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Fox News Murders - Page 3

post #81 of 150
One more thread where Fox News is evil.

One more thread where Republicans are evil.

One more thread where the "tolerant left" show they are anything but.

*yawn*
post #82 of 150
OUR governmental system has a healthy check on its ability to tyrannize . . . the danger of your rhetoric is that it separates itself from the actual government and believes that real 'patriots' are those that are against this government, our government, the government of the USA. It mistakes forms of treason as acts of 'patriotism'.

The kind that excuses Alaskan separatism as a legitimate form of national politics - treason as a legitimate form of politics?!

And you don't see anything absurd in favoring the idea of arming 300 million people with deadly automatic weapons simply because you fear unmarked black helicopters? Your paranoia creates fear that legitimizes the need for weapons, which feeds fear which feeds the needs for weapons etc.


It somehow blends its non-citizen-patriotism with all sorts of fear of gays, black Jews etc - but of course none of you would accept that characterization . . . except that it does when it is carried at the fringes, the farms on the side roads where the Terry Nichols of the world hatch 'patriot plans'


I don't know about you but I am an American citizen and I am proud to be part of this system which guarantees liberties . . . but I don't think 'liberty' means not living according to the laws of my country, not disavowing my citizenship, and refusing to pay taxes . . . I am responsible for being a part of my country, I don't have phantasms of Big Brother except where I have found them trying to steal my rights by listening in to my phone calls . . . but when they have I fight back through the system of government of which I am a part.

The over-the-top and incessant post 1989 ranting against Big-Government has created a twisted and distorted idea of what it means to be 'free' - where freedom means some sort of crypto-wild man, who is part of no nation (usually at the fringes -mixed with some idea of race/nation) and is not subject to any laws, since those laws are for the puppets of tyrannical evil Government - oh yeah, usually actually being run by the Elders . . . you know what I'm talking about. Well, face it the rhetoric of talk-radio and Fox news has fed those fringes for years and we have seen the results a number of times in the past - 3 police killed recently, Oklahoma City-168 killed many of them children, shootings in churches.

You might want to kill a fed for David Koresh . . . but you know what?! David Koresh broke the law, he had weapons that were not legal - there is no reason to have the sort of weapons he had. He could have owned plenty of firepower without breaking the law, but he didn't. Would you still rally around him if he had a nuke?
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #83 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensoniq View Post

One more thread where Fox News is evil.

One more thread where Republicans are evil.

One more thread where the "tolerant left" show they are anything but.

*yawn*

Wow, now that's a serious persecution complex!

The word "republican" hasn't appeared in this thread a single time. (Besides in the first post where he merged it with the word idiot). Did you only read the first post? Nobody has posted anything about "conservatives", "the left", or "the right"

Also, a number of liberal people in this thread have come to the defense of Fox "News". If anything, this thread has been remarkably _not_ about Fox in particular.

Please don't drag this thread into partisan bickering, regular ole bickering is good enough.
post #84 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfflam View Post

OUR governmental system has a healthy check on its ability to tyrannize . . . the danger of your rhetoric is that it separates itself from the actual government and believes that real 'patriots' are those that are against this government, our government, the government of the USA. It mistakes forms of treason as acts of 'patriotism'.

The kind that excuses Alaskan separatism as a legitimate form of national politics - treason as a legitimate form of politics?!

And you don't see anything absurd in favoring the idea of arming 300 million people with deadly automatic weapons simply because you fear unmarked black helicopters? Your paranoia creates fear that legitimizes the need for weapons, which feeds fear which feeds the needs for weapons etc.


It somehow blends its non-citizen-patriotism with all sorts of fear of gays, black Jews etc - but of course none of you would accept that characterization . . . except that it does when it is carried at the fringes, the farms on the side roads where the Terry Nichols of the world hatch 'patriot plans'


I don't know about you but I am an American citizen and I am proud to be part of this system which guarantees liberties . . . but I don't think 'liberty' means not living according to the laws of my country, not disavowing my citizenship, and refusing to pay taxes . . . I am responsible for being a part of my country, I don't have phantasms of Big Brother except where I have found them trying to steal my rights by listening in to my phone calls . . . but when they have I fight back through the system of government of which I am a part.

The over-the-top and incessant post 1989 ranting against Big-Government has created a twisted and distorted idea of what it means to be 'free' - where freedom means some sort of crypto-wild man, who is part of no nation (usually at the fringes -mixed with some idea of race/nation) and is not subject to any laws, since those laws are for the puppets of tyrannical evil Government - oh yeah, usually actually being run by the Elders . . . you know what I'm talking about. Well, face it the rhetoric of talk-radio and Fox news has fed those fringes for years and we have seen the results a number of times in the past - 3 police killed recently, Oklahoma City-168 killed many of them children, shootings in churches.

You might want to kill a fed for David Koresh . . . but you know what?! David Koresh broke the law, he had weapons that were not legal - there is no reason to have the sort of weapons he had. He could have owned plenty of firepower without breaking the law, but he didn't. Would you still rally around him if he had a nuke?

Before I even attempt to address your rambling screed would you care to tell us who "you" is? You clearly seem to be addressing someone, but who that is is unclear. You haven't quoted anyone. You don't appear to actually be directly addressing any points by anyone in this thread. Instead you seem to just ramble on about your disagreement with anti-big-government-types (who you have caricatured and stereotyped).
post #85 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfflam View Post

OUR governmental system has a healthy check on its ability to tyrannize . . . the danger of your rhetoric is that it separates itself from the actual government and believes that real 'patriots' are those that are against this government, our government, the government of the USA. It mistakes forms of treason as acts of 'patriotism'.

The kind that excuses Alaskan separatism as a legitimate form of national politics - treason as a legitimate form of politics?!

And you don't see anything absurd in favoring the idea of arming 300 million people with deadly automatic weapons simply because you fear unmarked black helicopters? Your paranoia creates fear that legitimizes the need for weapons, which feeds fear which feeds the needs for weapons etc.


It somehow blends its non-citizen-patriotism with all sorts of fear of gays, black Jews etc - but of course none of you would accept that characterization . . . except that it does when it is carried at the fringes, the farms on the side roads where the Terry Nichols of the world hatch 'patriot plans'


I don't know about you but I am an American citizen and I am proud to be part of this system which guarantees liberties . . . but I don't think 'liberty' means not living according to the laws of my country, not disavowing my citizenship, and refusing to pay taxes . . . I am responsible for being a part of my country, I don't have phantasms of Big Brother except where I have found them trying to steal my rights by listening in to my phone calls . . . but when they have I fight back through the system of government of which I am a part.

The over-the-top and incessant post 1989 ranting against Big-Government has created a twisted and distorted idea of what it means to be 'free' - where freedom means some sort of crypto-wild man, who is part of no nation (usually at the fringes -mixed with some idea of race/nation) and is not subject to any laws, since those laws are for the puppets of tyrannical evil Government - oh yeah, usually actually being run by the Elders . . . you know what I'm talking about. Well, face it the rhetoric of talk-radio and Fox news has fed those fringes for years and we have seen the results a number of times in the past - 3 police killed recently, Oklahoma City-168 killed many of them children, shootings in churches.

You might want to kill a fed for David Koresh . . . but you know what?! David Koresh broke the law, he had weapons that were not legal - there is no reason to have the sort of weapons he had. He could have owned plenty of firepower without breaking the law, but he didn't. Would you still rally around him if he had a nuke?

This thread was originally about the liability of people expressing views on gun-control. I suppose it is amazing that we made it this far without drifting completely into the normal pro vs anti gun debate. Anyway, i'll bite on the bait...

I'm willing to accept random but infrequent citizen on citizen violence as a result of high gun ownership rates.

This seems preferable to the mass killings that result when governments get too much power over the people. Nearly all of the worst atrocities in human history, including most genocides, have been the direct result of all-powerful governments. It would be naive to believe we have seen the last of these atrocities. A well armed populace is best way to ensure the democratization of power.
post #86 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

The Founding Fathers and those who fought for this nation's independence from the tyrannical rule of the British also had what you refer to as an "utter idiotic Fear of Big Government".

Our founding documents are predicated on it.

This is part and parcel of the rhetoric of the far-right, where the fear politics and selfish anti-citizen attitudes that divide you from the rest of the nation are touted as being the 'true patriotic' position.

I know that the 'Founding Fathers' built that skepticism into the system, I thank them for it, that is the best part of our system, that and the citizen's ability to BE part of the system.

But advocating armed revolution because you have to pay taxes is infantile, and you know that is at the core of this, that and a twisted kitsch image of what constitute liberty, some twisted idea of solitary man-of-truth (with big truck) staring into the abyss . . . though it looks strangely made of cheap porcelain and manufactured in China
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #87 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

This thread was originally about the liability of people expressing views on gun-control. I suppose it is amazing that we made it this far without drifting completely into the normal pro vs anti gun debate. Anyway, i'll bite on the bait...

I'm willing to accept random but infrequent citizen on citizen violence as a result of high gun ownership rates.

This seems preferable to the mass killings that result when governments get too much power over the people. Nearly all of the worst atrocities in human history, including most genocides, have been the direct result of all-powerful governments. It would be naive to believe we have seen the last of these atrocities. A well armed populace is best way to ensure the democratization of power.

You must not have read my post. I am not anti-gun.

Try reading before you assume what I am saying.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #88 of 150
The Founding Fathers also lived in a world that existed a long, long time ago. Things change as society develops and the laws regulating that society must change lest they become outdated and meaningless.

I do not think the FF considered a militia to be armed with AK47's, Gatling guns and Uzis with ammo available at your corner store. The weapons of the day were rather different than those of today and it astounds me that many people "cling" to the notion that they are the same. There was a recent shooting incident where the guy shot several dozen rounds in a about a minute; with a typical gun in the days of our FF, you'd be lucky to get off five or even four shots; average was three, and you made much of your own ammo.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #89 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfflam View Post

You must not have read my post. I am not anti-gun.

Try reading before you assume what I am saying.

I think you're confused. I never said you were anti-gun or pro-gun. I simply commented on a couple of the subjects in your post. Perhaps you felt I must be contradicting you merely because I quoted your post.

Wow, this thread is getting jumpy. It's been fun, but I'll duck out to the sidelines and watch the mayhem.
post #90 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

This thread was originally about the liability of people expressing views on gun-control. I suppose it is amazing that we made it this far without drifting completely into the normal pro vs anti gun debate. Anyway, i'll bite on the bait...

I'm willing to accept random but infrequent citizen on citizen violence as a result of high gun ownership rates.

This seems preferable to the mass killings that result when governments get too much power over the people. Nearly all of the worst atrocities in human history, including most genocides, have been the direct result of all-powerful governments. It would be naive to believe we have seen the last of these atrocities. A well armed populace is best way to ensure the democratization of power.

And, you may find it strange, but I am well aware of these Governmentally perpetrated genocides, I know them well and have studied them well. I also know of the attitude that led to some of these and I see a direct correlation between the sort of paranoid fear politics of the far-right and the rise of forms of government that carry out those kinds of acts
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #91 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

Before I even attempt to address your rambling screed would you care to tell us who "you" is? You clearly seem to be addressing someone, but who that is is unclear. You haven't quoted anyone. You don't appear to actually be directly addressing any points by anyone in this thread. Instead you seem to just ramble on about your disagreement with anti-big-government-types (who you have caricatured and stereotyped).

If you think I might be addressing you then I probably am.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #92 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfflam View Post

And, you may find it strange, but I am well aware of these Governmentally perpetrated genocides, I know them well and have studied them well. I also know of the attitude that led to some of these and I see a direct correlation between the sort of paranoid fear politics of the far-right and the rise of forms of government that carry out those kinds of acts

Let me reiterate... I'm not arguing with you.


Edit: There seems to be confusion about who or what you're debating.
post #93 of 150
I am not necessarily debating any single point, I am outlining the contours of the rhetoric of fear that has fueled the politics of the right-wing media since the fall of the Wall - that has turned from the fear of Communism into a rabid fear of any idea of government and seeing in that rhetoric these things:

1 - a reversal of the idea of 'patriotism' where true patriots are those who are anti-American goverment - ant-citizenship (this is the fringe that translated the mainstream media's message -ie: Rush Limbaugh et al)
2 - Politics of Fear - that pushes this absurd constant need for security through deadly weaponry by the bed-side
3 - that this rhetoric has become a sort of legitimating factor in such things as the killing of police in Pittsburgh, OC bombing, killing of Unitarians etc
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #94 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfflam View Post

If you think I might be addressing you then I probably am.

Cute. I have no idea who the hell you're addressing. It looks a lot like a caricature you've fabricated in your mind.


That said, I'll address a couple points you left hanging out there:

Quote:
Originally Posted by pfflam View Post

OUR governmental system has a healthy check on its ability to tyrannize

Personally, I disagree. I used to believe this. I no longer do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pfflam View Post

this system which guarantees liberties

I seriously disagree here. Liberties are being taken away almost daily. Starting with the large scale confiscation of people's property.


Perhaps you should define what your idea of freedom, liberty and tyranny are so that we can be more clear in what you are saying.


Finally you fail to notice your own use of rhetoric to marginalize people as treasonous because they don't share your love and admiration of the U.S. government.
post #95 of 150
Proof in the pudding.


The image of the isolated man of truth

separate from the masses and yet still the 'true patriot' this is the rhetoric, and you've proved my point.

Who will be killed next by the horde upon horde who all think they are being 'free individuals' who will be making a point about their commitment to 'freedom'?!
This kitschy, false and selfish idea of freedom
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #96 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

Cute. I have no idea who the hell you're addressing. It looks a lot like a caricature you've fabricated in your mind.


That said, I'll address a couple points you left hanging out there:



Personally, I disagree. I used to believe this. I no longer do.




I seriously disagree here. Liberties are being taken away almost daily. Starting with the large scale confiscation of people's property.


Perhaps you should define what your idea of freedom, liberty and tyranny are so that we can be more clear in what you are saying.


Finally you fail to notice your own use of rhetoric to marginalize people as treasonous because they don't share your love and admiration of the U.S. government.

Sorry but he's totally right about this. Fear is a tool that's been used well by the Neocons in recent years to get their way. How many terror alerts did we have that didn't amount to anything? I have never owned a gun and feel totally safe without one. The idea that it would solve anything is wrong. Mostly in exchanges with private parties it makes matters worse. Guns are an invention that are in a class by themselves.

You never read about a knife or baseball bat going astray and killing an innocent bystander.

Let me tell you a little story. Back in 1981 my two cousins first and second ( Debbie and John ) were purely due to chance sitting in the same bar called " The Oregon Museum ". A guy broke up with his girlfriend that day and decided to take it out on a bar full of people ( the girlfriend wasn't there ).

He came in and opened up and shot many people. Debbie was sitting at the bar and heard something like a fire cracker. She felt a hot pain in her leg. John was standing behind someone who was watching the gunman. The guy in front of John dove to the floor and John caught it in the head. One of my coworkers was also there that night ( Barb ). She had just started talking to an old boyfriend that she hadn't seen in years. He fell right in her lap.

Debbie's wound wasn't so bad. The exit wound in her leg was about the size of a half dollar. Yes there's a scar.

I went to John's funeral. His mother was never the same as she had lost her husband to a heart attack a few years before. I have fond memories of John.
I used to go over to their farm when I was a kid and play with John and ride their horse " Stormy ".

Barb had to get counseling for seeing her old flame drop dead in her lap.

I was not there. I heard this story on the news and second hand from Debbie, Barb, and bystanders.

This sort of thing is what's wrong with private gun ownership.

If we have a breakdown of goverment and total anarchy a hand gun in my desk drawer won't amount to much.

Here's some photos : http://photos.salemhistory.net/cdm4/...OBOX1=shooting

Yes that's Dick Van Dyke's son. He used to be our DA.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #97 of 150
While I migt agree with JImmac, I am not anti-gun

I am anti-fear rhetoric though

And I am for sensible restrictions on the kind of weapons that one can own, and the people who can own them.
I don't wnat my neighbor buying an M-60 tank then getting sad because the video store was closed and taking out half the hood.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #98 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfflam View Post

While I migt agree with JImmac, I am not anti-gun

I am anti-fear rhetoric though

And I am for sensible restrictions on the kind of weapons that one can own, and the people who can own them.
I don't wnat my neighbor buying an M-60 tank then getting sad because the video store was closed and taking out half the hood.

A gun's a tool like anything else. It's the person that uses it that changes what it does. If everyone was totally sane or responsible I wouldn't have anything against it either.

I've even been out on a range and fired many different types. Yes as a sport where nothing alive is involved I even find it fun. However it's still way too easy for anyone to aquire one.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #99 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfflam View Post

I am anti-fear rhetoric though

Are you SURE you're anti fear rhetoric? Because not two sentences later you wrote this:

Quote:
I don't wnat my neighbor buying an M-60 tank then getting sad because the video store was closed and taking out half the hood.

Of the millions of responsible, law abiding gun owners, you're holding up these specific examples of nutcases with guns, implying that all gun owners are such or will eventually become so. This is simply not true.

You trust the government more than your neighbor. I trust my neighbor more than the government. Is that an accurate assessment?

I used to live in Brazil, where it is illegal to own guns. Naturally, anyone who wants a gun in Brazil can easily obtain one.

Crime is prevalent in the larger cities. Murder rates in Rio de Janeiro are in excess of 40 per 100,000 and much higher in some areas called "favelas"--poverty-stricken, crime-ridden areas controlled by heavily armed drug lords.

The government is unable or unwilling (sometimes both) to stop them, and the law-abiding citizens of Brazil who do not own guns are defenseless.

There are an estimated 65 million gun owners (owning more than 200 million firearms) in America. About every other house in the U.S. has a firearm.

I would argue that these 65 million gun owners are a greater deterrent to crime than our government could ever be.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #100 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

You trust the government more than your neighbor. I trust my neighbor more than the government. Is that an accurate assesment?

I like that phrasing. It summarizes the opposing viewpoints in an unbiased manner.

In my mind, neither viewpoint is inherently more rooted in fear-rhetoric than than the other.
post #101 of 150
I would expect simplistic and facile dichotomies from people who's real agenda is the spread of fear in order to bolster their sense of identity and affiliation with perceived 'righteousness'

So what seems like a truthful turn pf phrase, but is in reality a trite and facile reduction of real complexity into black and white replaces the need to acknowledge complexity - but what else is new?!

I trust my neighbor just fine, and I don't care if he has a gun, maybe I do to, but I am part of my country and will do what I can to keep in it and support it when it seems reasonable - and I am not such a radically individuated being that I will not be a part of the system that I am a part of through self-deluded lies about 'freedom' and liberty and avoid paying taxes thereby

What I don't trust are 'militias' -especially when they get grouped together - I fear the day when the police and military are completely privatized by extremenutjobs and grouped under a rubric like Backwater and come to my house because they thnk I am a commie.
And yet I am not too afraid that that will become a reality - I don't live in fear
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #102 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

Really? The fear (and distrust) of big government is idiotic? Utterly idiotic? Really? And it's dangerous too?

Interesting.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8000763.stm
Quote:
America could be facing a surge in right-wing extremism, according to a new US government report.

The Department of Homeland Security study says the election of America's first black president and the economic slump has helped racist groups recruit.
But the report says no specific attacks are being planned by extremists.

Some moderate conservatives fear the administration could use the report as an excuse to tighten gun laws and restrict freedom of speech.

Interesting.
post #103 of 150
And naturally the right-wing blogosphere sees this report as proof of their fear, since it was issued by the Government.

The twisted logic of conspiracy fear needs only a whisp in the clouds to find reason to start making bombs.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #104 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfflam View Post

I would expect simplistic and facile dichotomies from people who's real agenda is the spread of fear in order to bolster their sense of identity and affiliation with perceived 'righteousness'

So what seems like a truthful turn pf phrase, but is in reality a trite and facile reduction of real complexity into black and white replaces the need to acknowledge complexity - but what else is new?!

I trust my neighbor just fine, and I don't care if he has a gun, maybe I do to, but I am part of my country and will do what I can to keep in it and support it when it seems reasonable - and I am not such a radically individuated being that I will not be a part of the system that I am a part of through self-deluded lies about 'freedom' and liberty and avoid paying taxes thereby

What I don't trust are 'militias' -especially when they get grouped together - I fear the day when the police and military are completely privatized by extremenutjobs and grouped under a rubric like Backwater and come to my house because they thnk I am a commie.
And yet I am not too afraid that that will become a reality - I don't live in fear

Which agenda of facile dichotomy are you railing against with your not such radically individuated being?
post #105 of 150
oh wait . . . the whisps in the clouds is one of their big new concerns

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemtra...spiracy_theory

I'd link to a page about them but this whole sort of thinking is dangerous enough
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #106 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

Which agenda of facile dichotomy are you railing against with your not such radically individuated being?

This one:
Quote:
You trust the government more than your neighbor. I trust my neighbor more than the government.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #107 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfflam View Post

This one:

Really, I quoted your post because of the excellent vocabulary. It was almost poetic. No really, I enjoyed reading it.

But I disagree that "who do you trust more?" is a false dichotomy. When looking at which people in the world should have guns, there isn't that many categories. Certainly, "the government" could be divided so that the military is a different category. Or perhaps neighbors could be divided into categories based upon who has committed what type of crime. Each of those categorization schemes is valuable for analyzing the moral dilemma in a different way.

In this case, two categories were used, the government, and the people ("neighbor"). This allows discussion of the balance of power between the government and the governed. If you are of the mindset that an armed populace prevents tyranny, it is a valid binary comparison to make when discussing gun control. The comparison of "who do you trust more?" addresses the preference for who to entrust power to. Each choice comes with some rather obvious tradeoffs in regard to the type and quantity of violence that is totaled up through the annals of history.

Believe it or not, I'm in agreement with most of the rest of your rant. (which I'll try not to interpret as directed toward me) I'm about as anti the-culture-of-fear as you can get.
post #108 of 150
Nice post, dfiler.

Fear is a tactic used on both sides of the aisle, unfortunately. It is what our government has been using for quite some time now to attempt to illicit the support of the masses.

For example:

We were essentially told--first by "W" and then by Obama--that the economy was in danger of imminent collapse unless Congress passed these hastily thrown together, pork-laden, earmark infested, and I dare say unconstitutional "economic stimulus" spending bills.

I wonder how many of our legislators actually read the bills in their entirety before voting on them.

How many Americans have read them?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #109 of 150
Look at the way your spokesmen distort the truth in order to build support, and specifically a kind of support that will translate into violence . . . and that is not just fear mongering, based on the obvious twists and turns of the paranoid logic at the fringes that feeds off of the deliberate distortions by this rabid news organization you can bet we will see blood:

Scarborough Lies in order to Build more fear


Quote:
SCARBOROUGH: This is scary.

BRZEZINSKI: This is --

SCARBOROUGH: This is scary.

BRZEZINSKI: -- spooky. While the report did not cite any impeding attack or name specific groups, it suggested military veterans could be particularly vulnerable to recruitment.

SCARBOROUGH: So -- so, let me --

BARNICLE: Dude, what the --

BRZEZINSKI: What?

SCARBOROUGH: So -- so, they have -- Janet Napolitano and her department have put out a report in the Obama administration, specifically warning that veterans returning home from war, are to be feared -- that they could be right-wing extremists that want to launch terror attacks on America. This, of course, coming at a time when we have a war on our southern border, when we have wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and threats of terrorism.

And Janet Napolitano, the Department of Homeland Security, and Barack Obama are concerned about veterans coming home from war --

BRZEZINSKI: Yeah.

SCARBOROUGH: -- and becoming right-wing extremists.

BRZEZINSKI: I want more --

SCARBOROUGH: This, of course, is the same administration, Mike Barnicle -- and I'm just stunned the media didn't say more about this. And I heard about this up at West Point, from the kids up there that were talking about it.

They were stunned that the Obama administration told veterans coming back from war, who had injuries, "You're going to have to take care of that yourself. Take it up with a third-party insurer."

BARNICLE: I've not heard that.

SCARBOROUGH: Oh, they did. They did.

BRZEZINSKI: I'm going to get a full writethru and --

SCARBOROUGH: Thank God, Paul Rikoff, who went over to the White House and asked the president what was going through his mind.

BARNICLE: But on this report, where you just read that news brief about it, I mean, off the top of it -- and I've not seen anything about this today --

BRZEZINSKI: Yeah, I haven't --

BARNICLE: -- in the newspapers -- off the top of it, it seems as if they're issuing a report basically warning us about returning Iraqi --

SCARBOROUGH: Veterans.

BARNICLE: -- and Afghan war veterans who might come back and do what? Say they don't agree with the war? What?

SCARBOROUGH: Blow up the -- blow it up. Blow up America. Kill people because they might --

BRZEZINSKI: Exploiting fears about the economy and the election of the first black president.

SCAROBOROUGH: Because the economy is bad and we have a black president, veterans may kill --

BRZEZINSKI: We'll talk more. I'm going to get a full writethru and print it out over here.

SCARBOROUGH: -- come back and kill people. It is stunning. Then I just ask this question to my Democratic friends out there -- and I'm serious about this -- what would you have said if George Bush, Karl Rove, and the head of Homeland Security had issued a report warning about left-wing radicals wanting to blow up America? Are -- you know, it's -- it is frightening.

[...]

SCARBOROUGH: You didn't put in there the part about how Janet Napolitano is going to follow --

BRZEZINSKI: I know. We haven't -- the top of the hour.

SCARBOROUGH: -- the Obama administration's orders --

BRZEZINSKI: 'Cause that's an amazing story.

SCARBOROUGH: -- to invade Utah. That's coming next.

BRZEZINSKI: That's not part of the story, but it's an amazing story.

SCARBOROUGH: But they're -- they're going to -- they're going after conservatives first. They're targeting soldiers for surveillance, according to this document, when they come home from war. I suspect an invasion of Salt Lake City is not far behind.

BRZEZINSKI: OK, that might be pushing it a little far, but it is an amazing story.

SCARBOROUGH: The second -- is the second, friends, you see the salt flats rumbling, OK, it's time to run to Vegas. They'll leave Vegas alone.

This man is extremely dangerous in his none stop glib lies and distortions, no wonder his name was found among lists made by recent killers.


And how completely appropriate that I start talking about what I notice, the rise in hate and then this report, authored by the Bush Administration and following a similar report on Left-wing extremists, says the same thing.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #110 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfflam View Post

Look at the way your spokesmen distort the truth in order to build support, and specifically a kind of support that will translate into violence . . .

Who's spokesmen?

It comes across like you're accusing every reader of this thread, which hopefully isn't the intention.
post #111 of 150
Oh oh... someone is catching on.

Some people believe that politics is personal and thus if you disagree, personal attacks are fine since they are really only political attacks.

One thing I always find very interesting about threads like these though is how weak-minded people with a leftist perspective must be.

My thoughts are my own and when I do something with my hands it will be driven by my own thoughts and not by the thoughts of others. Yet here is an entire group declaring that certain speech must be silenced due to certain people out there being unable to control themselves when hearing it.

Last I checked it was France and Socialists who were suddenly kidnapping business owners and bosses. Seems we have a lot of anger where people were having their houses staked out and death threats being made due not due to war crimes but due to financial bonuses.

It seems the left is very preoccupied with the effects of speech on weak minds. To me, it is very telling about the state of their own mind.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #112 of 150
That's a pretty broad brush you're painting all leftists with.

Take heart though it is doubtful that most people with leftist perspectives exhibit the extreme views that you're rightfully criticizing.
post #113 of 150
I know, but I'm having some fun. I mean when the views one holds are being labeled hateful, destructive, violent, etc. a little quip about weak minds releases a bit of steam. It is clear the premise of this thread is a bit of a media meme being pushed forward. It manifests itself in weird ways too. Take a look at this USAToday article.

Now doing the things that family is doing, going to the library, living on one income, choosing family time over the chasing of debt and consumption, well most of us would call such things frugal.

However in this age where people are violent for returning from a war, or listening to a news source, or for being registered with a major political party, well they are now "economic survivalists."

Why even defending yourself becomes a sign of "aggression." Just look at all those "teabaggers" out there.

So weak-minded, it is like tossing a pea at someone shooting a cannon but I do have to let my snark run to 11 occasionally.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #114 of 150
I think you broke my Snark-o-meter, trumptman!

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #115 of 150
Ah but guys there's still this :

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...s-up-on-taxes/

Quote:
Americans give Obama thumbs up on taxes


Quote:
A national Gallup poll conducted last week finds that 48 percent of Americans say the amount of federal income taxes they pay is about right. That's two points higher than the forty-six percent of those questioned who felt that the taxes they pay were too high. It's also the most positive assessment on taxes that Gallup's measured in six years.

So some must be happy about something. I figured if everyone else could be this far off topic so could I.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #116 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Ah but guys there's still this :

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...s-up-on-taxes/

So some must be happy about something. I figured if everyone else could be this far off topic so could I.

No problem and thanks for the Republican support.

See, as so many love to point out, Obama hasn't been in office that long and so all the tax rates people are paying are rates left over from BUSH. Obama has passed some legislation but has declared he will let the Bush tax rates expire and then pass a gigantic energy tax via his cap and trade system.

These haven't happened yet but when they do, I'd like to see the poll numbers.

Also I wonder how many of that group that feel like they are paying the right amount live in low tax red states versus high tax blue states. The results are not broken down so we don't know.

California is heading toward a possible 10% sales tax. Would you be happy about that? Would you be happy at only 9.5-9.75% sales tax?

I'm not.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #117 of 150
Quote:
Most of the movement in the Gallup poll came among people who make less than $75,000 a year," says CNN Polling Director Keating Holland. "A majority of people in that category say their taxes are not too high, and they are the ones that the Obama administration has been targeting with their tax policy and their message on taxes. Maybe that message is being heard."

Well some breakdown. Just not geographical.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #118 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Ah but guys there's still this :

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...s-up-on-taxes/






So some must be happy about something. I figured if everyone else could be this far off topic so could I.

Those approval lines appear to correlate fairly closely to people that are net tax recipients.

Households in the lowest quintile of income received roughly $8.21 in federal, state and local government spending for every dollar of taxes paid in 2004, while households in the middle quintile received $1.30, and households in the top quintile received $0.41.
post #119 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

Those approval lines appear to correlate fairly closely to people that are net tax recipients.

Households in the lowest quintile of income received roughly $8.21 in federal, state and local government spending for every dollar of taxes paid in 2004, while households in the middle quintile received $1.30, and households in the top quintile received $0.41.

2004? And your point is?

Anyway the facts are the middleclass of america ( that's most of the people ) are tired of carrying the burden for the rich who don't even feel it when they have to pay. It's just numbers on a balance sheet.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #120 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

2004? And your point is?

The point is that the feeling that taxes are about right is quite likely to strongly correlate with those that receive net benefits (from other tax payers). In other words, I'm mostly likely to think my taxes are just fine if I'm getting more tax-funded benefits (funded by other people's taxes) than I'm paying on net.
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