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Microsoft's latest ad attacks Mac aesthetics, computing power - Page 11

post #401 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by hillstones View Post

Don't you mean NextStep?

Well, technically, OpenStep.

Coming from a jack-of-all-trades experience in all things computing, I'd like to throw my two cents in with the whole Microsoft advertising campaign. I think there's a little bit of "everyone is right, and everyone is wrong" involved here. Let's leave the more obvious things aside -- the malware, viruses, etc., simply because those are external forces. Let's talk about inherent traits of both the Mac and Windows approach to user experience.

I've used a huge variety of systems over my time... CP/M, Apple ][ DOS, MS-DOS, Windows/286, Windows 3.xx, OS/2 2.0 - OS/2 4.0, Linux/GNOME, Linux/KDE, Linux/Enlightenment, Linux with no X server installed... Solaris, Windows 95-98-Me, Windows NT-2000-XP-Vista-7, AIX, XENIX, OS/400, Commodore 64, AmigaOS... and the list goes on for a while yet. In other words, I have pretty good experience with a broad range of user environments, from personal computers to mainframes and back again. I have seen really brilliant stuff on very limited hardware (AmigaOS comes to mind here) and absolute bone-headed design (ie, pre-Ubuntu Linux distributions with millions of menu options to overwhelm even power-users).

What I find particularly useful about what Apple has accomplished with Mac OS X is expressed in a very basic metric: how much does the system allow me to accomplish without the computer being a hinderance to my work? In the case of OS X, it is the best I have used with that respect.

Compare and contrast the user experience of a Windows machine to a Mac. Plug in a USB "keychain" drive. On the Mac, the OS adds an icon for that drive on your desktop, and creates a link in the /Volumes directory. That's all. On the Windows machine, a "balloon" pops up, with a sound, confirming that it recognized the drive. Another pops up soon afterwards, stating what kind of device it is. Then it pops up yet another balloon with the proper name of the device. Finally a balloon pops up to let you know the device is ready.

While these two sequences of events might seem trivial to examine, they provide deep insight into the mindset of Apple and Microsoft as software companies. Apple has a "zen"-like approach of keeping distractions to a minimum, breaking the user from his work flow only when absolutely necessary. They enforce this with strict UI standards for developers and tools within XCode to bring about a more consistent, low-key interface. The net effect of all this, plus the insistence on high-quality displays and interface hardware, creates a system that connects on a very deep human level in a near-symbiotic relationship. It's akin to a craftsman who has his one favorite tool; don't dare to make him use another one. The tool and the craftsman have become one. The same goes for a great computer interface and the user.

Now, let's look at Windows. Microsoft designed it around the "am I doing it right, boss?" approach. The system feels the need to inform you every time it's doing some piece of work for you. The problem with Microsoft's approach is that it is extremely disruptive to keeping a continuous thought pattern going with your desired task accomplishments. Windows requires the user to attend to a message that may or may not be trivial, each one requiring the same amount of momentary breaks in concentration. Add a more lax standard for developers' interfaces, and the Windows environment becomes cranial clutter; each application requiring the brain to slightly re-tool itself.

Now what on earth does any of this have to do with the Microsoft ad campaign? Well, it's quite simple. Microsoft can (rightly) go on TV and state that you can buy a cheaper computer. What it cannot claim is that you will be more productive with that Windows-based system, because most likely you will find yourself working around the distractions inherent in Microsoft's software philosophy. That is why Microsoft is betting good money over bad with this ad campaign -- because it's very difficult to pin down, in "bumper sticker" language, just why the experience of working on a Mac is better. Macs are better machines because they allow you to tap your creative potential with fewer encumbrances. The problem is -- put that in an ad.
post #402 of 521
Heres an idea, instead of telling me I'm wrong and directing me to wikapedia. Why not give me the specs on an Apple that matches those specs in the home computer line? Seriously give me some descent apple specs... honestly...I just got off the Apple page and can say there isnt anything outside the 2500 dollar mac pro that compares. Given, the specs on that are great but I didnt realize we were talking about super computers.... In the home computer arena you have to spend 2200 bucks to get equivalent specs. MY GOD. How can you be serious? I mean given it's a nice looking computer and OSX is a descent operating system. But if your going to tell me I'm wrong at least back it up with some info.
post #403 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitz View Post

Heres an idea, instead of telling me I'm wrong and directing me to wikapedia. Why not give me the specs on an Apple that matches those specs in the home computer line? Seriously give me some descent apple specs... honestly...I just got off the Apple page and can say there isnt anything outside the 2500 dollar mac pro that compares. Given, the specs on that are great but I didnt realize we were talking about super computers.... In the home computer arena you have to spend 2200 bucks to get equivalent specs. MY GOD. How can you be serious? I mean given it's a nice looking computer and OSX is a descent operating system. But if your going to tell me I'm wrong at least back it up with some info.

To be brutally honest, I think you're going to get taken for a ride. You are approaching the purchase of a computer with the wrong frame of mind. The question isn't one of megabytes, bells, horns, and whistles. The question is, what do you need to do with that computer? What are you trying to accomplish? How much is your time worth?

A computer is a tool. That's the key point that I think many people miss. Ultimately the creative potential of that tool comes from you. The question is, which tool allows you to unlock that potential with fewer distractions and artificial work flow limitations?

That is why a Mac is worth more money to those of us who use them every day. My time is very valuable to me; I don't consider feeding the "message of the minute" popup balloons and performing OS maintenance "work". It's not like I get to bill for them. Give me something that stays out of my way and lets me get things done.
post #404 of 521
Fair enough Robonerd. I really do understand why someone would want a Mac. I'm just frustrated with the bad wrap PCs get. Alot of Mac users don't even get the real differences between them.

I don't own a Mac. I have been tempted in the past to get one but I can't justify the price to myself.

Part of the reason I cant justify it is because I know whats under the hood. I completely get wanting something that will work 4 yrs from now as well as it did the day you bought it but given the price and low specs I just can't help but think maybe I'm getting taken for a ride. Honestly when I think of Mac I think of a computer company that gives you the proper specs for the basic use of it's operating system which is more than mid range dells and HPs do with Vista.

It is about OS(partially). Let me tell you though.....I don't use windows Vista but it is an operating system that got a bad wrap. People were trying to put it on machines(including manufacturers) that had no business putting an OS that uses so much system resource on machines that were barely adequate for xp.

I'm not saying they are bad machines any more than I'm saying Dells are good machines.
post #405 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Macs are special in that the OS is built around a very specific set of HW. Anyone can use this same basic HW, but that doesn't make it a Mac or give it the capability or running like a Mac. For your dream to come to fruition HW types would have to become greatly minimized, but there seems to be more and more popping up every day and new innovations sprouting up, which is why you have it backwards. Plus, there are many things you just can't do without specifically working with melding the OS with the HW to create a better UI and better user experience.

Exactly. A great deal of Windows problems stem from requiring it to run on so many different HW configurations. Then you have this driver not liking that driver, and so on.
Remember the nightmare called "Extensions Manager"?
post #406 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post

The word is: Symbian. Wasn't your spell checker screaming at you? If you are going to try and insult someone, at least get the spelling correct.

I call it that as a tribute to Monkeyboy!

Seriously? Who cares? Symbian is HARDLY A HOUSEHOLD NAME. If it's got Winmob on there, then who in their right mind would want it. Precisely no one.
post #407 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2kunlimited View Post

He meant anything you can get in a mac that cost $650. Are there any Mac that come close to that price?O yes...the mini. I guess you would prefer the mini over the spec that mitz have. Probably for the stylish looking lunch box and the great OSX.

Exactly. That, plus the Mac mini:
  • is much more compact
  • is near-silent
  • is much more energy efficient
  • includes Bluetooth 2.1 + EDR
  • includes 802.11n WiFi
  • includes FireWire 800
  • includes iLife '09
  • includes optical audio I/O

...and is pre-assembled!
post #408 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by s.ballmer View Post

Exactly. That, plus the Mac mini:
  • is much more compact
  • is near-silent
  • is much more energy efficient
  • includes Bluetooth 2.1 + EDR
  • includes 802.11n WiFi
  • includes FireWire 800
  • includes iLife '09
  • includes optical audio I/O

...and is pre-assembled!

Don't forget reliablility and support!

My next desktop computer will be a Mac Mini. No more bulky computer case to deal with, great support and reliability, runs OS X and Windows, great performance for the things I need to do. It'd be perfect for me. I'll probably get one once Snow Leopard is released.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #409 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboNerd View Post


Apple has a "zen"-like approach of keeping distractions to a minimum, breaking the user from his work flow only when absolutely necessary. They enforce this with strict UI standards for developers and tools within XCode to bring about a more consistent, low-key interface. The net effect of all this, plus the insistence on high-quality displays and interface hardware, creates a system that connects on a very deep human level in a near-symbiotic relationship. It's akin to a craftsman who has his one favorite tool; don't dare to make him use another one. The tool and the craftsman have become one. The same goes for a great computer interface and the user.
.

Very nicely put. The best marketing Macs ever had was the iPod. In a mature market that 'simple tasks done simply' philosophy wrapped in an aesthetically pleasing case swept the board. The iPod halo effect has been huge for Apple. For those in this thread that like to compare computers by drawing up lists of various components, consider Microsoft's go at making an mp3 player. I saw a teardown of a Zune that showed it was virtually identical, component for component, with the iPod. Despite that, the iPod continues to dominate the market and the Zune is just awaiting a quiet moment when it can be put out of its misery. So clearly the iPod experience is greater than the sum of the component parts, otherwise the Zune and iPod, identical price, virtually identical parts would sell roughly the same number of units.
Believe nothing, no matter where you heard it, not even if I have said it, if it does not agree with your own reason and your own common sense.
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Believe nothing, no matter where you heard it, not even if I have said it, if it does not agree with your own reason and your own common sense.
Buddha
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post #410 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Don't forget reliablility and support!

My next desktop computer will be a Mac Mini. No more bulky computer case to deal with, great support and reliability, runs OS X and Windows, great performance for the things I need to do. It'd be perfect for me. I'll probably get one once Snow Leopard is released.

I've had a Mac Mini now for a couple of years and it's worked flawlessly constantly. It's been powerful enough for everything I've done, it's super quiet playing video, surfing, iTunes, iPhoto etc simultaneously and the wireless keyboard has been a delight to use. Everything on it has worked 24/7 without a single glitch. I bought it and used it without having any knowledge of Apple products, except a few visits to browse the Apple store. Everything I've wanted to use it for has been plainly obvious as to how to do. In fact I found it easier and quicker to use, even in the beginning, than I ever found windows XP. I actually now enjoy using a computer!

I should add it's been with me on numerous long trips, thrown wrapped up in a sweater into a rucksack without any loss of function.
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post #411 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitz View Post

Heres an idea, instead of telling me I'm wrong and directing me to wikapedia. Why not give me the specs on an Apple that matches those specs in the home computer line? Seriously give me some descent apple specs... honestly...I just got off the Apple page and can say there isnt anything outside the 2500 dollar mac pro that compares. Given, the specs on that are great but I didnt realize we were talking about super computers.... In the home computer arena you have to spend 2200 bucks to get equivalent specs. MY GOD. How can you be serious? I mean given it's a nice looking computer and OSX is a descent operating system. But if your going to tell me I'm wrong at least back it up with some info.

Actually, I compared a configured XPS M1330, marketed as one of the thinnest 13" notebooks on the market, and a top Macbook, also a very thin 13".

Dell XPS M1330
-2.6GHz, 800MHz Core 2 Duo, 4MB of cache
-Vista Ultimate 64-bit (the only way he'll ever use 4GB)
-LED screen, 13"
-4GB of DDR2, 800MHz, SDRAM
-8x DVD-RW
-128mb GeForce 8400M GS
-Wireless N mini-card
-2.0 Bluetooth EDR
-10/100 Network Card
-128 SSD
-Plastic Case full of stickers
-Lots of Useless Bells and Whistles
-Microsoft Works 9.0
Price: $2009,00

Apple Macbook
-2.4GHz, 1066MHz Core 2 Duo 3MB of cache (remember that Apple kind of underclocks most of its systems)
-Mac OS X Leopard, "Ultimate Edition"
-LED screen, 13"
-4GB of DDR3, 1066MHz, SDRAM
-8x DVD-DL
-512mb GeForce 9400M (it is confirmed that with more RAM, OS X liberates more space for the GPU)
-Airport card (a/b/g/n + some cool features)
-2.1 Bluetooth EDR
-10/100/100 Network Card
-128 SSD
-Aluminum Unibody Case
-Lots of Useful Bells and Whistles
-iLife
Price: $2074,00

With a Mac you get:
A comparable processor
Faster RAM
Dual Layer burning
A much superior GPU
Faster Networking and Bluetooth
A nicer looking, cleaner, and more resistant case

And of course, the greatest of all reasons to get a Mac:
OS X + iLife!

But of course, it is $65 more expensive, so Macs sux, right?

iPhone 4S 64GB, Black, soon to be sold in favor of a Nokia Lumia 920
Early 2010 MacBook Pro 2.4GHz, soon to be replaced with a Retina MacBook Pro, or an Asus U500

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iPhone 4S 64GB, Black, soon to be sold in favor of a Nokia Lumia 920
Early 2010 MacBook Pro 2.4GHz, soon to be replaced with a Retina MacBook Pro, or an Asus U500

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post #412 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by s.ballmer View Post

Exactly. That, plus the Mac mini:
  • is much more compact
  • is near-silent
  • is much more energy efficient
  • includes Bluetooth 2.1 + EDR
  • includes 802.11n WiFi
  • includes FireWire 800
  • includes iLife '09
  • includes optical audio I/O

...and is pre-assembled!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Don't forget reliablility and support!

My next desktop computer will be a Mac Mini. No more bulky computer case to deal with, great support and reliability, runs OS X and Windows, great performance for the things I need to do. It'd be perfect for me. I'll probably get one once Snow Leopard is released.

You forgot OS X! That is, as many people have already said, enough reason to pay a premium (that is, when there is a premium at all) to buy a Mac!

iPhone 4S 64GB, Black, soon to be sold in favor of a Nokia Lumia 920
Early 2010 MacBook Pro 2.4GHz, soon to be replaced with a Retina MacBook Pro, or an Asus U500

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iPhone 4S 64GB, Black, soon to be sold in favor of a Nokia Lumia 920
Early 2010 MacBook Pro 2.4GHz, soon to be replaced with a Retina MacBook Pro, or an Asus U500

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post #413 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukeskymac View Post

Actually, I compared a configured XPS M1330, marketed as one of the thinnest 13" notebooks on the market, and a top Macbook, also a very thin 13".

Dell XPS M1330
-2.6GHz, 800MHz Core 2 Duo, 4MB of cache
-Vista Ultimate 64-bit (the only way he'll ever use 4GB)
-LED screen, 13"
-4GB of DDR2, 800MHz, SDRAM
-8x DVD-RW
-128mb GeForce 8400M GS
-Wireless N mini-card
-2.0 Bluetooth EDR
-10/100 Network Card
-128 SSD
-Plastic Case full of stickers
-Lots of Useless Bells and Whistles
-Microsoft Works 9.0
Price: $2009,00

Apple Macbook
-2.4GHz, 1066MHz Core 2 Duo 3MB of cache (remember that Apple kind of underclocks most of its systems)
-Mac OS X Leopard, "Ultimate Edition"
-LED screen, 13"
-4GB of DDR3, 1066MHz, SDRAM
-8x DVD-DL
-512mb GeForce 9400M (it is confirmed that with more RAM, OS X liberates more space for the GPU)
-Airport card (a/b/g/n + some cool features)
-2.1 Bluetooth EDR
-10/100/100 Network Card
-128 SSD
-Aluminum Unibody Case
-Lots of Useful Bells and Whistles
-iLife
Price: $2074,00

With a Mac you get:
A comparable processor
Faster RAM
Dual Layer burning
A much superior GPU
Faster Networking and Bluetooth
A nicer looking, cleaner, and more resistant case

And of course, the greatest of all reasons to get a Mac:
OS X + iLife!

But of course, it is $65 more expensive, so Macs sux, right?


Comparing an over priced piece of garbage laptop to a solid but overpriced laptop doesn't say much. Sure if you gave me only the coice between that Mac and the Dell, I'd take the Mac. If you gave me a choice between Alienware or shuttle VS. a Mac. We would be having a much different conversation.

Thats the problem. Dell is not by any stretch of the imagination the top computer maker for laptops. Your comparison doesn't show anything of any substance.


Here, for 1399.00 you can own an Alienware M17

# ntel® Core2 Extreme Quad (4 cores)
# ATI CrossFireX Dual Graphics (mucho better Graphics)
# 4GB 1066MHz DDR3 Memory
# 1TB Hard Drive Capacity
# Extreme High Def Video and Audio

Over 600.00 dollars cheaper than the Mac.

Or for 1999.99 you can have a small Shuttle PC With much better specs than your macs.

Quad-Core Intel® Xeon® processor or Intel® Core2 Extreme processor
\tYour choice of single or dual NVIDIA® Quadro® FX graphic cards
\tPCI Express Gen 2.0 with ATI CrossFireX Technology
\tDolby® Digital Live! and DTS connect surround sound
\tBuilt-in PCI Express Mini Card Slot; supports Optional Intel® Turbo Memory*
\t80 PLUS® certified power supply
\tAll solid capacitors motherboard design to ensure durability
\tDynamic Over-clocking Technology
\tUp to 2.2TB of Internal Storage Capacity*
\tUp To 8GB of DDR2 Memory*
\t
\tDimensions
(D) 12.8" x (W) 8.6" x (H) 8.2"
post #414 of 521
They just can't comprehend that the Mac experience goes beyond just the "specs", can they?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #415 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

They just can't comprehend that the Mac experience goes beyond just the "specs", can they?

It's like talking to Jehovah Witnesses. There is no experience, it's an OS. It runs what you want it to run. Mac has a brilliant PR and Marketing department that has made you think there is an "experience". Also the whole Easter bunny thing isn't real either. You are perfect money making machines. It's scary to think this is how religion works.

I just want one of you to admit that you really like the OS but on the tech side Apple could be beefed up a bit(alot) for the price. Why are you happy about spending so much for a mid level computer with a nice OS?

You realize that if you priced out Apple components separately and they sold the OS separately the whole thing would cost so much less. I guess that what Hackentoshes are all about. With comparisons on PCs with equal specs, on average your paying between $800 and $1000 for just the OS.

Really you are getting taken advantage of. You should be flaming mad.
post #416 of 521
lol, I'm getting mad for you.
post #417 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitz View Post

Or for 1999.99 you can have a small Shuttle PC With much better specs than your macs.

Mitz, here an idea: The next time you need to buy a car, make sure you do it from catalog. No test drives allowed.

I'm sure you'll make a fine, fully informed choice.
post #418 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitz View Post

I just want one of you to admit that you really like the OS

I really like the OS.

Quote:
but on the tech side Apple could be beefed up a bit(alot) for the price.

But on the tech side (I presume you mean "hardware side"), Apple offers even more bang-for-the-buck.

Quote:
You realize that if you priced out Apple components separately and they sold the OS separately the whole thing would cost so much less.

No it wouldn't. Build your "Mac," leaving nothing out. Unfortunately, you won't be able to match the case or the motherboard, but do the best you can.

Report your results here.
post #419 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

They just can't comprehend that the Mac experience goes beyond just the "specs", can they?

That is the REAL point of all of this discussion now isn't it? It is certainly not about hardware because functionally, it is basically all very similar. In the end it is the OS, that is OS X. Frankly, I could care less if my computer hardware was a squirrel cage and a solar panel with a CRT display, as long as it ran OS X.

You hit that nail right on the head...
Mac user since 1990 - System 6.0.7 through OS X 10.6 - Mac Mini (2009) - 4/320 - Snow Leopard
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Mac user since 1990 - System 6.0.7 through OS X 10.6 - Mac Mini (2009) - 4/320 - Snow Leopard
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post #420 of 521
So I had to make due with some parts that aren't mac proprietary but when I couldn't find an exact match I over estimated what the spec is.

Most of this was found on Newegg.com

The Mac I based this on was the $2199.00

I built it for $1594.94

I fudged the casing because I couldn't get actual Imac case, I estimated $200.00 for one.... I could be wrong and it could be closer to $300....educated guess....

The PSU, Wireless N, and Heat Sink I guessed at as I know how much these typicaly cost for PC.

PSU-$50.00
Wireless N-$50.00
Heat Sink- $30.00


I allowed for $150.00 for the motherboard as this will get you a halfway descent one on a PC. $200 would get you a very kick ass one.



4 gb corsair 1066mhz ram. $129.99 (this is Mac Ram)

Intel Core 2 Duo E8500 Wolfdale 3.16GHz LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor Model BX80570E8500 - Retail - $189.99

Seagate Barracuda ES.2 ST31000340NS 1TB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM
-$159.99

Sony Optiarc Slim Combo Black SATA Model CRX890S-10 - OEM
\t 24X CD-R 24X CD-RW
\t 8X DVD-ROM 24X CD-ROM
\t 2MB Cache
-$34.99

GIGABYTE GV-N98TOC-512I GeForce 9800 GT 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card - Retail
-$119.99

(This card has aprox. same specs as IMac but is external as oposed to being integrated.)


Acer G24 Orange 24" 2ms(GTG) HDMI Widescreen LCD Monitor - Retail
-$379.99

(not my favorite looking monitor but it's nice looking for price and close enough for par)


-IMac- $2199.00
-PC with IMac Specs-$1594.94

Difference of 604.06

Check it out....I think I was being more than fair with my pricing. I personaly think I added atleast $200.00 of unneeded stuff just so I wasn't accused of low balling.

Obviously apple pays much less for these components as they get wholesale.

I think this is relatively reasonable......
post #421 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by imacmadman22 View Post

That is the REAL point of all of this discussion now isn't it? It is certainly not about hardware because functionally, it is basically all very similar. In the end it is the OS, that is OS X. Frankly, I could care less if my computer hardware was a squirrel cage and a solar panel with a CRT display, as long as it ran OS X.

You hit that nail right on the head...

Trust me you would care if it was a squirrel in a cage with a solar panel, I promise you. I think you could deal with the CRT too though.
post #422 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

As I stated, it's not identical, not even close unless we close our eyes real tight and pretend really hard. I suppose that both machines have Intel processors that must be identical. (sarcasm) The CPU differences along cost more than $100 on the MBP than the XPS you list. It's faster and has double the L2 cache. Dell sells that same CPU for the XPS for an additional $125 as a BTO option. That doesn't mean much to most people so spec sheets often don't list it and with a measly measurement of Megabytes appended to it even people that call themselves "tech savvy" don't care. "Megabytes? What is this 1990?" But that doubling does make a difference when doing actually work.

Then there is your superficial listing of the XPS' LCD resolution but you didn't list the backlighting, much less the display type. I don't think I've seen any 16" IPS displays on notebook. Do you really expect a pro to do any real colour work on that XPS? You'll also need to upgrade to Windows Vista Ultimate to offer the most similar OS features to OS X across the board. There goes another $150.

You also mention the video card being better. I have no need for excessive graphics so I don't such things but I do know that 2 is more than 1 and the MBP has the 9400M and the 9600. But I must ask how much better is the 512MB ATI Mobility RADEON in the XPS over the 512MB Nvidia 9600M in the MBP? What is the price the difference between these two new graphics processors in the MBP v. the one in the XPS?

Your durability statement is only anecdotal and the MBP may be overkill to most people but you can't think that a milled piece of aluminum that doesn't flex is as comparable to plastic molded pieces glued and snapped together. Though, it does weight a pound more than the MBP and it considerably thicker so perhaps that extra weight has gone to making the plastic frame nice and tough. I wonder how much that costs?

How is the quietness of the XPS? How big is the battery in mAh? How long does it last on a full charge? How long does it take to charge? What is the quality of the keybaord for prolonged typing (that one is hard to quantify, easier to cmpare)? What is the power supply wattage? What are the operating temperatures? What types of external displays can I hook it up to? What type of networking is there? How fast are various networking types? Does it have optical audio in/out? You don't mention that you'll have to spend another $80 on a battery or $45 on a WiFI card that most resembles the MBP build, or that the size and the XPS is now even more weighty than before because of these additions.

These questions, technical concerns and all these additions that make it a better comparison you have never asked about. You just see 16" is bigger than 15" and went from there. That is fine, you are most people and need only "good enough". There is no computer that fits everyone's needs. If you 4 year old Inspirion 6000 works for you that is great, but what I don't understand is why you would come onto an internet forum, of all things, just to tell people off because they have different needs than you. Tell me, why are we all stupid for not getting a Dell just because you like yours so much? Why do you find it impossible for one product to fit your needs and one product to fit my needs. I think the both products are fine, but neither one that we have discussed suits my needs very well.

You can get very deep review of Dell Studio XPS 16 at http://www.anandtech.com/mobile/showdoc.aspx?i=3540. It is great laptop but not perfect. Screen appears to be absolutely brilliant - and yes, I think it should be great for pro work. You'll find all the info on gamut, white and black levels, contrast... Battery not so stellar. And so on.
post #423 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtspetersen View Post

Microsoft is a SOFTWARE company. These ads are completely about HARDWARE specs. Apple is both a hardware and software company, something Microsoft cannot truly say. I find it telling that in the past 2 years, we haven't really seen a thing from Microsoft about their Software. Sure i have seen some kids show me how easy it is to make a slideshow on their tv.


These are HP Ads. I could care less if HP made an ad like this. They should be. But for some reason Microsoft has to put the gloves on and step in the ring for them. Seriously, attack ads from a software company about hardware differences? Its not about who has more GHz or RAM or memory speeds or anything. It never has been. Microsoft really doesn't get it.

Maybe because "Get a Mac" campaign was much more about software, though it was supposed to sell computers (hardware)..?
post #424 of 521
And actually guys, MS does make a computer. It's called X-Box. How many people bashing MS on here own one of those? Technically it's more like a computer than a traditional gaming platform.

You can even run Linux on it
post #425 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by tawilson View Post

DDR3 has large performance gains over DDR2 of the same bus speed.

Check this link and then come back:

http://www.anandtech.com/memory/showdoc.aspx?i=2989&p=1
post #426 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitz View Post

And actually guys, MS does make a computer. It's called X-Box.

Yup, and instead of the blue screen of death you get the red ring of death. different product, same result - gotta love microsoft.
post #427 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

HDD brand generally a seagate, Notebooks don't tecnically have a Power Supply, they have an AC Adapter going to DC Power, Screens vary on model and who won the bid for OEM, I've seen Philipps, I've Seen LG, MLB is an Apple Designed board manufactured by Intel.

HP
hard disk, whatever was cheap that week, AC Adapter, whatever was cheap that week, screens, whatever was cheap that week, Motherboard, whatever was cheap that week,(seriously, these aren't consistent) Case plastics...Fisher-Price.

Wow. WOW! Thanks for that input! That reveals sooo much!!! [/sarcasm]

No, really. I'd require more specific details than that.
post #428 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by durgapal View Post

Does Giampaolo know that PC World on Jul 25, 2007, rated MACBook Pro as the best machine to run Vista

He does.

He also knows in the last 2 years Macs haven't changed much, while PCs have changed a lot.
post #429 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitz View Post

The Mac I based this on was the $2199.00

Any chance you could give us a hint as to which Mac model you're aiming for? I'll assume it's the top-of-the-line iMac. If so, you will not be able to find or build a comparable PC. There is nothing in the PC world that matches this superb iMac all-in-one.

Quote:
4 gb corsair 1066mhz ram. $129.99 (this is Mac Ram)

No, it's not. The iMac uses DDR3. You're quoting DDR2.

Quote:
Intel Core 2 Duo E8500 Wolfdale 3.16GHz LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor Model BX80570E8500 - Retail - $189.99

You're way off base here. The iMac 3.06 GHz uses the X9100 Penryn XE processor with a 44W TDP and an MSRP of $851. The CPU you quoted has an MSRP of just $266.

Back to the drawing boards...

Quote:
Acer G24 Orange 24" 2ms(GTG) HDMI Widescreen LCD Monitor - Retail -$379.99

Sorry--no go here either. The Acer is a 6-bit display whereas the 24" iMac's is an 8-bit display. The 24" iMac display also has a much wider viewing angle than the Acer.

Quote:
-PC with IMac Specs-$1594.94

Now add about $30 for the RAM, $500 for the CPU, and $200 for the display and you get approximately $2,325 or $125 more than the iMac.

However, you're not finished yet. To your $2,325 system, you have to add:
  • a keyboard
  • a mouse
  • Bluetooth 2.1 + EDR
  • FireWire 800
  • a webcam
  • self-powered speakers
  • optical audio I/O
  • iLife (unfortunately, there is no equivalent for Windows, so good luck!)
  • your labor
  • a 1 year single-source warranty

I presume you're using Linux and that's why you haven't included the cost of the OS...

So, your system is now up to $2,550++ and it's still not comparable. Not looking like much of a bargain...
post #430 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by Expat View Post

And it will seem even sillier in 5 years when you are still using the same functional computer, but the dell owner will be on her second or third machine.

People, you are incredible!

I can't recall I've ever seen such self-indulgence!
post #431 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adjei View Post

I wonder why we never hear stories upon stories of mac users switching to PC's but we always here of PC users switching.

Isn't every Mac user with Windows and Bootcamp a bit of a switcher? Commuter-switcher? Occasional switcher? Maybe casual switcher..?
post #432 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post

The funny thing about your statements and those that think like you just go to show that Windoze is scared to death that people will pay more for styling, for function, and for a better OS. That bonehead in the commercial that claimed to be tech savvy was laughable. Obviously he did no homework and embarrassed himself. MS knows that people will pay more for something that will have a higher resale value (compare a 1 or 2 year old Mac with any HP or Dell and see which retains value). You might pay more initially for a Mac but what you save in extras evens out in the end. Bottom line, Macs market share will increase and MS will wane but it will never get to the point where MS is not an influential player.

Some people will pay more for styling.

Some people will prefer to have the job done while saving money for something else.

Macs are retaining value - among the other things - because next year Macs are almost the same with this year Macs. PCs are evolving faster, which is devaluating previous generations much faster. Additionally, PCs are much more common entities, and more competition in new and second hand markets is forcing prices down.

That being said, I hope Macs market will increase; that will force Microsoft to invest more effort in making next Windows, and in return better Windows will force Apple to be more competitive price wise. Great for all of us.
post #433 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitz View Post

Comparing an over priced piece of garbage laptop to a solid but overpriced laptop doesn't say much. Sure if you gave me only the coice between that Mac and the Dell, I'd take the Mac. If you gave me a choice between Alienware or shuttle VS. a Mac. We would be having a much different conversation.

I see you know lots about components, and for all I know you're a C++ programmer, but I think you don't get that for most people who buy Macs the thing about 'em is you don't have to know much about gear or about security and anti-malware software and what to do about User Control Access prompts, only have to reboot when there's a major system update, and whether if you have a problem the hardware support people will tell you it's an OS problem and refer you to MS, and MS will tell you it's a component problem, so you call Dell back (in Bangalore) and 30 minutes later they have you calling the graphics card vendor, whereas with Apple Care there's a single point of accountable support in fluent English for the most part. It's always having the menu in the same place, installing programs by dragging an icon half an inch, having more things work the same way in more programs. It's playing with delightfully designed software rather than managing systems and hardware.

And to whatever extent there's an "Apple Tax," for those of us who'd be buying in Apple's general price ranges, for the benefits above it's well worth it to those folks. (This premium is overrated by Win fans, but it exists in some ways.)

Friends still call me for Win Support, and luckily I'm beginning to forget how to help them because I've been able to rededicate the part of my brain reserved for exotic computer maintenance knowledge to more useful purposes.

You're a geek who reads spec sheets on mobos in your spare time, "not that there's anything wrong with that" (I used to be one in fact), so you'll likely never be a Mac type and should never consider one. Some people build their own homes too, just the way they like 'em and save some $ in the process, but me, I just like to turn the key and walk into one that's pretty cool and pre-configured with 90% of my wish list about what should be in the house, where it should be and how it's put together.

But I'll bet you are a good fisherman. 'Cos you've had people constantly rising to take your bait ever since you joined this thread.

An iPhone, a Leatherman and thou...  ...life is complete.

Reply

An iPhone, a Leatherman and thou...  ...life is complete.

Reply
post #434 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

One of the reasons Mac's run like a Mac should, is because it's hardware is in part, designed by Apple. Apple works closely with it's suppliers to make their designs integrate as much as possible with Apples other hardware and OS. Indeed Apple has gained such a lead in the performance and reliability in their products through this relationship with their suppliers that MS is pushing their PC makers to take the same approach, as consumers aren't happy. One down side of that though, for the PC makers is that it pushes up their prices, which given the fierce competition to keep prices low means that that's going to be a steep hill for the PC makers to climb. If you want a computer that's fun and easy to use and is reliably so, then get a Mac.

Mate. This sounds as North Korean propaganda pamphlet

Performance and reliability..?

What about things like recent dodgy graphics with display corruption? Previous generations of problematic graphics chips? Is that also result of Apple's design integrated?

Amount of vapourware and urban myths around here is incredible...
post #435 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

OS, bundled software, support, and quality of components, uptime, ease up upgrade (with Migration assistant or the fact you can pull a hard disk out of one Mac install it in another and it will boot without SSID issues, or dirver issues.) I don't have to buy additional codecs for my computer to play a DVD, I don't have to buy additional software just to burn a DVD, I don't have to buy anti-virus software and renew it every year. I don't have to pay hundreds of dollars to get a real incremental backup solution. I don't have to worry about missing or corrupt dlls.

$900 more? I've made that money back 8 times in the last year alone, just in the amount of time I've saved.

I know this doesn't apply necessarily to consumers, but when the software I run on my computer costs $25,000, I don't care how much the computer cost, and when I make that money back on the first project I do, I don't care there either. I know plenty of companies around here that have bought MacBook Pros to install Windows on it and run Revit. They went that way because the PC that could run it just as well cost $500 more and wieghed 14 pounds. Plus because they weren't going to be discontinuing the MacBook Pro and replace it with something "similar" which happens all the time in the PC world (btw, the only thing similar in those PCs are the color) it makes supporting them a lot easier.

I had 6 PCs come in to the shop this weekend frantic because "I run My Business off this thing, I need it fixed now" Why anyone buys a $600 consumer laptop to run their business off of is beyond me. (Why they don't backup is a completely other issue) The quickest I could get the parts in was 8 days later. For Apple, I wait until they deliver the part on the Next Day. Dell can't do that anymore, they stopped that practice 3 years ago.

When you have a problem with Windows on an HP, Dell, or whatever, who do you call? The computer maker? They will send you to Microsoft, if Microsoft determines it is a driver issue, they will direct you elsewhere. When you have a problem with Mac OS X, you call Apple. You get the whole package.

Am I denying Apple computers cost more, No, do they cost too much? I don't think so, because my return on investment is always over 100%, can I get that with a PC, perhaps, never had a reason to try. I just know that since I've serviced over 4,000 computers in the last 3 years, I know what I like.

I'm still waiting on proof about quality of components. All I see so far is bragging. Other things:

- Windows Easy Transfer will transfer your documents and settings between different computers and Windows versions.

- I have never-ever purchased codec for any of my Windows computers. Please provide some details.

- Windows has some burning capabilities on it's own, and every burner comes with burning and additional software - usually some of Nero packs.

- I haven't spent a $ on antivirus software; all my PCs are running AVG or Comodo antivirus, both free, with automatic updates. There are 8 computers in my house. 5 are in use daily. Time for maintenance beside initial setup? None. Everything is set and forget.

- Vista Business and Ultimate both have automated backup, System Restore for reverting to previous system configurations without data loss and will keep previous versions of user files based on Microsoft shadow copy technology. Advanced backup solutions - like StorageCraft ShadowProtect, with hardware independent restore, will cost you less than us$70. What are we talking about here?

- I agree with you that, if you are a pro and have big money invested in software and other equipment (say, photo gear), price difference in computing hardware can be irrelevant. For everyone else, Macs are more expensive than PCs. Even after purchasing additional iLife grade software. Some are willing to pay for good looks and OSX. Some are not. At the end of day, it is all down to personal preference and budget.
post #436 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinney57 View Post

Apart from every design house, advertising company, video editing company, sound studio, etc. The only person I know who doesn't use a Mac is my brother... who works for IBM.

I've not seen so much PC trolling for years. This must be costing MS a fortune.

That quote from me was referring to cars, not Macs. How many design house, adverstising companies, video editing companies are there? In fact, I'm guessing that the workforce of IMB alone is greater than all those other companies combined. The vast, and I do mean vast, majority of people, employed or otherwise, use PCs and that's a fact.

I don't work for MS either, I work in telecoms. I just prefer Windows. I game, overclock, upgrade hardware and generally like to tweak my computer so Macs aren't an option for me.
post #437 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by s.ballmer View Post

Really?

- can you snag the power cord unconcerned that your fumble may pull your PC laptop crashing down on the floor?
- can you put your PC laptop into target disk mode so that its internal drive can be accessed and used as an external drive on another computer?
- can you run your 17" PC laptop for well over 6 hours on the internal battery alone?
- does your PC laptop provide two internal video cards?
- does your PC laptop's trackpad support multi-touch gestures?

- can your PC be safely used for Internet activities without malware protection?
- does your PC provide built-in dual boot capability?
- does your Windows PC provide pre-configured plug-and-play backup?
- does your Windows PC provide built-in virtual workspace capability?
- can you play commercial movie DVDs without installation of additional software?

...and so much more, without even taking into account the integrated capabilities of the iLife suite...

PhoenixRising, you really shouldn't post unless you know what you're talking about...



Is that what you felt when you discovered that Mac users can game natively and upgrade their systems' components?

Go and stick a GTX 295 in and then play Crysis. Then come back to me.
post #438 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitz View Post

It's like talking to Jehovah Witnesses. There is no experience, it's an OS. It runs what you want it to run. Mac has a brilliant PR and Marketing department that has made you think there is an "experience". Also the whole Easter bunny thing isn't real either. You are perfect money making machines. It's scary to think this is how religion works.

For me the experience is the OS not getting in my way, bugging me with annoying messages every time I plug something in, remove something, change something, etc...

And by the way the Mach kernel and Linux kernels are two completely different entities.
post #439 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitz View Post

Comparing an over priced piece of garbage laptop to a solid but overpriced laptop doesn't say much. Sure if you gave me only the coice between that Mac and the Dell, I'd take the Mac. If you gave me a choice between Alienware or shuttle VS. a Mac. We would be having a much different conversation.

Thats the problem. Dell is not by any stretch of the imagination the top computer maker for laptops. Your comparison doesn't show anything of any substance.


Here, for 1399.00 you can own an Alienware M17

# ntel® Core2 Extreme Quad (4 cores)
# ATI CrossFireX Dual Graphics (mucho better Graphics)
# 4GB 1066MHz DDR3 Memory
# 1TB Hard Drive Capacity
# Extreme High Def Video and Audio

Over 600.00 dollars cheaper than the Mac.

Or for 1999.99 you can have a small Shuttle PC With much better specs than your macs.

Quad-Core Intel® Xeon® processor or Intel® Core2 Extreme processor
\tYour choice of single or dual NVIDIA® Quadro® FX graphic cards
\tPCI Express Gen 2.0 with ATI CrossFireX Technology
\tDolby® Digital Live! and DTS connect surround sound
\tBuilt-in PCI Express Mini Card Slot; supports Optional Intel® Turbo Memory*
\t80 PLUS® certified power supply
\tAll solid capacitors motherboard design to ensure durability
\tDynamic Over-clocking Technology
\tUp to 2.2TB of Internal Storage Capacity*
\tUp To 8GB of DDR2 Memory*
\t
\tDimensions
(D) 12.8" x (W) 8.6" x (H) 8.2"


The fact remains, your precious uber faster elite alienware laptop will still be running windoze :-(. I would still buy a slower mac for the reasons its underpinnings will be Unix. Why would I want to bog down my hardware resources with virus scanners, spyware software.
post #440 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by zindako View Post

The fact remains, your precious uber faster elite alienware laptop will still be running windoze :-(. I would still buy a slower mac for the reasons its underpinnings will be Unix. Why would I want to bog down my hardware resources with virus scanners, spyware software.

So you're willing to spend $600 more for slower hardware just so you can have OSX... Wow... Why don't just buy a netbook and you'll have a Hackintosh for next to nothing or would buying anything non-Apple branded be a mortal sin...
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