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Apple places unusual flash memory order - Page 2

post #41 of 129
4/9/09 at 11:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

An old Duke and Duke trick - corner the market.

I didn't know they had Apple Juice (or medicated Koolaid for Teckstud) along with Frozen Concentrated Orange Juice on the stock exchange.

Feeling good Billy Ray!
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post #42 of 129
4/9/09 at 11:59am
Are planning to replace the current crappy remote with something that makes more sense and replaces my URC? I'd be the first one to buy one.
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post #43 of 129
4/9/09 at 12:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgonzale View Post

...Not everyone wants a crappy camera jammed into an ipod. ...

I think you'll find these worlds are converging.

It's likely that the camera included in the next iPhone/iPod will be as good as the average point and shoot "digi-cam" and include a comparable video camera as well. People don't want to buy a four hundred dollar camera and drag it around with them anymore when it will be out of date and broken in a year or two anyway.

Putting such a thing in your mobile (which is updated usually on the same schedule), sounds like a perfect solution to me.
In Windows, a window can be a document, it can be an application, or it can be a window that contains other documents or applications. Theres just no consistency. Its just a big grab bag of monkey...
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In Windows, a window can be a document, it can be an application, or it can be a window that contains other documents or applications. Theres just no consistency. Its just a big grab bag of monkey...
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post #44 of 129
4/9/09 at 12:15pm
I think what's more interesting about this story is why didn't they report it as 1gb NAND chips, rather they reported as 8gb NAND chips in groups of 8.... Or at least the backpeddle has you believe.

Certain thoughts flow through my head... Using them in AE to hold OS X Thin would turn it into more of a server and increase speeds across the network. I nice little headless server for printers and storage... Maybe something extra like iMedia server...

System cache. The oh-so talked about in circles of using nand flash for the system to store anything and everything. From L3 cache to boot bits and even VM/Page files. Its cheap, no heat, very fast and would work well when tied to USB 3.0.

And the list goes on and on.

BTW: iPhone, iPod are getting a 5mp camera with more complex cmos that gives 720p at 30fps with low lux to boot.
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post #45 of 129
4/9/09 at 12:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

I think you'll find these worlds are converging.

It's likely that the camera included in the next iPhone/iPod will be as good as the average point and shoot "digi-cam" and include a comparable video camera as well. People don't want to buy a four hundred dollar camera and drag it around with them anymore when it will be out of date and broken in a year or two anyway.

Putting such a thing in your mobile (which is updated usually on the same schedule), sounds like a perfect solution to me.

Regardlessof how good the camera is for a cellphone, which i doubt will come close to the average Nokia is actual print quality, the new API for the 30-pin connector will allow for some some very high-end camera attachments for the iPhone and Touch. Should someone choose to do it.

Unless such an attachment is very sleek and powerful, I'd prefer to have to a new standalone camera with BT so it can grab and auto insert GeoLocation into each pic as it's taken via the iPhone.
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post #46 of 129
4/9/09 at 12:17pm
If there is a 32 gb chip in the 4 gb nano, why isn't it a 32 gb nano? If there is a 128 gb chip in the 16 gb iphone why isn't it a 128gb iphone?
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post #47 of 129
4/9/09 at 12:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by uyman View Post

If there is a 32 gb chip in the 4 gb nano, why isn't it a 32 gb nano? If there is a 128 gb chip in the 16 gb iphone why isn't it a 128gb iphone?

You aren't using your capitals. An uppercase 'B' means bytes and a lowercase 'b' means bits. I'm sure you know that there are 8 bits per one byte. So 128Gb equals 16GB, 32Gb equals 4GB, and so on.

While they use bytes on the retail end to describe capacity, the production side is almost always bits.


PS: There is also the seldom used IEC standard of Gibibyte (GiB) Mebibyte (MiB) to describe capacity in BASE-2. I wish this was the common usage as the HDD companies advertise their capacities using the SI standard of BASE-10, which is the exact same verbage as the common JEDEC standard of BASE-2 which makes people wonder why their 80GB HDD is only ~74GB, for example.
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post #48 of 129
4/9/09 at 12:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by uyman View Post

If there is a 32 gb chip in the 4 gb nano, why isn't it a 32 gb nano? If there is a 128 gb chip in the 16 gb iphone why isn't it a 128gb iphone?

Gb≠GB

EDIT: Like he said.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #49 of 129
4/9/09 at 12:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by aga View Post

It's for the next release of the OS, Snow Leopard. They are Shipping it on the Cheap NAND.

Now you know.

This could certainly be the case if the Flash was USB enabled. With Snow Leopard going on a diet it could easily fit as could some of the apps. The best thing Apple could do is to make the core OS install separate from the app installs. But unfortunately not everything, the SDK for example doesn't fit. So I can't see Apple moving whole hog to software distribution on this sized device.

For a future hand held device I could see them using NOR flash for execute in place storage of the OS and critical apps. That has the potential to save a lot of RAM space. Nice thought but unfortunately I've seen nothing to support this and the article is about NAND flash anyways.

About that article, how about this: it is bogus. That is there is a high likely hood that some of the data points are just wrong. Everyone is taking the reporting as being accurate but does it make sense with Apples product line up and needs? I'd say no as every device they currently have has moved beyond that density and it isn't a suitable density for future products. This is why I see software distribution as the only possibility.
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post #50 of 129
4/9/09 at 12:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Regardlessof how good the camera is for a cellphone, which i doubt will come close to the average Nokia is actual print quality, the new API for the 30-pin connector will allow for some some very high-end camera attachments for the iPhone and Touch. Should someone choose to do it.

Unless such an attachment is very sleek and powerful, I'd prefer to have to a new standalone camera with BT so it can grab and auto insert GeoLocation into each pic as it's taken via the iPhone.

Maybe Apple will take their rumored 5MP parts and big pile of NAND chips and make just
the camera attachment you imagine. (It would sure be nice for an iPod touch)
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post #51 of 129
4/9/09 at 12:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

This could certainly be the case if the Flash was USB enabled. With Snow Leopard going on a diet it could easily fit as could some of the apps. The best thing Apple could do is to make the core OS install separate from the app installs. But unfortunately not everything, the SDK for example doesn't fit. So I can't see Apple moving whole hog to software distribution on this sized device.

Apple may not ship the SDK on Snow Leopard. They don't seem to mind developers DLing a new multi-GB files every month and they are moving all those GBs of print drivers to online only access. This would easily jibe with moving Snow Leopard to USB flash sticks.

I understand the desire to make Snow Leopard smaller as an install, but to remove bulky print drivers that have to be installed via an internet connection only makes sense if your focus is making the actual install disc considerably smaller.

They haven't included the iWork trial since removing the Office for Mac test drive, so the only thing that would be keeping the install bulky is iLife, as I can't see them separating the various languages and fonts from the final build as that seems to be too much of a step backwards to have Windows-like builds for different countries.
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post #52 of 129
4/9/09 at 12:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jinx101 View Post

I don't know what they're making or what it costs but I HAVE to have it! I'm already giving this product two thumbs up, it's far more sheek and elegant than anything the competitors have come out with and it's so easy to use, "it just works".

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post #53 of 129
4/9/09 at 12:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

I think you'll find these worlds are converging.

It's likely that the camera included in the next iPhone/iPod will be as good as the average point and shoot "digi-cam" and include a comparable video camera as well. People don't want to buy a four hundred dollar camera and drag it around with them anymore when it will be out of date and broken in a year or two anyway.

Putting such a thing in your mobile (which is updated usually on the same schedule), sounds like a perfect solution to me.

Wow- Apple is becoming the new SONY day by day. No wonder their computers are getting suckier day by day.
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post #54 of 129
4/9/09 at 12:53pm
This is starting to feel like Apple is gettin ready to spring something on us that will make even a 3rd generation iphone seem boring.
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post #55 of 129
4/9/09 at 1:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Wow- Apple is becoming the new SONY day by day. No wonder their computers are getting suckier day by day.

So, apparently, once you "go Mac" you in fact begin to seriously consider "going back", yes? Please?
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post #56 of 129
4/9/09 at 1:44pm
Nothing to surprising about the order.

from July 2008
http://www.engadget.com/2008/07/02/a...ndustry-starv/

From today
http://www.engadget.com/2009/04/09/a/

Edit: Nothing too surprising about the order.
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post #57 of 129
4/9/09 at 1:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

So, apparently, once you "go Mac" you in fact begin to seriously consider "going back", yes? Please?


yuk yuk yuk
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post #58 of 129
4/9/09 at 1:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTMP View Post

Nothing to surprising about the order.

from July 2008
http://www.engadget.com/2008/07/02/a...ndustry-starv/

From today
http://www.engadget.com/2009/04/09/a/

Welcome to AI! I think your post pretty much closes any speculation about the use of these chips.
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post #59 of 129
4/9/09 at 1:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by YodaMac View Post

So maybe Apple is just buying them up cause a shortage for everyone else...

...is that illegal?

It's illegal, unless Apple does it. Then it's ok.
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post #60 of 129
4/9/09 at 1:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTMP View Post

Nothing to surprising about the order.

from July 2008
http://www.engadget.com/2008/07/02/a...ndustry-starv/

From today
http://www.engadget.com/2009/04/09/a/

It is a pretty good chance that the flash will be used for that.
But wasn't there some info about the chips having a different density or something along those lines?
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post #61 of 129
4/9/09 at 1:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by iBill View Post

It's illegal, unless Apple does it. Then it's ok.


Is it illegal if it is for legitimate usage?
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post #62 of 129
4/9/09 at 2:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

It's likely that the camera included in the next iPhone/iPod will be as good as the average point and shoot "digi-cam" and include a comparable video camera as well. People don't want to buy a four hundred dollar camera and drag it around with them anymore when it will be out of date and broken in a year or two anyway.

Putting such a thing in your mobile (which is updated usually on the same schedule), sounds like a perfect solution to me.

Nah. It will take a while before phone cams get as good as even some of the worst compacts are now.

The cheapest 8 MP 3x optical zoom cameras with a much better flash than a phone cam normally has and a removable SD card slot will set you back $99. Samsung has an 8.3 MP model that sells for that, and others have comparable models.

It's not likely that a phone camera that isn't much more bulky than a phone would come close to the IQ that those cameras already have.
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post #63 of 129
4/9/09 at 2:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissionGrey View Post

But wasn't there some info about the chips having a different density or something along those lines?

I see no evidence of a different, much less a lower density. In fact, I see nothing about the chip densities at all, just the storage capacity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissionGrey View Post

Is it illegal if it is for legitimate usage?

It would illegal if Apple was artificially trying to affect the market price of NAND, but that thing usually occurs from the supplier's end. However, as LTMP has pointed out this is on 2x the NAND bought 10 months ago so I don't think any shady is going in.

If there is a crime it using that Impact font on this forum.
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post #64 of 129
4/9/09 at 2:06pm
I'm betting that the chips will be an integral part of the Mac OS tying the system to real Apple hardware. Effectively locking out the would-be cloners.
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post #65 of 129
4/9/09 at 2:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Wow- Apple is becoming the new SONY day by day. No wonder their computers are getting suckier day by day.

I hope you're not using his statement as a fact.
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post #66 of 129
4/9/09 at 2:08pm
If there is a crime it using that Veranda font on this forum. [/QUOTE]

hahaha, you got me.
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post #67 of 129
4/9/09 at 2:08pm
the iphone answering machine! just dock your iphone into the new apple iphone answering machine when you're at home but don't want to answer calls. upon receiving a call, the iphone will automatically connect with the iphone answering machine, which will relay a pre-recorded outgoing message (outgoing messages available from the itunes store for only $2.99 each) and then allow the caller to leave a message (which is automatically uploaded to your .mac account, and can be retrieved from the itunes store for only $0.99 per message). available in white, black, gold, and irridescent greenish.
>>< drow ><<
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>>< drow ><<
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post #68 of 129
4/9/09 at 2:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissionGrey View Post

Is it illegal if it is for legitimate usage?

It's only illegal if it can be shown that Apple and its partners conspired to drive prices up through creating an artificial shortage.
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post #69 of 129
4/9/09 at 2:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Nah. It will take a while before phone cams get as good as even some of the worst compacts are now.

The cheapest 8 MP 3x optical zoom cameras with a much better flash than a phone cam normally has and a removable SD card slot will set you back $99. Samsung has an 8.3 MP model that sells for that, and others have comparable models.

It's not likely that a phone camera that isn't much more bulky than a phone would come close to the IQ that those cameras already have.

I agree, the on phone cameras are great for pictures of the moment that people upload to myspace, facebook, flickr, and other network type things. (granted flikr is more serious pictures) I have a nikon d300, I love it. with current technology no phone camera will reach the quality. And phone cameras only take pictures in jpg, high-end cameras can shot in RAW which is an amazing benefit.
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post #70 of 129
4/9/09 at 2:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It's only illegal if it can be shown that Apple and its partners conspired to drive prices up through creating an artificial shortage.

And that makes complete sense.
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post #71 of 129
4/9/09 at 2:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Apple may not ship the SDK on Snow Leopard. They don't seem to mind developers DLing a new multi-GB files every month and they are moving all those GBs of print drivers to online only access. This would easily jibe with moving Snow Leopard to USB flash sticks.

Sadly this is true. At least the part about constant SDK updates.
Quote:

I understand the desire to make Snow Leopard smaller as an install, but to remove bulky print drivers that have to be installed via an internet connection only makes sense if your focus is making the actual install disc considerably smaller.

With print drivers I see a different motivation. That would be keeping the drivers up to date at install time. From my standpoint the print drivers are in many cases outdated the day they ship with the new OS. Thus it makes sense for Apple to implement a system to keep these things up to date at install time.

Actually I see Apple moving to something similar to what we have on Linux, that is package installers that allow you to easily keep dependencies in check while updating key components. I doubt that Apple will go to the fine grained approach seen on Linux but for well partitioned subsystems like printing I could see it working. That is Software Update becomes a bit like a package manager.
Quote:

They haven't included the iWork trial since removing the Office for Mac test drive, so the only thing that would be keeping the install bulky is iLife, as I can't see them separating the various languages and fonts from the final build as that seems to be too much of a step backwards to have Windows-like builds for different countries.

Bulky yes but ideally you would want iLife installation separated from the system install. Even then I don't see it fitting on 1GB of Flash.

In any event the mystery remains. Right now I suspect that the paper simply got some information wrong or where supplied with disinformation. There is no doubt about Apples impact on the Flash market, but they are not in the habit of implementing old technology either. We will wait and see.


Dave
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post #72 of 129
4/9/09 at 2:38pm
The current iPhone uses 512 MB dedicated memory for the OS and for Apps. The new iPhone 3.0 will use 1GB chips for this purpose.

Do I get a prize for stating the obvious?
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post #73 of 129
4/9/09 at 2:38pm
I don't think we're at the point yet, if we will ever be, where costs for software distribution would be cheaper for Apple using flash than cheap plastics disks.

We see this with HDDs as well. The prices don't keep getting cheaper. At some point it's too cheap to manufacture, and the size is dropped. Then the next larger size is slotted into that price niche.

If chips get too cheap, production is either dropped, or prices actually move back up as the newer larger sizes become popular.

It costs about $0.50 to produce a DVD with software, and silkscreened label. Throw in another .5 cents for a sleeve, and you're done.

When will 8.7 GB flash be able to match that?
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post #74 of 129
4/9/09 at 2:53pm
it's not Iphone/Ipod etc

Apple is planning to release SnowLeopard on USB memory stick!

So all portables like Air or New tablet can be installed without DVD!

In fact most devices thse days support usb.. why bother with discs anymore?
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post #75 of 129
4/9/09 at 2:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kriskl View Post

it's not Iphone/Ipod etc

Apple is planning to release SnowLeopard on USB memory stick!

So all portables like Air or New tablet can be installed without DVD!

In fact most devices thse days support usb.. why bother with discs anymore?

So Apple's going to take a ubiquitous DVD ROM disc which costs $.10 to duplicate in the millions and move to 1GB of NAND technology that holds 4x less data at likely 40x the cost.

It doesn't pass the "dollars and sense" test.
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post #76 of 129
4/9/09 at 3:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I don't think we're at the point yet, if we will ever be, where costs for software distribution would be cheaper for Apple using flash than cheap plastics disks.

We see this with HDDs as well. The prices don't keep getting cheaper. At some point it's too cheap to manufacture, and the size is dropped. Then the next larger size is slotted into that price niche.

If chips get too cheap, production is either dropped, or prices actually move back up as the newer larger sizes become popular.

It costs about $0.50 to produce a DVD with software, and silkscreened label. Throw in another .5 cents for a sleeve, and you're done.

When will 8.7 GB flash be able to match that?

That is optical disc to 8GB flash stick, and that price will never be matched. Also, aren't there licensing fees associated with including a USB connector on a device that will bring up the price even more?

However, if you include the cost saved from not including an optical drive you have a USB flash install that is cheaper than an optical drive and optical disc shipped. But you also have tremendous savings of space in your notebook chassis and a way to protect your OS a little more from being installed on non-Mac HW as your Mac and flash drive can do a handshake better than the a read-only disc.

That said, I think LTMP has the right answer about this chip purchase.
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post #77 of 129
4/9/09 at 3:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

So Apple's going to take a ubiquitous DVD ROM disc which costs $.10 to duplicate in the millions and move to 1GB of NAND technology that holds 4x less data at likely 40x the cost.

It doesn't pass the "dollars and sense" test.

Agreed. This purchase has to be product related, not operations related.
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post #78 of 129
4/9/09 at 3:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

That is optical disc to 8GB flash stick. Aren't there licensing fees associated with including a USB connector on a device? However, if you include the cost saved from the optical drive you have a Usb flash install that is cheaper than an optical drive and optical disc. But you also have tremendous savings of space in your notebook chassis and a way to protect your OS a little more from being installed on non-Mac HW as your Mac and flash drive can do a handshake better than the a read-only disc.

That said, I think LTMP has the right answer about this chip purchase.

I don't believe this at all.

It will cost much more to do it this way.

Very few computers won't have an optical drive. Some small laptops won't, though even them more people complain about that fact than are happy with it.

I think software is a pretty far out concept. Internet delivery will become even more ubiquitous that it even is now.

You still have to SEND that stick to people. As opposed to getting the download anywhere you may be, even on vacation.

Well, the iPod/phone connection is the most obvious. I can't understand why anyone would even think of anything else, other than that ever so slightly possible netbook-like thingie that Apple has supposedly bought all those 10" screens for.
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post #79 of 129
4/9/09 at 3:12pm
I'm getting a lot of "database error" pages on the site today.

Anyone else?
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post #80 of 129
4/9/09 at 3:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Well, the iPod/phone connection is the most obvious. I can't understand why anyone would even think of anything else, other than that ever so slightly possible netbook-like thingie that Apple has supposedly bought all those 10" screens for.

I agree, as previously stated, but I can't stress enough how happy I will be when that useless component taking so much space in my MB and using up an entire side of port real estate is gone. I don't even burn discs to install Snow Leopard for testing. Apple's own seed notes walk you through a simple partition-to-partition installation. Without that option I wouldn't be wasting my time and money burning DL-DVDs so I could test the software.

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