearly question our ability to reason and think critically.

Ah, but I never said you were stupid and I was smart. Now you're just trying to pick a personal fight with me and going off subject.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

People like to use self proclaimed titles, it doesn't mean much.

Depends on the subject matter. I don't go to the grocery store and say "As a SOFTWARE DEVELOPAAAA, I shal take the smoked turkey breast!" When someone tells me I don't know what I'm talking about with a subject such as this, I tend to throw that out there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

This type of statement brings your software developer credentials into question. No mobile phone platform started from version 1 with all of the features it currently has. None of them. They all added features over a number of years.

Again you leave out the fact that computers and other phones use cursor pointers and stylus, none of them used the finger for copy and paste. The finger intorduces a different challenge for implementing copy and paste.

Newton MessagePad had copy and paste back in 1993, and you're telling me the geniuses at Apple couldn't come up with a solution? Jeesh
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Seems you want to bury your head in the sand and ignore this in favor of your complaints about Apple. But then you are a software developer.

So my few complaints about Apple overshadow the fact that I've already owned an iphone, and liked it enough that I bought an ipod touch after getting rid of it? Wow man. Just wow. I didn't simply accept the devices short comings as "the way it is" which is why I got a Touch Pro. But then, I am a software developer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

There's no evidence that most people care about video recording, I would imagine its most popular for those under 20.

Hmmm yeah you're right. It's not documented anywhere that video recording is cared about by anyone in the demographic of ages 20 and above, therefore, it must not be something you should care about. Amazing how easily you can be programmed. If there was evidence that most people did care about sticking a vibrating iphone up their ass, and it was most popular for those above 20, would you fight for lube to be included with your purchase of an iphone?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

The reviewers who watched Palm representatives demonstrate the Pre, but were never able to touch it?

Really? You haven't seen all the reviews people posted where they got to play with the phone at CES? How could you know anything about it if you refuse to read what first hand experiences are like? Christ man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Seems you are the one who is not interested in being objective. Its obvious you are more interested in complaining about Apple using unfounded conjecture with no information to support your conclusions.

Seems I'm the ONLY one who's interested in being objective. I haven't been completely illogical in my argument, you just simply don't agree so suddenly I'm some idiot ranting for no reason. I MEAN ITS NOT LIKE I OWNED THE DAMN THING RIGHT!? LOL
post #138 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maury Markowitz View Post

That's funny because I'm suffering from the same feeling right now. Your content-free post doesn't say exactly why you came to this conclusion, so let's explore this:

1) do you like having your conversations cut off when someone else calls you on GSM?

2) perhaps you enjoy having to set up the same contacts list in several different apps?

3) you just think its a good idea to pay more for phone calls?

Really, if you don't think having a single app handle all of your related media, perhaps you could explain Google Phone, or Adium? Or perhaps you just didn't understand the comment?

Maury

1) You are much more likely to have your conversation dropped or paused form a lack of priority-based QoS voice routing with VoIP on a handheld trying to traverse different cellular data network and open and closed WiFi hotspots while traveling.

2) I don't enjoy it, which is why I have an iPhone and a MobileMe acccount. My Skype and fringe apps have a contact list that is downloaded and maintained on the Skype server, but Apple has created an API that allows for the access to the Contacts DB on the iPhone.

But you don't want that, you want any and all VoIP app to hijack the phone app and integrate with it, yet you somehow think this will make the app more stable. That is what befuddles me.

3) How does this make any sense to ask? No ones wants to pay more for a phone call of the same quality and reliability, but that isn't what you are proposing. You are proposing that a VoIP app takes over my iPhone's phone app. This VoIP app will then dicate what kind of call I should be making.

So if it sees a Linksys WiFi hotspot, which I connected to at some point and which was open, but this one has blocked certain MAC addresses from getting access or has a low bandwidth or congested network so the call I was on essentially stops as I am traveling down the road. The point of a phone is to have a phone to use when you need it. VoIP is great for saving a few dimes, specially for international calls, but they aren't a good replacement to auto-detect the best network on a mobile.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #139 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Chronster,

That is one of the rudest posts I have seen in quite a while.

We are all consumers and all want something that is great for our personal needs. We are all experts in our personal requirements.

Every device is a bunch of compromises. Size battery life, CPU power, GPU power. Open-ness and so on all influence each other. You can't have one thing without reducing another.

So you design a device, and take a bunch of hard engineering decisions and hard design decisions. And the market let's you know your score out of ten.

Palm has made some interesting choices. To basically ship a device with a cool web browser - and then deliver all functionality through web-apps which run under that browser. It is a brilliant idea. But it's a compromise. We will see how well it works out.

Apple made a ton of decisions that are utterly different to the decisions of Nokia, Microsoft and Palm. The mobile space was well established before Apple appeared, and the standard way of doing things was nailed-down. Apple took a lot of decisions which went at 90 degrees to the received wisdom.

Apple said, in the clearest possible way, we don't agree X is important, we think Y is much more important. Clearly that upset some folks. Especially those who are invested in X.

Are these good design decision or bad design decisions?

Depends on the user.

But whatever Apple did right or wrong. It did not harm the sales of the device. Consumers don't run out of the Apple Store screaming, "This is bullshit, this thing does not multi-task". Instead the iPhone sells pretty good numbers. So well in fact that other companies feel the need to produce more iPhone-like devices.

And looking at the web market share, iPhone users go off and start using it as a mobile internet device, in a way that none of its predecessors ever got used.

Sure, iPhone is a bag of compromises. Just like the Pre, or WinMo or Symbian is.
But to make out that the iPhone is full of artificial shortcomings and dumb compromises and that consumers are blinded by the glowing white logo, is just plain rude.

WinMo has had cut and paste forever. Anyone want a WinMo phone?

C.

I actually must say this is the first response I've gotten that I respect.
post #140 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

I actually must say this is the first response I've gotten that I respect.

Sounds like your ideal device would be a more conventional smartphone with a media player.

Which is perfectly fine.

Me personally, I have never had the urge to edit a document on my phone. I got a netbook for that stuff.

And although I am pleased to finally to have cut-and-paste. I have to admit that after two weeks - I have only found use for it on one occasion.

C.
post #141 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maury Markowitz View Post

Excellent. And because its always running, being part of Phone, the presence portion of the Skype stack is running and would be able to determine whether or not it has Wi-Fi and change your Skype status. You might wish it to show you as Busy, or perhaps another status that shows you available for Chat only. Better yet, when you clicked Dial inside Phone, the existing "Call" icon would remain lit, but the menu that appears when you held the button down would have the "Skype to Skype" and "SkypeOut" options dimmed out with a little icon that says "needs Wi-Fi". As soon as you entered a Wi-Fi area and connected, Skype's status would update to allow people to call you on Skype directly, as well as making the buttons inside Phone work so I could just use SkypeOut from the Call button. Best of all, there would be a preference that allowed me to say that if I am connected to Wi-Fi, or a particular set of Wi-Fi's, that all outbound Calls should default to Skype.

So now your iPhone allows people to get to you in a myriad of new low-cost paths, without you having to learn anything at all. Everything you know about making a phone call using Phone continues to work perfectly. And we could also have plugins for GChat, iChat, MSN, SIP and WMA. The carriers would LOVE to have WMA on the iPhone. And all of this would work without need for background apps, save those that already exists.

I don't see the point to all this.

When you come into the range of a USABLE WiFi network, not something that common even in the middle of NYC, your phone can tell you. You can choose to join or not. Skype is only useful when IN that network. I don't see its usefulness for the 99% time it isn't.

Quote:
I have no idea what your point is here. What does this have to do with it plugging into the iPod app on my iPhone?

Maury

Just as I have no idea what your point is for it to use the iPod program.
post #142 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I wouldn't even know where to being.

Apparently, given the content-free posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

There are so many glaring inaccuracies that

Yet you prove incapable, over two posts, of naming even one. Come on, if they're as obvious and perplexing as you claim, surely it wouldn't be too much for you to post ONE of them, right? Or are you just trolling?

Maury
post #143 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

Common sense actually. I didn't accept the fact that Apple said the iphone couldn't do something (when clearly it could) so I got rid of it. I could sit down with any phone and tell you how to make it better, it's just common sense. Ironic you tell anyone they have a "healthy dose of hubris" just because they can think this way.

If making a good phone was common sense, why couldn't any just do it? Why are Motorola, Sony/Ericsson, and Palm all nearly out of the phone business?


Quote:
Newton MessagePad had copy and paste back in 1993, and you're telling me the geniuses at Apple couldn't come up with a solution? Jeesh

The Newton used a stylus. I keep trying to explain that finger touch screens introduced new problems.


Quote:
Hmmm yeah you're right. It's not documented anywhere that video recording is cared about by anyone in the demographic of ages 20 and above, therefore, it must not be something you should care about. Amazing how easily you can be programmed. If there was evidence that most people did care about sticking a vibrating iphone up their ass, and it was most popular for those above 20, would you fight for lube to be included with your purchase of an iphone?

You can easily look at sales numbers and usage surveys. Most people don't buy phones based on their video recording capability, its not a priority. There have been many surveys that ask the most used features on phones and video recording is always near the bottom or doesn't show up at all.

Quote:
Really? You haven't seen all the reviews people posted where they got to play with the phone at CES? How could you know anything about it if you refuse to read what first hand experiences are like? Christ man.

I saw videos where Palm representatives were demonstrating the Pre, but no one outside of Palm was able to touch it.

"Sprint, Palm, what is the deal with not being able to hold and use the Pre with my own two hands? At CES, GSMA 2009, and now CTIA, the companies have required that a Palm or Sprint representative have at least one hand on the smartphone at all times even when we're just trying to take pictures, and we're not allowed to touch certain functionalities, and I just don't get it. What's the purpose? Who is it benefiting?"

Really? I can't touch the Palm Pre? Really!?!


Quote:
Seems I'm the ONLY one who's interested in being objective. I haven't been completely illogical in my argument, you just simply don't agree so suddenly I'm some idiot ranting for no reason. I MEAN ITS NOT LIKE I OWNED THE DAMN THING RIGHT!? LOL

You come on the list calling us closed minded, blind, Apple fans. That doesn't sound objective at all.

You accuse Apple of leaving off features that every other phone has had with no understanding, context, or history of product development. You refuse to understand why Apple left those features off, or the fact that other phones did not have similar features when they were first launched.

You make sweeping comparisons of the iPhone to the Pre. A product that is in essence still vaporware and not available to anyone.
post #144 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Skype is only useful when IN that network.

Correct, and Phone would automatically fail over to GSM when it did not.

Really, has not one person here used a phone that supports Wi-Fi calling? Like any number of Nokia models? If you are connected to Wi-Fi it calls out using the internet. If you are not, it calls out over GSM. If you are connected to Wi-Fi you can receive inbound calls over the internet. If you aren't, you can't. It's all completely invisible, works no matter where you are in the world, and saves you lots of money. And if you do get a Skype-to-Skype call, the voice quality is better to boot.

Maury
post #145 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

If making a good phone was common sense, why couldn't any just do it? Why are Motorola, Sony/Ericsson, and Palm all nearly out of the phone business?

So it's really hard for you to sit down with a phone and find things you don't like about it? That's all I'm saying. Common sense. For fucks sake man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

The Newton used a stylus. I keep trying to explain that finger touch screens introduced new problems.

Stop making excuses for them. They called the phone a smart phone but copy and paste is an essential feature in document editing. It's something that could have been done long ago, and is just now being released in order to stay competitive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

You can easily look at sales numbers and usage surveys. Most people don't buy phones based on their video recording capability, its not a priority. There have been many surveys that ask the most used features on phones and video recording is always near the bottom or doesn't show up at all.

I didn't buy the touch pro because it can act as a wifi router, but it can. It's something the phone is capable of, that it does, that I've found joy in. Recording video with the iphone would be the same type of feature for many people, but as I said before, this is a feature they will inevitably roll out later on down the line to keep things competitive. It's an artificial limitation, is it not?


Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I saw videos where Palm representatives were demonstrating the Pre, but no one outside of Palm was able to touch it.

"Sprint, Palm, what is the deal with not being able to hold and use the Pre with my own two hands? At CES, GSMA 2009, and now CTIA, the companies have required that a Palm or Sprint representative have at least one hand on the smartphone at all times even when we're just trying to take pictures, and we're not allowed to touch certain functionalities, and I just don't get it. What's the purpose? Who is it benefiting?"

Really? I can't touch the Palm Pre? Really!?!

I've seen the opposite at gizmodo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

You come on the list calling us closed minded, blind, Apple fans. That doesn't sound objective at all.

Making excuses for a company's greed is closed minded, blind, and screams Apple fanboism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

You accuse Apple of leaving off features that every other phone has had with no understanding, context, or history of product development. You refuse to understand why Apple left those features off, or the fact that other phones did not have similar features when they were first launched.

I accuse Apple of artificial limitations yes, but I do have a very good understanding why. It's YOU who refuses to understand why Apple kept those features off. Sure, other phones didn't have these features when they were launched, TEN YEARS AGO. You think Apple is that far behind everyone? No. It's so ironic you use other phones' development life cycles as examples when here comes the Pre, doing exactly what I'm talking about RIGHT OUT OF THE GATE. The Pre will have it right away, just another small feature that could lure iphone users to it, which is why apple is suddenly allowing copy and paste!


Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

You make sweeping comparisons of the iPhone to the Pre. A product that is in essence still vaporware and not available to anyone.

Trust me, when someone says the Pre is better, I say the same thing, it's not available to anyone so it's impossible to say, but at the same time I say the same thing to you iphone peeps who say the opposite. Nobody truly knows which is better, and I don't think comparing who sells more after the debut is a good way of comparing that either. When the iphone came out, everyone went gaga for it and bought one. The Pre's launch won't be as impressive in terms of numbers simply because the iphone was bought up by so many.

Palm seems to be doing things the right way but I could be wrong. Either way, Apple is lifting the vale (so to speak) on some artificial features in an effort to compete with the Pre. It's just business, nothing more.
post #146 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

1) You are much more likely to have your conversation dropped or paused form a lack of priority-based QoS voice routing with VoIP on a handheld trying to traverse different cellular data network and open and closed WiFi hotspots while traveling.

Well for one, you completely missed the point I was making. The point I was making, which has been a constant complaint among the iPhone customer base, is that Phone will interrupt and disconnect a Skype call. That's because Phone will interrupt and stop any application that does not get out of the way within 5 seconds of the call coming in. If VOIP apps worked through the Phone app, this would no longer be a problem.

But to address this new point, the opposite is also true. I have had numerous calls dropped in my house when using CDMA, less using GSM, and zero on Skype. Skype is an excellent replacement for a landline more than it is a replacement for a cell phone. Different needs, different capabilities. If the iPhone supported both cleanly, as many other phones do, its utility would improve tremendously.

As I noted earlier, numerous carriers already offer a solution exactly like using handsets that support it. Examples include AT&T's "Unstrung" and Fido's "UNO". These use UMA as the data haul, but are technically identical to what I am proposing here. In other cases, like the Nokia 60 series, they use SIP as the data haul, and again, it remains otherwise identical.

So lots of other companies are already doing this perfectly fine. But apparently in this case you think it's a ridiculous concept. Perhaps you believe Apple's programmer's simple aren't as good as Nokia's, but I believe the opposite is the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

But you don't want that, you want any and all VoIP app to hijack the phone app and integrate with it, yet you somehow think this will make the app more stable. That is what befuddles me.

I said nothing of the sort. I said it would make the user experience better, not the stability. I believe it will have absolutely no effect whatsoever on stability, especially if Apple programmers are as good as I suspect.

As an example, you wouldn't have to "integrate" with the Contacts, you would actually use contacts. That would improve the user experience. Having the Phone app stop cutting you off in the middle of a Skype call would also improve the user experience. As would being able to make an outbound call on the carrier of my choice with the press of a button. And remaining logged in for inbound calls even when the Skype app isn't running, that would be downright fantastic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

You are proposing that a VoIP app takes over my iPhone's phone app. This VoIP app will then dicate what kind of call I should be making.

I said nothing of the sort. I said you choose the type of call you should be making.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

So if it sees a Linksys WiFi hotspot... [rest of silly example removed].

Apple's system for selecting hot-spots is brain-dead, I agree. I hear they are improving it in 3.0.

However, as you can see in the posts above, I clearly proposed having a list of hot-spots that you would use to default to having your VOIP app "on". On other hotspots the default behavior would be to not use VOIP, and use GSM instead. In any case, the user could easily override their defaults, which they selected, simply by holding down the Call button and selecting which carrier to use.

There are lots of phones on the market that do this. AT&T sells a bunch. They all work perfectly. I'm sure an Apple version would work even better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

The point of a phone is to have a phone to use when you need it. VoIP is great for saving a few dimes, specially for international calls, but they aren't a good replacement to auto-detect the best network on a mobile.

Skype is the #1 long distance exchange in the world. Apparently there are some people that disagree with your assessment of it's abilities. So do all the carriers that sell UMA handsets.

Sorry, it's pretty clear to me that your simply unfamiliar with the way these products work. Perhaps you would take the time to go read the wikipedia article on UMA and SIP and then come back with a more informed opinion.

Maury
post #147 of 213
Skype call quality has never been known for high quality.

We could find dozens of links about this. Let's see what happens now:

http://mashable.com/2009/02/03/skype-version-4/
post #148 of 213
Can anyone explain to me why Apple would "deliberately" withhold a feature like copy and paste, and only add it "to remain competitive"?

Because they're lazy? Because they enjoy making their buyers look like fools? Because they're crazy?

Really, what's the motivation being ascribed to Apple here, beyond reflexive internet douch-baggery?
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
post #149 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Can anyone explain to me why Apple would "deliberately" withhold a feature like copy and paste, and only add it "to remain competitive"?

Because they're lazy? Because they enjoy making their buyers look like fools? Because they're crazy?

Really, what's the motivation being ascribed to Apple here, beyond reflexive internet douch-baggery?

There will always be people who like to complain about something. They love conspiracy theories, because it makes them feel better when things don't go their way.

If they want something and it isn't available, there must be some nefarious reason.
post #150 of 213
Yeah that's what it is guys. It's douche baggery. I mean, it's not like your phones can record video right? There's no such thing as artificial limitations!

Think of it this way, I invent a phone that does everything everyone ever wanted, I mean EVERYTHING. Would people buy new versions down the line? No, the phone they have has everything they want already.

Apple dangles bits and pieces in front of you a little at a time like a dirt farmer dangling a carrot in front of a mule.

"Well, I WAS going to get the Pre, but Apple is finally giving me these new features. I guess I'll stay AND RENEW MY TWO YEAR CONTRACT."

It isn't coincidence that these features come out just as a lot of user's two year contracts are coming to an end? LOL.
post #151 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

Yeah that's what it is guys. It's douche baggery. I mean, it's not like your phones can record video right? There's no such thing as artificial limitations!

Think of it this way, I invent a phone that does everything everyone ever wanted, I mean EVERYTHING. Would people buy new versions down the line? No, the phone they have has everything they want already.

Apple dangles bits and pieces in front of you a little at a time like a dirt farmer dangling a carrot in front of a mule.

"Well, I WAS going to get the Pre, but Apple is finally giving me these new features. I guess I'll stay AND RENEW MY TWO YEAR CONTRACT."

It isn't coincidence that these features come out just as a lot of user's two year contracts are coming to an end? LOL.

You've had it explained to you, in detail, what kind of software development and what kind of timeframe for same is involved in developing new features, and how the said timeframe pretty much precludes Apple including such features as a response to the Pre. But you persist in your little fantasy, despite that fact that it makes no rational sense. So, douchebaggery? Looks that way to me.

Please read the John Gruber article I linked to, and try to wrap your head around the idea that Apple is being very conservative in building the foundations of a platform that they expect to deploy across multiple devices for years to come.

A carefully designed platform-- the SDK, the API, the UI, the frameworks-- is what permits adding features that work well down the line. Apple very obviously focused on getting the fundamentals right, and expects it to pay off going forward. I expect they're right.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
post #152 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

So it's really hard for you to sit down with a phone and find things you don't like about it? That's all I'm saying. Common sense. For fucks sake man.

That has nothing to do with common sense, that's a subjective choice.


Quote:
Stop making excuses for them. They called the phone a smart phone but copy and paste is an essential feature in document editing. It's something that could have been done long ago, and is just now being released in order to stay competitive.

I've never seen an official definition for a smartphone.

It's true Apple could have chosen to implement copy and paste sooner. I believe and many others believe Apple waited until they felt they had the proper implementation. You are free to believe Apple witheld it simply to annoy people. But it's an interesting conclusion coming from a supposedly unbiased perspective.

Quote:
Making excuses for a company's greed is closed minded, blind, and screams Apple fanboism.

Apple is giving the OS updates to all iPhone users, where is the greed?


Quote:
I accuse Apple of artificial limitations yes, but I do have a very good understanding why. It's YOU who refuses to understand why Apple kept those features off. Sure, other phones didn't have these features when they were launched, TEN YEARS AGO. You think Apple is that far behind everyone? No. It's so ironic you use other phones' development life cycles as examples when here comes the Pre, doing exactly what I'm talking about RIGHT OUT OF THE GATE. The Pre will have it right away, just another small feature that could lure iphone users to it, which is why apple is suddenly allowing copy and paste!

For the person whose true intent is to be objective, their would be room to see Apple's choices as compromises and taking time to properly develop a new platform.

The iPhone is new for Apple. As a software developer you should know that Apple has develop it's own platform. Apple cannot copy what MS, RIM, or Nokia has done. Yes Apple is starting from scratch with it's own mobile platform, it doesn't matter what someone else has done.

We still have to wait and see how well the Pre works. Simply because a feature is announced does not automatically mean it works well or is all that useful.

Quote:
Palm seems to be doing things the right way but I could be wrong. Either way, Apple is lifting the vale (so to speak) on some artificial features in an effort to compete with the Pre. It's just business, nothing more.

So your thinking is that Apple is implementing features that it obviously began developing months ago before anyone outside of Palm knew the Pre existed. To explicitly compete with the a phone that is not yet on the market.

Yeah...that sounds logical.
post #153 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

Think of it this way, I invent a phone that does everything everyone ever wanted, I mean EVERYTHING. Would people buy new versions down the line? No, the phone they have has everything they want already.

Who has ever invented a phone like that? And if they did what guarantee is there that it would work well and that people would actually buy it?


Quote:
"Well, I WAS going to get the Pre, but Apple is finally giving me these new features. I guess I'll stay AND RENEW MY TWO YEAR CONTRACT."

I doubt they need for you to go out of your way and inconvenience yourself to do them any favors.

Quote:
It isn't coincidence that these features come out just as a lot of user's two year contracts are coming to an end? LOL.

The Pre was announced in the second week in January, the iPhone OS 3.0 was announced March 17th. You think Apple suddenly developed and added new features in that two month gap? Software developer.........
post #154 of 213
wow everything you just said in those two posts was completely mindless. You should be ashamed of yourself.

here's an idea I want you to dwell on for a second: People's 2 year contracts are going to start expiring. Apple knew if there was a contender, the release date would be chosen for around this time. They PLANNED the 3.0 update around this time on purpose. To keep people from leaving to another phone. Suddenly the phone can do all these things the customers have been demanding for the past 2 years?

And I use the Pre as an example because it's the contender that stepped up. Apple might not have known who was going to step up so boldly, but they knew someone would, and it's obvious it's got them scared shitless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I doubt they need for you to go out of your way and inconvenience yourself to do them any favors.

Oh wow LOL. You thought I was talking about little ol me? And not thousands upon thousands of customers who's 2 year contracts are expiring? Too funny.

I'm done with this discussion. As I stated before, it's just a bunch of arrogant narrow viewed fanboys making excuses for their master. Hilarious
post #155 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

While third-party apps are being trumpeted as the iPhone's strength

Apple should not allow third parties to create native iPhone applications. Nobody cares about third party iPhone applications. Web apps are really SWEET.
post #156 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maury Markowitz View Post

Well for one, you completely missed the point I was making. The point I was making, which has been a constant complaint among the iPhone customer base, is that Phone will interrupt and disconnect a Skype call. That's because Phone will interrupt and stop any application that does not get out of the way within 5 seconds of the call coming in.
Maury

Why the obsession with Skype?

I find them to be more expensive than my other VOIP provider (which the Skype App won't let me use) for International calls to phones and more expensive than my phone provider for local calls (any phone in Australia).

I let my wife use Skype on my iPhone so she can make Skype to Skype calls to her relatives, if a call comes in for me, her call is interrupted and she can resume it later.

This is a good thing.

Since I found out that I can hotswap SIM's on my officially unlocked iPhone I no longer carry my N82 (which had all those useless [to me] features you keep whining about), instead I carry my other SIM and a paperclip in my wallet.

Don't presume that you know people's needs better than they themselves do.
A problem occurred with this webpage so it was reloaded.A problem occurred with this webpage so it was reloaded.A problem occurred with this webpage so it was reloaded.A problem occurred with this...
Reply
A problem occurred with this webpage so it was reloaded.A problem occurred with this webpage so it was reloaded.A problem occurred with this webpage so it was reloaded.A problem occurred with this...
Reply
post #157 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

wow everything you just said in those two posts was completely mindless. You should be ashamed of yourself.

here's an idea I want you to dwell on for a second: People's 2 year contracts are going to start expiring. Apple knew if there was a contender, the release date would be chosen for around this time. They PLANNED the 3.0 update around this time on purpose. To keep people from leaving to another phone. Suddenly the phone can do all these things the customers have been demanding for the past 2 years?

And I use the Pre as an example because it's the contender that stepped up. Apple might not have known who was going to step up so boldly, but they knew someone would, and it's obvious it's got them scared shitless.


Oh wow LOL. You thought I was talking about little ol me? And not thousands upon thousands of customers who's 2 year contracts are expiring? Too funny.

I'm done with this discussion. As I stated before, it's just a bunch of arrogant narrow viewed fanboys making excuses for their master. Hilarious

Oh noes.

Apple is working to improve the iPhone, and offering new models timed to increase sales and user retention. The conniving bastards! Decent companies make things with every possible feature and never update it, or time such updates to negatively impact sales, if possible.

And making the iPhone OS3 a free upgrade to all iPhone owners? What balls! Because....... well, I'm not sure how that fits my theory, but being Apple, it's got to be some kind of bullshit.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
post #158 of 213
For this to make logical sense means. Two years ago when Apple launched the original iPhone in June, which subsequently set new iPhone launches in June. This means Apple purposefully set new iPhone launches in June because they knew the iPhone was going to dominate the smartphone market and that two years later someone would successfully launch a competing phone in June. So in 2007 Apple knew that by summer 2009 they would have to add copy/cut/paste, MMS, and tethering to head off the contender to the throne the iPhone had yet to hold.

That some serious business clairvoyance. You give Apple a lot more credit than I do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

here's an idea I want you to dwell on for a second: People's 2 year contracts are going to start expiring. Apple knew if there was a contender, the release date would be chosen for around this time. They PLANNED the 3.0 update around this time on purpose. To keep people from leaving to another phone. Suddenly the phone can do all these things the customers have been demanding for the past 2 years?
post #159 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maury Markowitz View Post

Sorry, it's pretty clear to me that your simply unfamiliar with the way these products work. Perhaps you would take the time to go read the wikipedia article on UMA and SIP and then come back with a more informed opinion.

I had a Cisco CCIE Voice cert and have had a Skype In number for nearly 3 years now, so I think I may a little bit of knowledge and experience about the tech.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #160 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

For this to make logical sense means. Two years ago when Apple launched the original iPhone in June, which subsequently set new iPhone launches in June. This means Apple purposefully set new iPhone launches in June because they knew the iPhone was going to dominate the smartphone market and that two years later someone would successfully launch a competing phone in June. So in 2007 Apple knew that by summer 2009 they would have to add copy/cut/paste, MMS, and tethering to head off the contender to the throne the iPhone had yet to hold.

That some serious business clairvoyance. You give Apple a lot more credit than I do.

Yes exactly! You understand what I'm saying. A company being ran with people as smart as those at Apple don't release a phone as awesome as the iphone without knowing what kind of impact it would have (in terms of other companies waking up and trying to contend with BETTER products.) There was nothing as cool as the iphone when it came out. They got a TON of 2 year sign up's for AT&T. In 2 years, a company can make a decent phone to contend with them. I mean, they pushed out the samsung instinct in like 6 weeks, and even though it was a big piece of junk for most, it still sold pretty good for Sprint (it really is a piece of shit though, and I laugh whenever anyone tries to say it's an iphone killer.)

I don't think the guys at Apple are so dumb that they thought they wouldn't have something to contend with around this time. I mean, it was one thing when the Instinct came out, but now the Pre is coming out just as customers will be considering leaving AT&T.

Even though you don't think video recording is important, it's still something the iphone is capable of, and something Apple should give their customers (even if it's just the kids demanding it.) It's an artificial limitation.

All I'm saying is, they should have given you guys things like mms, tethering, and copy and paste as soon as they were ready (which I think was long ago!) And I think it's REALLY gay for people to make excuses for them.

What I like most about the iphone and Apple is how it made other companies work harder. You guys like your iphones, you like Apple, I don't, thanks for the discussion
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: iPhone
AppleInsider › Forums › Mobile › iPhone › New Palm Pre apps underscore Apple's iPhone limitations