Microsoft may clone iPod touch as Zune HD - Page 3

you were the one that had to spew "fanboy" to a person that owns more Apple stuff than MS powered stuff.

i like both Apple and MS, so fucking sue me. i also like Competition in the market place. as it creates productivity that only helps the customers.

If you re-read my post, it is talking of the idea of what this COULD be, and how exciting THAT is. not what IS, and what WILL be. you just sound like someone scared. which never happens to those of us that dont put emotions into a company that doesnt care about us (could be said for apple OR MS)

i like to see tech move forward, which is one reason i love apple, but if another company does it as well, i'll be excited. im sorry if you cant love tech as a whole, and have to cling to one company, like you are following your favorite sports team.

trying to get a higher post count? try adding something into the conversation next time. this adds nothing but noting that you are an apple fanboy, something htis site has plenty of (which is understandable, but still sad) not all sites that are designed to follow a single product have to be fanboy sites, i like the ones that are both critical and supportive personally.

It is interesting that when MS decides to make an DAP that is touch-based, such a vocal group of iPodders go into fanatic mode and bash them. YET, Cowon recently introduced their S9 and barely a peep was heard. Sony is about to release a similar device and again and I doubt anyone will go over-the-top in their complaints about Sony.

I really don't think this is about the Zune, but instead it is about MS. If someone else made the Zune, most folks who bash it wouldn't care, much less take the time to post about it.

I have owned iPods since my first 5GB model. I have also owned several other players: Zune, Cowon, Sony mp3, Sony minidisc, Sony HiMD, etc. All of these over the last 8 years. The simple fact is that they were all well built, they all played music well. Each had its strengths and weaknesses. What do I use now? A iPod Touch 16GB, a Sony A808 8GB flash, iPod Photo 60GB and a Zune 80GB.

Every one of these players is an excellent choice for a music lover. You may prefer a particular company, which is reasonable, but to bash another product and make baseless claims because you are a fanboy is not reasonable.

Will I get the Zune HD. Probably not, since MS has yet to add East Asian font support to the Zune. If they do, we will see. The Sony new X-series is next on my list simply because the Sony still sounds better than all the other players I have ever listened to (from the headphone jack).

You might want to qualify that statement with "...in the U.S. ..." The iPod doesn't have the same following elsewhere in the U.S. Japan and Korea are prime examples.

Probably because it's already been done, and done very well. At least well enough for the average consumer to not really care about them.

OK, just out of curiosity, what the fuck are you picture of a rectangle fans even talking about?

Fanboys "bashing" MS for their product? What product? If I don't agree that the picture of a rectangle is probably going to be awesome, it makes me an Apple apologist, or something?

The entire conversation is surreal, and seems to be mostly based on animosity towards Apple enthusiasts having the balls to be enthusiastic about Apple products on an Apple enthusiast site.

OK, look, sorry. I agree. The picture of a rectangle is amazing. If I weren't so caught up in my mindless Apple boosterism, that would be clear. The only reason I haven't been posting about what a great phone/MP3 player/secret mystery segment destroyer the picture of a rectangle is is because I'm terrified that MS is going to make the touch screen product they were always inevitably going to make, eventually, and have it run the non-touch friendly and not very popular and increasingly dated looking Windows Mobile, but, you know, with some Zune stuff on there which will obviously be totally awesome, on account of the bigger fonts, and sell it for Verizon, which very obviously will be hugely popular.

And then, at some point, it can run WinMob 7 which is obviously awesome and will be amazing and Apple had better watch out and I can barely go on, on account of the fear.

We good?

They did something with the pins with last year's iDevices. There are plenty of reports of accessories not working. Some do and others don't. The 30-pin-to-FW400 cables no longer worked either. I had these lying around from old iPods and used them to charge at various places.

I don't know why they changed the pin system so that some chargers don't work, but they did. I do disagree with the previous poster that thinks it was some secret initiative by Apple to help sell accessories, which would really just help out 3rd-parties. Even Apple's own, older iPod accessories, like the iPod Hi-Fi, don't work with the iPhone 3G or new iPods.

...taking Apple products apart and copying them?

So, let me see, you are saying that the reason apple has billions in the bank is solely because they do not allow OSX on other computers and tehir margin on theri computers.

So the ipods and iphone etc have made apple no bank at all?

So MS is just like apple?

1) stating something as 'key', as the OP did, and stating something as 'solely', as you did, are not even close to the same thing.

2) OS X is on some on the iPhone and one type of iPod.

3) The iPod OS is not licensed, so it would fall under the same reasoning the OP made about a complete widget having benefit over other business models.

4) Balmer has stated that Apple needs to open their OS if they want to achieve more than a a small percentage of the market. I found this comment ironic for a couple reasons. One, the percentage he stated was well above the marketshare Apple publicly stated they wanted to achieve and, second, With less than 2 years on the market in many less countries, on less providers and only one premium handset type with two capacities for storage, they are about to over take them, despite the many years MS has been at it.

5) When you think that Apple makes money on the HW and SW, comparing them to only a company that only makes SW for a compared device to see which platform is more valuable is a bit daft. On the mobile or PC-side, MS has to sell a lot more their SW to equal the profit from one iPhone or Mac sale. This makes the whole OS marketshare thing pointless, especially now that Apple has more than enough to be viable to 3rd-party app developers and that the openness of the internet has made many things OS-agnostic.

If we use a simple term like not being first to enter a market with a product", then Apple and MS are pretty similar, but that is where the similarities end.

You write a near incomprehensible post and end it by suggesting that any idiot could "figure it out".

Maybe you should calm down a little? Take a little time to think things through before you post? Perhaps then the people, who are not idiots, could figure it out too.

And all the Ballmer Youth shout "Sieg Heil".

side step the question, back track, and try and make us look like the ones that started pushing the "fanboy" talk.... nice try. doesn't change what you/i wrote.

as for everything else? how old are you? you are acting like a child. i simply show hope that some company can create better competition in the marketplace and you somehow change this into a flamefest against MS/Myself, despite the fact that my previous posts in this thread and others, show that i am a proud supporter of apple products.

Apple Insider made it's way into the Microsoft haven "Engadget" regarding this article. From a commentator:

"superhobo @ Apr 11th 2009 3:02PM
If anyone sees this, writers like this butthead (link below) are the reason Apple haters exist. They insult the intelligence of ants.
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...s_zune_hd.html "

I recently read a few Apple related entires on Engadget, I find it amusing that everyone seems to LOATHE Apple so much. Even the comments referring to Apple individuals as "fanboys" from rapid M$ "fanboys" made me chuckle. Oi.

im sorry, can i help you out, what did you not comprehend? how can i clarify it for you?

as much as i think Ballmer is a complete jackass, are you seriously comparing him to Hitler?

First, any time any one uses "fanboy" to describe anyone (may it be an Apple or Windows client) you have lost your argument (this isn't play school).

Second, why are you visiting APPLEInsider if you [seem to] loathe Apple so vehemently? This isn't MICROSOFTInsider, or ELECTRONICSInsider.

Microsoft clients who loathe Apple need to stop baiting people on Apple sites (AppleInsider, MacRumors are their latest victims), it's getting extremely tired.

oh and i normally would never use it, in fact i make it a point not to. however i KNEW one of you would make this EXACT statement, as i have heard it (and used it) on many occasions.

then why did i use it you ask? well because someone actually called ME the fanboy first, and therefor you read THAT reply first, however which person did you decide to single out and tell that they had "already lost their argument"? me. Why? because i am not on your side, which simply means that you are only using the "any time any one uses "fanboy" to describe anyone (may it be a Apple or Windows client) you have lost your argument" when it is convenient to you. thank you for making my point for me.


go back and read the posts that you CLEARLY read, im not at all "loathing" apple, i love them, as stated in posts you again already read, i own more Apple software/hardware than i do MS. what i am loathing right now however is the people that are posting how horrible this product is before we know any real information about it. and if this product is even REAL. now if it is real just by looking at it you have to assume it will be decent, MS is not in the habit of releasing BAD hardware/software. maybe not always my cup of tea, but the Xbox is good, the Zune is good (when compared to anything but the iPhone/iPod Touch), and most MS accessories are good. why would this suddenly be "bad"?

thats the point im making. and it has nothing to do with apple making a single "bad product" in fact, like ive said (3 times in this single thread and countless other times) Apple makes AMAZING products, both Software and Hardware.

Wow. You need to calm down. Seriously. Please.

wow... really? im not worked up. you may look like a bit of an ass. but im perfectly calm.

in the future just read more carefully and dont attack a member that might be slightly more open minded as you.

@ouragan: You are a certified moron. I hope you and your Microsoft garbage compactor are very happy together.

No one called you a fanboy. Addabox wrote, "Fuck, and people talk about "Apple fan boys."" The problem I think people have with your posts is your maniac style of writing. You don't use capitals unless you wish to make an ENTIRE word capital. These writing styles aren't usually associated with a calm person. You also ask question that you immediately answer. Again, this is atypical for a calm and rational poster. Sometimes this can be useful, but usually when joking around to make a posting a little lighter, but yours don't come across as that is waht you are trying to do. Do I do it? Sometimes.

Finally, you stated that you were called a fanboy first. But not of Piots posts to you even mentioned fanboy, but you felt the need to call him one in a retaliatory manner from a much earlier post on this thread. Frankly, that doesn't bode well for your maturity. Then you said CJD2112 wasn't reading the thread close enough, even though, and I repeat, Piot never called you a fanboy.

PS: Your posts are looking as if they are meant to infuriate other posters, but I think that is not your aim, just your defense. I suggest that you tone down your posts a bit and try to be more thorough in your postings. I don't think any (okay, most) of the regular posters will bash your for liking a non-Apple product or disliking an Apple product or disliking what the article states, but try to be throughout when discussing your reasons.

well i was being clear. if my posts were being read in full. i do capitalize to highlight something that someone is ignoring that might make their point less valid. such as someone someone saying i am a loather of apple products when they "clearly" (no caps!) did read my previous posts that stated i love the products and own more apple software/hardware than i do MS.

now i know i do come off as a little abrasive, but it has a lot to do with a few of the more current threads where i have mentioned that i own a PC, any time this is mentioned i get attacked by all sides, eventually leading me being called a "fanboy" for any small (and i do mean small) criticism of apple. (mostly to do with price, lets face it, they are over priced right now and need to work on making that increase in price worth it)

anyway, as for the Fanboy comment, i was called a fanboy, sure it wasnt in so many words, but the implication of that phrase was direct and clear. other smaller personal attacks followed, such as my posts be unclear, Piot, where my point was clearly stated, maybe on the harsher side, but still easily understandable.

defensive, yes, but more on a personal level, not on a "dont make fun of MS" level. as ive done plenty of that on my own.

again, i may stir the pot a little bit, but hey, sometimes some of the members on the site (and the site itself) get a little carried away with how great apple really is. sure i love it, but mistakes are made, and there is never an instance where competition makes an Apple product worse, only better.

I hereby renounce all use of the term "fanboy." I think it's a stupid term used by people who don't have a case to make. I will note for the record that it is most often used to shout down Mac users, here and across the internets, which is might fucking tiresome.

If it were up to me there would be a zero tolerance policy for same, within the banstick swung on the first offense. It's an Apple enthusiast website, for heaven's sake, does open mindedness really require that we allow the place to be overrun by smirking trolls who have nothing better to do than drone on about how vastly overrated Apple is, and how mindless and vapid its users are?

Seriously. Fucking irritating. I've been posting here a long time, we were, once, a community. Now people make their first post a insulting bray of spittle, then hang around to dance their stupid little troll jig.

And please note I'm not calling anyone out, in particular, and certainly no one in the immediate vicinity of whatever the hell is even being contested, in this thread.

Having said that, I also think it makes no sense at all to have an opinion, good or bad, about a product from MS that we don't know a blessed thing about, beyond that it appears to be taller than it is wide and have a touch screen. It might be good, great, too little too late, fatally flawed, or non-existent.

I think that MS's track record to date suggests that were they to release a "Touch" alike, it would be perfectly acceptable, do a few things that the Touch does not, cost about the same, and generally fail to make even a ripple in the larger market.

If MS makes their own phone, it will be another WinMob touch handset. What else could it be? And we already kind of know how those fair in the market, so I can't see why being MS branded would shake things up, at all.

Maybe Windows Mobile 7 will a great deal better, whenever it ships. Have to wait and see.

You admit to being abrasive and "stir[ring] the pot", and you have posts that seem to constant make personal attacks towards other posters. I can tell you that the end result will probably be a banning or some sort. This is not a threat as I have no such authority, but if your goal, directly or indirectly, to deride threads with your pot stirring then you will be looked upon as a troll.

Perhaps you need to adjust the way you address the other posters. I guarantee that you were not attacked, and certainly not by all sides, from simply stating you own a PC. Most of the posters and readers on this site own PCs and work with PCs. I even stated on the first page that I like the Zune 2.0 software and think that Apple took some cues from the Zune 2.0 UI for the iPod. I wasn't attacked for it. I've even mentioned recently (maybe a different thread) that I think the Zune has the best non-iPod PMP ecosystem out there and I'd probably go for the Zune if Apple's offerings didn't suit my needs. I've stated it here again, but I doubt that I'll get burned by other posters for stating it, no matter how they may disagree. There is a difference between stating your opinion as fact and trying to niggle other posters with your comments. To reply in those ways is just immature and does nothing for you or anyone else here.

Finally, I see no evidence of Piot calling you a fanboy, but I see plenty of evidence of you calling others fanboys. I suggest you choose your battles. Post your rational thoughts, not your feelings, which by nature tend not to be rational. I also suggest you try to be informative with facts, which means including links or being throughout in your reasoning. I also suggest you try to make sure your opinions do not sound like facts and refrain from personal attacks as they weaken any valid argument you may have. I look forward to more balanced posts from you.

Macs have always been Apple's most profitable division. Not iPods. Obviously, their other divisions make them plenty of money. But the biggest yield comes from Mac sales.

now THIS is a good post. this is something that i can reply to without getting irritated. thank you.

as for your reaction to the Zune HD. i agree. what i really think this would be (if its even real) is a Windows Mobile 7 based Phone, but with its own cover, like the iphone software is a covered up OSX.

MS has Multi touch capability as proven since way before the iPhone with the MS surface (and all the leaks before it). so we know they could make something that "feels" the same as the iPhone. beyond that, they will copy the hardware as others have in the market when there has been a leader like the iPhone. so expect it to still have stuff like the accelorometer. after there its just software. and MS has been good at making their software work for the market lately. they have made windows 7 a lot better than Vista, Xbox 360 just got a new update that is really good, and Zune software went from pretty iffy, to better than iTunes (imo) (the new stuff is just amazing good).

anyway, im not saying this will be amazing, hell it might not even be real. but it has potential. and that is exciting.

If MS were like Apple, we'd have high expectations for them.

You are such a "banstick fanboy".

I had to say something.



I first recall seeing the forum go South when the first iPhone was announced. There was a huge influx of new posters with one lines for or against Apple or their product. Nothing of substance. Since then, it seems that whenever Apple releases or announces a new product they pop in from Digg or some other site i can't stand. Perhaps AI adding a Digg link is the reason.
downside is that as Apple grows, and you know they will, this problem will get even more pronounced. Perhaps even on an exponential level. I like this site because you can have conversations on the threads. MacRumors you can't. too many kids and too much garbage. On th flipside AI has to make their money so I take it in stride, but it is irksome.

I think that is now dominated by the iPhone, which I think held 40% non-GAAP earnings for at least one quarter. I think that people just assumed that if Apple has 8% of the Mac share and 80% of the iPod share that most of their money must come from iPods. Some people just see unit sales and not the profit per unit type when talking about Apple. It's odd, because I don't think people look at other industries that way. Do you look at Rolls Royce and think they are failure of a call company because they don't sell millions of cars like Honda? That sounds ludicrous just writing it.

Uh, anyone else considered yet that this graphic may have been related to a Zune Phone? After-all, one has been rumored for some time.

Still, I yawn at such news. The underlying issue WinMobile has always had is that it appears to be code Microsoft has quite a bit of trouble advancing. 6.5 is an absolute joke next to iPhone OS, Palm Pre, & even BlackBerry.

There is yet another obstacle for Microsoft to hurtle if they hope to break into the phone industry. The big way Microsoft makes it into the phone market now is by partnering with 3rd party hardware. If they put out their own hardware then this could hurt their relations. It'd be like them making their own computers, companies like Dell, HP, & Sony would be up in arms.

Unfortunately for Microsoft I think just about any way they look at it they are hosed. They don't have a very good rapport with public right now, they've always had shaky deals with vendors because of all the people they've stepped on to get where they are, & they are way behind the curve.

It all really gets a little tiring really, which is why I'm going to bed.

the pot needs to be stirred. that does not mean we need to say things are untrue. which i do not. i state the facts as facts, i also state my opinion as fact. i learned that as a college student, you dont go into an argument by telling your opposition that it may be correct. this does not mean that i think you are "wrong" because you state something else. but if it has not apparent logic behind it i am going to question it.

now you are actually one of the members that were posting in a section of one of the PC commercial threads where i was asked for some background info on something i stated. i believe i stated that the cost of the internals in iPhones had fallen dramatically, and someone asked for proof, i quickly replied with 3 articles that stated that the internals of the iPhone cost less than half of what they sell them for (without a contract) (meaning they are making a large profit). now we had a misunderstanding about what it all meant, but in the end it was clear what each of us were saying, and i apologized for any miscommunication.

i am not an unreasonable person. if i am banned its kind of sad. but i do not think that people that actually review my posts will believe i am a troll, i dont feel like i have anything to worry about. sure i tend to show the second side of the story, but i dont do it in the "hahaahahah appple sucks" kind of way, i actually sit back and look at both sides and try and say, ok i love apples.... but, hey, Zune aint so bad, and here is why...

there is a big difference.

Yeah, I think you're right about the iPhone being a conduit for animosity. The PC majoritarians never had to deal with an Apple that was operating from strength, and it seems to have inflamed them enough so they see the need to go forth and have at us.

Never understood it, myself. Like, I can't imagine going over to a PC discussion site and staring in about "PCs suck." Life's too short.

I realize Digg drives traffic and traffic equals money, but, lord, it's the scum of the internet. Speaking of which, interesting article at Daring Fireball re Digg's kinda shitty new "Diggbar", which seems to have stirred up a bit of a firestorm.

Oh, and I would prefer to be known as a "fanstick banboy." Or maybe a "banfan stickboy." Or maybe just "that touchy guy."

It's simply jealousy. "Apple envy." That's what it has always been.

It's like those internal e-mails at MS, between top execs like (formerly) Jim Allchin and others, saying "Why can't WE do that??" There is a culture of frustration at MS. The larger, deeper-pocketed company is being shown up time and time again by a smaller operation with a far smaller R&D budget. And they're doing amazing things, and regularly. Always something new to look forward to.

MS has some serious branding and image issues, too. They're trying to overcome an inferiority complex that by now, is fueled by the media. It has taken on a life of its own. It's sad, in a way.

And when MS' userbase is clamouring for something new, fresh, exciting to look forward to, they get yet another lousy WinMo 6.5 screenshot that looks about 5 years behind the times. They get more news about MS throwing away money trying to play with Yahoo and trying to one-up Google. They get more news that MS has rebranded their Live services (again), or that they have introduced a new service that makes the service as a whole more confusing. Or they get news that MS feels compelled to continue to allow downgrades to an 8 year old OS (talk about embarrassing.) Or they get more news about a big-ass table that might appear for business use sometime in the future, but nothing similar or smaller or more workable for consumers to play with. Or they get more news about Steve Ballmer saying something incredibly stupid and out of touch (again.)

And maybe, just maybe, if the stars are aligned just so . . . they might be lucky enough to get news about a great looking rectangle that might be a media device, that might make MS more interesting. It'll seem about 2 years too late, and probably not enough . . . but it offers hope.

If I were an MS fan I'd probably start to hate Apple too. Out of sheer frustration.

But there's always Windows 7. All the MS eggs are really in the Windows basket. Risky.

ok, Quadra is a perfect example of trolls that go after the people that are not 100% apple. why discriminate?

I certainly can't speak to every thread and interaction, but in general it look like this to me:

This is an Apple enthusiast forum. As such, it's not surprising that many (or most) of the posters would be fairly enthusiastic about Apple's products.

Having said that, many of these same people have any number of criticisms of Apple and its products. I would count myself among these.

Then there are people who, while insisting on being Apple users, don't seem to really like Apple's products much. Pretty much all of their posts are about how displeased they are with the Apple equipment they own, how inferior it is to the PC stuff they either originally or concurrently own.

Then there are the people that don't have any Apple stuff, hate Apple, think its users are poser assholes, yell fanboy a lot, and generally behave like typical internet dicks.

If you spend much time hear, it quickly becomes clear who's who. So while one poster might lament the fact that the Mini went so long without an upgrade, or that Apple doesn't make a headless iMac, or charges too much for the Pro, etc., he doesn't get messed with because, for people who are paying attention, it's clear that this is constructive criticism.

While another poster might make many of the same points, but because that poster has a history of doing little else but belittle Apple, that poster gets slapped around a bit.

Context and posting history. As more folks show up who seemingly only want to explain to us Apple users that we're pompous losers and buy our computers to compensate for our tiny dicks, or whatever, expect this to intensify. It's only human nature to circle the wagons, a bit, when under attack.

And most especially when one is being slurred with the same tiresome slurs that Mac users have endured since the days of the original Mac, and most very especially when that slurring is taking place on our little corner of the internet.

If I wanted to hear about how I am in thrall to my Lord and Master Jobs and must buy Mac products because I have Too Much Money and Too Little Self Esteem, I could go to the comments section of any tech site on the internet. Why should I have to put up with that shit here?

well, you have an assessment, but that doesn't really mean that when i do have a criticism *which has happened a lot*, that i automatically means that i dislike the product. so when i get attacked for saying that i'd like to see the iPhone's monthly bill lowered (Which has nothing to do with apple) i should not have to be attacked by a group of members just because i mentioned a weakness to owning an apple product, something that happens every time i mention a negative.

as for that specific complaint, i personally understand that the problem lies within ATT not Apple.

I beg to differ they VERY successful COPIED mac OS many years ago, and came out with Windows 98 or something like that. Now I say successful in the sense of how much money it made. Years later they are still trying to get it right, but from the money and market share end of things they very much succeeded in copying Apple.

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