or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › Implications of th Secession of Texas
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Implications of th Secession of Texas - Page 2

post #41 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by screener View Post

The rule of law is so passe, lets shoot first.

Clearly the rule of law has been abandoned by both Bush and Obama. Our Constitution is in tatters, we are being crushed under taxation without representation (in the form of the bailouts)... I think the poo is going to really start hitting the fan and soon. Another year or so of this 'recession' will foment serious discontent among the ignored common folks.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

Reply

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

Reply
post #42 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post


What do you want? A decision from the United States Supreme Court? World Court? What?

Oh I don't know.
In a democratic country there's usually a vote or referendum on an issue.

Is a vote scheduled so that citizens can voice their opinion on secession or bypass the process and force those against it, maybe the majority, to go along with it.
post #43 of 146
Why didn't we get to vote on the bailouts?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #44 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by screener View Post

Oh I don't know.
In a democratic country there's usually a vote or referendum on an issue.

Is a vote scheduled so that citizens can voice their opinion on secession or bypass the process and force those against it, maybe the majority, to go along with it.

Now you're changing the argument. Before you were suggesting that the Congress and Supreme Court basically declared secession illegal. Now you are talking about how such a movement come into being. Might that happen by a vote within the state seeking secession? Sure. Seems reasonable. But at the point when the people of the state choose to secede and then take the action to do so the "legal" question is settled.

Interestingly, on a related note, I recently read something that suggested that popular support for the American secession from Britain was only about 20% or so. I was shocked that the level was so low.
post #45 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

Interestingly, on a related note, I recently read something that suggested that popular support for the American secession from Britain was only about 20% or so. I was shocked that the level was so low.

I had actually read that somewhere a while back, too.

Makes the whole advent of the Revolution and subsequent establishment as an independent nation that much more remarkable.

The population of Texas alone (25 million) accounts for around 8% of the total U.S. population (304 million).

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #46 of 146
So everyone in here is in agreement? A violent American versus American secession of Texas from the United States union is a "good thing" for you folks? Military versus militia? Red blooded American fighting red blooded American?

I'm not sure what concerns me more. The cavalier attitude you guys have about it? Or that you think it's a good idea?
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
post #47 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

A violent American versus American secession of Texas from the United States union is a "good thing" for you folks?

No. But if a state chooses to peacefully secede from the United States, it's most likely to be the federal government that will make it violent.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

I'm not sure what concerns me more. The cavalier attitude you guys have about it? Or that you think it's a good idea?

Be gone with your straw man arguments.
post #48 of 146
This is the most stupid idea I've ever heard! Let em' succeed! Isolated little Texas would be sorry in triplicate for this action. No government aid. And how would commerce with the outside world continue?

And Chuck Norris!

What a joke! Everyone would leave because the the state would be broke. Mexico would take over!

Yeah! This is really going to happen!

Next all of the Republicans will want to succeed from the Union because they lost the election!

Oops! I said it again!

Don't you just love it when someone is doing something wrong and they refuse to see it. Then they keep digging themselves deeper and deeper?

I imagine this childish behavior won't go much past Obama's first year in office. After about a year of bad press I think they'll see it's not working and actually making things worse.
Don't get me wrong though. They''ll still be whinning.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #49 of 146
Nobody here is advocating violent secession. But I think we agree that if there is violence involved, it will be initiated by a federal government unwilling to allow the secession.

It would be very easy for the feds to just declare anyone in favor of secession a traitor.

Is liberty worth it? I would argue that those who have died in defense of it--and those who have died due to the lack of it--would say yes.

"The tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-- Thomas Jefferson

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #50 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Nobody here is advocating violent secession. But I think we agree that if there is violence involved, it will be initiated by a federal government unwilling to allow the secession.

It would be very easy for the feds to just declare anyone in favor of secession a traitor.

Is liberty worth it? I would argue that those who have died in defense of it--and those who have died due to the lack of it--would say yes.

"The tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-- Thomas Jefferson

Quote:
"The tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-- Thomas Jefferson

[/QUOTE]


That's why we don't have another George Bush clone this time!
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #51 of 146


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

No government aid.

You missed the part where Texas is determined to be a net tax donor to the federal government.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

And how would commerce with the outside world continue?

By, you know, trading with them.



Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

the state would be broke.

How do you figure?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Mexico would take over!

Really? Mexico can't even handle itself!


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Don't you just love it when someone is doing something wrong and they refuse to see it. Then they keep digging themselves deeper and deeper?

Actually I don't when it will cause me pain, but alas, he's the President so I guess I'll have to live with it for now.
post #52 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post





You missed the part where Texas is determined to be a net tax donor to the federal government.




By, you know, trading with them.





How do you figure?




Really? Mexico can't even handle itself!




Actually I don't when it will cause me pain, but alas, he's the President so I guess I'll have to live with it for now.

Honestly do you really picture this happening? Really?

About this:

Quote:
Actually I don't when it will cause me pain, but alas, he's the President so I guess I'll have to live with it for now

You do want your party back in the Whitehouse someday don't you?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #53 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

This is the most stupid idea I've ever heard! Let em' succeed! Isolated little Texas would be sorry in triplicate for this action. No government aid. And how would commerce with the outside world continue?

And Chuck Norris!

What a joke! Everyone would leave because the the state would be broke. Mexico would take over!

Yeah! This is really going to happen!

Next all of the Republicans will want to succeed from the Union because they lost the election!

Oops! I said it again!

Don't you just love it when someone is doing something wrong and they refuse to see it. Then they keep digging themselves deeper and deeper?

I imagine this childish behavior won't go much past Obama's first year in office.
Don't get me wrong though. They''ll still be whinning.


Oh my, where do I even begin.

Texas is the 2nd largest state in the union in terms of land area with plentiful natural resources. It has a population of 25 million. They have the resources to become self-sustainable, if need be. But I would think other nations would welcome the opportunity to trade with them, considering:

From your beloved Wikipedia:

"In the fourth quarter of 2006, Texas had a gross state product of $1.09 trillion, the second highest in the U.S. Gross state product per capita as of 2005 was $42,975. The state holds the most Fortune 500 company headquarters in the United States."

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #54 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Honestly do you really picture this happening? Really?

No.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

You do want your party back in the Whitehouse someday don't you?

Ohhhh...I thought "Don't you just love it when someone is doing something wrong and they refuse to see it. Then they keep digging themselves deeper and deeper?" was referring to Obama.
post #55 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

No.




Ohhhh...I thought "Don't you just love it when someone is doing something wrong and they refuse to see it. Then they keep digging themselves deeper and deeper?" was referring to Obama.

Yeah but he's in the Whitehouse! The Republicans aren't!

Oops! I've said it again!

Sorry but facts are facts!
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #56 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Oh my, where do I even begin.

Texas is the 2nd largest state in the union in terms of land area with plentiful natural resources. It has a population of 25 million. They have the resources to become self-sustainable, if need be. But I would think other nations would welcome the opportunity to trade with them, considering:

From your beloved Wikipedia:

"In the fourth quarter of 2006, Texas had a gross state product of $1.09 trillion, the second highest in the U.S. Gross state product per capita as of 2005 was $42,975. The state holds the most Fortune 500 company headquarters in the United States."

Ok. How are they going to come and go?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #57 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Oh my, where do I even begin.

Texas is the 2nd largest state in the union in terms of land area with plentiful natural resources. It has a population of 25 million. They have the resources to become self-sustainable, if need be. But I would think other nations would welcome the opportunity to trade with them, considering:

From your beloved Wikipedia:

"In the fourth quarter of 2006, Texas had a gross state product of $1.09 trillion, the second highest in the U.S. Gross state product per capita as of 2005 was $42,975. The state holds the most Fortune 500 company headquarters in the United States."

That's not to mention that they might experiment with lower tax and regulatory burdens to attract businesses away from the U.S.

The biggest challenge would not be economic but military. The federal government would most certainly unleash their violence upon the renegade state.
post #58 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

That's not to mention that they might experiment with lower tax and regulatory burdens to attract businesses away from the U.S.

The biggest challenge would not be economic but military. The federal government would most certainly unleash their violence upon the renegade state.

No. They'd just refuse all access.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #59 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Ok. How are they going to come and go?

By air. By water.

post #60 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

No. They'd just refuse all access.

You're saying that the federal government would not attack a seceding state?
post #61 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

By air. By water.


When we've blockaded other countries much more distant that been a problem for them hasn't it?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #62 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

You're saying that the federal government would not attack a seceding state?

Probably not. At least at first. They'd just cut them off from the outside world. Let's see how far does air space and water go out for them? 12 miles?

Other countries wouldn't want to get involved so they'd probably go along with it. It's a lose / lose situation for Texans.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #63 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

When we've blockaded other countries much more distant that been a problem for them hasn't it?

But it is violence or the threat thereof that is what makes a blockade work, so my argument still stands. They would have to actually attack (or threaten to) in order to practically enforce such a thing.

I can just imagine the PR win for the U.S. government by attempting to blockade, embargo, attack and starve the people of Texas (many of whom will likely have relatives in the remaining U.S.)
post #64 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

But it is violence or the threat thereof that is what makes a blockade work, so my argument still stands. They would have to actually attack (or threaten to) in order to practically enforce such a thing.

I can just imagine the PR win for the U.S. government by attempting to blockade, embargo, attack and starve the people of Texas (many of whom will likely have relatives in the remaining U.S.)

People would look at Texas as incredibly dumb for doing this. I really don't think it would get that far or happen at all for the obvious reasons we've been discussing. If they think their lot is bad now........
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #65 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Other countries wouldn't want to get involved so they'd probably go along with it. It's a lose lose situation for Texans.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. If things escalated to the point that the feds resorted to a military blockade, I think there would be other states that would secede and lend aid to Texas. Other countries might side with Texas, too.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #66 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

People would look at Texas as incredibly dumb for doing this. I really don't think it would get that far or happen at all for the obvious reasons we've been discussing. If they think their lot is bad now........

It sounds like you're trying to convince yourself more than you're trying to convince us.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #67 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I wouldn't be so sure about that. If things escalated to the point that the feds resorted to a military blockade, I think there would be other states that would secede and lend aid to Texas. Other countries might side with Texas, too.

Which? Alaska..
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
post #68 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Which? Alaska..

We've mentioned several other states in this thread. Alaska is among them, yes.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #69 of 146
I agree that the federal government's hatred of freedom (not to mention the corresponding public opinion) would make it very difficult for any state to secede. As I mentioned in the other thread, they still have allowed Iraq and Afghanistan to secede and Obama has sent even more troops into Afghanistan to ensure continued to compliance with U.S. wishes.
post #70 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

Be gone with your straw man arguments.

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. Please use the term correctly. Because I'm certainly not misrepresenting your position. You're firmly in the box that Texas should secede because "I would be supportive of it".
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
post #71 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

I agree that the federal government's hatred of freedom (not to mention the corresponding public opinion) would make it very difficult for any state to secede. As I mentioned in the other thread, they still have allowed Iraq and Afghanistan to secede and Obama has sent even more troops into Afghanistan to ensure continued to compliance with U.S. wishes.

Man you're quick! I must have hit a nerve. Are you sure you aren't jubelum or Chris Culla?

They were just like this and for all I know one in the same.

And the Federal Govermant doesn't hate freedom But it seems like the Neocons do.

That's why they lost the......well you know.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #72 of 146
Perhaps he meant "red herring"? That would certainly apply.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #73 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Perhaps he meant "red herring"? That would certainly apply.

Red herrings, Mcguffins, or distractions from the reality are the Neocon's specialty. That was proven during the Bush years.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #74 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.

Which is what you've done.

You are suggesting that I and others are advocating a violent secession and that we're OK with such violence. I don't think anyone has said that. At best I've acknowledged that violence is a likely possibility. But I could be wrong. The federal government could grow a conscience and choose not to attack.
post #75 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Don't you just love it when someone is doing something wrong and they refuse to see it. Then they keep digging themselves deeper and deeper?

What do you think Republicans would say if a Democrat proposed succession from the union? They'd shove their fucking nose in it, is what they'd do!

Well, I'm glad to know which of our Republicans friends are Anti-America. Because you can't get more anti-America then hoping and wishing for secession.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
post #76 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

And the Federal Govermant doesn't hate freedom

Sure they do (the evidence is abundant), and you've as much as admitted it by your suggestion that they would resort to force and violence in order to prevent a state (like Texas) from peacefully removing itself from its authority and control.
post #77 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

Which is what you've done.

You are suggesting that I and others are advocating a violent secession and that we're OK with such violence. I don't think anyone has said that. At best I've acknowledged that violence is a likely possibility. But I could be wrong. The federal government could grow a conscience and choose not to attack.

So quite simply are you in favor of sucession?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #78 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

We've mentioned several other states in this thread. Alaska is among them, yes.

So no countries outside of seceding states. What about Mexico, China and Europe? I can't see too many foreign nations wanting to piss off the USA for the sake of a few states. Isn't that going to hit those states hard financially and lead to long-term unemployment and civil unrest.

Seems self-defeating!
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
post #79 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

Which is what you've done.

You are suggesting that I and others are advocating a violent secession and that we're OK with such violence. I don't think anyone has said that. At best I've acknowledged that violence is a likely possibility. But I could be wrong. The federal government could grow a conscience and choose not to attack.

You can't secede from the union without violence. Period. There is no "free" secession from any union without push-back. What form do you think the U.S. government would use against a state going rogue?
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
post #80 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

So no countries outside of seceding states. What about Mexico, China and Europe? I can't see too many foreign nations wanting to piss off the USA for the sake of a few states. Isn't that going to hit those states hard financially and lead to long-term unemployment and civil unrest.

Seems self-defeating!

Exactly.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: PoliticalOutsider
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › Implications of th Secession of Texas