Apple responds to Microsoft ads: "a PC is no bargain" - Page 4

Agreed. At the end of the day, this is the inescapable truth.

What, are you his agent now? Not everything people do in their career is just about the money. Sometimes it is just damn fun to do, regardless of the coin of the realm.

Yes, "much worse" is what I said. Just read some of Ars Technica's review on Leopard and you probably get the glimpse of what I'm trying to say. (Not that I totally agree with the whole article.)

Also, the color contrast used in Leopard and recent iTunes is pretty messed up, many times making the selected object less obvious while making the unselected obvious. Take this snapshot in this link as one of the examples how Apple has messed up the UI design. If you still can't tell what's wrong with the snapshot, then I'm not going to argue with you further.

Isn't that a screen shot of the PC version of iTunes?

Does that matter? After all, it is Apple's fault for bringing that Leopard's UI crap to iTunes.

I don't see how the implementation of a particular app on another platform is an indictment of the originating OS.

Is how Office looks on a Mac a problem for XP or Vista?

The extra cost of programs in Windows was something I had completely forgot about after using a mac for a few years. I recently built a PC because Apple didn't have what I wanted (HTPC with blu-ray and gaming capabilities). I was quickly re-introduced to the concept. The only program that will play blu-rays on my pc is the power dvd player that came with my blu-ray drive, but it wont output 5.1 sound unless you spend $100 on the "pro" version. Given macs don't do blu-rays right now, but when they do, I wont need to spend $100 to get a player with full functionality. When I switched to a mac, noticed my pirating went way down. I am remembering why now, and it has little to do with me becoming more honest. I find that macs typically have what you need or there is an excellent free program that can be downloaded, more so than with windows.

Then there was the whole problem with having to find the 64 bit codecs for windows media player so I could actually watch my ripped dvd's in media center. That wasn't a cost problem, but it was a pain. The need more codecs installed standard.

I suppose living in the real world is posting over 8K on Apple Insider. True I am new to the forum but not to the real world.

Interestingly I am being criticized by a fellow who claims I am not using facts on this forum, and he himself provides nothing but insults.

And anyone proud to have the inside "handle" on forums probably does live in their mother's basement. That isn't a knock on your intelligence just on your "real" world experience.

So if you aren't a "fanboy" what are you. Are you posting anywhere but here. If so you must have over 20,000 posts. So much for the real world fanboy.

Dude, that's an iTunes Store snapshot. iTunes Store displayed on Mac and PC look 99% the same if not all the same. Don't you know that the contents of iTunes Store are web based? That makes your example of Microsoft Office totally inappropriate.

It seems to me that you don't know what the problem of the snapshot is. If you know, then you should be able to see the same crappy UI element that is on Leopard.

I didn't know PC was a software ... its a news to me..

OK, after hunting around for a while I was able to reproduce the somewhat special case of an iTunes Store file with both video and audio components, which gives you the unfortunate darker active tab.

However, on the general subject of "How the Leopard UI is going to hell in a handbasket", this seems pretty slight.

Um... maybe because every HP/Dell/Sony/... comes with preconfigured Windows, license paid to Microsoft by manufacturer (and built in the price)..?

Or maybe because MS is advertising platform..? XP, Vista, W7... doesn't really matter, same hardware, same software (OS aside) will work on any..?

Eventually, it is an ad, and as such it is not necessary completely true, or completely realistic, or... when you think of it, Apple was advertising Mac computers, yet majority of their ads were boiling down to OSX vs. Windows. Reason simple - ad that would start with "Hi, I'm a Mac and I have 1GB of RAM and dual core CPU for only $1200", followed by "And I am a PC, with 4GB of RAM and Quad core for only $800" wouldn't sell too much boxes, now, would it..?

Same thing the other way around - MS knows Apple can compete on software level, so they put emphasis on a level where Mac is in a bit bigger trouble - hardware.

It is not just software, or just hardware advertising war - it is a platform war. Mac platform is, coincidently, supported by Apple on both hardware and OS level, while PC platform is supported by a "syndicate" with MS and hardware manufacturers; I don't see anything illogical in the fact that MS has formed common front with their business allies. If Apple grows stronger, they all lose. If they reduce or even stop Apple's market share growth, they all win.

I know you wrote it, I just don't agree with it. And I also don't really care what Ars Technica has to say either.

No point in arguing further, I added you to my ignore list, along with Teckdud and Italianskid.

That is hardly true. User who is happy with XP has no reason to change laptop to one capable of running Vista; unless he is not into "I must have latest and greatest" life philosophy, he can stick with old hardware for quite some time.

Hardware itself, again from my experience, is nowadays very reliable in general. Most of our bigger customers will replace machines every 5 years (this is New Zealand - maybe US organizations are more vigilante). They will start cycle with majority of basic business grade notebooks and desktops (with a few higher-end units for management) and to my knowledge frequency of hardware faults will not grow much - in fact, after first couple of months where eventual factory faults usually show, line will be very steady till the end. In that period, most companies will try to avoid upgrading OS, but most will also try to stick with same version of Office if they can; only their specific business apps are likely to change regardless of hardware.

Not after you play Bruce Willis sidekick in Die Hard 4

Anyway, so many people agreed that PC guy was stealing the show... Apple can probably find more likeable dude for Mac guy... \

They are passable for computer experts, but not for regular users. The free solutions do not work just fine. They allow far too much malwareespecially zero day malwareonto the system. The article also didn't address the fact that none of these anti-virus clients do even a passable job of stopping ad/spyware. If you want good anti-virus you've got to get something like Nod32 which, while more affordable than Norton or McAfee, still costs.

Additionally, with a PC you have to factor in the cost of repairs when running into Malware (hundreds for casual users, plenty of time for computer experts). I can remove any virus that infects a Windows computer, but the time I lose doing it is unacceptable. I guess it is fine if you don't mind wasting your time cleaning up after a virus. It also isn't cool to have to worry about such a thing whenever you need to explore the depths of the internet.


There's no competing with iLife. Period. You can find freeware programs that do those things, but none of themeven mid-range paid software for three times the priceperforms anywhere near as elegantly or reliably, nor do you enjoy cross-program integration. I don't use iLife myself (I use programs like Aperture instead), but if I were a home user those programs would be amazing.


Windows 7 is coming along much more nicely than Vista, as you probably know if you've used the beta, but it is still only a glimpse of what Vista should have beenand it is still much much slower than Windows XP.

I'm not sure why Apple bothered to "respond" to those pathetic Microsoft ads. Only to try to set the record straight, I guess, but unnecessary.

Still, it was a well reasoned, measured and professional response that hit all the key points. MS is basically full of shit and most everyone seems to know it at this point.

Why do so many PeeSea trolls come crawling out of the sewers to pollute Mac blogs is beyond me. Mac users can't be bothered to do the reverse.

I've heard there are treatments available for Windows induced Stockholm Syndrome.

I think your comparison is a bit off. A $12 bottle compared to the $10 is more realistic. Only the $12 one is bought on the recommendation of a wine expert and the $10 one is bought off the shelf and when opened is corked.

Microsoft has recently hired freeBSD developers due to them buying Danger (the maker of the sidekick) it's a shame they don't just make a new os based on bsd, and maybe throw in a free virtualised version of XP in the mix..

You say-"Let's face it, macs are for people in design, people who like cutting edge high end toys, and idiots."

Fine job of insulting 99% of the posters on this board. Surely there is a reason for this pointless banter. Why else would someone just throw in the word "idiots" when referring to a certain group of users? Typical unsubstantiated babble!!

I think it's more like the $12 bottle can only be opened with a proprietary bottle opener, it can't be poured into all kinds of glasses and while the bottle looks fancy, the contents aren't really all that great.

When it comes to laptops, Macbooks have a lot going for them but they are also lacking in some areas. The whole display adapter thing is just an annoyance because not all of them work properly (like the dual DVI adapter) and not all connections are covered. The laptop displays could also be a lot better.

Both Apple and Microsoft should stop bashing each other's products. How about standing on your own strengths? Personally I feel that at this point Win7 is in many way more pleasant to use than OSX Leopard. We'll see if Snow Leopard tips the scale the other way.

Unfortunately my mother does not have a basement.

Unless they've worked out how to hijack the lights on my router I'll take my chances.

You're so naive. Sending a keystroke log may produce enough activity to make your router blink for a few seconds, once a day.

This is similar to the Xbox 360 vs. PS3 debate.

The Xbox 360 is cheaper but is missing quite a few features found on the PS3 like Blu-Ray and WiFi. The PS3 is the more expensive console but you get all of these features built-in.

The PS3 is better value if you're going to use all of the features it includes. If you've got a wired network and no interest in movies then the Xbox 360 provides a comparable experience for a lot less money. It's horse for courses.

If you're going to use all of the software that comes with a Mac then it's a no-brainer. If you're not, the decision is less clear cut.

For the record, I've not once contracted a virus on Windows. I don't even run virus protection on my desktop PC. Perhaps I'm lucky? Perhaps its because I don't download pirated software?

The reason of not arguing further is because it isn't easy to explain UI effectiveness when I can't post pics easily along with my article other than pasting pics through a link in this forum.

Your childish response of disagreeing with one's opinion while not bothering with what the opinion has to say is simply an act of ignorance. If you're not going to (or even bothered to) comprehend the most obvious example I gave, that's fine with me.

I'm just giving you the most obvious example. There are also lots of other bad UI elements other than color contrast in Leopard, and these craps did not exist on older Mac OS X releases before. I don't want to spend that much time flipping through different links to post a pic on this forum just to get one single point across and then being taken as something slight. I prefer uploading my own pics to explain UI, which I can't do on this forum. Read John Siracusa's review on Leopard and you will probably have a better picture. (Not that I totally agree with Siracusa.)

It's no surprise that one will argue that the example I gave is slight. Basically anyone can also use that rationale to justify Vista's horrible UI experience as well. UI has always been taken as a slight thing to bother. That is why people in Redmond never gets the UI experience right, despite twenty years of being a copy cat.

One of the important reasons why Mac has a better UI experience is because Apple always had paid lots of detail attention on every single visual element, especially for the sake for visual effectiveness rather than visual coolness. If you go back to the development of the original Mac, you will be surprised how much effort they put on visual details and experiments (some of them are just drawing different artistic patterns over and over again), not just for the sake of aesthetic, but more importantly for the sake of visual effectiveness.

One major flaw in the car analogy: An 08 Focus generally 'just works' and can be driven safely on the roads 'out of the box'. I struggle to think of a car brand that matches the level of dangerous incompetence that I associate with Windows.

OK NM... First of all I would hope that being in "design" or being "a fan of the cutting edge" is not an insult. Idiot is... Better phrased... Have you ever been to a mac store?

I go often... Full of college kids and old ladies... Seriously... It is a great system for someone who doesn't need the overhead of learning the in's and out's of computing. It is tremendously streamlined. You can't escape the fact that there probably are a lot of "switchers" that formerly on their pcs and were responding to the Nigerian scam. PC's are dangerous to most people... And most people are not that technically oriented. That is the group. Technically challenged. 90% of the huge home market... Yes it is a great product...

I have 3 macs in the house. I am not insulting mac users. I hot modded oc'd an $80 emac for my daughter when she was 3 and she loved it. She could use it right away. I have probably "sold" at least 10 to people who had limited experience and didn't need it for an enterprise environment.

Any disdain I have related to a mac is not directed at the users... I have a problem with Apple's strategy. I have dealt with their corporate office. There was a fiasco with Leopard when it was released. It was reported here. In the first version, if a move operation was aborted then it would delete the original. That happened to me. It was a huge ordeal with Apple.

And they failed from a technical point (how can something of this magnitude not get caught in beta).

And they failed me from a product support angle. I had to talk to their VP of retail before I got a result. Pretty bad. That is the arrogance I am talking about and that is what you see in this article. Jobs is a visionary but he is surrounded by a snobbish arrogant group of automatons.

here here... Clever response... Well noted... Yes, despite my comment, I have lived with my parents at a point in my adult life... And I would have loved a nice finished basement. They were the Costanza years.

Love the Seinfeld reference!

Also reminds me of the time George and Lloyd Braun were selling computers. They weren't Macs, that's for sure.

Serenity now!!!

"Duck" tape?

Really?

Another brain surgeon joins the ranks of AI.

He's so famous that you can't remember his name?

I have to agree with you... You make some great points on here. It seems that you can be a mac fan but if post any criticism which in your case is constructive some Jackals will pounce.

The point you make is what I am trying to make. Take the blinders off Apple (and users) and work to improve what is already good.

They are dumbing down things unfortunately. And I feel that it alienates some of the base. Even the iLife suite could be improved by having some sort of advanced mode that could allow for better filtering, organization. Sometimes quite limited but yet amazingly iPhoto has near government grade face recognition.

If you want an example of bad UI try to gift a large quantity of items to someone in iTunes. That is just something I did yesterday and just couldn't understand why they didn't have a basket. Amazing that they can overlook the "internet infancy era" BASKET.

The thing is that there is some arrogance. I have contacted them directly on improvements and have always gotten an engineer who is in complete denial that there is a problem. Free advice... I felt it worthy. Much like the "Basket" referenced. For however big the gift program is I will be that the bad UI is costing them at least 20% of sales in that segment.

Lloyd, my favorite episode... Ding! Quote that constantly.... So many Lloyds I have come across in business... Delusional lunatics with fictitious accomplishments that many times are rewarded by upper management (Frank Costanza)...

Don't mind Wilco, CsharpBsharp, he just posts one liners that never add anything to the conversation and, like his comment above, he is usually completely wrong with his knowledge.

You are probably a really cute, but annoying kid. Don't worry you will grow out of it. What does Apple hiring IBM's top chip maker have to do with anything? First, IBM doesn't build PCs anymore because the machines were so expensive only a few people would buy them. It sold that business to Lenovo. Lenovo uses Chinese slave labor to bring the cost down, but you will notice that computer wasn't featured in Microsoft's ad because it is still priced on the high end of things. Second, perhaps you didn't know it, but Apple actually makes other products like iPods and iPhones. Apple hired the guy to help develop those things (at least according to Apple and Papermaster). Third, IBM didn't use it's own chips in it's PCs. It used Intel chips. IBM sells its chips Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo to use in their game machines. It also uses its chips in its high end servers.

This is "duck" tape:
http://www.galleryone.com/images/bul...-duck-tape.jpg
Used when you just can't take one more "AFLAC"!

This is duct tape:
http://www.ducttapefashion.com/
As you can see it has many purposes and can be quite fashionable...
Gotta go... Doing my morning wrap (around my head)... To keep it from exploding.

AFLAC!

THe comparision if not that simple. Both the XBox and PS3 use chips designed by IBM. However, the performance is not equal. Although both are similar, PS3 is a better chip.

I agree with you. It's unfortunate.

I always find it funny when many ignorant Apple fans touts Mac as a high standard product while on the other hand argues that high standard is unnecessary when Apple lowers the bar.