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Microsoft's latest ad attacks Mac aesthetics, computing power - Page 12

post #441 of 521
4/7/09 at 5:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

Mate. This sounds as North Korean propaganda pamphlet

Performance and reliability..?

What about things like recent dodgy graphics with display corruption? Previous generations of problematic graphics chips? Is that also result of Apple's design integrated?

Amount of vapourware and urban myths around here is incredible...

At least with a Mac, your fully covered. Apple take responsibility for everything in that computer. So when something goes wrong you know exactly who your dealing with, Apple. Because of Apple carefully integrating it's software and making design specifications directly to it's external hardware suppliers, redesigned to work exclusively with Apple's other hardware and OS X, it goes wrong far less often. No other PC maker can integrate their parts with their OS like that.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #442 of 521
4/7/09 at 6:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by s.ballmer View Post

Any chance you could give us a hint as to which Mac model you're aiming for? I'll assume it's the top-of-the-line iMac. If so, you will not be able to find or build a comparable PC. There is nothing in the PC world that matches this superb iMac all-in-one.



No, it's not. The iMac uses DDR3. You're quoting DDR2.



You're way off base here. The iMac 3.06 GHz uses the X9100 Penryn XE processor with a 44W TDP and an MSRP of $851. The CPU you quoted has an MSRP of just $266.

Back to the drawing boards...



Sorry--no go here either. The Acer is a 6-bit display whereas the 24" iMac's is an 8-bit display. The 24" iMac display also has a much wider viewing angle than the Acer.



Now add about $30 for the RAM, $500 for the CPU, and $200 for the display and you get approximately $2,325 or $125 more than the iMac.

However, you're not finished yet. To your $2,325 system, you have to add:
  • a keyboard
  • a mouse
  • Bluetooth 2.1 + EDR
  • FireWire 800
  • a webcam
  • self-powered speakers
  • optical audio I/O
  • iLife (unfortunately, there is no equivalent for Windows, so good luck!)
  • your labor
  • a 1 year single-source warranty

I presume you're using Linux and that's why you haven't included the cost of the OS...

So, your system is now up to $2,550++ and it's still not comparable. Not looking like much of a bargain...

Firewire is junk but if I wanted it I could easily find a mobo with it included in the price i quoted along with bluetooth and optical audio. I thought you seemed to know something about components. Sorry. My labor is free as I built it. I am my warranty as Nothing in a computer is that hard to troubleshoot. Picasso will work fine as ilife replacement and if you dont like that theres plenty of open source stuff to keep you entertained, even if you choose MS OS. I'll give you the keyboard and mouse argument though. Theirs nothing uber special about Apples mouse and keyboard pick both up for $50.00 at staples. You can actualy get a halfway descent MS wireless mouse and keyboard for that much. Oh yeah the speakers.....I'll tell you what, go ahead and pick up a hundred dollar pair. I think thats more than anyone ever uses but be my guest.

DDR 3 1066 is essentialy the same as ddr2 1066....or one could claim their both the same as ddr2 800. Bassicly. I knew you'd come back on me for that but I couldnt find Mac branded ram in ddr3 on newegg. trust me I can find 1066 ddr3 for cheaper than I quoted on this stuff if it's not labled Mac.

Your processor costs more because it's a mobile processor. performance is the same between the two.

But....I'll give you that after looking for your processor on ebay I can pick it up for 250.00 on a good deal. So add 60 bucks or so ontop of the allready large leadway I've given you... we are still talking hundreds of dollars cheaper. To be honest you can build an equivlent system with identical performance using AMD chip for even less.

The lcd thing is a no go as the one I point to has other redeaming qualitys outside of your suggestion. But if I want to I could find something that fits the exact specs of the mac for cheaper.... but it's difficult to match up exact specs on that.



I honestly think I added atleast an extra 200 dollars to the system as buffer before even making this response. The difference should come out of that but go ahead and slap extra on there too. If you can't find a board with firewire I'm sure you can pick up a pci variant for 5 or 6 dollars.

Now for the extra 4 or 5 hundred I just saved I might think about liquid cooling or even picking up a copy of windows 7 when it comes out. then I still have some money left over so...hmm.... howabout trading that dusty overpriced processor in?
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post #443 of 521
4/7/09 at 6:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

At least with a Mac, your fully covered. Apple take responsibility for everything in that computer. So when something goes wrong you know exactly who your dealing with, Apple. Because of Apple carefully integrating it's software and making design specifications directly to it's external hardware suppliers, redesigned to work exclusively with Apple's other hardware and OS X, it goes wrong far less often. No other PC maker can integrate their parts with their OS like that.

Sure they could but then they'd be over charging you too.
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post #444 of 521
4/7/09 at 6:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

At least with a Mac, your fully covered. Apple take responsibility for everything in that computer. So when something goes wrong you know exactly who your dealing with, Apple. Because of Apple carefully integrating it's software and making design specifications directly to it's external hardware suppliers, redesigned to work exclusively with Apple's other hardware and OS X, it goes wrong far less often. No other PC maker can integrate their parts with their OS like that.

What about the MacBookAir hinge defect and Apple asking for $800 to repair the problem even though the laptop was underwarranty? Apparently, that little problem comes under accidental damage. Apple are a good company and better than most but they're no angels.
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post #445 of 521
4/7/09 at 6:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixRising View Post

We want more substance over style.

So do mac users, that's why they want the OS they feel is superior, that being OS X. If you've never used it for any length of time, you don't know what you're missing so how can you say you are getting substance over style with something you haven't used enough to know about.

Most Mac users, by necessity (in the workplace, if not in school) are also experienced with Windows. That isn't true in reverse.
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post #446 of 521
4/7/09 at 6:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigpics View Post

I see you know lots about components, and for all I know you're a C++ programmer, but I think you don't get that for most people who buy Macs the thing about 'em is you don't have to know much about gear or about security and anti-malware software and what to do about User Control Access prompts, only have to reboot when there's a major system update, and whether if you have a problem the hardware support people will tell you it's an OS problem and refer you to MS, and MS will tell you it's a component problem, so you call Dell back (in Bangalore) and 30 minutes later they have you calling the graphics card vendor, whereas with Apple Care there's a single point of accountable support in fluent English for the most part. It's always having the menu in the same place, installing programs by dragging an icon half an inch, having more things work the same way in more programs. It's playing with delightfully designed software rather than managing systems and hardware.

And to whatever extent there's an "Apple Tax," for those of us who'd be buying in Apple's general price ranges, for the benefits above it's well worth it to those folks. (This premium is overrated by Win fans, but it exists in some ways.)

Friends still call me for Win Support, and luckily I'm beginning to forget how to help them because I've been able to rededicate the part of my brain reserved for exotic computer maintenance knowledge to more useful purposes.

You're a geek who reads spec sheets on mobos in your spare time, "not that there's anything wrong with that" (I used to be one in fact), so you'll likely never be a Mac type and should never consider one. Some people build their own homes too, just the way they like 'em and save some $ in the process, but me, I just like to turn the key and walk into one that's pretty cool and pre-configured with 90% of my wish list about what should be in the house, where it should be and how it's put together.

But I'll bet you are a good fisherman. 'Cos you've had people constantly rising to take your bait ever since you joined this thread.

Ha, I like you. You're right.
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post #447 of 521
4/7/09 at 6:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixRising View Post

What about the MacBookAir hinge defect and Apple asking for $800 to repair the problem even though the laptop was underwarranty? Apparently, that little problem comes under accidental damage. Apple are a good company and better than most but they're no angels.

I'm not familiar with that, so won't comment on it. All I can say is that the only problem I've had, so far, was a faulty camera on my iPhone and I was given a brand new iPhone as a result.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #448 of 521
4/7/09 at 6:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by GMHut View Post

So do mac users, that's why they want the OS they feel is superior, that being OS X. If you've never used it for any length of time, you don't know what you're missing so how can you say you are getting substance over style with something you haven't used enough to know about.

Most Mac users, by necessity (in the workplace, if not in school) are also experienced with Windows. That isn't true in reverse.

I was talking about the hardware.
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post #449 of 521
4/7/09 at 6:50am
There's really no point in arguing with PC users on an Apple site about which is better. They project the same sentiment MS is offering in their ads. For all the bluster about Windows machines, they're more prevalent, less expensive, whatever, the fact remains that they seek out Apple users to argue that Windows is better because, for some reason, even though they feel they are using the "better" platform, they also seem to feel strangely threatened by those who use Apple. Either it's a case of "doth protest too much" or they feel challenged by people who don't choose what they do and aren't just like them. They are the Rovian Neocons of the computer world. Strange.
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post #450 of 521
4/7/09 at 6:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixRising View Post

I was talking about the hardware.

You can't use OS X on a non Mac machine unless you bust you knuckles hacking it, so it's the same thing.
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post #451 of 521
4/7/09 at 6:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by GMHut View Post

You can't use OS X on a non Mac machine unless you bust you knuckles hacking it, so it's the same thing.

You can actually and it's a pretty easy process. I've done it myself. Same as installing any OS so no, it's not the same thing. I was comparing hardware only. If you wanna compare the OS, that's another thing entirely.
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post #452 of 521
4/7/09 at 7:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixRising View Post

You can actually and it's a pretty easy process. I've done it myself. Same as installing any OS so no, it's not the same thing. I was comparing hardware only. If you wanna compare the OS, that's another thing entirely.

Installing it once is not the same as maintaining it with peripherals and the numerous OS X updates. It's not easy, all you have to do is read the hackintosh forums to see this. Again, the whole thing with Apple, the user experience, functionality, performance, is that the hardware and OS are for all intents and purposes, integrated. That is something PC users just don't seem to get. Windows is not HP or Dell or Sony, but OS X, PLUS the Mac is Apple. If you choose the OS, you choose the hardware with Apple. Now, if you want to argue that Apple has holes in it's hardware lineup, as a loyal Mac user, I will agree whole heartedly with you that Apple is too limiting in their desktop lineup—once again for the millionth time from me: mid-range headless Mac please.
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post #453 of 521
4/7/09 at 7:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixRising View Post

So you're willing to spend $600 more for slower hardware just so you can have OSX... Wow... Why don't just buy a netbook and you'll have a Hackintosh for next to nothing or would buying anything non-Apple branded be a mortal sin...

I have been using OSX for over 6 years now, I can not see myself using anything else, I also built a PC box running Ubuntu Linux, which serves my other needs, sorry but you can not sell me on anything running the windows operating system.
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post #454 of 521
4/7/09 at 7:26am
Best analogy I've heard so far. As a user if both, I've also thought this.

Also, a lot of people forget this, but when IBM was in control they really believed that the end user would be using a terminal and would require the IT white shirt black tie tech consultant to help them with user problems. As well, compound this with Jobs and Gates being and thinking different, one is right grained, the other left brained.

As well, as another user pointed out, many design advert firms, agencies, video,audio post all had macs, it's true but Jobs dreamedband stated during first iMac release he envisioned an iMac in every home. This never transpired. The cost was to high and up until the intel switch, even with alvitec, they we're under powered and while some say megahertz doesn't matter anymore, it does as all chips, while slower than 5 years ago, a 3.4 duo core will be faster than. 2.4 duo core. It didn't matter when the duo cores were compared to p4 chips, today, for the most part, are all duo, quad, etc., core. These server Chios should have stayed on Xserve and the i7 with cheaper ram should have been on the mac pros. Just my 2 cents.

Peace.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboNerd View Post

Well, technically, OpenStep.

Coming from a jack-of-all-trades experience in all things computing, I'd like to throw my two cents in with the whole Microsoft advertising campaign. I think there's a little bit of "everyone is right, and everyone is wrong" involved here. Let's leave the more obvious things aside -- the malware, viruses, etc., simply because those are external forces. Let's talk about inherent traits of both the Mac and Windows approach to user experience.

I've used a huge variety of systems over my time... CP/M, Apple ][ DOS, MS-DOS, Windows/286, Windows 3.xx, OS/2 2.0 - OS/2 4.0, Linux/GNOME, Linux/KDE, Linux/Enlightenment, Linux with no X server installed... Solaris, Windows 95-98-Me, Windows NT-2000-XP-Vista-7, AIX, XENIX, OS/400, Commodore 64, AmigaOS... and the list goes on for a while yet. In other words, I have pretty good experience with a broad range of user environments, from personal computers to mainframes and back again. I have seen really brilliant stuff on very limited hardware (AmigaOS comes to mind here) and absolute bone-headed design (ie, pre-Ubuntu Linux distributions with millions of menu options to overwhelm even power-users).

What I find particularly useful about what Apple has accomplished with Mac OS X is expressed in a very basic metric: how much does the system allow me to accomplish without the computer being a hinderance to my work? In the case of OS X, it is the best I have used with that respect.

Compare and contrast the user experience of a Windows machine to a Mac. Plug in a USB "keychain" drive. On the Mac, the OS adds an icon for that drive on your desktop, and creates a link in the /Volumes directory. That's all. On the Windows machine, a "balloon" pops up, with a sound, confirming that it recognized the drive. Another pops up soon afterwards, stating what kind of device it is. Then it pops up yet another balloon with the proper name of the device. Finally a balloon pops up to let you know the device is ready.

While these two sequences of events might seem trivial to examine, they provide deep insight into the mindset of Apple and Microsoft as software companies. Apple has a "zen"-like approach of keeping distractions to a minimum, breaking the user from his work flow only when absolutely necessary. They enforce this with strict UI standards for developers and tools within XCode to bring about a more consistent, low-key interface. The net effect of all this, plus the insistence on high-quality displays and interface hardware, creates a system that connects on a very deep human level in a near-symbiotic relationship. It's akin to a craftsman who has his one favorite tool; don't dare to make him use another one. The tool and the craftsman have become one. The same goes for a great computer interface and the user.

Now, let's look at Windows. Microsoft designed it around the "am I doing it right, boss?" approach. The system feels the need to inform you every time it's doing some piece of work for you. The problem with Microsoft's approach is that it is extremely disruptive to keeping a continuous thought pattern going with your desired task accomplishments. Windows requires the user to attend to a message that may or may not be trivial, each one requiring the same amount of momentary breaks in concentration. Add a more lax standard for developers' interfaces, and the Windows environment becomes cranial clutter; each application requiring the brain to slightly re-tool itself.

Now what on earth does any of this have to do with the Microsoft ad campaign? Well, it's quite simple. Microsoft can (rightly) go on TV and state that you can buy a cheaper computer. What it cannot claim is that you will be more productive with that Windows-based system, because most likely you will find yourself working around the distractions inherent in Microsoft's software philosophy. That is why Microsoft is betting good money over bad with this ad campaign -- because it's very difficult to pin down, in "bumper sticker" language, just why the experience of working on a Mac is better. Macs are better machines because they allow you to tap your creative potential with fewer encumbrances. The problem is -- put that in an ad.
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post #455 of 521
4/7/09 at 7:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zindako View Post

I have been using OSX for over 6 years now, I can not see myself using anything else, I also built a PC box running Ubuntu Linux, which serves my other needs, sorry but you can not sell me on anything running the windows operating system.

I was trying to sell you OSX...\ I suggested getting a netbook and installing OSX on it so you have a Hackintosh. Since you're happy to pay more for slower hardware, why don't you pay LESS for even slower hardware This way will be a lot cheaper than any Mac laptop.
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post #456 of 521
4/7/09 at 7:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixRising View Post

I was trying to sell you OSX...\ I suggested getting a netbook and installing OSX on it so you have a Hackintosh. Since you're happy to pay more for slower hardware, why don't you pay LESS for even slower hardware This way will be a lot cheaper than any Mac laptop.

Have you ever thought maybe I like the way apple hardware is designed and can last for several years before even thinking about upgrades? seriously, there is nothing these netbooks have that I would desire, they are running extremely low level machines, that lack the finish and aesthetics of apple hardware, sorry but the price of a normal macbook is worth paying over that of a $600 netbook. Besides apple hardware has such tight integration with its various products available, ie ipods, iphones, itunes software etc. The way I see things now, if you are happy with using windows on slower or faster hardware, that is your business.

Folks that are happy purchasing and using apple hardware/software will always see the value in sticking with their associated vendor. Do not get it twisted, I have used windoze in the past, but after having to reformat and reinstall windoze due to malware and viruses, it gets old really fast. My 3 year old macpro workstation is still kicking with 8Gigs of ram and is more than ready to tackle an upgrade to snow leopard when it debuts.
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post #457 of 521
4/7/09 at 7:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zindako View Post

Have you ever thought maybe I like the way apple hardware is designed and can last for several years before even thinking about upgrades? seriously, there is nothing these netbooks have that I would desire, they are running extremely low level machines, that lack the finish and aesthetics of apple hardware, sorry but the price of a normal macbook is worth paying over that of a $600 netbook. Besides apple hardware has such tight integration with its various products available, ie ipods, iphones, itunes software etc. The way I see things now, if you are happy with using windows on slower or faster hardware, that is your business.

Folks that are happy purchasing and using apple hardware/software will always see the value in sticking with their associated vendor. Do not get it twisted, I have used windoze in the past, but after having to reformat and reinstall windoze due to malware and viruses, it gets old really fast. My 3 year old macpro workstation is still kicking with 8Gigs of ram and is more than ready to tackle an upgrade to snow leopard when it debuts.

You keep going round in circles. Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall so I'm going to stop now.
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post #458 of 521
4/7/09 at 8:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixRising View Post

You keep going round in circles. Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall so I'm going to stop now.

This has been your best response thus far.
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post #459 of 521
4/7/09 at 8:08am
Saw this posted somewhere else and thought it was very appropriate.

"Perhaps we could just stop saying "OS X is better than OS Y (pun intended)" or "OS Y is the best operating system we have period"? The best operating system does not exist. It totally depends on the person who is using it and the tasks that need to be done. If people would just say "This OS is the best for me", that would be a true reflection of reality. Saying "This OS is the best" is not.

I've been working with OS X in the past year and a half as a web designer, with Mac evangelists all around me to help me point to software and tips and tricks. But guess what - XP is still my preferred OS and this won't change. OS X is a very good OS and it would be a better OS than XP for many, many people, but it's not the be all and end all (and neither is XP or Linux or...)."

I think Microsoft is going the right way with these ads as an OS does not apply to everybody. However, price does. Chances are, many people will already have made up their minds on what to buy, regardless of price (as demonstrated in this thread). For those undecided, however, price becomes an issue and by emphasising the price advantage that PCs have, Microsoft "could" be on to a winner. I say "could" because, if Apple comes out with a netbook, then all bets are off.
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post #460 of 521
4/7/09 at 8:41am
That Microsoft even considers Apple enough of a threat to run an ad campaign against them is quite telling.

We can argue here until we are blue in the face, but the fact of the matter remains:

Some people buy Macs. Some people buy bre-built Windows PCs. Some people build their own PCs. Some people use Mac OS. Some people use Windows. Some people use Linux. Some people don't even use computers at all.

Why does it have to be about who is right or wrong, or who is better? If your computer helps you accomplish whatever you need/want to accomplish, who's to tell you you're "wrong"?

It doesn't make much sense for someone who is perfectly content with a $699 Windows laptop to tell someone who is perfectly content with a $2500 MBP that they are somehow "wrong" for buying the MBP.

You're essentially telling them "you shouldn't have bought it because I wouldn't have". Huh??

Someone who doesn't use computers at all could just as easily tell the $699 laptop guy that he's an idiot for spending so much on a "stupid computer".

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #461 of 521
4/7/09 at 9:02am
Working in IT, I have been fighting this war for a long time, though I no longer have the energy to argue it.

Yes, Macs cost more. You can compare specs between Apple and PC Vendor X or Y all day long, compare benchmarks, software offerings, etc until the cows come home but for me, it comes down to these items:

1. Design. Pick up one of the new Macbook or Macbook Pros by the corner of the case. In the other hand, do the same with a PC notebook. Look at how much the PC flexes and how it just feels unsteady. The Mac is solid; it's thin, it weighs less and it's of higher quality. When it comes to notebooks, it is worth it to me to have this quality as I take it with me everywhere. To me, that's worth the cost.

2. Software - Put simply, I'm more productive in Mac OS X than in Windows. The guts of the OS get the hell out of my way and let me do my work. If I want to futz around with them, I can do so if I MUST, but I've been working in a mixed platform IT environment for 15 years. My screwdriver has been relegated to the drawer with the 10,000 twisty-ties and 743 Bic Stick pens. Also, I should point out that I don't have to spend hours installing updates, removing trialware/bloatware and manufacturer "utilities" on a Mac. I'm up and running within minutes, not hours.

3. Support - Apple has treated me VERY well with support. My PowerBook G4 lost it's ability to display video properly about 2 months before the end of AppleCare. The logic board for this model wasn't available, so 2 days later, I had a brand new Macbook Pro delivered to my house, free of charge. If I ever need to call for support, I get a well-trained person who speaks the language perfectly. Getting through the process smoothly and quickly is worth the cost.

4. Compatibility - There are certain applications out there that are better on the Windows side due to the sheer number of developers for the platform. The ability to run Windows on my Mac resolves those issues. If it weren't for the apps I use to edit and reburn my TiVo files (Toast doesn't count because it sucks at it) and Quicken, I would never run Windows at all.
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post #462 of 521
4/7/09 at 9:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixRising View Post

You keep going round in circles. Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall so I'm going to stop now.

What a HYPOCRITE!

iPhone 4S 64GB, Black, soon to be sold in favor of a Nokia Lumia 920
Early 2010 MacBook Pro 2.4GHz, soon to be replaced with a Retina MacBook Pro, or an Asus U500

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iPhone 4S 64GB, Black, soon to be sold in favor of a Nokia Lumia 920
Early 2010 MacBook Pro 2.4GHz, soon to be replaced with a Retina MacBook Pro, or an Asus U500

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post #463 of 521
4/7/09 at 9:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by GMHut View Post

... they also seem to feel strangely threatened by those who use Apple. Either it's a case of "doth protest too much" or they feel challenged by people who don't choose what they do and aren't just like them.

It's nothing if not a 2-way street. AI flamebaits by writing these articles about MS's ads (rarely writing about Apple's own ads) because they feel Apple is "under attack" and are compelled to defend them repeatedly with these articles. (3 and counting.)

And of course the troops from both camps take the (flame)bait and people in both get their panties in a bunch.
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post #464 of 521
4/7/09 at 10:17am
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Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

- Windows Easy Transfer will transfer your documents and settings between different computers and Windows versions.

That is in no way comparable to Migration Assistant:
Windows Easy Transfer
Step One: "Install the small software application that was included with your cable..."

Good one, Microsoft.

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- I have never-ever purchased codec for any of my Windows computers. Please provide some details.

Microsoft has some of your details right here:
Plug-ins for Windows Media Player

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Windows has some burning capabilities on it's own

"Some burning capabilities?" That's comforting...

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Time for maintenance beside initial setup?

Yeah, but that pesky "initial setup" gets you every time.

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- Vista Business and Ultimate both have automated backup, System Restore for reverting to previous system configurations without data loss and will keep previous versions of user files based on Microsoft shadow copy technology. Advanced backup solutions - like StorageCraft ShadowProtect, with hardware independent restore, will cost you less than us$70. What are we talking about here?

I assume he's talking about Time Machine. You don't need a special version of Mac OS X to get it. And by the way, Time Machine provides hardware independent restore--at no extra cost.

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Macs are more expensive than PCs. Even after purchasing additional iLife grade software.

No, Macs are at least price-competitive with PCs. On the other hand, Apple does not cater to the bottom feeder market. Incidentally, there is no "iLife grade software" available for Windows.
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post #465 of 521
4/7/09 at 10:43am
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Originally Posted by mitz View Post

Firewire is junk

Interesting...

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but if I wanted it I could easily find a mobo with it included in the price i quoted along with bluetooth and optical audio.

Okay. Go do that then and tell me which one you chose.

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My labor is free as I built it.

So, your time is worth nothing?

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Picasso will work fine as ilife replacement

Really? Does Picasso allow you to create and burn movie DVDs? Does it provide movie editing? How about a digital audio workstation? How about WYSIWYG web page creation and CMS? And does it provide full integration between all those functions?

http://www.apple.com/ilife/

If it does, I must have missed it...

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DDR 3 1066 is essentialy the same as ddr2 1066

No, it's not. Among other things, DDR3 provides lower latencies and greater energy efficiency.

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Your processor costs more because it's a mobile processor. performance is the same between the two.

No, it's not: For one thing, the iMac's Penryn XE processor provides Dynamic Front Side Bus Throttling between 400MT/s and 1066MT/s. The Penryn also provides a much lower TDP of 44 W vs. the Wolfdale's 65 W.

You doing just a bit too much squirming in your rationalizations there, mitz...
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post #466 of 521
4/7/09 at 10:58am
No, Macs are at least price-competitive with PCs. On the other hand, Apple does not cater to the bottom feeder market. Incidentally, there is no "iLife grade software" available for Windows.[/QUOTE]

No they aren't. This is a myth. Apple is not competitively priced. It's just not. Most of you don't seem to know enough about components to know it's not. You like that it turns on and does what you want it to do but that doesn't mean it's by any stretch competitively priced. They are solid systems that work well but they by no means are anything but mid range computers. I actually like them for what they are but don't pretend they are worth the money. I guess I come from the perspective that i like to know what I'm paying for. By the way Intel is at least as bad as Microsoft with their business practices. You've been had. No OS is worth the money you are paying for it. You are paying many hundreds of dollars more for an OS. My only argument is that Yes it's a solid system, Yes OSX is a nice operating system, No it's not competitively priced, No the components aren't worth the money you pay for them.

They way I look at it you want an OS that you can do what you want to do with it(I admit you get that with OSX). You also want components that can drive that OS to its full potential(you don't get that with Mac). You also want something you can upgrade (upgrading Ram and Hard drive barely counts as being able to truly upgrade a system).
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post #467 of 521
4/7/09 at 11:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitz View Post

No, Macs are at least price-competitive with PCs. On the other hand, Apple does not cater to the bottom feeder market. Incidentally, there is no "iLife grade software" available for Windows.

Quote:
No they aren't. This is a myth. Apple is not competitively priced. It's just not. Most of you don't seem to know enough about components to know it's not. You like that it turns on and does what you want it to do but that doesn't mean it's by any stretch competitively priced. They are solid systems that work well but they by no means are anything but mid range computers. I actually like them for what they are but don't pretend they are worth the money. I guess I come from the perspective that i like to know what I'm paying for. By the way Intel is at least as bad as Microsoft with their business practices. You've been had. No OS is worth the money you are paying for it. You are paying many hundreds of dollars more for an OS. My only argument is that Yes it's a solid system, Yes OSX is a nice operating system, No it's not competitively priced, No the components aren't worth the money you pay for them.

They way I look at it you want an OS that you can do what you want to do with it(I admit you get that with OSX). You also want components that can drive that OS to its full potential(you don't get that with Mac). You also want something you can upgrade (upgrading Ram and Hard drive barely counts as being able to truly upgrade a system).


So windows is cheaper to purchase than mac osx?
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post #468 of 521
4/7/09 at 11:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by s.ballmer View Post

Interesting...



Okay. Go do that then and tell me which one you chose.



So, your time is worth nothing?



Really? Does Picasso allow you to create and burn movie DVDs? Does it provide movie editing? How about a digital audio workstation? How about WYSIWYG web page creation and CMS? And does it provide full integration between all those functions?

http://www.apple.com/ilife/

If it does, I must have missed it...



No, it's not. Among other things, DDR3 provides lower latencies and greater energy efficiency.



No, it's not: For one thing, the iMac's Penryn XE processor provides Dynamic Front Side Bus Throttling between 400MT/s and 1066MT/s. The Penryn also provides a much lower TDP of 44 W vs. the Wolfdale's 65 W.

You doing just a bit too much squirming in your rationalizations there, mitz...


No really that processor was made originaly as a mobile processor. Thats why the wattage is so low. Theres nothing wrong with mobile processors, I actually used to use some amd mobiles in rigs. They cost more though cause they do use less wattage. The throttling is something designed for less power usage in laptops. Come on you know that as well as I do.

Sure there are slight difference is ddr 3 but it's nothing you notice until you get up into higher speeds beyond 1066. The ddr3 overclocks better. I've never heard of a mac guy doing serious overclocking.

My time is worth a descent inexpensive system. Thats what I'd get from that.

You left out the line where I said you could get other opensource that could pick up slack. Although Ilife might be nice I'm not sure it's worth the price difference. Media center does some of those very things in vista. If you want a nice media player use VLC.
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post #469 of 521
4/7/09 at 11:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixRising View Post

You can actually and it's a pretty easy process. I've done it myself. Same as installing any OS so no, it's not the same thing. I was comparing hardware only. If you wanna compare the OS, that's another thing entirely.

trees. in. way.
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post #470 of 521
4/7/09 at 11:22am
MSI P965 Platinum Intel Core 2 Duo Motherboard

I didn't look very hard, this probably doesn't even have the right socket for that processor but it does have optical audio and firewire. Trust me if I can find this in 2 minuets I could find one with bluetooth in 5.

It's just an example of "yes you can find these aspects on a MOBO.

This one was about $130 I think..... I allowed between 150 and 200 in my spec.
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post #471 of 521
4/7/09 at 11:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitz View Post

You left out the line where I said you could get other opensource that could pick up slack. Although Ilife might be nice I'm not sure it's worth the price difference. Media center does some of those very things in vista. If you want a nice media player use VLC.

I love opensource/free software. Support for most such software is either spotty or nonexistent. Being a geek, myself, I usually don't have an issue Googling a problem to try and find a solution.

Other people may not have the desire to sift through a sea of websites and message boards to find a solution.

Again, it comes down to personal preference. It makes absolutely no sense to tell people they've been had, when they know all along exactly what they are doing.

Specs aside, it's the TOTAL EXPERIENCE that is of far greater value to many Mac users. Who cares about the specs as long as it does what you want it to do, and is a joy to use in the process?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #472 of 521
4/7/09 at 11:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zindako View Post

So windows is cheaper to purchase than mac osx?

I'm not fighting for Windows per say. But yeah I can pick up a copy of vista basic for the same as OSX and I can use it on any PC. Also I can download it in about 2 hours for free . Xp is same situation. I can get it for cheaper than Mac OSX. Linux is free of charge in all it's many flavors.

But essentially when you buy a Mac your paying many hundreds of dollars for the premium of using OSX.

So that being said it's head and shoulders by a few hundred bucks more expensive than MS.
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post #473 of 521
4/7/09 at 11:41am
[QUOTE=mitz;1399674]Firewire is junk but ...

Get real. You just lost all credibility with that. What do you like to use? USB? That is a lame rip-off of Firewire. And it's slower, even when the specs say otherwise. Look at any real world test. The original firewire spec beats USB II hands down, not to mention Firewire 800 which leaves USB II in the dust. USB 1 was only a very quick rip off of the firewire spec that apple PUBLISHED to make it an open standard. After that, Apple was the first to adopt their own tech, ripped of by intel, and put USB in the original iMac. PC users thought that was really dumb, couldn't fathom life without a floppy disk, until a year or two later when all their systems followed suit.

This reminds me of when the DOS boys would argue that parallel ports were better for printing. Apple was using a serial interface. Just like virtually everyting in computing, they criticise it relentlessly when Apple first develops or promotes it, then much later they copy it relentlessly and pretend they were behind it all the time.

So many examples of this, even down to the trackball/trackpad placement on notebooks. Apple was the first to put it in front of the keyboard. It looked weird! Now all notebooks are made this way.

I once heard the CEO of AOL (of all companies) claim that AOL started in 1995. It didn't, it started in the 80's but was Mac only. DOS could not handle it, nor could the prehistoric versions of windows 286/386/win3/win3.1... So it was Mac only at first. He was talking to a group of mostly Windows users. Knows his audience, I thought to myself... so he rewrites history to make it resemble their world... Sad, really.
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post #474 of 521
4/7/09 at 11:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitz View Post

I'm not fighting for Windows per say. But yeah I can pick up a copy of vista basic for the same as OSX and I can use it on any PC. Also I can download it in about 2 hours for free . Xp is same situation. I can get it for cheaper than Mac OSX. Linux is free of charge in all it's many flavors.

But essentially when you buy a Mac your paying many hundreds of dollars for the premium of using OSX.

So that being said it's head and shoulders by a few hundred bucks more expensive than MS.

No, you are paying the same money or sometimes even a bit more for a decently configured PC that looks like it was made in the 80's next to the Mac, and you can't reliably run OS X on it which is hands-down the best OS ever made. Now, you can hack your PC and run OS X, but you have no support for that (kinda like running windows actually, no real support for that, either.)
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post #475 of 521
4/7/09 at 12:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macbrewer View Post

No, you are paying the same money or sometimes even a bit more for a decently configured PC that looks like it was made in the 80's next to the Mac, and you can't reliably run OS X on it which is hands-down the best OS ever made. Now, you can hack your PC and run OS X, but you have no support for that (kinda like running windows actually, no real support for that, either.)

Um, well.... I'm not sure what to say to that. You say that the specs on USB 2 are better but then go ahead and refer to old specs vs old specs. Yes I use 2.0 and had the good fortune of getting my hands on usb 3.0 a month ago along with a engineering mobo that supports it. Anyhow... 2.0 outperforms firewire if its Mobo integrated(no pci slots involved).

I'm not sure that you've seen what you can do with PCs nowadays in builds. Um, they don't look like beige boxes unless you want them to. I have an ITX form factor MOBO running amd that looks nothing like what your accustomed to. Small, silent, aluminum. You are trying to argue from a 1980 perspective and I gotta tell you things have changed in 29 yrs.
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post #476 of 521
4/7/09 at 12:28pm
When possible I use Sata. But honestly.... I made a mistake and was comparing usb 2.0 to firewire 400. USB 2.0 is not as fast as 800.

But it's not like your running an OS off Firewire or USB and most of what you want to do with it will never max out those specs on either.
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post #477 of 521
4/7/09 at 12:35pm
also your hard drive needs to be at a good speed to get there anyhow.

Im being serious with this question because I dont know... how many rpm is the included hd on an imac?
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post #478 of 521
4/7/09 at 12:59pm
Quote:
No they aren't. This is a myth. Apple is not competitively priced. It's just not. Most of you don't seem to know enough about components to know it's not.

And you have the gall to lie like this immediately after being bitch-slapped on your pitiful attempt to build a comparable PC to the high-end iMac?

Amazing...
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post #479 of 521
4/7/09 at 1:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitz View Post

Anyhow... 2.0 outperforms firewire if its Mobo integrated(no pci slots involved).

OMG, WTF? He's an idiot.
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post #480 of 521
4/7/09 at 1:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitz View Post

When possible I use Sata. But honestly.... I made a mistake and was comparing usb 2.0 to firewire 400. USB 2.0 is not as fast as 800.

But it's not like your running an OS off Firewire

Well, you see, there's the thing, mitz: On a Mac, you actually can boot and run your OS off an external FireWire drive. Cool, eh?
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