Microsoft pays for inaccurate "Apple Tax" study, issues 3rd TV ad - Page 5

Trying to make Vaio's seem like cheap computers compared to Macs is laughable. If you were to say Dell, yeah their comptuers are cheaper than Macs, HP too, but Vaio's, don't make me laugh. The same Sony charging 900 dollars for a netbook and you want to make them seem like they are selling cheap computers even in relation to Macs.

One of the most recent iPhone ads shows an iPhone being used by a person with a small
business entering a credit card purchase into their iPhone. The app might not be adequate
for use in an Apple store, but it shows that Apple is not against the concept.

http://movies.apple.com/media/us/iph...06_848x480.mov

Just a quick question: you do realize that packing too many pixels into too small of a screens makes things invariably harder to see, right?

Apparently John Gruber and myself are the only people, who get Apple (outside of Apple).

I can agree to there being a price premium. I'd like to see the price come down for particular models like the Mac Book and mini.

We all know RAM can boost the processing speed, but how fast do some people need? Casual Mac users who do word processing and browse the internet don't necessarily need 2GB of RAM. Its not too labor intensive. Hence, Apple offers what they feel a user would need, not what the PC market reflects. Sure you can buy a Hyundai, but Mercedes drive infinitely better. So if you have the option, why would you buy a Hyundai?

You say Apple isn't playing fair, but amazingly as a company they are seeing their stock price rise in a recession, have the best smartphone in the world, have the world's most popular mp3 player in multiple categories and have a legion of smart developers and users spurring their financial health because they believe (and apparently have success) with Macs. Hype has to be driven by satisfaction and that is something Windows users are just gonna never have.

While I get your point about fanbois, I think you're overdoing it substantially. Bank of America, for one, does not use Windows, it uses a modified Linux set-up. Like most creditors, however, several of its severs are based of of either Unix or OS X.

And what are you talking about with power plants? Other than front end operations, I've never seen a power plant running anything other than Linux (and an archaic version, at that). The U.S. government doesn't make a habit of employing operating systems that are used in the consumer sphere and thereby have alot of known faults.

Of the many implications of a commercial like this, the most true one is that you have more options to chose from when getting a Windows-based machine. Recently, Apple has been restructuring its product line to accommodate more users but it can't and isn't trying to compete on options. If you want a Mac laptop, there are 3 choices. Whether analyst or commercial studies properly tally up all the costs of ownership is irrelevant to this point. If your budget is X and you've decided you want a laptop or a desktop, there is usually only one Apple system that meets your needs. If you don't like the choices Apple made in the design of that one option or it doesn't fit your needs, you're out of luck. On the one hand, that situation of reduced choice strikes many folks as simpler, especially if they don't have a simple user category they fit in. On the other hand, if they know more about what they want to do with the system, Apple may or may not have accommodated their needs in that one choice. One the windows side, there is a dizzying array of choices accommodating many needs and user categories given a budget and a choice of desktop vs laptop. If you're willing to sift through, you may be able to get something that better meets your needs.

Where the advantages of a Mac are clear are in areas that are harder to quantify or list as checkbox features:
Design - beauty is in the eye of the beholder
Build quality - you only really learn about that after buying and seeing how long the system holds up
UI - Depends on more than the OS, on the variety and quality of apps written for it
Security/Safety - Apple can say there aren't any viruses in the wild for OSX, right now, it certainly can't say it doesn't have any security vulnerabilities...

Where the advantages of a MS-based system are clear tend to be in more quantifiable or direct ways:
Price - more options means you'll generally find an option that seems comparable at purchase time for a lower price
Compatibility - More hardware and software vendors make stuff that runs on Windows. Even Apple products such as iPods have had to bow to this need for many years. The same story extends to their web browsers. Many sites, whatever the reason, only render properly in IE. If I want to fill out my work electronic timecard from home, Safari doesn't cut it. I don't know why

Uh oh


Certainly not

Beat me to it.

Point taken & made, but that wasn't the purpose of my post, I was

1. Referring to a comparison of capable systems, running enthusiast to pro grade software.
2. Referring to total system costs, in an enthusiast (even moderate) sector.

Enthusiasts are "consumers" too, and brand loyalty is earned daily, not assumed (at least in my playbook)

As for the costs, if you can you get a HD consumer camcorder, memory, DSLR, dual printers, required accessories and year's broadband for less than $5k with a Mac or brand-name PC capable of working with them decently, let me know!

theft is not allowed in this scenario

This commercial says nothing much about computers and everything about how uneducated consumers are. French manicures, stylish, clothes, and lots of trendy catch-phrases...this is how we usher the next generation of mindless consumers into a life of debt and macmansions full of craptacular possessions.

I don't have an inferiority complex. Its the fact that I do not enjoy being in an environment where people like to trash talk stuff without any factual basis. I am a user of both products. I don't bash Macs or OSX and I don't bash Windows. They both have their issues and I don't mind talking about them or how to work around them. They are both excellent products.


I didn't say my Dell was better. I said my daughter's MacBook wasn't better. They are basically equivalent. The are both Core 2 Duo Intel with 2 gig of ram 250 Gig hard disks. Hers does have the Intel graphics while my Dell is ATI. It's not a knock against the Mac but the integrated Intel graphics are not as good as ATI or NVidia no matter if it's a Mac or a Dell. The only feature that her Macbook has that I would like on my Dell is the magnetic power connection.


In my family I don't spend much time fixing either. If I include the Macbook we have 6 laptops, 5 windows desktops, 3 windows servers, 1 linux server, and one Mac mini.

The majority of my relatives are Windows users, only a few use Macs.


There is nothing requiring it to be Windows Mobile and if you notice you will soon see that they will be switching.

I personally like Windows Mobile and have been a Pocket PC user for years.


The free are just as good and with a few common sense precautions there isn't much need of it on Windows either. The big name Anti-Virus companies are way too intrusive on systems and cause there own share of problems.


I'm a user for 27+ years no virus yet for me.


It's statements like this that just proves the point of the Microsoft commercials and my comment about my experience in Apple stores. As soon as someone finds out that I use Windows, and Windows Mobile. It doesn't matter that I am also a Mac and iPod user.

Okay, have a few more laughs:
(1) Sony's 18.4" 1920x1080 display is less expensive than the 17" 1920x1200 display Apple uses.
(2) Sony's rickety flash-dance laptop enclosure vs. Apple's solid, down-to-business enclosure.
(3) Sony's lack of product support vs. Apple's broad level of support for both the hardware and software.

Perfect summary of my reaction. I definitely think you pay a premium for mac, but the "white paper" is so blatantly dishonest, I wouldn't be surprised if it makes people who actually read it skeptical that macs are that much more expensive at all. Really, is the difference in price so minor that MS has to artificially exaggerate it so much?


While I agree with that, it should be noted that the "white paper" makes comparisons to the old mac configurations that are no longer shipping - the current models have more than is listed in the comparisons.


You should take a look at the "white paper". It is clearly not.

Thousands of $$ dumped on WinMo devices here over the years. I was so happy to dump them all when the iPhone debuted. Can you imagine, a hand-held web browser that's actually good for something?


How do you know?

Uh huh. And you just happened to be motivated to register on an Apple enthusiast site, concurrent with and in order to basically repeat the latest MS ad campaign points, even though you don't really like such environments.

27 years and no viruses? Bullshit. You're a shill.

Thats hilarious that you think that.

I know why there's no costs for the Windows machine in Year 5 ... it's likely no longer running.

You forget to mention that those two tuners are cablecard tuners which are a complete rippoff because Cable Labs (or whatever the name) makes them be that way. Those things would sell at about $200 a piece if not more. Again, Apple doesn't compete in the home theatre area directly (Though it sorta does with the AppleTV).

If you look at the areas it does compete directly, such as notebooks and you look at sizes 13 to 18" (Since Sony doesn't have a 17" but does have 16" and 18" 16:9 displays) you will see as I pointed out that the prices are cheaper and you can get graphic/processors just as good as what Apple offers but at a lower price point. Alot of them come base with Intel Graphics but can be upgraded for $100-200 to nVidia or ATI. The one in this advert which is 16.4" comes default with ATI 3650 which benchmarks within a few points of the nVidia 9650 in the Macbook Pro.

As for reliability... I know several people with Sony laptops and desktop with none to very little issues. As far as the Battery issue, its huge but doesn't mean they fail at everything else. Just like the nVidia 8x series was a huge failure but we haven't heard any major issues with the 9x series.

Pixels on a screen.. maybe 1600x900 would be too much. I do know however that 1280x800 is a bit to little for me on a 13"... I wouldn't mind more. How much more, I couldn't tell. I know my Sony had the same 1280x800 on a 11" screen and i was fine with that.

The desktop are more about the same price. But my point has ALWAYS been about notebooks (which is a bigger market) and there EVERY model is cheaper if you count out the 11" and 13.1" with 1600x900 display. Sure they are more consumer orientated. But taking the most expensive Macbook Pro which is 17" and compare the 16.4 FW and you will see its much cheaper:

Apple Macbook Pro 17" vs Sony Vaio FW
Intel Core2Duo 2.66 | Intel Core2Duo 2.66
4GB DDR3 | 4GB DDR2
320 GB HDD | 320 GB HDD
NVIDIA 9600 GT 512 | ATI HD 3650 512
1920x1200 | 1920x1080
$2799.00 | $1399.99

The Sony is 5.5 hours battery... You can get a large size battery that is 8 hours.

Apple Macbook 13" vs Sony Vaio SR

1280x800 LED | 1280x800 LED | 1280x800 LED | 1280x800 LED
Intel Core2Duo 2.0 | Intel Core2Duo 2.4 | Intel Core2Duo 2.0 | Intel Core2Duo 2.4
2GB DDR3 | 2GB DDR3 | 2GB DDR2 | 2GB DDR2
160GB HDD | 250GB HDD | 160GB HDD | 250GB HDD
NVIDIA 9400M | NVIDIA 9400M | ATI HD 3470 | ATI HD 3470
$1299 | $1599 | $1149.99 | $1279.99

As you... Sony is cheaper. Benchmarks would see barely a difference between DDR2 and DDR3 in these configurations. In fact the old White Macbook 2.4 DDR2 showed some better results in some categories than the new Aluminum 2.4 DDR3 according to Macworld.

I don't see how it's a "win" for people to be talking about the ads if they are generally saying they are a crock. People talked like crazy about the awful Gates/Seinfeld adds too, was that also a 'win"?

Well, I have not read all comments so maybe somebody already made this point.

It seems to me everybody here is jumping at the defense of Apple and how unfair the comparison is, and I agree with most of that, and the comparison is unfair.

Also let me say, that my main machine is and for the foreseeable future always will be a Mac.

But I think there are 2 big reasons not to buy a Mac.

First if I want a big Laptop screen i.e. bigger than 13", I have to spend over $1,500 with Apple.
Which is ridiculous when I can get 15" PC Laptops for less than $500.

Second Gaming, if I want a gaming Computer, I just have to get a Windows PC, its not even possible for me to use Bootcamp, because for me a Gaming PC, should have an awesome Graphics Card when I buy it, which is not even possible with the Mac Pro, and a Gaming PC should be upgradable, which can only be done with the Mac Pro, which is a bit expensive.

But do I think Apple is wrong?
Well yes and no, I don't think Apple is aiming at the gaming Market and they are fine with me buying a PC or Gaming Console.

Also when you do a Hardware comparison, of Macs to PCs, they are usually about the same Price, maybe Apple a bit more, which is fine hey I get OS X and a computer that looks just awesome.
But this is not true for Laptops, I haven't done an exact comparison in a while, but usually, you can get the same or better Laptops hardware wise, even from Alienware, which are bloody expensive and also carry a bit of a premium tag.
And the only disadvantage about Alienware is, they are ugly (to me), and no OS X.

For me that means for now, buying Laptops from other Computer Makers for my mobile needs.
As I can live without Mac OS X on the road using Ubuntu or Vista.

I don't really use my Windows Mobile for browsing, but when I do I use Opera Mini. I like the Pocket PC because of all the software that I can get for it, the software that I depend on, and the fact that I can easily write quick programs on the device itself. I think the iPhone is great, but it's not for me. I did have converged device for a while, but I went back to a basic phone and a Pocket PC.

I know I don't have virus's because I install and run anti-virus software on one of my servers about twice a year and scan all my drives.

Or bundled app value. We have several individuals in our organization that use iMovie to create some great video content & my brother in-law has done a lot of music production inside garageband. Granted neither is a pro app but definitely beyond anything you get for the same price on Windows.

Oh, & I'm not sure how I understand it being a "tax" when you pay more for a laptop made of higher grade components. They compare internal specs but have 0 comparison of external or structural components. We recently had an individual drop a MacBook Pro Unibody off the back of a desk onto a concrete floor (probably 3 - 4 ft). Barely made a dent. If he hadn't told me it had been dropped I never would have noticed the slight scratches! We paid just over 2,000 for his MacBook Pro & a similarly rigid & resilient Panasonic tough-book runs about 2 - 3,000.

These false comparisons are extremely frustrating, they are counter productive to technological advances because they trick the populous in buying the same old thing.

I bought a Mac but I don't consider the extra cost an Apple Tax, I consider it an investment in the future. If Microsoft wants to compete they need to do more innovating & less scheming.

I registered so I could reply to this post after I read the rant about the latest Microsoft ad. It seemed ridiculous to me to complain about them. I think they are doing what they should be doing, just like the excellent, funny, but less then truthful I'm a Mac ads.

Even though most of my time is spent using Windows, I am also an Apple enthusiast. I am currently reading and enjoying the excellent book by Amit Singh on the internals of OSX.

I am definitely not a shill and no Bullshit on the virus. I have received virus's in my e-mail, but I don't run them.

Then you've heard what a PIA the devices are. Apple staff will readily tell you a high percentage break down, that frequently the staff have to ask to borrow another's POS (point of sale or piece of ****) device, and that activating the devices is a tedious process.

That's what autorun is for. You've not even inserted a Sony audio CD in your computer?

I don't allow programs to automatically run when devices are mounted.

You obviously haven't looked at the "white paper". You should. You'd have a much better understanding of the negative reaction.

The wow starts sometime next year..

I don't see anything dishonest in the white paper. I don't like the way it's written, I think it should just lay down the facts instead. I don't expect a white paper to be so blatantly biased. I believe it clouds the issue to bring Mobile Me vs Mesh into the comparison.

The details specified are a moving target. Most of the details mentioned have probably changed specs since it was written. I've seen people complain about prices mentioned in the white paper, but they are the prices. Sure you can get discounts on any the things mentioned. The bottom line no matter how you compare them you can buy similar hardware for less money then what Apple is providing.

Even so, it is certainly reasonable to pay more money for the fully integrated solution that Apple provides. Most people I know that buy Macs, like that about them. They don't want to have to worry about what sound card or video card to get, or if software they buy will work with the hardware they have.

You don't think listing Office and Quicken as mac expenses but not on the PC is dishonest? It's not free on the PC. Listing mobileme on the mac side but nothing similar on the PC side (especially when mobileme runs on the PC and the cheaper PC options mostly run on mac)? Complaining that the mac laptop has no keyboard and mouse (huh)? iLife upgrade but nothing equivalent listed for the PC at all? Ignoring mac hardware advantages like laptop webcam? Picking more expensive third party units like wireless router on the mac side when the mac can use the same as the PC with no problems? Doing comparisons where the PC has an inferior processor instead of comparing the version that has the same as the mac?

You don't think any of those things are dishonest at all?

And I find it completely ridiculous that for a family with two kids running Office and Quicken they'd pick the MAC PRO as the desktop model to compare instead of the iMac or even the mini. Gee, you think if you pick the most expensive pro model on one side and a consumer machine on the other there won't be a difference in price?

Guess I was wrong.

What browser do you use by default?

I couldn't agree more.

This question was relating to not getting viruses. Firefox


It seems like you are nitpicking. The White Paper is geared towards Windows users switching to Macs. The comparison is based on someone who already owns Office/Quicken and doesn't need to buy it if they buy a new Windows machine. As also explained in the White Paper their synching scenario has them using the free Windows Live/Mesh.

I guess it would be quite a challenge to get a virus on a 27 year old computer, with no networking, 5 1/4 floppies and cassette drives.

You have it dead right sadly. While many of us likely know the differences say, between Nvidia and ATI video card models (or at least the series they fall in), most average computer users dont know even know what an Nvidia or ATI are, or that they compete, and in some cases what the video card REALLY does.

I think Apple does need to step up its use of RAM especially. Ram is light, cheap and in general well made accross the market. They have no excuse not to have a crapload of it in all their systems. HArddrives too, though I understand the reliability/size/weight issues involved. However its sad to see a Mac system in the lowend with 1 GB going up against systems with 4+. Just sad. I mean I built a desktop PC with 12GB for less than $200 (for the ram). Its a different world, they need to adapt how they look at ram, less of a "good markup accessory" and more as a "bite the bullet to sell systems" and "essential" mentality.

I think the PC's new ads are two things though, 1. Misleading and manipulative. 2. Effective.

Some marketting pro's really thought these ads out. If you werent either a machead of an open minded techie (I consider myself the latter) your likely to be presuaded. Though it wont break the "cool" factor -- despite the effort they put into doing exactly that.

They really are not happy. This is probably a knee-jerk reaction to cover the manufacture of inferior products by using a good old political style smear campaign. They're not overly bright considering that they too have a microsoft tax, one thing being 32 bit os's don't addrss the full 4 gig, anti-virus/malware in willy-world and the somewhat poor adoption of 64 bits when available.

This really is the way that retail works though you are taxed by one company or another in various ways and it's up to us to decide which taxes are less burdensome.

Uh...yes, I agree. This is one reason why Apple hasn't bothered to deal with turning either the Mini or aTV into a DVR. The other is, of course, iTunes.


You do realize that neither Sony nor Apple wishes to make head to head comparisons particularly easy right?

One such area that makes the comparison more complicated is that Sony is using 1920x1080 panels and Apple is using 1920x1200 panels.

Does it really make that much a difference? Kinda sorta...my 24" Dell monitor and my 17" MBP display have the same pixels and same usable work space. The 1080 panel is a bit shorter.

Worth a $350 dollars between the 18" VAIO and the 17" MBP? Nah, but that with OSX is.


If you count out Sony's high end offerings of course they are cheaper. Ignoring the Z and TT models is ignoring a large part of Sony's actual profit margins.


Sure. Of course, the AW is probably more comparable but lets not pick that one.


Lets actually start with the SR closest to the lowest end MB:

SR with 2.0Ghz C2D, GMA4500, 160GB HDD, 2GB DDR2 RAM, Vista Home - $1099
MB with 2.0Ghz C2D, 9400M, 120GB HDD, 2GB DDR2 RAM, OSX - $999

About the same. But hey, lets not consider the 13" white MB.

Now lets look at the 2.4 Ghz MB vs Z.

Z with 2.4 Ghz C2D, 9300M, 250GB HDD, 2GB DDR3 RAM, Vista Home - $1699
MB with 2.4 Ghz C2D, 9400M, 250GB HDD, 2GB DDR3 RAM, OSX - $1599

But hey, lets not compare the MB to the Z with the same DDR3 chipset because...then your argument would be far less compelling.

Yes, Sony makes less expensive laptops. But again...comparing the same laptop (when you can) between Apple and Sony and they come out about the same.

When you pick laptops with older generation tech against ones with newer generation tech and say "Hey it's cheaper" you're right. But not so honest. Whatever you may think of the advantages of the DDR3 memory Sony has elected to use it for their high end 13" laptop. As has Apple. And like Apple, their lower end 13" machines continue to use the older DDR2 memory.

They are learning missinformation and fraud from some of the drug adds and promises made by propiganda against certain lifestyle choices.
We Shant get in to those here, but scare tactics coupled with missinformation on a grand scale and retraction on a small one has been responsible for many a social engineering victory.
We must remember that ms doesn't think these things up, they tent to apropriate them from those who have always used them.
To think otherwise would be accusing them of inivation, a crime that they have not yet committed

trouble is, even if they are right about the presence of a 'tax' they hurt their rep by doing things like putting software on one list that isn't on the other, putting the wrong price for mobileme (it's $99 not $149 a year) and so on.

had they been legit and accurate with what they put then folks couldn't jump on them for padding the report. but because they did, any actual correct facts will be at risk of being dismissed by association.


actually they didn't. Apple never really twisted anything. the details they brought up about PC/Windows are all things that folks have complained about. so they used those complaints as their talking points. okay so they didn't turn around and talk about the pros of windows but hey, it's an Apple ad not a Windows one so what do you expect