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Apple's share of U.S. PC market slips on sales decline - Page 2

post #41 of 167
I would say that the netbooks fit into normal PCs rather than in a segment with ipod touch.

Sure my ipod touch is a fantastic thing and I would not want to give it up for anything, but it can in no way shape or form even come close to the useability of the netbooks.

The touch falls into a completely different segment.
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post #42 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwdav View Post

I agree - netbooks don't hurt Apple's profit at all.

Apple hurts Apples sales when they don't listen to the public and fail to put out a small formed laptop by April 2009, stubborn on glossy screens, no blu-ray. strip out firewire, and don't reduce their pricing-read MacMini.
post #43 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

I've always heard the iPod Touch and iPhone counted as part of OS percentages so I really don't understand the gripe.
Also, while netbooks may be considered a PC remember the iPhone itself was touted as the best iPod ever made- remember? Part of the confusion stems from Apple itself.

Some people may include them in installed base calculations but I have never seen them reported as PC sales. You hit my point: iPod Touches are not counted as PC's and neither should these ultra cheap and just as limited netbooks. They are both hamstrung but in different ways and neither device is a fully functional personal computer aka PC.
post #44 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Apple hurts Apples sales when they don't listen to the public and fail to put out a small formed laptop by April 2009, stubborn on glossy screens, no blu-ray. strip out firewire, and don't reduce their pricing-read MacMini.

Here we go again with Teckstudian logic.

When sales are down, you'll whine that it's because Apple is ignoring the customer and screwing everyone with high prices.

Yet when revenue is up, customer satisfaction is high, and they are doing better then their competitors like HP & Dell, you'll whine that Apple could be doing even better if they stopped screwing the customer and stop ripping everyone off.

What's the matter Teckstud? That medicated Kool-aid you've been drinking wear off?

Apple hasn't even announced their quarter results yet and you're already shooting from the hip based on an analysts conclusion? Oops.. sorry.. I keep forgetting that you're known for doing that.
post #45 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by tt92618 View Post

Sorry, I just disagree. I've used both PCs and Macs in abundance, and Apple's hardware and OS is just better, in my opinion. Most PC's do ship with more RAM, but they need it because windows memory utilization is so bad.

But even so, let's compare. HP touchPro, with a 22 inch display, 4GB Ram, 880MHZ bus, 500GB HD, and 2.0ghz duo intros at $1299. iMac with 4GB ram, 1066MHZ bus, 640GB HD, and 2.66GHZ duo is $1499. You get a larger display, faster bus, bigger hard drive, and faster CPU for $200. In fact, the iMac most comparable is the 20 inch model, which still has a faster CPU and a faster bus, but is $100 less.

And, these are just hardware comparisons - they say nothing about performance, which is just much better on the mac.

WHy is it always HP comparisons on here?

J&R NYC has a Sony Vaio 15.4" Notebook PC for $650 with these specs:


Intel Core 2 Duo T5800 2.00 GHz Processor
2MB L2 Cache, 800MHz Bus speed
3072 MB DDR2 (PC2-6400) RAM Max: 4GB
250 GB (5400RPM) SATA Hard Drive
15.4" WXGA (1280 x 800) LCD XBRITE-ECO Display
Built-in 1.3 Megapixel Webcamera and Microphone
Mobile Intel Graphics Media Accelerator 4500MHD with up to 1340MB shared Video Memory
DVD±R/RW Drive with Double Layer
Intel WiFi Link 5100AGN 802.11a/b/g/n
10/100/1000 Base-T Ethernet LAN
Built-in Memory Stick® Standard/Duo with MagicGate™ Card Reader
Built-in Secure Digital (SD) memory card slot
ExpressCard 34 Slot
4 x USB 2.0, Headphone out; Microphone-in, VGA, IEEE 1394, RJ-11 (Modem), RJ-45

We know the OS sucks but where is an Apple comparable product? Where?
Not an white iBook for $1000- Where?
post #46 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post

What's the matter Teckstud? That medicated Kool-aid you've been drinking wear off?

Apple hasn't even announced their quarter results yet and you're already shooting from the hip based on an analysts conclusion? Oops.. sorry.. I keep forgetting that you're known for doing that.

Who is the analyst stating sales figures? These are actual sales figures comparisons- can you actually read?
Pull out your Kool-aid drip and face the fact that it's stated in AI's thread title, not mine.
post #47 of 167
I know what you are saying, and plus Sony as a company is doing so well. They are making tons of money and growing every quarter. Why can't Apple follow their example


Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

J&R NYC has a Sony Vaio 15.4" Notebook PC for $650 with these specs:

We know the OS sucks but where is an Apple comparable product? Where?
Not an white iBook for $1000- Where?
post #48 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by kresh View Post

Some people may include them in installed base calculations but I have never seen them reported as PC sales. You hit my point: iPod Touches are not counted as PC's and neither should these ultra cheap and just as limited netbooks. They are both hamstrung but in different ways and neither device is a fully functional personal computer aka PC.

So then you agree that iPhones and iPod Touches should likewise not be included in percentage of OS comparisons?
post #49 of 167
What's interesting is that everyone's sales are down, the other computer makers are in much worse shape than Apple. Apple is actually doing alright, they just aren't growing as quickly year over year, but they are not loosing as badly as many others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post

When sales are down, you'll whine that it's because Apple is ignoring the customer and screwing everyone with high prices.
post #50 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

So then you agree that iPhones and iPod Touches should likewise not be included in percentage of OS comparisons?

I think you are intentionally misconstruing my words. We are talking market share which by definition is the amount sold, hence market - an area or arena in which commercial dealings are conducted . This metric measures the quantity sold not installed.

The originators of this report have decided what is included and the iPod touch is not included in this report but the netbooks are. This is the only point I am arguing which is that netbooks should not be in this metric.

The PC market share category should be for personal computers and should not include any device that is not a PC. To include netbooks is highly disingenuous. It does not tell the story of cannibalization. Is it really good news that a company is selling more widgets, but the new widgets only generate 50% of the gross income of the widget they replaced. Hey it is great news. We've added 25% more support requirements, warranty obligations but we've made a lot less money. It just seems suspect to add netbooks as it hides something important.

As to the straw man you keep building, I merely acknowledged that some people include the iPod Touch in the installed OS numbers. When AI has an article discussing the os installed base I will be happy to argue that point with you.
post #51 of 167
I hope Apple doesn't get into the Netbook business and here is why:

When the Macbook Air came out all people did was complain about what it couldn't do and what components it did not have. If Apple does a netbook everyone will complain that it can't do everything a Macbook Pro can do in a ten inch form factor.

As far as market share is concerned, if you are with Apple as an investor, you are concerned. If you are with Apple for the experience, you want OS X to have a small share so it will be left alone by the hackers and pirates. Either way, Apple is still worth millions and are not going anywhere.
post #52 of 167
None of this worries me. Everyone's market share is down.
post #53 of 167
So what.

Don't fall into the market-share myth, people.

This game is all about profits and margins, and delivering a Premium experience to the Premium end of the market, which is small to begin with. Yet Apple owns about 70% of it.
post #54 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Apple hurts Apples sales when they don't listen to the public and fail to put out a small formed laptop by April 2009, stubborn on glossy screens, no blu-ray. strip out firewire, and don't reduce their pricing-read MacMini.

I think the glossy screen thing may not be quite the consumer issue you think it to be. Most manufacturers produce exactly the same kind of screens now on higher end products, and consumers seem to like them.
post #55 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Fred 1 View Post

None of this worries me. Everyone's market share is down.

From the article, that isn't true. Though I would wager that the ones with the increased marketshare are probably down in profits over this time last year. Partly from cutting prices in this economic downturn to stay competitive on the low end and from the relative lack of profits that are gained with the netbooks that are pushing their marketshare. However, I think that HP may be pulling a fair share of its PC marketshare increase from Dell again which would be financially beneficial to HP, but to what extent I don't know.

I think Apple may be a near break even with their Mac line for this 1st calendar year quarter. When is the quarterly earning call?
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post #56 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by bloggerblog View Post

For the 1,000,000th time already, MID SIZE TOWER... sub $1,000

I'm surprised it took 27 posts for the xMac to make its appearance.

Anyone who expects a sub-$1000 midsize tower is wasting their time, but Apple does need to get something done with its pro pricing.

The gap between the highest-end iMac and the low-end Mac Pro and 24" screen combo is way too big. The Mac Pro starts at $2899 in Canada. It used to be $2399 and the low-end should be $2199 in this market. The Pro machine sales are likely where Apple is losing marketshare if anywhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Fred 1 View Post

None of this worries me. Everyone's market share is down.

Typical reaction, but way off. Recessions are where marketshare advances matter.

If Apple can gain marketshare at the expense of the others in this market, they might hit 20-25% once growth takes off again.
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post #57 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by kresh View Post

Some people may include them in installed base calculations but I have never seen them reported as PC sales. You hit my point: iPod Touches are not counted as PC's and neither should these ultra cheap and just as limited netbooks. They are both hamstrung but in different ways and neither device is a fully functional personal computer aka PC.

can you explain how a netbook is not a fully functional personal computer?
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post #58 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Fred 1 View Post

None of this worries me. Everyone's market share is down.

how can everyones share of the market come down?
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post #59 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by kresh View Post

As to the straw man you keep building, I merely acknowledged that some people include the iPod Touch in the installed OS numbers. When AI has an article discussing the os installed base I will be happy to argue that point with you.

do you have evidence about the profit margins of netbooks, or is that your own personal strawman?
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post #60 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by tt92618 View Post

I think the glossy screen thing may not be quite the consumer issue you think it to be. Most manufacturers produce exactly the same kind of screens now on higher end products, and consumers seem to like them.

True. It's really only an issue for publishers and higher-end photographers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cycomiko View Post

how can everyones share of the market come down?

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post #61 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by sidste View Post

How did Acer do it? What happened to Gateway? Oh, yea! Acer bought Gateway! I have never seen in one of these article the authors talk about acquisitions. Apple could pay cash for Dell and jump to the top of this chart.

Where is the discussion of margins?
Sales of HP and Dell total over $160B and flat. They have a combined market cap of $103B.
Sales of Apple (all products) are around $35B. They have a market cap of $104B.

Heh heh. The first post that actually advances the discussion* (for me, at least)....

So much hyperventilation, so little insight.


*I am taking your numbers at face value (but I have no reason not to).
post #62 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateKylie View Post

Actually the plastic MacBook became more affordable when it dropped to $999 while overall increase in specs (first time to have SuperDrive and later updated to 9400M Graphics).

If this is a stagnation in growth due to the recession or just further cementing the idea that Apple is purely a premium brand is yet to be known. I would however suggest to keep the plastic MacBook and consider making the entire lineup more competitive especially at the lower ends such as the Mac Mini, plastic MacBook, and the 20" iMac.

And while it did only slip 0.1% compared to last year... its still a slip when for the past few years every quarter has been growth even compared to the last (generally) and thus it shouldn't be dismisses do lightly.

You do realize we are in the worst global economy since the Great Depression? Let acer and HP have the netbooks. I think it is amazing that people are still willing to pay for a quality product. this is excellent.
post #63 of 167
2012 is here!!!

LOL its ok, it happened before many times. Apple is ok.
Apple had me at scrolling
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post #64 of 167
I thought Mac market share didn't matter to Apple, just profit margins.

(and it probably doesn't, but the author of the article probably needed something to fill space).
post #65 of 167
MacBook mini

$599
post #66 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness View Post

I thought Mac market share didn't matter to Apple, just profit margins.

(and it probably doesn't, but the author of the article probably needed something to fill space).

When it comes to Macs, Apple stays out of the bulk of the market. It's deliberate. And it makes perfect sense.
post #67 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness View Post

I thought Mac market share didn't matter to Apple, just profit margins.

(and it probably doesn't, but the author of the article probably needed something to fill space).

Marketshare does matter to Apple. I see no reason why a company wouldn't care about marketshare. They have even mentioned countless times during Special Events and Keynotes how they've significantly increased marketshare when the figures were in their favour, of course. What Apple doesn't seem to care about is gaining marketshare at the expense of losing net profit.
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post #68 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Who is the analyst stating sales figures? These are actual sales figures comparisons- can you actually read?
Pull out your Kool-aid drip and face the fact that it's stated in AI's thread title, not mine.

Uh, teckstud?

First paragraph, first sentence: market research firm Gartner said [sic] Wendesday.
Second paragraph, first sentence: the firm's preliminary data shows.
Fifth paragraph, first sentence: said Gartner principle analyst Mikako Kitagawa.

These are analyst [cough] predictions [/cough] - more commonly referred to as bullshist.

There are several great recipes available on the internet for crow if you're the least bit interested.
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post #69 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Snitch View Post

In fact, I make my living as an investor. I can do that because not only are many stockholders clueless, but they have egos to maintain that are the size of aircraft carriers. They will make the same arrogant assumptions over and over again until their money's gone... into my pocket. (Thanks!)

OMG! You're the guy in the E*TRADE ad!

You know.... the one that almost has an orgasm because he bought stocks in [gasp!] Hong Kong?
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post #70 of 167
Is there any surprise when Apple lets AT&T rape us over prices which has effected sales. No Mid-Size tower in the $800 range has had to cost them a lot of $$$. Finally, not entering the netbook market with a "Fair Priced" mini-pc has I'm sure cost them even more millions.. Any wonder they aren't getting all the market share they could.. Oh, did I forget to mention the Apple tax that's getting bigger & bigger. That alone has had to cost them a billion $$ in sales..
post #71 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by cycomiko View Post

do you have evidence about the profit margins of netbooks, or is that your own personal strawman?

"The margin on netbooks is negligible. It is not something we will focus heavily on," says Paul Parrish, UK managing director of hardware maker Fujitsu Siemens Computers (FSC). Story Link

This is bad news for PC companies, says Barron's, as netbook sales could cannibalize the fatter profit margins attached to regular laptops. Story Link


Even the vendors to the netbook OEM face margin issues:

Low Atom margins hurt Intel again, says analyst Story Link




Quote:
Originally Posted by cycomiko View Post

can you explain how a netbook is not a fully functional personal computer?

The most common justification for people people buying a netbook is that they will only use them for surfing and email as a companion for their PC. I don't think you really need a feature by feature comparison to realize that a netbook is not a fully functional PC.

I mean really, the trajectory for the Space Shuttle rendezvousing with the International Space Station can be figured out by hand using a pencil and paper, does that make the pencil and paper a PC as well? Yes the netbook can do some of the things a PC can, but it is surely not a replacement for the PC, and if it can't be a replacement offering the same functionality why call it a PC?

Imagine General Motors holding a press conference. After much cheering and back patting they release a statement that they have sold 2 million more vehicles this quarter versus a year ago. Upon reading the small print you see that they have sold 1 million less cars and 1 million less trucks but have sold 4 million of the new vehicle (a Moped) in place of the lost car and truck sales. This is exactly what the PC manufacturers are doing!
post #72 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by italiankid View Post

Considering that only 2 of the 5 makers reported a decline... That isn't great news for Apple or Dell.

Apple is losing ground.

Those MS Ads are working hahaha

You know, your trolling is almost getting tiresome. Almost.


Personally I don't care about Apples market share, as long as they keep producing their products.
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post #73 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by kresh View Post

The most common justification for people people buying a netbook is that they will only use them for surfing and email as a companion for their PC. I don't think you really need a feature by feature comparison to realize that a netbook is not a fully functional PC.

I mean really, the trajectory for the Space Shuttle rendezvousing with the International Space Station can be figured out by hand using a pencil and paper, does that make the pencil and paper a PC as well? Yes the netbook can do some of the things a PC can, but it is surely not a replacement for the PC, and if it can't be a replacement offering the same functionality why call it a PC?

What? A netbook IS a PC. They are functionally the same. Unless you can provide some PC functions that a netbook can't perform, of course, other than your nonsensical Space Shuttle metaphor.
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post #74 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

We know the OS sucks but where is an Apple comparable product? Where?
Not an white iBook for $1000- Where?

HERE.
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post #75 of 167
This is a dumb story.
Market share should be measured in dollars spent - not in units shipped.

C.
post #76 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by zunx View Post

Apple does want to increase market share. Any company wants it. But to make the iTablet a best-seller, it must be small (if possible, pocketable) and not more than 300 to 400 g or so. Hints:

OQO model 2+
http://www.oqo.com

Isn't OQO on the verge of financial collapse?

Small screens require specialized mobile applications.
Desktop OS and desktop applications need large screens. I'd like something bigger than 30"

Unless there is something radical about it, I don't see a small tablet selling to anyone outside a Star Trek fan group.

C.
post #77 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by sidste View Post

How did Acer do it? What happened to Gateway? Oh, yea! Acer bought Gateway! I have never seen in one of these article the authors talk about acquisitions. Apple could pay cash for Dell and jump to the top of this chart.

Where is the discussion of margins?
Sales of HP and Dell total over $160B and flat. They have a combined market cap of $103B.
Sales of Apple (all products) are around $35B. They have a market cap of $104B.

It's over $40 Billion now, but I get your drift.
post #78 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by kresh View Post

The most common justification for people people buying a netbook is that they will only use them for surfing and email as a companion for their PC. I don't think you really need a feature by feature comparison to realize that a netbook is not a fully functional PC.

I mean really, the trajectory for the Space Shuttle rendezvousing with the International Space Station can be figured out by hand using a pencil and paper, does that make the pencil and paper a PC as well? Yes the netbook can do some of the things a PC can, but it is surely not a replacement for the PC, and if it can't be a replacement offering the same functionality why call it a PC?

Imagine General Motors holding a press conference. After much cheering and back patting they release a statement that they have sold 2 million more vehicles this quarter versus a year ago. Upon reading the small print you see that they have sold 1 million less cars and 1 million less trucks but have sold 4 million of the new vehicle (a Moped) in place of the lost car and truck sales. This is exactly what the PC manufacturers are doing!

Nice analogy, but netbooks are not mopeds.

With a netbook, you can read email, surf the net (with all the frills - flash, silverlight, AJAX just works), run any office suite - MS, Open. You can run photoshop very well - computers were powerful enough for that that it didn't matter any more when they crossed the 1GHz barrier. You can also run iTunes, VLC, run development environments, read or edit PDFs. In short you can do anything you use a laptop for.

They're not always the right tool for the job. Sometimes you need a bigger screen, or maybe you do a lot of typing and prefer a bigger keyboard. Sometimes you want a lot of power, memory and bandwidth to run video editing. All those things will run on a netbook, but probably not well enough.

The actual set of things you can do with a laptop and can't do with a netbook is actually very small. So netbooks to notebooks is not mopeds to cars. It's compact cars to SUVs.

(can't wait for my kid to grow out of the child safety seat so that she stops kicking me in the back when I drive her. Doesn't make my Fiat Punto a non-functional car)
post #79 of 167
Motor vehicles are poor analogies for computers, but I'll play. Mopeds and scooters can dart and weave swiftly through traffic, much as a netbook user can weave around crowds carrying their laptop bags. At the cafe, a netbook user will be working and checking their email before I've got my MacBook Pro out of it's (heavy) backpack.

I'm seeing more and more netbooks used at the cafes in the college town where I live, and none of them have a glowing Apple logo.
post #80 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by wealthychef View Post

Unless there is something radical about it, I don't see a small tablet selling to anyone outside a Star Trek fan group.C.

There is. See my previous post: "The idea is NOT to work on the device".
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