Microsoft pays for inaccurate "Apple Tax" study, issues 3rd TV ad - Page 6

On it goes...

While memory, hard drive space... matter, are these things really on your mind when you are shopping for a computer? I'm looking for something that feels fast, does what I need it to do, stays out of the way so that I'm not thinking about using a computer, doesn't break down on me and has a long useful life. I honestly don't know or care how much RAM is in the computer that I'm currently using.

I have a PC which I use for scientific applications that are unavailable on the Mac and a Mac for doing pretty much everything else. The Mac is easier to use and the difference in price is more than made up for by that fact. The box specs only tell a story that I doubt the average person needs to hear.

It also makes it easier to get work done if you can make the palettes as small as possible to make more room for the actual document.


Those choices are what led last week to my wife buying what is the only non-Apple computer I've ever had in my house. She bought an HP laptop because it offered her what she needed from the hardware, and no Apple product has any of the features on her "must-have' list. She doesn't even like Windows either, and she's actually a little annoyed that Apple essentially "forced" her to go PC.



As a price category, no it's not fair at all. But as a realistic comparison of what people are actually looking for in a computer, it is. For most people, if they are looking for a desktop computer, they are looking for a tower. The Mac Pro is the only tower Apple makes.

This is Kay's website:
http://www.ndpta.com/
it's as bad as the report

Something smells fishy. 5 Years ago laptops were more expensive than they are now. A lot more. If you got three laptops five years ago, and two laptops two years ago, you'd have spent a lot more than an average of $600 per laptop.

Then you claim a MacBook costs $2000.

Your cost figures sound as bogus as this report we're discussing.

Hmm... So what you are saying that the video card on the iPhone seems to be enough to satisfy users?

This is moot point. Console games are the future. Game developers are tired of the piracy and are abandoning the PC. The iPhone is considered a console.

Agreed. What these jokers also don't understand is that a recession doesn't matter if you need a computer, have chosen a Mac, and can afford it. They're not going to settle just because there is a recession.

... and you would never guess Microsoft campaign is response to Apple making jokes on Microsoft behalf in most of their "Get a Mac" ads in the last couple of years..?

Mac users are very annoyed after only 3 new MS ads. How much do you think Microsoft leaders are annoyed after, what? 30+ ads from Apple?

Spoke too soon, didn't you? I knew they were working on a point of sale solution as soon as I heard about 3.0's USB and Bluetooth APIs. I was going to mention it in my last reply to your ignorant comment, but I omitted it to save time. I knew that getting those Windows Mobile monstrosities out of Apple's retail stores was one of Jobs' top priorities. I knew the only thing holding it back was the card reading hardware.

You fail.

Early Commodore Pets had chiklet keyboards in the mid '80s; but I'm not sure what this has to do with this topic.

Went to Dell.com and specd out a 2.4 Ghz Studio XPS 13 Laptop with Vista® Ultimate, 4Gb RAM, 320Gb HD, some essential software for migration, office and anti-virus along with 3 year warranty. The total cost came out as $2025 (including a few discounts).

Now going to Apple's Education store (face it you are probably get this for a kid or student anyway)
A similar spec MacBook 2.4 Ghz, 4Gb RAM 320Gb HD, 3 year apple care, +iWorks +Bento works out at $1929.

So that thats PC TAX of roughly 5% before you even get it home.

There should be an advert 'Get yourself a decent laptop which you can use and is going to last your more than 3 years for under $2000'

Thinking about it, it's actually in Microsoft interest to sell you a crap computer so you will have to replace it every year, the only problem is that people a have worked this out and the alternatives are a lot better. People don't what to shut up and put up any more. PCs are cheap for a reason, they just don't last.

It is obvious that Mr. Kay has never used a Mac. Apple tax? - are you kidding? On the contrary Mr Kay, what about the Microsoft taxes in the form of all the time required to just keep the Windows system running, the cost and time for the Geek Squad calls to clean it of viruses not to mention the cost of the antivirus and security software and yearly renewals.

Mac users have none of that and are much more productive. A Mac simply works. No annoying MS crap to get in the way of your work. So which would you choose - daily frustration using Windows or the pleasant experience of using a Mac. The 13 Million people who bought Mac computers in 2008 see the pleasure of using a Mac as priceless.

Mr. Kay - you should be ashamed of yourself writing such an inaccurate story. What would your mother say? Now go to your room.

JoeCoolDaddio

Right... First of all, Windows has only been around for what, 24 years now? Even so, most people didn't use it until at least version 3.0, which was around 1993. In any case, it doesn't matter how long you've used Windows, it doesn't change the fact that you're a liar. Even if you think you haven't had a virus, you wouldn't know because, as you've stated, you don't run antivirus.

Why is it that people like to assume that Mac users are ignorant of Windows? I know a lot of "switchers" who spent years on WIndows before making their way to the Mac. I happen to be one of them. You can't lie to me about what Windows is and is not. The best way to describe the way I feel about Windows is to compare it to a truck stop hooker, running from truck to truck, sucking off one dirty trucker after another. Keep the herpes, please.

Two years ago, I had a MacBook Pro that I bought for $1,600 that I KNOW would rape your Dell. Aside from that, you're either intentionally leaving out the things that the MacBook has that your Dell doesn't, or you're completely ignorant to their existence. I'm leaning towards the ignorance.

Lies or ignorance, which one is it? I'm serious. I can't tell the difference.

Don't know about that guy, but here in NZ, you can bet you'll find group of Paris Hilton wannabe young teen girls, with make up and wardrobe mostly inappropriate for their age, discussing colours of iPod Nano or something else equally irrelevant. I also feel a bit silly browsing among such audience, but hey - that is part of clients Apple attracts with their image.


It tells a man is more comfortable and is achieving what he needs with less effort and time on Dell than on Mac... for example; so for him, Dell is better than Mac. If you don't have problem with anyone saying Dual Core iMac is better than Quad Core Dell, you should have no problem with this as well. Computing experience is very personal. What works for one not necessarily works for the other.


Maybe you are not fixing those PCs well? Just a thought...


All of you in real Macworld, you mean. Still there were people who needed copy/paste and video recording on their phones before Apple decided they need it.


Free AV is working perfectly fine enough for a home user. And Apple is recommending their users to have AV installed on Macs. Guess that unpopular message must have been launched by some MS mole deep inside Apple's headquarters..?


Err... yeah, right.

You do realize in real real world iWork is not even considered business grade office software? But for making colourful school assignments, I'm sure it is perfectly suitable

And messy documents are usually product of messy user. Learn how to do proper formatting on any document editing software and you'll get tidy results.

My, you are completely clueless.

Instead of throwing 360 at Ballmer's head, better spend some time educating yourself before you post things you have not a single puny little idea about.

Well GOOD MORNING, VIETNAM!!!

Of course you don't buy Macs for gaming - there are almost no games for Mac. Not even the most dedicated Apple acolyte would find excuse to buy Mac for gaming.

But many of you do buy and bootcamp Windows on Mac because of gaming.

So what is your point?

No need for luck there. I haven't seen PC hardware up to 5 years old that does not work with Vista... and I've seen a lot of hardware. Since W7 will be compatible on drivers' level with Vista, same trend will continue.

Do 5 years old Macs work with Leopard and Snow Leopard..?

Because... he never had any signs of virus infection, maybe..?

Oh, wait - he must have a few dozens of those highly deadly viruses that do nothing at all!!!

You don't know the guy, don't know anything about him - and you call him a liar just because he said something not in line with your vision of real world?

Your parents haven't done great job at all...

What you really mean is: Yes.

We have 5 year old Macs that work fine with Leopard (there is no Snow Leopard yet). In fact, the iMac G4/1.0 17" was introduced in Feb 2003, and that's over 6 years ago. And it's fully supported by Leopard, and runs just great. My kids get hand-me-down hardware, and it just keeps working and working and working. And getting better with each new OS release - which conveniently comes in affordable family packs.

And if you're really saying you haven't seen 5 year old PC hardware that can't run Vista, you're either a fking liar, or ignorant beyond belief. Go read a few articles instead of coming in here and leaving post after post of troll bullshit.

No, I called him a liar because his post was pretty much a compendium of MS talking points, he apparently chose to register on a Mac enthusiast site even though he specifically stated that he disliked our company, and he made some highly suspect claims about his experience of Windows as a pristine nirvana.

I have to ask myself why someone who is enjoying using their PCs would ever see the need to seek out Mac users to school them in the error of their ways.

You, on the other hand, without knowing me, have elected to question how I was raised, based on my failure to conform to your vision of the world.

Which just makes you an asshole.

All your astroturfist are belong to Nikon133..

So they (MS) are saying that they themselves find Apple Premium products? Finally for the first time in the history they are correct about something.

They are so scared that they attack the "premiumness" and "glossyness" without thinking, cleary. The meeting about this went probably by throwing chairs 'round the office.

Anyway, it would've make, although factually incorrect, if they told us how NOT premium Apple is, stating that every pc has WiFi, and more connectivity and that they are pretty as well and that Apple just is a Intel PC with a nice case wrapped around it.

That was one of my reasons for getting a Mac and an iPOD, iPhone etc. Lots of people want stuff that is better than things other people have and Apple products fall into that category like designer hardware. Lets face it Macs have always cost more and your paying for a name and the case it comes in.

Yes! To name a few:

The Quicksilver PowerMac G4 867Ghz introduced in July 2001 (almost 8 years ago!!!) can run Leopard

The Aluminium PowerBook G4 introduced in January 2003 867Mhz - 1Ghz (6 years old) runs it along with the previous Titanium PowerBook G4 867Mhz - 1Ghz from November 2002

The iMac G4 1Ghz introduced in February 2003 also can run Leopard.

It would appear that all Macs released after April 2004 can run Leopard.

That's a somewhat bogus comparison since you're comparing a heavily discounted product against one that isn't really discounted at all. You'll need to tell us the price of the Mac without any educational discount before this is a credible comparison. My guess is it becomes a lot more expensive.

EDIT - It looks like it's $2121.95 for the Mac, which gives it a small premium over the Dell offering. Hmmm, and somehow the Dell I configured comes to $1567 which includes the same spec as the MacBook, same 3 years warranty, and Microsoft Office. So it seems you pay about a $600 premium for the Mac, which is a good 40% or so - no amount of unibody or OSX is worth that much IMO! I'd rather stick with Windows than be $600 worse off (DISCLAIMER - this is my opinion, and may vary from others).

It's quite funny that people continue to complain that they can't afford to buy a Mac and that this is somehow Apple's fault for not selling them a substandard product or one at a heavy lose.

To be blunt it's your problem for not saving properly for the computer you really want. Not looking for discounts say on the Apple educational store or at refurbished products, or even on ebay.

Where do Dell offer Ed discounts? Their site is pretty bad to find anythings, I was actually trying to find an Adamo to compare with an MacBook Air but gave up looking and stuck with the latitude.

It did take me about 10x longer to spec out the Dell and to find out things like it's weight and actual screen res than the MacBook.

Even if it is bogus, it's still less bogus than the so called 'professional' report since both are quite close on price and not out by $1000's over 5 years

I'd really love to own a Mac because I love the style. However, I can't bring myself to spend so much on a computer I know I could build myself for half the price and do the same/more things on it. When Apple offer more reasonable prices where I don't feel like I'm being ripped off, I'll buy one then

Macs are not just a fancy case, they are combination of hardware and software which is built to work together. Apple's prices ARE reasonable.

I doubt you'll be able to build a computer for half the price that does the same things (+ these imaginary 'more' things). Why don't you also factor your time into this endeavor unless you value it at zero? Maybe if you spent this time working and getting paid you might not find Macs expensive.

Five years 3 months ago I bought 3 HP laptops with AMD 2400 processors for $599 each and got a 10% discount on them. Two years 6 months ago a bought a Dell laptop for $425 and two years 4 months ago I bought another Dell for 1015. I'm sorry I underestimated the total. It was actually $3060.00.

I don't know the exact numbers on the Macbook. I only know what I was told and I was told $2000.00. I know that two years ago you needed to spend more money then you do now to get a 250 gig hard disk, 2 gig of ram and a faster processor. I do not know all the options that were selected at the Apple store and it was with an academic discount.

Over the past 6-7 years Apple has managed two Major architectural transitions which are contributing to is current success. First was the move from Mac OS 9 to Mac OS X. The following five subsequent releases of OS X would often improve performance of software running on the same hardware. Secondly the move from PowerPC to Intel processors. Both of these were big moves and have clearly made the Mac a better platform for it's users.

Meanwhile Microsoft has been battling for 10 years with buggy half assed releases of Windows 98, Me, 2000, XP, now Vista and soon 7. During this whole process they have done little in the way of making things any better for it's users. Instead they have bloated the OS making it run slow on existing hardware and added features which are highly annoying and inconvenient, Microsoft Genuine Advantage anyone? Windows still looks like a dog's ass, crashes lots, is plagued with viruses, Internet Explorer sucks and the whole thing needs reinstalling every 6 months.

It's clear that Apple's track record is just so much better than Microsoft's. Buying a PC is just a waste, as once you have it no one cares, not the shop which you brought it from (unless you want to pay for the Nerd Hurd), the manufacturer or Microsoft, you're stuffed! Further PC's change so often and are randomly spec out so you are unlikely to ever find someone with the same model and hence share knowledge.

Apple has a history of supporting it's products. Every product the company has ever released is clearly documented on Apple's website, Wikipedia and numinous other sites, No other PC company can claim this. Apple products have a community and there will be 1000's of other people online with the same kit. Finally Apple has expanding network of retail stores staffed by people who know and care the Mac.

I'd argue they weren't reasonable when I could build the same spec PC for almost half the price, and it perform the same and/or better than the Mac does. To me, that's unreasonable. I'm happy to factor in a margin of 10-15% on top of the cost of components for Apple to keep, but anymore and I think they're simply ripping people off. Their $20billion bank account clearly demonstrates they have plenty of cash to spare, so could easily reduce the price of their hardware without much bother.

If you were putting together a PC you'd be doing it in your own time anyway - it's not as if you'd take a days unpaid leave from work to do it! Or are you suggesting that every minute of everyday you are doing paid work? If that was a consideration anyway, you'd just buy a (still cheaper) Dell or something since it arrives all built

The pricing of a product is set by the supplier. It's up to them set the price which allows them to continue as a business and supply a product which the buyer can have confidence in.

Your idea of buying components introduces a large element of risk. The completed computer may not function as expected and leaves you with little recourse.

I've been an IBM compatible user for 27+ years . There were virus's for DOS and you could get them from Floppies. I like how you ask "how do I know I don't have a virus because I don't run anti-virus software?". I would ask then the same thing of all the Mac users that don't run anti-virus software. If you have read my posts to this thread you should know that I do use anti-virus software. I just don't run it all the time on all my systems. I actually run it on one system and use it to scan all of my drives. I do not leave it running or installed. I do it about two times a year.

Please tell me what the Macbook has that my Dell doesn't, other then the nice break away magnetic power cord and OS X.

Well if part of it doesn't work, you send it back for replacement. That works just the same as sending an entire computer back.

Answering your questions...

1. Leopard works on my wife's 4 1/2 yr old powerbook G4 just fine. A big improvement over the Panther that came with it. So the asnwer is yes.

2. As for snow leopard, it doesn't exist yet, except in a lab in Cupertino. Until it ships, anything can happen so we'll all have to stay tuned. My money says it will install fine on this PBG4.

I don't think that anyone would disagree with me stating that Apple have been very prudent in building up such as cash surplus over the past 10 years. Considering the current global economic environment this move has been proven very wise and places Apple in a better position to continue supporting it's customers in comparison to competitors.

Why should existing customers be subsidizing your purchase anyway?

Because if Apple want me to buy one of their computers, their exisiting customers will have to subsidise the price, because I'm not prepared to be ripped off. If they don't do that, I won't buy their products, and I will go on happily with the money in my pocket instead

...why are you on this forum?