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Apple responds to Microsoft ads: "a PC is no bargain" - Page 9

post #321 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

You seem to really not understand the engineering challenge of fitting a high-performance machine into a 1" thick laptop vs. a 1.5" laptop. Don't pretend there is no difference when the difference is 50% in thickness.

Now, there are plenty out there who say that Apple could just produce a 1.5" laptop, then. But that's not what the MacBook pro is all about. If you want a 1.5" laptop, and can accept Windows, then get the Asus. If you want a 1" thick laptop, you may be able to find other PCs that fit that form factor, but they will be comparable in price to the MacBook Pro.

Don't pretend you're too ignorant to know the cost of that 0.5" and claim that Apple is ripping you off.

0.5" is not worth $1300. I'm sure I'm not in the minority with my opinion here. 2.5" thick is a bit large I agree; 1.5" is not.

the Macbook pro's slimmer form factor comes from a few things:

1: Quanta and Apple decided to use a low profile optical drive. This was a major drawback in the original Macbook Pros because it significantly increased the price of the drive and the original Macbook Pro could not burn DL media (MAJOR drawback). Newer slim-line 9mm drives however burn DL media just fine, though the drive is much more expensive than the standard 12mm drives.

2: Battery is soldered/not easily replaceable

3: CPU is soldered (saves height of the cpu socket, maybe allows for a slimmer heatsink

4: no Expresscard/54 slot (/34 only)

5: no easy replaceable parts (DVD Drive, wifi card and especially hard disk)

6: theoretically the aluminum enclosure makes heat dissipation better, which allows a slimmer notebook. THe Macbook Pro gets hot, just like a standard PC notebook. Same CPU, same GPU, same Chipset.

There are many laptop manufacturers who make slim notebooks. I personally think the whole slim argument is dumb, as $1300 is not worth 0.5" of thickness, some aluminum and a magsafe power connector. Apple seriously needs to do something about their prices of their machines, they are way out of line with the rest of the industry. The only really cool feature I like about the MBPs is the backlit keyboard. This is worth $50 or $100 to me, not $1300.

Considering everything, I would say the Macbook Pro in a 17" should retail for $1699, not $2799.

The 15" should be around $1200.

Keep in mind these prices are still way more than an ASUS with the same or better parts.

Apple has never been about value for the dollar. Their machines are grossly overpriced and are of excessive profit margin. They artificially limit their products (solder batteries, solder cpus, require 20 screws to replace hard disk) to achieve this goal of locking in customers into higher margin products.

I mean why do I need to pay $1000 more to get a ExpressCard/34 slot and FW, which is not fouund on the normal Macbook? This is even on cheap $400 PC notebooks.
post #322 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakorai View Post

EFI-X is an awesome thing for computer users. Mac OS X without as much of the Apple Tax (you still have to pay $150 to get the dongle though).

And Mac OS X.
post #323 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakorai View Post

0.5" is not worth $1300. I'm sure I'm not in the minority with my opinion here. 2.5" thick is a bit large I agree; 1.5" is not.

Fortunately, Apple do not sell to the "majority" in their business model. Fortunately as well, there are plenty for whom that 0.5" and OSX is well worth that $1300.
post #324 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakorai View Post

0.5" is not worth $1300. I'm sure I'm not in the minority with my opinion here. 2.5" thick is a bit large I agree; 1.5" is not.

the Macbook pro's slimmer form factor comes from a few things:

1: Quanta and Apple decided to use a low profile optical drive. This was a major drawback in the original Macbook Pros because it significantly increased the price of the drive and the original Macbook Pro could not burn DL media (MAJOR drawback). Newer slim-line 9mm drives however burn DL media just fine, though the drive is much more expensive than the standard 12mm drives.

2: Battery is soldered/not easily replaceable

3: CPU is soldered (saves height of the cpu socket, maybe allows for a slimmer heatsink

4: no Expresscard/54 slot (/34 only)

5: no easy replaceable parts (DVD Drive, wifi card and especially hard disk)

6: theoretically the aluminum enclosure makes heat dissipation better, which allows a slimmer notebook. THe Macbook Pro gets hot, just like a standard PC notebook. Same CPU, same GPU, same Chipset.

There are many laptop manufacturers who make slim notebooks. I personally think the whole slim argument is dumb, as $1300 is not worth 0.5" of thickness, some aluminum and a magsafe power connector. Apple seriously needs to do something about their prices of their machines, they are way out of line with the rest of the industry. The only really cool feature I like about the MBPs is the backlit keyboard. This is worth $50 or $100 to me, not $1300.

Considering everything, I would say the Macbook Pro in a 17" should retail for $1699, not $2799.

The 15" should be around $1200.

Keep in mind these prices are still way more than an ASUS with the same or better parts.

Apple has never been about value for the dollar. Their machines are grossly overpriced and are of excessive profit margin. They artificially limit their products (solder batteries, solder cpus, require 20 screws to replace hard disk) to achieve this goal of locking in customers into higher margin products.

I mean why do I need to pay $1000 more to get a ExpressCard/34 slot and FW, which is not fouund on the normal Macbook? This is even on cheap $400 PC notebooks.

This discussion always appear to be reduced to the ridiculous.

You make three main points: 1) Value, 2) Customization, 3) Peripherals.

Each of these three are subjective according to the needs of the consumer.

1) A part of this is objective. If you spec out a PC with the same components as a Mac, the difference isn't $1,300. The subjective part is whether a couple hundred dollars extra for a Mac is "value for the dollar." For some people it is, for some people it is not.

2) The HP notebook that I replaced with a MacBook Pro is no more customizable than the MacBook Pro. Now that I think about it, why are you even talking about customization of notebooks?

What notebook has easily replaceable optical drives? The battery was certainly easily replaceable on my HP, it had a habit of falling out and dropping on my feet. And who replaces notebook CPUs? Who even replaces the hard drive on their notebook? I replaced the one in my HP, and the process was a bit advanced for the average computer customer. I had to format, clone, partition, none of which most people know how to do. The only easily replaceable thing was the DDR RAM.

When you talk about value, you talk about appealing to a broad market. And then you start talking about customization, some of which is nonsense and the rest is the exclusive province of people who work with computers professionally.

3) Who the hell uses an Express Card slot in the first place? Seriously. AT&T peddles a 3G network card, and the only other thing I can find on Amazon are devices that are already commonly available on USB or firewire.

_____

Okay, so what you want in a notebook is a cheap price, has the imaginary feature of full customization down to the CPU, and an express card slot that virtually no one uses.

I think your entire argument is a non sequitur. You deride Apple by contriving a litany of standards not met by any notebook manufacturer. Even the ACUS you mention does not meet the standards you lay in this post. Even though it is a close match, it certainly doesn't "kick the shit out of" the MBP by ay standard other than the size of the screen for the price.

Now if we're talking about desktops, then the discussion is entirely different. I'd probably build my own hackintosh.
post #325 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Carrying around weight is a cumulative effect. Something can feel light when you first pick it up. If you have to hold or carry an object long enough your muscles and body will eventually experience fatigue. It has nothing to do with being in or out of shape.

If weight did not matter then why don't people typically buy 10 pound notebooks? Why are smaller and lighter notebooks more popular than the heavier ones?

Please don't twist my words. I never said weight did not matter. My response was to the notion that a single pound can make a world of difference on your back.

I could see there being a "world of difference" between a large heavy laptop, and a small notebook, yes, but if it gets to the point where you're on the edge of hurting your back, and that single pound puts you over that edge, maybe it's time to look at what else you're carrying. I could see a pound being a slight difference, but not a "world of difference." I know what a truly strained back feels like. Maybe my definition of a "world of difference" is simply different from yours lol.
post #326 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakorai View Post

Apple seriously needs to do something about their prices of their machines, they are way out of line with the rest of the industry.

Considering how much money Apple makes (and just made this last quarter) and that they have something like $28 billion cash in the bank, I would say your statement is meaningless.
post #327 of 358
Oh you want to parse the meaning of "world of difference", which doesn't really have a meaning its just a saying.

In real world terms. I used to carry around a PowerBook now I carry around a MacBook Pro. When carrying them around in a bag for a couple of hours, yes I can feel the difference by the end of the day.


Quote:
Originally Posted by iStink View Post

Please don't twist my words. I never said weight did not matter. My response was to the notion that a single pound can make a world of difference on your back.

I could see there being a "world of difference" between a large heavy laptop, and a small notebook, yes, but if it gets to the point where you're on the edge of hurting your back, and that single pound puts you over that edge, maybe it's time to look at what else you're carrying. I could see a pound being a slight difference, but not a "world of difference." I know what a truly strained back feels like. Maybe my definition of a "world of difference" is simply different from yours lol.
post #328 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by WelshDog View Post

Considering how much money Apple makes (and just made this last quarter) and that they have something like $28 billion cash in the bank, I would say your statement is meaningless.

Apple's profits are up, yes, but their profits are greatly influenced by things like their ipods and the iphone. These things are cheap to make, expensive to buy, and fun to own. People want them and they'll pay the premium on them. Apple knows this so it only makes sense to squeeze as much profit from them until a competitor steps up. Makes sense from a business perspective.

Now, in terms of being taken seriously as a computer company by the majority of the market, they'll need to connect to far more people. Their products are grossly overpriced and the fact that they are making profits doesn't speak too much in defense of this.

From a business perspective, they aren't doing anything wrong. If I were an investor I'd be very pleased with everything they do. But as a wee little consumer, just trying to find a product that's cost equals the value, I'll go with a PC.

So ok, why would I care if Apple's stuff is overpriced if I'm a PC person? Well if Apple actually offered things at a competitive price point, they would draw in more customers away from PCs, and that would drive competition. The competition would bring better products to my end. Everyone would be happy. Instead they continue to let PC dominate, and show that they don't care about "revolutionizing" anything, but rather making money.

So, while PC makers are trying to bring computing to everyone, Apple reserve's their mediocre products for the richer consumers, and fails to connect to the average person, especially in economic times like these. All the meanwhile there are plenty of Mac owners who will defend Apple until their face is blue, all so they can really just assure themselves that they didn't pay that inflated premium in vain.

btw i'm not this way with everything. I don't complain that there aren't affordable cadillacs for everyone, but then again, there aren't only two car companies.
post #329 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Oh you want to parse the meaning of "world of difference", which doesn't really have a meaning its just a saying.

In real world terms. I used to carry around a PowerBook now I carry around a MacBook Pro. When carrying them around in a bag for a couple of hours, yes I can feel the difference by the end of the day.

It's a saying that shouldn't be thrown around for every little thing though. "There's a world of difference between pizza hut and dominos!" makes no sense while "There's a world of difference between a row boat and a speedboat" does.

nvm, lets ignore the world of difference and chock that up to you using the phrase too often.

The point was, walking around all day with one extra pound doesn't translate to large amounts of pain. You may feel it, or it may be a placebo effect. Either way if you're walking THAT much, then you'd be looking at more things than the notebook.
post #330 of 358
Is it OK is I say their is a world of difference between Pizza Hut and Anne Marie's Pizzeria on Bedford and 7th in Brooklyn?

I wouldn't call it pain, more like fatigue. Yes the average New Yorker walks about 2 miles a day.


Quote:
Originally Posted by iStink View Post

It's a saying that shouldn't be thrown around for every little thing though. "There's a world of difference between pizza hut and dominos!" makes no sense.


The point was, walking around all day with one extra pound doesn't translate to large amounts of pain. You may feel it, or it may be a placebo effect. Either way if you're walking THAT much, then you'd be looking at more things than the notebook.
post #331 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by iStink View Post

The point was, walking around all day with one extra pound doesn't translate to large amounts of pain. You may feel it, or it may be a placebo effect. Either way if you're walking THAT much, then you'd be looking at more things than the notebook.

A pound of difference for just one object isn't much, but if you're carrying several things, a pound for each object can add up. I don't think that alone is worth $2000, but it is worth something to some people.

People carrying around a 17" computer probably shouldn't complain that much though, it gets to be an awkward size. This week, I opted to just leave my 14" notebook in the hotel room rather than carry it around all day.
post #332 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by iStink View Post

Now, in terms of being taken seriously as a computer company by the majority of the market, they'll need to connect to far more people. Their products are grossly overpriced and the fact that they are making profits doesn't speak too much in defense of this.

What does "taken seriously" mean? You keep saying "grossly overpriced" - how would you know? Do you work for Apple and have information about how much they pay for parts and assembly services? Do you have insider information about how much their development costs are? A MacPro is almost the same price as an HP specified with the same components. How is that overpriced? Many here have posted comparisons showing that Apple laptops are similar in price when fairly compared to equivalent competitor's models. Grossly overpriced is a gross overstatement.

Quote:
From a business perspective, they aren't doing anything wrong. If I were an investor I'd be very pleased with everything they do. But as a wee little consumer, just trying to find a product that's cost equals the value, I'll go with a PC.

Value is in the eye of the beholder. Macs fulfill my value expectations and those of millions of people around the world. Where is the problem?

Quote:
So ok, why would I care if Apple's stuff is overpriced if I'm a PC person? Well if Apple actually offered things at a competitive price point, they would draw in more customers away from PCs, and that would drive competition. The competition would bring better products to my end. Everyone would be happy. Instead they continue to let PC dominate, and show that they don't care about "revolutionizing" anything, but rather making money.

??!!!??!! Why would they "care about revolutionizing". They strike me as a company that really wants to make money AND simultaneously make a product that is of a certain level of quality and design. I think they do that pretty well.


Quote:
So, while PC makers are trying to bring computing to everyone, Apple reserve's their mediocre products for the richer consumers, and fails to connect to the average person, especially in economic times like these. All the meanwhile there are plenty of Mac owners who will defend Apple until their face is blue, all so they can really just assure themselves that they didn't pay that inflated premium in vain.

First I don't believe for a moment that anyone in any PC company (including Apple) thinks or espouses that they are "trying to bring computing to everyone". They are not idealists. Rather competition has inexorably destroyed the quality of most computers by commoditizing them. I think Apple chooses very carefully to not do that. So in many ways they avoid competing. Do you really think anyone runs around here doggedly defending Apple because they are trying to deal with feelings of buyers remorse. Really? You are reaching. Fail.

Your entire argument seems to be based on the idea that every business has as it's primary goal to become a huge, market dominating purveyor of cheap commodity goods. I have never heard anything from Apple management that would lead us to believe that is their goal.
post #333 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Oh you want to parse the meaning of "world of difference", which doesn't really have a meaning its just a saying.

In real world terms. I used to carry around a PowerBook now I carry around a MacBook Pro. When carrying them around in a bag for a couple of hours, yes I can feel the difference by the end of the day.

Also, the bag you carry your MacBook Pro in makes a big difference.

If it's a shoulder/messenger type bag, they're simply not efficient in terms of carrying and distributing the weight. They may be more fashionable in some eyes, but ergonomically, they're a disaster. They're great for causing neck and back pain.

A backpack is a preferable solution, in terms of efficient load distribution and carrying capacity. But not simply a bulky "bookbag" with a padded sleeve, where everything you stuff into the pack clumps down at the bottom. They can be nearly as bad as a shoulder bag.

Think about a low-profile mountaineering/climbing pack that keeps the load (MBP) close to your back and higher up and also has more separate compartments to contain items and allow you to organize things and distribute weight more evenly.

One thing about packs: no matter what size it is or what you're doing, it WILL be FULL! As an ex-mountaineer, rock and ice climber it's ALWAYS the case!

I purposely found a very low-profile pack for my MacBook Pro 15" with lots of separate compartments and pared down what I carry. USB charging cables, etc..

Arcteryx Blade 15. I have the previous Blade 13 pack.
http://www.arcteryx.com/Product.aspx...Packs/Blade-15
Macintosh: It just WORKS!
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post #334 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by WelshDog View Post

What does "taken seriously" mean? You keep saying "grossly overpriced" - how would you know? Do you work for Apple and have information about how much they pay for parts and assembly services? Do you have insider information about how much their development costs are? A MacPro is almost the same price as an HP specified with the same components. How is that overpriced? Many here have posted comparisons showing that Apple laptops are similar in price when fairly compared to equivalent competitor's models. Grossly overpriced is a gross overstatement.

Value is in the eye of the beholder. Macs fulfill my value expectations and those of millions of people around the world. Where is the problem?

??!!!??!! Why would they "care about revolutionizing". They strike me as a company that really wants to make money AND simultaneously make a product that is of a certain level of quality and design. I think they do that pretty well.


First I don't believe for a moment that anyone in any PC company (including Apple) thinks or espouses that they are "trying to bring computing to everyone". They are not idealists. Rather competition has inexorably destroyed the quality of most computers by commoditizing them. I think Apple chooses very carefully to not do that. So in many ways they avoid competing. Do you really think anyone runs around here doggedly defending Apple because they are trying to deal with feelings of buyers remorse. Really? You are reaching. Fail.

Your entire argument seems to be based on the idea that every business has as it's primary goal to become a huge, market dominating purveyor of cheap commodity goods. I have never heard anything from Apple management that would lead us to believe that is their goal.

I'll try and keep this brief instead of writing a book

1.) An example of what I mean by taken seriously is the project I'm working on. I won't tell you what it is so don't ask, but I work for a government contractor who is putting out free software. I once asked in a conference call why we are programming this to the .net framework, and not creating a Mac version. People actually laughed. The response made sense: If a facility can't afford to buy paid versions of the software, what makes you think they will own an expensive Mac that will do exactly what the PC does?

2.) It's already been shown here what we mean by grossly overpriced. It's becoming a matter of opinion at this point. What you'll spend an extra 1300 on I might not want to, and what's worth 2700 to you might be worth only 1700 to me. If Macs fulfill your value expectations, then that's good for you. I hope they would with as much as they cost. Nobody is debating that Macs are good computers mind you.

3.) Almost every Apple conference I've seen Jobs speak at, he says absurdly arrogant things like "Apple continues to revolutionize and push the boundaries of computing." You're right about them being a company only out to make money, good job. The problem is they are in an industry with not much competition. Like I said earlier, we're not talking about cars here. Microsoft got in trouble for having a Monopoly, but who's fault was that? They simply didn't have any competition.

4.) You don't think companies are trying to bring computing to everyone? Explain that to the companies that contributed to the One Laptop Per Child mission. Fail.

Finally, don't take offense to my statement and write it off as "buyers remorse." It's ok to be this way, I've seen it many times. I worked at a home theater place for a year, and in that time I saw countless rich dudes come in and see something far cheaper than what they bought and decide it was amazing. Inevitably they always end with, "But I'm still very happy with what I have, it's got this this this and this." Even when you show how the other item (like a large LCD vs rear projector for instance) was more practical, they would always assure themselves they made the right choice. Wasn't my problem, I was meant to sell the most expensive thing I could. Point is, it wasn't buyers remorse, more like "decision assurance."

You're entire misconception of my argument makes this conversation annoying and dull. All I want is for Apple to make a bigger dent in the market and give competitors a REAL run for the money in the computing field. They have already done so with the iphone and ipod, why not do the same in the field of laptops and desktops?

oh look at that i wrote a book >:/
post #335 of 358
You are right the messenger bag is all the rage these days. I carry a backpack. You are right my bag hangs low which does cause strain on my shoulders after some time.

Ok I'll look into that bag, not the cheapest though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffharris View Post

Also, the bag you carry your MacBook Pro in makes a big difference.

I purposely found a very low-profile pack for my MacBook Pro 15" with lots of separate compartments and pared down what I carry. USB charging cables, etc..

Arcteryx Blade 15. I have the previous Blade 13 pack.
http://www.arcteryx.com/Product.aspx...Packs/Blade-15
post #336 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Is it OK is I say their is a world of difference between Pizza Hut and Anne Marie's Pizzeria on Bedford and 7th in Brooklyn?

OK, genuine new york pizza vs pizza hut. Ya that's a world of difference LOL!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

You are right the messenger bag is all the rage these days. I carry a backpack. You are right my bag hangs low which does cause strain on my shoulders after some time.

Ok I'll look into that bag, not the cheapest though.

backpacks are designed to fit snug. If you put yours on and tightened the straps I bet you'd feel very comfy. Wouldn't look as hip as the guy carrying it on one shoulder though
post #337 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by iStink View Post

I'll try and keep this brief instead of writing a book

1.) An example of what I mean by taken seriously is the project I'm working on. I won't tell you what it is so don't ask, but I work for a government contractor who is putting out free software. I once asked in a conference call why we are programming this to the .net framework, and not creating a Mac version. People actually laughed. The response made sense: If a facility can't afford to buy paid versions of the software, what makes you think they will own an expensive Mac that will do exactly what the PC does?

That's just a matter of opinion and perception in that work environment. In my work environment the opinion and perception are the exact opposite. Where I work everyone has Macs, any one with a PC is the odd man in the room. People feel what you get is worth what you've paid for.

Quote:
3.) Almost every Apple conference I've seen Jobs speak at, he says absurdly arrogant things like "Apple continues to revolutionize and push the boundaries of computing." You're right about them being a company only out to make money, good job. The problem is they are in an industry with not much competition. Like I said earlier, we're not talking about cars here. Microsoft got in trouble for having a Monopoly, but who's fault was that? They simply didn't have any competition. They both have been disruptive to the larger market and have forced their competitors to change the way they think about product design and marketing.

In many ways Apple does push the boundaries of computing. Apple was the first company to make USB, Firewire, and WiFi standard on all of its machines. Their are numerous examples of what Apple has brought to the computer industry. Apple has helped the industry move away from dull beige boxes and create lightweight and sleek machines that are easier for consumers to use.

How is Apple in an industry without much competition? Apple is competing against Microsoft which holds 90% of the computer market.

Microsoft did have competition. MS did not get into trouble for being a monopoly, monopolies is not illegal. MS got into trouble for abusing its monopolistic position and playing under handed games to limit and destroy its competition.


Quote:
Finally, don't take offense to my statement and write it off as "buyers remorse." It's ok to be this way, I've seen it many times. I worked at a home theater place for a year, and in that time I saw countless rich dudes come in and see something far cheaper than what they bought and decide it was amazing. Inevitably they always end with, "But I'm still very happy with what I have, it's got this this this and this." Even when you show how the other item (like a large LCD vs rear projector for instance) was more practical, they would always assure themselves they made the right choice. Wasn't my problem, I was meant to sell the most expensive thing I could. Point is, it wasn't buyers remorse, more like "decision assurance."

Apple could not grow its company based on people who simply wanted to buy something expensive because its expensive. Their products have to perform its job and be reliable.

Quote:
You're entire misconception of my argument makes this conversation annoying and dull. All I want is for Apple to make a bigger dent in the market and give competitors a REAL run for the money in the computing field. They have already done so with the iphone and ipod, why not do the same in the field of laptops and desktops?

I would argue that Apple uses basically the same philosophy for both Macs and iPhones. They both use the same basic vertical business model. They both are premium products in the respective markets and both hold roughly the same amount of market share.
post #338 of 358
Alright sounds as if I'm properly calibrated now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iStink View Post

OK, genuine new york pizza vs pizza hut. Ya that's a world of difference LOL!
post #339 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by iStink View Post

I'll try and keep this brief instead of writing a book

Quote:
1.) An example of what I mean by taken seriously is the project I'm working on. I won't tell you what it is so don't ask, but I work for a government contractor who is putting out free software. I once asked in a conference call why we are programming this to the .net framework, and not creating a Mac version. People actually laughed. The response made sense: If a facility can't afford to buy paid versions of the software, what makes you think they will own an expensive Mac that will do exactly what the PC does?

And thus they choose to ignore a significant number of potential users simply because they have Macs. That is a pretty simplistic assumption to make that facilities won't have Macs because they cost more.

Quote:
2.) It's already been shown here what we mean by grossly overpriced. It's becoming a matter of opinion at this point. What you'll spend an extra 1300 on I might not want to, and what's worth 2700 to you might be worth only 1700 to me. If Macs fulfill your value expectations, then that's good for you. I hope they would with as much as they cost. Nobody is debating that Macs are good computers mind you.

People have said his thousands of times - it means nothing unless it it Apples to Apples and Oranges to Oranges, and the majority of the price comparisons are not. I still don't buy the overpriced argument.

Quote:
3.) Almost every Apple conference I've seen Jobs speak at, he says absurdly arrogant things like "Apple continues to revolutionize and push the boundaries of computing." You're right about them being a company only out to make money, good job. The problem is they are in an industry with not much competition. Like I said earlier, we're not talking about cars here. Microsoft got in trouble for having a Monopoly, but who's fault was that? They simply didn't have any competition.

Marketing hype and bull. Apple refines things, but they call it revolution. Whatever. Yes they are in a market without much competition. They like it that way. Why would they seek to change it?

Quote:
4.) You don't think companies are trying to bring computing to everyone? Explain that to the companies that contributed to the One Laptop Per Child mission. Fail.

P.R. bull - those guys don't care. They contributed to get P.R. brownie points. We are talking about people who are no different than the absurd bankers who have brought us economic armageddon. These are hard core capitalists.

Quote:
Finally, don't take offense to my statement and write it off as "buyers remorse." It's ok to be this way, I've seen it many times. I worked at a home theater place for a year, and in that time I saw countless rich dudes come in and see something far cheaper than what they bought and decide it was amazing. Inevitably they always end with, "But I'm still very happy with what I have, it's got this this this and this." Even when you show how the other item (like a large LCD vs rear projector for instance) was more practical, they would always assure themselves they made the right choice. Wasn't my problem, I was meant to sell the most expensive thing I could. Point is, it wasn't buyers remorse, more like "decision assurance."

Yeah I don't really have that issue. i use both platforms - picking whichever one does the job. I've got Boxx computers for one of my 3d/Compisting guys and Macs for all the FCP/After Effects systems and an IBM on Red Hat for the Autodesk Smoke/Flame. Personally I don't engage in that kind of mental second guessing. After I buy a product I use it and don't spend a lot of time worrying about the choice I made.

Quote:
You're entire misconception of my argument makes this conversation annoying and dull. All I want is for Apple to make a bigger dent in the market and give competitors a REAL run for the money in the computing field. They have already done so with the iphone and ipod, why not do the same in the field of laptops and desktops?

I'll bite, why do you want that? I don't believe Apple can do what you say and still have their products be a Mac. It would be a computer, but it wouldn't be a Mac.
post #340 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

That's just a matter of opinion and perception in that work environment. In my work environment the opinion and perception are the exact opposite. Where I work everyone has Macs, any one with a PC is the odd man in the room. People feel what you get is worth what you've paid for.

Yeah I understand that concept. Macs and PCs are tools and each are used differently. All I'm saying is, the facilities I'm making the best possible software I can for don't even consider Macs because of how much they can spend. It's like this for many many people, not just the facilities I'm speaking of. It's not fair when you think of it. Why should only the wealthy have a choice?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

In many ways Apple does push the boundaries of computing. Apple was the first company to make USB, Firewire, and WiFi standard on all of its machines. Their are numerous examples of what Apple has brought to the computer industry. Apple has helped the industry move away from dull beige boxes and create lightweight and sleek machines that are easier for consumers to use.

Ok look at what I was responding to. You missed my point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

How is Apple in an industry without much competition? Apple is competing against Microsoft which holds 90% of the computer market.

Microsoft and who else? One competitor = not much competition. I wish it were like the automotive industry where not only do you have many competitors, but you even have companies in other countries people have never heard of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Microsoft did have competition. MS did not get into trouble for being a monopoly, monopolies is not illegal. MS got into trouble for abusing its monopolistic position and playing under handed games to limit and destroy its competition.

this is a quote from the judge in the case:
"Microsoft enjoys so much power in the market for Intel-compatible PC operating systems that if it wished to exercise this power solely in terms of price, it could charge a price for Windows substantially above that which could be charged in a competitive market," Jackson wrote.
"Moreover, it could do so for a significant period of time without losing an unacceptable amount of business to competitors," he added. "In other words, Microsoft enjoys monopoly power in the relevant market."
http://news.cnet.com/2100-1040-232565.html

So really it was a matter of Microsoft doing too well and the idea that they could be charging whatever they wanted without anyone knowing it was too much is what got them in trouble.

If I remember correctly, it all started with companies complaining that internet explorer was shipped with the os, and it was even an integral part of the os. From there the whole thing spun into this big frenzy over their hold on the market. Where was Apple in all of this? I remember it was pointed out many times that Microsoft legally ran business in accordance with the law and then got in trouble for doing well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Apple could not grow its company based on people who simply wanted to buy something expensive because its expensive. Their products have to perform its job and be reliable.

I haven't seen anyone say people bought Apple products because they are expensive. What I have seen is people say they are happy with their products, but for the amount Apple charges, they damn well better be happy.

Even I do the same thing. For instance, I bought a 400 dollar video card (gtx280) now I'm eyeballing a $250 card, the gtx275. While reading reviews I always find myself thinking the same thing those richies at the home theater place did. It's perfectly natural. I'm not saying I'm unhappy with what I have in any way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I would argue that Apple uses basically the same philosophy for both Macs and iPhones. They both use the same basic vertical business model. They both are premium products in the respective markets and both hold roughly the same amount of market share.

When I mention the iphone, I'm not speaking about phones in general. I'm talking about the smartphone/PPC market. They may not be number one, but they sure did put a dent in and will remain to be this way for years to come. I have only apple to thanks for products like the touch pro 2. And look at the mp3 player market. People call mp3 players ipods, even when they aren't ipods.
post #341 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by WelshDog View Post

And thus they choose to ignore a significant number of potential users simply because they have Macs. That is a pretty simplistic assumption to make that facilities won't have Macs because they cost more.

Well, it's the unfortunate truth. For instance, a lot of the facilities are the "bottom of the totem poll" nursing homes housing people who couldn't afford retirement village condos. These types of places actually have to bring workers in from other countries like Africa to do the work people here wouldn't do (for the amount they are getting paid.) I do the best I possibly can to make sure the people who work at these facilities have software that runs smoothly and without error. That's why I asked about Macs at a conference call, to make sure they all have access to the software. They have never had anyone call in and ask for a Mac version of the software. We're currently debating on releasing a java version for Linux platforms.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WelshDog View Post

I'll bite, why do you want that? I don't believe Apple can do what you say and still have their products be a Mac. It would be a computer, but it wouldn't be a Mac.

I believe they can. I think there are a lot of innovative smart people working for Apple, and they can use their profits to expand into the lower price range while offering quality products.
post #342 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by iStink View Post

Ok look at what I was responding to. You missed my point.

Ok I see. I agree that "revolutionary" is one of those terms that gets thrown around. I agree Apple is big on boosterism, but hey that's what marketing is. I bet every company wishes it had a Steve Jobs like salesperson.

Outside of the marketing hype Apple at the very least has forced the computer industry to change its thinking about what computers are and how they function in peoples lives.

Quote:
Microsoft and who else? One competitor = not much competition. I wish it were like the automotive industry where not only do you have many competitors, but you even have companies in other countries people have never heard of.

I would reverse that statement to say Windows barely has any competition.


Quote:
So really it was a matter of Microsoft doing too well and the idea that they could be charging whatever they wanted without anyone knowing it was too much is what got them in trouble.

If I remember correctly, it all started with companies complaining that internet explorer was shipped with the os, and it was even an integral part of the os. From there the whole thing spun into this big frenzy over their hold on the market. Where was Apple in all of this? I remember it was pointed out many times that Microsoft legally ran business in accordance with the law and then got in trouble for doing well.

A lot of things happened before that point in time. By that point MS had been in court numerous times for screwing over numerous companies. The problem with Internet Explorer was at the time Netscape was the largest browser. MS began to prevent OEM's from pre-load any browser other than IE on their machines. That effectively killed Netscape and made IE the number one browser.

Being a monopoly in of itself isn't illegal. iTunes and the iPod have a monopoly but no legal action has been taken against them. Apple has done nothing to prevent others from having an equal opportunity to compete against them.
post #343 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by iStink View Post


I believe they can. I think there are a lot of innovative smart people working for Apple, and they can use their profits to expand into the lower price range while offering quality products.

You are probably right - they could do it if they were very careful. Maybe they are waiting for the just perfect moment. And I do wonder what they are planning to do with the outrageous amount of cash they keep.
post #344 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by ls1z28chris View Post

This discussion always appear to be reduced to the ridiculous.

You make three main points: 1) Value, 2) Customization, 3) Peripherals.

Each of these three are subjective according to the needs of the consumer.

1) A part of this is objective. If you spec out a PC with the same components as a Mac, the difference isn't $1,300. The subjective part is whether a couple hundred dollars extra for a Mac is "value for the dollar." For some people it is, for some people it is not.

2) The HP notebook that I replaced with a MacBook Pro is no more customizable than the MacBook Pro. Now that I think about it, why are you even talking about customization of notebooks?

What notebook has easily replaceable optical drives? The battery was certainly easily replaceable on my HP, it had a habit of falling out and dropping on my feet. And who replaces notebook CPUs? Who even replaces the hard drive on their notebook? I replaced the one in my HP, and the process was a bit advanced for the average computer customer. I had to format, clone, partition, none of which most people know how to do. The only easily replaceable thing was the DDR RAM.

When you talk about value, you talk about appealing to a broad market. And then you start talking about customization, some of which is nonsense and the rest is the exclusive province of people who work with computers professionally.

3) Who the hell uses an Express Card slot in the first place? Seriously. AT&T peddles a 3G network card, and the only other thing I can find on Amazon are devices that are already commonly available on USB or firewire.

_____

Okay, so what you want in a notebook is a cheap price, has the imaginary feature of full customization down to the CPU, and an express card slot that virtually no one uses.

I think your entire argument is a non sequitur. You deride Apple by contriving a litany of standards not met by any notebook manufacturer. Even the ACUS you mention does not meet the standards you lay in this post. Even though it is a close match, it certainly doesn't "kick the shit out of" the MBP by ay standard other than the size of the screen for the price.

Now if we're talking about desktops, then the discussion is entirely different. I'd probably build my own hackintosh.

ASUS has complete expandability on their notebooks. Many of their machines have MXM slots, which allows me to upgrade the video card. The issue is MXM cards are hard to find.

By making the machine easy to service, such as the optical drive and hard disk, I can perform upgrades without a expensive service call to Apple. Most notebooks have several bays on the bottom of the machine to replace components. Replacing my hard disk in my ASUS A8J takes 3 minutes tops. Two screws. SATA drive. Use Ghost, clone, done. I have done this a couple times to take my machine from an 80GB 5,400 RPM drive to the new Seagate 7200.4, which is significantly faster. I don't need to replace the CPU or the GPU. The screen is fine, so I'm spending $130 for a new drive, rather than spend $1200 on a new machine.

I am sure some Powerbook G4 owners might have said the same thing about your 3rd point. "Who the hell needs a PC Card Slot?" in circa 2001 or 2002. Then USB 2.0 came out and thumb drives came out. Many devices, such as scanners, thumb drives at this time had USB 2.0 support. USB 2.0 made these devices significantly faster. If I owned an iBook at the time it would mean scrapping the machine to buy a new one, or a Powerbook, just to get USB 2.0 support. This is stupid that I would have to pay $1400 for a new machine to get USB 2.0. Come to think of it, this is totally one of Apple's major problems with all their machines, except the Mac Pro.

The same thing is happening now. Think eSATA. My ASUS A8J does not come with eSATA. It comes with USB 2.0 and FW400. I am sure as hell glad that I have an expresscard slot. I can now use eSATA for backup and external storage. ESATA, according to Barefeats.com and Tomshardware.com, kills FW400 and USB 2.0 in performance. Why should I have to pay $2000 for a MBP (retail) to get eSATA capability. Hell even Apple got rid of the FW400 port on the regular Macbooks.

Expandability and serviceability is a good thing even for novice consumers. Consumer takes their notebook to local mom and pop shop (and not GeekSquad, they don't know what the hell they are doing). Consumer complains of slow boot times ever since they bought their machine. Tech finds out that the machine has a slow as hell 4,200 RPM drive. Tech advises to get a 7k320 HItachi or a 7200.4 Seagate drive for their Core1Duo machine from 2006 (as an example).

Tech cleans crap off of machine, does a defrag and then clones. Presto. Machine boots up 60% faster. Consumer pays $65 for the drive and maybe $100 for the labor. Due to the ease of replacing the drive the labor is cheaper and the techs job is easier. Consumer doesn't have to blow $1000 on a new machine, which won't come with a 7,200 RPM drive anyway.

Say the consumer broke the optical drive. Consumer or tech goes on newegg.com. Tech removes one or two screws to replace the optical drive. labor may be $50 and the drive is like $60 on newegg.com. Most standard 15, 14 and 17" notebooks are easy to replace the optical drive. My A8J requires removing one screw. Pull the tray out and pull gently. Remove the plastic faceplate and install on the new drive. Slide drive in, replace screw. I did this to add a HD-DVD drive that I got cheap off of eBay (I have allot of HD-DVD titles, thanks inetvideo.com =)

Lets do a Mac comparison. Machine is out of warranty. Apple charges a hell of allot more than $100 in labor. Apple will accept the drive from newegg.com but not recommended it because "it's not an official apple part". Consumer pays well over $200 for the same service. Consumer probably pays even more if the machine is a older ibook, Powerbook G4 12" etc do to the excessive steps (see ifixit.com) required. TO be fair the older Macbook plastic models are very nice, as they are easy to replace the hard disk.

The optical drives on the Macbook Pro is a slim line. It requires replacing many more screws and is far harder to do. labor is much higher and the drive is very hard to find.

I have done numerous services on many Mac laptop models. I cannot tell you how much of a pain in the ass it is to replace optical drives and hard disks on iBooks and Powerbooks. We have upgraded the drives on many machines do to poor performance of the factory 4,200 RPM drives and the older machines didn't have DVD-R/+R/DL burning built in. One machine (a PB 12" G4) was a royal pain in the ass to service. It requires removing something like 50 screws and REMOVING THE MOTHERBOARD to replace the optical drive. Apple wanted $350 to replace the drive with the same crappy CDRW model that broke.

The M70 does kick the crap out of the MBP for the money. Better video card, same resolution screen etc. It's not thin, it's not "sexy", no aluminum, no mag safe and no backlit keyboard. Big deal. Hardware is hardware.

The chipset is the same, it has the same Core2Duo CPU, same amount of ram, same FSB, same quality screen, same ACPI interface etc. And it can run OSX. It also costs $1300 less.

Apple's premium may be worth a couple hundred dollars to some. I highly doubt most consumers will be able to justify the massive difference in price between a MBP and a standard ASUS/MSI/HP/Whatever machine. Marketshare shows that this is true, as Apple's overall notebook marketshare when compared to everyone else is still pretty small (but allot better than it used to be)
post #345 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakorai View Post

The M70 does kick the crap out of the MBP for the money. Better video card, same resolution screen etc. It's not thin, it's not "sexy", no aluminum, no mag safe and no backlit keyboard. Big deal. Hardware is hardware.

The chipset is the same, it has the same Core2Duo CPU, same amount of ram, same FSB, same quality screen, same ACPI interface etc. And it can run OSX. It also costs $1300 less.

So:
Positives for M70:
Better GPU

Positives for MacBook Pro:
Thinner
Aluminium
Industrial Design
Mag Safe
Backlit Keyboard
Glass multi-touch trackpad

Mmm. Precisely. Hardware is hardware.
post #346 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Fortunately, Apple do not sell to the "majority" in their business model. Fortunately as well, there are plenty for whom that 0.5" and OSX is well worth that $1300.

Again.
post #347 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by columbus View Post

So:
Positives for M70:
Better GPU

Positives for MacBook Pro:
Thinner
Aluminium
Industrial Design
Mag Safe
Backlit Keyboard
Glass multi-touch trackpad

Mmm. Precisely. Hardware is hardware.

Ugh. Until someone can dredge up the parts list and bring fact to the cost of manufacturing a mac book pro, we'll continue to run in circles and base everything on a matter of opinion.

The only fact we can all agree on is the fact that Apple's market share falls considerably short to PC's. For your average consumer looking for a notebook, the aforementioned features don't translate to the price difference to a comparable PC.

This reminds me of the lexus vs toyota arguments my friends would get into in auto tech at school lol. There appears to be no end to this discussion so I'm ducking out. I've stated my thoughts and the reasoning behind them, and that's all I can do.
post #348 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by columbus View Post

Or that PC OEMs reliance on Microsoft have left them with a poor business model that neither leads to good products or profits. Because of Windows ubiquity, they have very little to distinguish their products other than price. Because of this it is very tempting to cut costs by cutting quality. Of course Sony and others have tried to make PCs into luxury items with their VAIO range, but due to the lack of real differentiation, the market hasn't really rewarded this strategy. Margins are really thin and many OEMs are struggling. The general PC market mainly benefits Microsoft, no one else. HP is No. 1, but they have significant and substantial other areas of interests to help profits.

Care to name an alternative OS that OEMs should be using? Many buyers returned their Ubuntu netbooks because they couldn't use them. Much as I love Linux, its not as user friendly as Windows, and certainly isn't as familiar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Are you referring to VGA? Do you realize how out of date and lacking VGA is? If not, go to Wikipedia and read up on it.

Regardless of how out of date it is, most TV/monitor comboes come with VGA not DVI. Isn't this the intended use for Mac Mini's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trajectory View Post

I can't believe the arrogance of Windows lovers who are somehow threatened by the Mac and it's 5% market share. Why are they so concerned about what we spend on our computers?

I think the Windows lovers are just jealous and feel the need to defend a crap OS that requires the most powerful hardware just to run smoothly. They overlook the one thing these MS ads ignore for a good reason: OSX.

Apple started it by insulting PC users and stereotyping them in their advert campaigns. Windows users are not jealous, merely angry that some poncey Apple owner looks down on them because they put price as a deciding factor in what PC they buy.

No matter how elegant an OS Apple make, they can't really make web surfing, email and Office much easier to do than on Windows. This is 90% of computer activity, and a PC will do all these things just as well as a Mac. The guy who said the average user wants to edit videos is lying through his teeth, or has only lots of very creative and rich friends.

The people who ask me for help with their computers would be just as baffled by their Mac. Someone who can't setup his new ipod because he doesn't have the latest iTunes will be just as confused using Apple's Software Update as he would be downloading from Apple's site. Someone who can't make a simple Powerpoint presentation consisting of pictures only is not going to find that task any easier on a Mac.

Its true that Macs are more secure, but really they haven't been tested anywhere near the level Windows has. When the day comes and the average idiot is using a Mac, and he gets a pop up saying he is missing Antivirus 2019 and he not only clicks the link to download but enters his password too when it asks, then we will see if Macs can stand up to the real security threat, user ignorance.
post #349 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by windywoo View Post

Regardless of how out of date it is, most TV/monitor comboes come with VGA not DVI. Isn't this the intended use for Mac Mini's?

If it was Apple's intended use they would have included a VGA out on the Mini or a VGA adapter. If you think that keeping up with legacy ports just because they are common then how does progress happen? Apple moved completely to USB before anyone else, getting rid of the large and slow Parallel and serial ports on computers.
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post #350 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Every Mac does optical out on the headphone port with the right connector, so you needn't worry about getting surround out to your system.

I guess by "serial connector" you mean VGA? Any Mac can connect to a VGA port with a cheap adapter. Although I'm not sure why I'd ever want to use it, since it's just there to accommodate all those legacy PCs with no other options, and anyone who has a machine with a more up to date video out (including every Mac) would use the HDMI or DVI for the improved image quality.

HDMI would be slightly tidier, but it's not as if Macs are hopelessly crippled in this respect.

He means Dolby TRUEHD and DTS-HD, which are vastly superior to the stanrdard Dolby Digital (which is a old as hell standard). You need to transmit audio over HDMI to support hose formats. DisplayPOrt is very similar to HDMI, sans the higher cost licensing. DisplayPORT supports higher resolution displays, and *tah dah* eliminates the small licensing cost to make Apple more money, just like when they decided to save $2 per Macbook and to eliminate Firewire and NOT make an ExpressCard slot available so someone could add it.

Apple doesn;t need that however as they DO NOT SUPPORT HD-DVD or Blu-Ray playback and thus probably don't see a need to support those formats because it compete's with their own business model (selling movies diretly off of iTunes, which is inferior in sound and picture quality).
post #351 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakorai View Post

... just like when they decided to save $2 per Macbook and to eliminate Firewire and NOT make an ExpressCard slot available so someone could add it.

Where would these go in the MacBook?
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post #352 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

If it was Apple's intended use they would have included a VGA out on the Mini or a VGA adapter. If you think that keeping up with legacy ports just because they are common then how does progress happen? Apple moved completely to USB before anyone else, getting rid of the large and slow Parallel and serial ports on computers.

Isn't the Mac Mini the one that comes without a screen? The one that is most suitable for sitting under a TV as a Media Centre? They used to sell them with the Apple Remote. Seems to be a an oversight on Apple's part if I then have to buy another adapter to make it work with my TV. Aren't Macs the machines that "just work"?

Apple seems to have a bumpy history with ports, considering my iBook G4 will only boot off an external firewire drive, and the Mac Mini doesn't have an HDMI out. Almost like Apple does what it pleases and the rest of the technology world be damned.
post #353 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by windywoo View Post

Isn't the Mac Mini the one that comes without a screen? The one that is most suitable for sitting under a TV as a Media Centre? Seems to be a an oversight on Apple's part if I then have to buy another adapter to make it work with my TV. Aren't Macs the machines that "just work"?

Apple seems to have a bumpy history with ports, considering my iBook G4 will only boot off an external firewire drive, and the Mac Mini doesn't have an HDMI out. Almost like Apple does what it pleases and the rest of the technology world be damned.

You don't seem to understand what Apple is marketing the Mac Mini as. The Mac Mini is their low cost headless Mac PC while the AppleTV is designed to be connected to your media center as an extension of iTunes.
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post #354 of 358
Ford Escort or Herbie style VW Beetle
VHS or Betamax
BLU RAY or HD DVD???
is how I see this choice.
People who use Macs, a lot are designers, ask them why, most will have no idea as in it's just a clicky clucky group to be in, they may say because of software, load of rubbish.
Guy had just said that to me then his Mac crashed, I said that's why they have handles on the case, he said why, I said so you can chuck the blooming thing out the window.
Mac should get over themselves, MS won, end of.
People think Macs are cool, just as people with mohicans think they are cool, so what, I don't want a mohican, some people think HD DVD & Betamax is cool, so what.
I am a designer but use PC's, I like to be compatible with the rest of the world & in the beginning there was naff all software for the mac available.
Maybe Bill Gates should buy Mac & snuff it right out but I guess monopolies commission wouldn;t have that, someone has developed something to be the world leader, what's wrong with that, BG doesn;t use his power to unfairly treat the competition, he is just a million times more successful, deal with it.
Maybe Mac should publicly denounce these virus spreaders seeing as it only affects pc's/MS or Bill should do some nice Mac ones just for them.
As with the afor mentioned, & in Highlander, there can be only one & quite right too, you take the best & that's it, the rest should be consigned to history.
post #355 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNorfolkOracle View Post

Ford Escort or Herbie style VW Beetle
VHS or Betamax
BLU RAY or HD DVD???
is how I see this choice.
People who use Macs, a lot are designers, ask them why, most will have no idea as in it's just a clicky clucky group to be in, they may say because of software, load of rubbish.
Guy had just said that to me then his Mac crashed, I said that's why they have handles on the case, he said why, I said so you can chuck the blooming thing out the window.
Mac should get over themselves, MS won, end of.
People think Macs are cool, just as people with mohicans think they are cool, so what, I don't want a mohican, some people think HD DVD & Betamax is cool, so what.
I am a designer but use PC's, I like to be compatible with the rest of the world & in the beginning there was naff all software for the mac available.
Maybe Bill Gates should buy Mac & snuff it right out but I guess monopolies commission wouldn;t have that, someone has developed something to be the world leader, what's wrong with that, BG doesn;t use his power to unfairly treat the competition, he is just a million times more successful, deal with it.
Maybe Mac should publicly denounce these virus spreaders seeing as it only affects pc's/MS or Bill should do some nice Mac ones just for them.
As with the afor mentioned, & in Highlander, there can be only one & quite right too, you take the best & that's it, the rest should be consigned to history.

How am I supposed to take this diatribe seriously when it's logically flawed and a grammatical and typographical mess? That's right, I just won't. You're basically just trolling here.

But in case you're not trolling:

It's not Apple's fault that Microsoft couldn't use long-established security development techniques. If you ignore history, you will repeat history. Computer viruses existed before Windows was made, other operating systems adapted and found ways to minimize them and most of the industry developed best practices. Microsoft ignored that body of work. We've already seen what a software monoculture can do. If you can't acknowledge that, then you're simply beyond help.

If you think Windows is the best because it's the most popular, then you need to apply that to McDonald's and try telling us McDonald's is the best restaurant. It's pedestrian logical fallacies like this that tell me that you don't know what you're talking about.
post #356 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNorfolkOracle View Post

Ford Escort or Herbie style VW Beetle
VHS or Betamax
BLU RAY or HD DVD???
is how I see this choice.
People who use Macs, a lot are designers, ask them why, most will have no idea as in it's just a clicky clucky group to be in, they may say because of software, load of rubbish.
Guy had just said that to me then his Mac crashed, I said that's why they have handles on the case, he said why, I said so you can chuck the blooming thing out the window.
Mac should get over themselves, MS won, end of.
People think Macs are cool, just as people with mohicans think they are cool, so what, I don't want a mohican, some people think HD DVD & Betamax is cool, so what.
I am a designer but use PC's, I like to be compatible with the rest of the world & in the beginning there was naff all software for the mac available.
Maybe Bill Gates should buy Mac & snuff it right out but I guess monopolies commission wouldn;t have that, someone has developed something to be the world leader, what's wrong with that, BG doesn;t use his power to unfairly treat the competition, he is just a million times more successful, deal with it.
Maybe Mac should publicly denounce these virus spreaders seeing as it only affects pc's/MS or Bill should do some nice Mac ones just for them.
As with the afor mentioned, & in Highlander, there can be only one & quite right too, you take the best & that's it, the rest should be consigned to history.

Wow am I reading this wrong, or are you in the wrong forum area?

I'v been using Mac for a long time. Back in the begin there WAS NOT any good graphic software for PC's, so begin Apple. I for one, I'm glad this happened.

MY Mac is easier to use, much more FUN to use, crashes a lot LESS then PC's, Looks a whole hell of a lot nicer and by the way, why are we comparing Macintosh COMPUTERS to MS software?

In any case, enjoy your PC and I'll ENJOY my Mac.

Oh, Mac's are the dominate computer of choice for graphics, news, print, photo and many other COOL companies around the world for a reason?
post #357 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazda 3s View Post

Microsoft had better not f**k up with Windows 7 or Apple is gonna be all over them like flies on s**t.

M$ already have f**ked up with Windows 7, afaic: I ran Win7 for over a month, in fact until yesterday, and really tried to make it work. But it really sucks. Bad! The state-of-the-art security management that is Win7's premier claim to fame didn't give a peep when a W32 Trojan snuck in (within a week)! The UI is still contrived, unintuitive, and, well... a bit infantile TBH! Also Win7 doesn't work with trackpad gestures! It only accepts clicking. I was forced to resort to a mouse for navigation. That's a major inconvenience, afaic.
I couldn't find even one application that I preferred to run in Win7 rather than in Leopard.

So I uninstalled Win7 yesterday in utter disappointment.
(And returned 40GBs of HD space to productive use!).

So don't worry: Leopard today already runs buttersmooth rings around Win7.
Snow Leopard hones that to stellar perfection.
Apple's OSX is lightyears ahead of Micro$haft's Windoze.
post #358 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rokcet Scientist View Post

M$ already have f**ked up with Windows 7, afaic: I ran Win7 for over a month, in fact until yesterday, and really tried to make it work. But it really sucks. Bad! The state-of-the-art security management that is Win7's premier claim to fame didn't give a peep when a W32 Trojan snuck in (within a week)! The UI is still contrived, unintuitive, and, well... a bit infantile TBH! Also Win7 doesn't work with trackpad gestures! It only accepts clicking. I was forced to resort to a mouse for navigation. That's a major inconvenience, afaic.
I couldn't find even one application that I preferred to run in Win7 rather than in Leopard.

So I uninstalled Win7 yesterday in utter disappointment.
(And returned 40GBs of HD space to productive use!).

So don't worry: Leopard today already runs buttersmooth rings around Win7.
Snow Leopard hones that to stellar perfection.
Apple's OSX is lightyears ahead of Micro$haft's Windoze.

I have W7 RC running in BootCamp, just for fun. If someone just has to run Windows, and some must, it will be an improvement over Vista. There are issues with my bluetooth keyboard and mouse. I cannot run the BootCamp extras from the Leopard DVD. If I do, keyboard and mouse will not function at all. W7 Beta would not recognize the Realtek audio drivers, but W7 RC does. My USB turntable does not work with W7 RC. It sees it as a microphone input. Bummer RS, as you probably paid for the VMWare Fusion mentioned in another post. Perhaps we need a thread of Windows programs that people here, either can't or don't want to live without. In some cases, like the business my brother has, it would cost him $$$ to switch everything over to Mac. His Adobe stuff alone would be astronomical. I am fed up with at least one person who has nothing better to do than slam Microsoft.
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