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Implications of th Secession of Texas - Page 3

post #81 of 146
4/16/09 at 1:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Nobody here is advocating violent secession. But I think we agree that if there is violence involved, it will be initiated by a federal government unwilling to allow the secession.

See how clever jazz is being here. The act of secession is perfectly cool. But if violence is involved it's all the federal government's fault. Not Texas fault for, you know, FUCKING SECEDING!

You guys crack me up with your hypocritical bullshit.
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post #82 of 146
4/16/09 at 1:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

You can't secede from the union without violence. Period. There is no "free" secession from any union without push-back.

This is an issue of probability but not absolute logical certainty. In other words, it is probable that violence will be involved, but it need not be so for certain. The choice would be in the hands of the federal government.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

What form do you think the U.S. government would use against a state going rogue?

I think, like jimmac suggested, it would begin as a blockade on land, water and air (no-fly zone).
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post #83 of 146
4/16/09 at 1:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

That's not to mention that they might experiment with lower tax and regulatory burdens to attract businesses away from the U.S.

You know it's funny. Way back I mentioned that I was glad to take advantage of some tax benefits from shooting a movie in Georgia. And a bunch of conservatives on this board jumped down my throat for promoting "corporate welfare" and how that was bullshit.

Now, I suspect that the reason they jumped down my throat was because it was for a "movie" production. And you know what that means? Hollywood. And fuck Hollywood, right.

But I'm glad to see that you support welfare for corporations.
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post #84 of 146
4/16/09 at 1:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

See how clever jazz is being here. The act of secession is perfectly cool. But if violence is involved it's all the federal government's fault. Not Texas fault for, you know, FUCKING SECEDING!

You guys crack me up with your hypocritical bullshit.

Exactly.
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post #85 of 146
4/16/09 at 1:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

So quite simply are you in favor of sucession?

Because I believe people have a right to disassociate from a higher political and governing authority. Furthermore, I believe they have a duty to do so if they believe that authority has become morally corrupt and tyrannical.
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post #86 of 146
4/16/09 at 1:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

This is an issue of probability but not absolute logical certainty. In other words, it is probable that violence will be involved, but it need not be so for certain. The choice would be in the hands of the federal government.




I think, like jimmac suggested, it would begin as a blockade on land, water and air (no-fly zone).

Begin and end there. But I don't even think this is a real probability for the reasons already discussed.
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post #87 of 146
4/16/09 at 1:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

Because I believe people have a right to disassociate from a higher political and governing authority. Furthermore, I believe they have a duty to do so if they believe that authority has become morally corrupt and tyrannical.

In other words in this instance specifically " Yes " right?
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post #88 of 146
4/16/09 at 1:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

See how clever jazz is being here. The act of secession is perfectly cool. But if violence is involved it's all the federal government's fault. Not Texas fault for, you know, FUCKING SECEDING!

You guys crack me up with your hypocritical bullshit.

You seem to be blind to the fallacy in your thinking. Let's go back to the "club" example.

You are in a club of some kind. I am leading that club. You decide (as you naturally would since I'm leading it) that you no longer wish to be part of the club. Maybe I have acted badly toward you. Maybe I have broken some agreement that bound us together in this club. You say, "I'm out." I say "No you're not!" You say "Bye." I pull out my gun and shoot you.

Who's responsible for the violence?
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post #89 of 146
4/16/09 at 1:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

I agree that the federal government's hatred of freedom ...

So you're equating the United States government with terrorists? Nice. Very telling about what kind of an American you really are.
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post #90 of 146
4/16/09 at 1:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

In other words " Yes " right?

Yes. Sorry, I misread your question as asking me why I was in favor of it. My apologies.
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post #91 of 146
4/16/09 at 1:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

But I'm glad to see that you support welfare for corporations.

No I don't. I support lower taxation for everyone.
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post #92 of 146
4/16/09 at 1:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

You seem to be blind to the fallacy in your thinking. Let's go back to the "club" example.

You are in a club of some kind. I am leading that club. You decide (as you naturally would since I'm leading it) that you no longer wish to be part of the club. Maybe I have acted badly toward you. Maybe I have broken some agreement that bound us together in this club. You say, "I'm out." I say "No you're not!" You say "Bye." I pull out my gun and shoot you.

Who's responsible for the violence?

Bad microcosmic analogy. Millions of people vs a few for one thing. In this club they'd simply revoke you benifits of being a member.

What would happen is you'd still insist on your benifits, get vilolent about it, then the police would come and arrest you. Shoot you if you resisted.
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post #93 of 146
4/16/09 at 2:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Bad microcosmic analogy. Millions of people vs a few for one thing. In this club they'd simply revoke you benifits of being a member.

what would happen is you'd insist on your benifits, get vilolent about it, then the police would come and arrest you. Shoot you if you resisted.

Are you going to answer his question?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #94 of 146
4/16/09 at 2:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

So you're equating the United States government with terrorists? Nice. Very telling about what kind of an American you really are.

Yes, for some of its actions certainly. Yes it does.
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post #95 of 146
4/16/09 at 2:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

This is an issue of probability but not absolute logical certainty. In other words, it is probable that violence will be involved, but it need not be so for certain. The choice would be in the hands of the federal government.

So you're basically admitting that your secession theory takes place in a vacuum. Because "reality" certainly doesn't play into it very well. However, you do kinda admit that a violent push back the U.S. government would be required for any state that decides to go rogue and become anti-American.

And we don't like Anti-Americanism in this country, do we? You can't get more Anti-American than saying "Screw you we're outta here."

I love how you're cool with your party tearing the country apart simply because you're mad at AIG an BofA.
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post #96 of 146
4/16/09 at 2:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Are you going to answer his question?

But in my logical extension of this bad analogy I think I have. In that senerio who pulled the gun first?
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post #97 of 146
4/16/09 at 2:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

Yes, for some of its actions certainly. Yes it does.

WOW!

And this wasn't happening during the Bush years right?

Just checking.
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post #98 of 146
4/16/09 at 2:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

So you're basically admitting that your secession theory takes place in a vacuum.

No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

However, you do kinda admit that a violent push back the U.S. government would be required for any state that decides to go rogue and become anti-American.

No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

I love how you're cool with your party...

What party is that?
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post #99 of 146
4/16/09 at 2:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

First, I think a fairly convincing argument can be made that the federal government has abandoned the rule of law.

Second, I don't see anyone suggestion "shoot first", but I do imagine any state that chose to peacefully seceded would be shot at and would have the right to defend themselves (with arms if necessary).

Quote:
First, I think a fairly convincing argument can be made that the federal government has abandoned the rule of law.


You must be talking about the last administration?

Quote:
but I do imagine any state that chose to peacefully seceded would be shot [i]at[/i

But you just agreed it would probably start with a blockade?
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post #100 of 146
4/16/09 at 2:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

And this wasn't happening during the Bush years right?

I never said it wasn't.
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post #101 of 146
4/16/09 at 2:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

No I don't. I support lower taxation for everyone.

So how do you pay for everything? Voluntary "donations"?

Back in the day when we didn't have taxes we didn't build prisons and insane asylums and hospitals and clean water and garbage pickup and sanitation and street lights and roads and side-walks and parks and stuff we truly take for granted today.

But oh well. Good luck with that.
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post #102 of 146
4/16/09 at 2:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

You must be talking about the last administration.

I didn't see any mention of a specific administration. Did you?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #103 of 146
4/16/09 at 2:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

You must be talking about the last administration.

Yes. And the current one as well.
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post #104 of 146
4/16/09 at 2:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

Yes, for some of its actions certainly. Yes it does.

Wow. You're country could've really used your help during the last eight years. Where were you?
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post #105 of 146
4/16/09 at 2:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

Back in the day when we didn't have taxes we didn't build prisons and insane asylums and hospitals and clean water and garbage pickup and sanitation and street lights and roads and side-walks and parks and stuff we truly take for granted today.

Utterly false.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #106 of 146
4/16/09 at 2:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I didn't see any mention of a specific administration. Did you?

No. It was a question I posed. That's ok isn't it?
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post #107 of 146
4/16/09 at 2:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Utterly false.

The general infrastructure and sanitation of the United States is superior in every single way thanks to public works projects in every city, country and states of this union PAID FOR BY TAXES.
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post #108 of 146
4/16/09 at 2:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Utterly false.


This is where I always had a problem with the Libertarians when I was one back in the 70's.

Their explainations always fell a little short on how this would be accomplished without taxes.
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post #109 of 146
4/16/09 at 2:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

No. It was a question I posed. That's ok isn't it?

It was a question after you edited it to be so. Originally it was a statement.

Sorry for my apparent misunderstanding.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #110 of 146
4/16/09 at 2:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

It was a question after you edited it to be so. Originally it was a statement.

Sorry for my apparent misunderstanding.


I added a question mark. I think you understood.
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post #111 of 146
4/16/09 at 2:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

The general infrastructure and sanitation of the United States is superior in every single way thanks to public works projects in every city, country and states of this union PAID FOR BY TAXES.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

This is where I always had a problem with the Libertarians when I was one back in the 70's.

Their explainations always fell a little short on how this would be accomplished without taxes.

I was referring to his untrue statement that before taxes we had none of the things he mentioned.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #112 of 146
4/16/09 at 2:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I was referring to his untrue statement that before taxes we had none of the things he mentioned.

I never said "none".
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post #113 of 146
4/16/09 at 3:38pm
It's mind-boggling to think of the repercussions of a state (like Texas) seceeding.

What would happen to all the U.S. military installations? Would they be handed over to the state, or systematically dismantled/destroyed and removed?

What about military personnel who are residents of the state that is seceeding? Would they be allowed to leave the U.S. military and join the defence force of the seceeding state?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #114 of 146
4/16/09 at 4:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

It's mind-boggling to think of the repercussions of a state (like Texas) seceeding.

What would happen to all the U.S. military installations? Would they be handed over to the state, or systematically dismantled/destroyed and removed?

What about military personnel who are residents of the state that is seceeding? Would they be allowed to leave the U.S. military and join the defence force of the seceeding state?

Removed. They're the property of the U.S. government. Not Texas.
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post #115 of 146
4/16/09 at 4:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Removed. They're the property of the U.S. government. Not Texas.

But see, this is the logic of extremist paranoids - they see the US as an occupying force.

Not that their own ideas are derailed by selfishness and fear and delusions of radical individualism -

Paranoia is so comforting, especially when it has such an obvious enemy and is grounded in an objective and easy hatred and fear.
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post #116 of 146
4/16/09 at 4:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfflam View Post

But see, this is the logic of extremist paranoids - they see the US as an occupying force.

Not that their own ideas are derailed by selfishness and fear and delusions of radical individualism -

Paranoia is so comforting, especially when it has such an obvious enemy and is grounded in an objective and easy hatred and fear.

Yes I know. We've had 8 long years of that and some still don't get it.
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post #117 of 146
4/16/09 at 4:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfflam View Post

But see, this is the logic of extremist paranoids - they see the US as an occupying force.

Not that their own ideas are derailed by selfishness and fear and delusions of radical individualism -

Paranoia is so comforting, especially when it has such an obvious enemy and is grounded in an objective and easy hatred and fear.

What must be comforting to you is to dismiss those you disagree with as paranoid, hateful, extremist, selfish, delusional and fearful. At least I hope it's comforting for you, because it doesn't do anything to further your argument (whatever that may be). One thing's for sure is that it likely prevents you from actually examining and thinking about what they say, so it's easier as well.
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post #118 of 146
4/16/09 at 4:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

Wow. You're country could've really used your help during the last eight years. Where were you?

Posting under a different name spewing nutty ideas.
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post #119 of 146
4/16/09 at 4:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

What must be comforting to you is to dismiss those you disagree with as paranoid, hateful, extremist, selfish, delusional and fearful. At least I hope it's comforting for you, because it doesn't do anything to further your argument (whatever that may be). One thing's for sure is that it likely prevents you from actually examining and thinking about what they say, so it's easier as well.

Well if sounds like, looks like, smells like..........

Or if the shoe fits.........
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post #120 of 146
4/16/09 at 5:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

What must be comforting to you is to dismiss those you disagree with as paranoid, hateful, extremist, selfish, delusional and fearful. At least I hope it's comforting for you, because it doesn't do anything to further your argument (whatever that may be). One thing's for sure is that it likely prevents you from actually examining and thinking about what they say, so it's easier as well.

Nothing says "I'm a patriotic American" than threatening to leave America, right? Maybe we can divert federal dollars going to Texas and Georgia and give them to loyal Americans.
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