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New iMac owners see Radeon HD 4850-related lock-up issue - Page 4

post #121 of 183
Dang, I ordered one the day after they announced them. (and it STILL hasn't shipped)

I'm thinking about cancelling my order now. I don't want to get it and then have issues. My LAST iMac started having system freeze issues. (a G4) Now I've waited all this time in hopes of a new better system and gee... looks like I may be back in the same boat.

Way to go AAPL. Anyone else had crazy long shipping delays?
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post #122 of 183
Stuff like this just goes to show that guess what: Apple uses the same internals as standard PCs, including Dell and HP and such. Therefore, privy to the same hardware failures. More so when you make your cases too thin and inadequate cooling systems. Heat was the reason my ATI chip in my MBP died just outside of a year of ownership.

Same internals as your normal PC. Go figure. And these cost how much again? I built a computer with much better specs as the current iMac, and with a 20in screen included, still came out to 700 bucks. Same internals folks.

Apple, suggestion. Work on your cooling in your hardware, as right now, its what plaques your systems. Thin and attractive is one thing... working hardware is another.
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post #123 of 183
Quote:
Same internals as your normal PC. Go figure. And these cost how much again? I built a computer with much better specs as the current iMac, and with a 20in screen included, still came out to 700 bucks. Same internals folks.

Just wondering if any "Hackentosh" type rigs are suffering the same problems?
Might point to software/drivers as opposed to hardware/cooling as the solution.

Or it could be a really great argument for getting the extended warantee - I always do.
post #124 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by camroidv27 View Post

Stuff like this just goes to show that guess what: Apple uses the same internals as standard PCs, including Dell and HP and such. Therefore, privy to the same hardware failures. More so when you make your cases too thin and inadequate cooling systems. Heat was the reason my ATI chip in my MBP died just outside of a year of ownership.

Same internals as your normal PC. Go figure. And these cost how much again? I built a computer with much better specs as the current iMac, and with a 20in screen included, still came out to 700 bucks. Same internals folks.

Apple, suggestion. Work on your cooling in your hardware, as right now, its what plaques your systems. Thin and attractive is one thing... working hardware is another.

That's not always true though. At the board level there are are often different parts. But when discussing GPU's and CPU's along with their support chips, apple has no choice. It's basically down to Nvidia and ATI, at least until Intel comes out with Larrabee next year.
post #125 of 183
While this is obviously not an iMac thing. It's interesting nonetheless, as we're talking about GPUs:

http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/
post #126 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

In a near-repeat of an issue that plagued the aluminum iMac early on, owners of new iMacs equipped with the ATI Radeon HD 4850 graphics chipset are encountering frequent system freeze issues.

Various buyers reporting back to AppleInsider, as well as those in Apple's support forums (one, two), describe an issue where iMacs custom-ordered with the faster video hardware will hard-lock at random, forcing the user to reboot.

The freezes occur regardless of what software happens to be running and aren't even connected to whether or not the user is running Mac OS X; some testing the issue note that it happens when running Windows in Boot Camp, where Mac-only drivers wouldn't be a factor. None of the typical troubleshooting steps have an effect on the flaw, including resets for the PRAM or the SMC unit that are often used to diagnose hardware-only problems.

What, exactly, is rendering these systems unusable remains a mystery, though the symptoms will be eerily familiar for early adoptees of the aluminum all-in-one desktop. In the fall of 2007, owners (and AppleInsider) reported an interface freeze issue where the interface would become virtually unresponsive, even while some tasks would continue to run. The new issue is more severe as it appears to halt all activity, though in the previous situation Apple ultimately still needed to fix the freezing through a firmware update that modified the behavior of the video chipset itself.

Apple may already be aware of the issue. Some of those calling the company's support line have heard from technicians that there are numerous reports and that a fix is in the works, possibly arriving along with the looming Mac OS X 10.5.7 update. Some are being offered replacement systems after unsuccessful troubleshooting.

I've always had issues with ATI cards in my Mac's. I'd go with whatever the highest performing Nvidia GPU. I believe that's the GT130 for the new iMacs. Once AMD took them over seems like Graphics takes a back seat.... My 2 cents
post #127 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightstriker View Post

So why does apple score an 80 in overall customer experiance?

Because there are enough fan boys buying Apple products that when they are asked about problems in those surveys, they simply ignore them and report all is well. Or, if they do report a problem, its scope is minimized.

-kpluck

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post #128 of 183
Well I can't say I'm surprised. I vaguely remember people were having the same issue with this card on PC's. It was the Sapphire 4850 if I remember correctly. I think it was a matter of updating the drivers to fix it.

I was looking at getting two 4850's when they came out then decided against it. Knowing my luck I probably would have been one of the people with issues.
post #129 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by kpluck View Post

Because there are enough fan boys buying Apple products that when they are asked about problems in those surveys, they simply ignore them and report all is well. Or, if they do report a problem, its scope is minimized.

-kpluck

OR, it COULD be that people like it? When have you ever owned a product that you had issues with that you kept silent about? I don't know a single person who does that.

Sorry, just think that your explanation is too convenient lol
post #130 of 183
Well it is beginning to look like the issue might just be something to do with using WiFi.

Those who are reporting the lock ups have been using WiFi while those who aren't reporting lock ups have been using ethernet with WiFi disabled.

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=688393
post #131 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrENGLISH View Post

Well it is beginning to look like the issue might just be something to do with using WiFi.

Those who are reporting the lock ups have been using WiFi while those who aren't reporting lock ups have been using ethernet with WiFi disabled.

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=688393

That's hilarious if true.
post #132 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by arklab View Post

Just wondering if any "Hackentosh" type rigs are suffering the same problems?
Might point to software/drivers as opposed to hardware/cooling as the solution.

Or it could be a really great argument for getting the extended warantee - I always do.

If it is a heat issue, probably not. Traditional desktop tower-style computers are just under a lot less thermal stress than the sort of thin, quiet, almost small-form-factor computers Apple makes. They have bigger fans and more room inside for air to circulate.

So you're right that it might point to a software vs hardware problem, but ultimately it is up to Apple's engineers to fix it either way.
post #133 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by kpluck View Post

Because there are enough fan boys buying Apple products that when they are asked about problems in those surveys, they simply ignore them and report all is well. Or, if they do report a problem, its scope is minimized.

-kpluck

Mac users are known as being the biggest complainers. We tend to expect everything to be perfect, when it's just the slightest bit off, people aren't happy.

PC owners don't expect things to work well from the start. Yet they complain much more.
post #134 of 183
Edited for quote issues. Will post corrected version.
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post #135 of 183
Double post. Same problem as above
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post #136 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

But neither of you have justified your statements that essentially ALL manufacturing in China is poor, flawed, or whatever other accusations you want to make.

You seem to have lost track of who said what. sflocal made the more blanket statement. JDW backed up much, but not all, of what sflocal said. I related my own manufacturing experience in both Japan and China to agree with what JDW said.
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post #137 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I DO take exception of blanket statements about whole industries when you only have some knowledge of it in the line in which you work.

Maybe we should all meet up at the next MacWorld or the World Wide Developers Conference. Then we can all flop our "knowledge" on the table and see whose is the biggest?
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post #138 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

And about that moderator thing. Nice try, but there are more than a few sites that would kick you off for just disagreeing.

Why do I get the feeling that you would love to be able to use that excuse? You just made my point about the 500 gorilla in the room. Moderators should moderate, not subjugate.
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post #139 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by justflybob View Post

You seem to have lost track of who said what. sflocal made the more blanket statement. JDW backed up much, but not all, of what sflocal said. I related my own manufacturing experience in both Japan and China to agree with what JDW said.

All I have asked for if for acknowledgement that your experiences allow that others have had different ones.

You seem to be angry that I have had, and know of other,good, experiences in this.

I've stated this time and again. It's pretty simple.
post #140 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by justflybob View Post

Maybe we should all meet up at the next MacWorld or the World Wide Developers Conference. Then we can all flop our "knowledge" on the table and see whose is the biggest?

I know you think that's funny.
post #141 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by justflybob View Post

Why do I get the feeling that you would love to be able to use that excuse? You just made my point about the 500 gorilla in the room. Moderators should moderate, not subjugate.

As you should be able to tell by the number of my posts, I've been a mamber here, and have been posting for quite a while.

It was long after that that I was asked to moderate as well. I've seen few posts where mods don't also enter discussions. Perhaps if I had started out as a mod, it would have been different.

Since you are new here, you don't understand my position on posters. Unlike what you want to think, I bend over backwards to allow free discussions. I've never cut anyone off except for spamming, and over the top language, even while I've been insulted by them. Try that elsewhere.
post #142 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

All I have asked for if for acknowledgement that your experiences allow that others have had different ones.

You seem to be angry that I have had, and know of other,good, experiences in this.

I've stated this time and again. It's pretty simple.

Offended? Yes.

Angry? No.

You came out swinging at sflocal, and seemed determined to make them sound prejudiced, when he or she were stating what they believed to be true regarding their own experiences. JDW jumped in to state their own experiences, and I jumped in when you decided that JDW was an "ass". I think JDW expressed their own frustration with your comments rather well, when they stated that neither of you were "wrong". IMHO, you came back at them rather harshly again.

For my own part, I went back over dozens of your posts, just to see if this was a style, a trend or whatever. For whatever reason, this appears to be the sharpest you have been with anyone for some time. It makes me almost believe that you have a vested interest in China being perceived in a better light than a few of us here have experienced first hand. That's it and that's all.
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post #143 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I know you think that's funny.

Oh for crying out loud. It was a little funny!
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post #144 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

As you should be able to tell by the number of my posts, I've been a mamber here, and have been posting for quite a while.

It was long after that that I was asked to moderate as well. I've seen few posts where mods don't also enter discussions. Perhaps if I had started out as a mod, it would have been different.

Since you are new here, you don't understand my position on posters. Unlike what you want to think, I bend over backwards to allow free discussions. I've never cut anyone off except for spamming, and over the top language, even while I've been insulted by them. Try that elsewhere.

I acknowledge that you've been around for some time. Otherwise they wouldn't have asked you to moderate. A I stated earlier, the majority of your posts seem fair and balanced - just not so in this case. It's the only reason I jumped in at all. Most of the time I simply don't have the time to post much a all. That's why you see the one-liners... snipes if you will... in my style of posting. I often have little time to write an opus on my position, whatever that position might be, and just stay on the sidelines, casually commenting when the mood (and time) strike me.

But your newbie comment did crack me up. I remember when I lived on some property in western Massachusetts. I lived there for nearly 8 years. When I went in to close out my PO Box (rural route - no home delivery), the Postmaster told me "Too bad. If you had lived here a few more years we would have considered you a neighbor."

I may have only started posting here since Nov '07, but I've been in the Mac community for freaking ever. However, I have noticed lately just how many times people dismiss others here due to their "low" post counts. Not a great way to grow a forum, but it will keep it in the "good ole boys" category.

OK, so now can we go back to discussing the issues with the Radeon 4850? Or do we do the "knowledge" thing?
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post #145 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by justflybob View Post

Offended? Yes.

Angry? No.

You came out swinging at sflocal, and seemed determined to make them sound prejudiced, when he or she were stating what they believed to be true regarding their own experiences. JDW jumped in to state their own experiences, and I jumped in when you decided that JDW was an "ass". I think JDW expressed their own frustration with your comments rather well, when they stated that neither of you were "wrong". IMHO, you came back at them rather harshly again.

For my own part, I went back over dozens of your posts, just to see if this was a style, a trend or whatever. For whatever reason, this appears to be the sharpest you have been with anyone for some time. It makes me almost believe that you have a vested interest in China being perceived in a better light than a few of us here have experienced first hand. That's it and that's all.

I said what I did, in response to what seemed to me to be an over the top declaration. It wasn't so much stated as being their experience, as in that their experience gave them a monopoly on knowing the "truth" about ALL of China's production.

I've said over and again, that that's my objection.

So far, not one of you has stated unequivocally that you are not extrapolating you experiences to every area.

That's, as I've said, all I'm asking.

My use of the word "ass", as you might know, was in in response to his calling me one.

I just love how some people seem to get angrier with the one responding than with the one taking the first shot.

If he had called someone else an ass, I would have deleted it, and given him a warning. But since it was to me, my response was milder.

My feelings about China is the same as for anywhere else, I'd like to see truth and fairness in posts.
post #146 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by justflybob View Post

I acknowledge that you've been around for some time. Otherwise they wouldn't have asked you to moderate. A I stated earlier, the majority of your posts seem fair and balanced - just not so in this case. It's the only reason I jumped in at all. Most of the time I simply don't have the time to post much a all. That's why you see the one-liners... snipes if you will... in my style of posting. I often have little time to write an opus on my position, whatever that position might be, and just stay on the sidelines, casually commenting when the mood (and time) strike me.

But your newbie comment did crack me up. I remember when I lived on some property in western Massachusetts. I lived there for nearly 8 years. When I went in to close out my PO Box (rural route - no home delivery), the Postmaster told me "Too bad. If you had lived here a few more years we would have considered you a neighbor."

I may have only started posting here since Nov '07, but I've been in the Mac community for freaking ever. However, I have noticed lately just how many times people dismiss others here due to their "low" post counts. Not a great way to grow a forum, but it will keep it in the "good ole boys" category.

OK, so now can we go back to discussing the issues with the Radeon 4850? Or do we do the "knowledge" thing?

If many of your posts are short "snipes" as you say, then what do you expect for a response? You know what snipe means, I assume.

I thought my post were the fair and balanced ones here.

But, as you say, let's end this, as I'm getting tired of it.
post #147 of 183
Posted above see page 3. New iMac arrived yesterday. Froze within 10 minutes.

GOD DAMN IT! A month and a half wait for this???!!!???

Apple support was useless. No 'official' anything. In fact, nothing unofficial either.

I told them I'd return it to my reseller. My reseller is just as pissed.
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post #148 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Unlike Myself View Post

Posted above see page 3. New iMac arrived yesterday. Froze within 10 minutes.

GOD DAMN IT! A month and a half wait for this???!!!???

Apple support was useless. No 'official' anything. In fact, nothing unofficial either.

I told them I'd return it to my reseller. My reseller is just as pissed.

Wow. Definitely not the way to have to start your day.

Can you keep us posted on the how this gets resolved? Not trying to upset you, mind you, just hoping that you get some sort of resolution to the problem and wouldn't mind sharing it here.
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post #149 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Unlike Myself View Post

Posted above see page 3. New iMac arrived yesterday. Froze within 10 minutes.

Ouch, sorry to hear that. I FINALLY got mine today and transferred everything over. It's been running all afternoon without a problem so far. Going to leave it on overnight and see how it goes.
post #150 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Unlike Myself View Post

Posted above see page 3. New iMac arrived yesterday. Froze within 10 minutes.

GOD DAMN IT! A month and a half wait for this???!!!???

Apple support was useless. No 'official' anything. In fact, nothing unofficial either.

I told them I'd return it to my reseller. My reseller is just as pissed.

We also had to wait 6 weeks for our Mac (direct from Apple) because we ordered it with the graphics card upgrade. Looking at a video on YouTube, before installing anything, it froze. The same day, when we were downloading approved s/w, it froze. It has frozen several times whilst doing various tasks. During 1 case, I called Apple support and they blamed it on the s/w I was trying to install. However, they ran through some basic h/w diagnostic checks which found nothing wrong. It has since frozen again, which prompted us to look on the internet and we found this site.
Our problem is this: do we ask Apple for a replacement? Won't it have the same problem as the current one? Or do we ask for a downgrade with the NVIDIA graphics card?
As a new Mac user, I am becoming disillusioned with our purchase.......
post #151 of 183
We got a new iMac at work last week, but not with the Radeon card (fortunately). It failed the third day after we got it: fan problem. Our reseller promptly contacted Apple Japan, who said that as it was a customized order they couldn't simply replace it, so they would look into what they could do and call us the next day. It's been three days and no phone call yet. Apple has a big thing on their homepage about "award-winning service"... My reseller is furious.

The reseller will replace it at their own cost (the third machine that they have needed to replace within the first month after purchase for us in under a year) and they are less than pleased. Unfortunately, we are now down a machine during a week when we have a heavy project.

I love Apples, but their quality control, support and service really lag behind their design and function. Don't know if this is primarily an Apple Japan problem or more widespread, but it is irritating.

They are raking in billions of dollars and proudly show that to the world; why can't they use some of that cash to make higher quality machines and then provide better support for the ones that do fail?

 

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post #152 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by FuturePastNow View Post

If it is a heat issue, probably not. Traditional desktop tower-style computers are just under a lot less thermal stress than the sort of thin, quiet, almost small-form-factor computers Apple makes. They have bigger fans and more room inside for air to circulate.

So you're right that it might point to a software vs hardware problem, but ultimately it is up to Apple's engineers to fix it either way.

With a 130GT, the iMac is a pretty good machine on its own. I don't understand why Apple keeps trying to make into a PowerMac replacement trying to shove high power parts into it that there isn't enough room to cool. For ideology's sake, they keep trying to make it something more than it is or can be. Also with the engineers, they're the best in the industry, but they are also subservient to the design team. Sometime even they have a hard time putting the desired amount of computer into the space Ive gives them.
post #153 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

With a 130GT, the iMac is a pretty good machine on its own. I don't understand why Apple keeps trying to make into a PowerMac replacement trying to shove high power parts into it that there isn't enough room to cool. For ideology's sake, they keep trying to make it something more than it is or can be. Also with the engineers, they're the best in the industry, but they are also subservient to the design team. Sometime even they have a hard time putting the desired amount of computer into the space Ive gives them.

People are demanding better GPU's, so they keep putting them in.

But I think it's a mistake to assume that it's a heat issue. We don't know that, despite people here stating that it is.
post #154 of 183
Yes I agree its not heat related because it freezes at random times and often when its doing minor tasks that my other PCs have no bother with.
post #155 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by New to Mac View Post

Yes I agree its not heat related because it freezes at random times and often when its doing minor tasks that my other PCs have no bother with.

Also, I'm seeing reports elsewhere that it is freezing on new machines after ten minutes of browsing, not exactly enough time to heat up, or a heavy duty GPU stressing activity.
post #156 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by New to Mac View Post

We also had to wait 6 weeks for our Mac (direct from Apple) because we ordered it with the graphics card upgrade. Looking at a video on YouTube, before installing anything, it froze. The same day, when we were downloading approved s/w, it froze. It has frozen several times whilst doing various tasks. During 1 case, I called Apple support and they blamed it on the s/w I was trying to install. However, they ran through some basic h/w diagnostic checks which found nothing wrong. It has since frozen again, which prompted us to look on the internet and we found this site.
Our problem is this: do we ask Apple for a replacement? Won't it have the same problem as the current one? Or do we ask for a downgrade with the NVIDIA graphics card?
As a new Mac user, I am becoming disillusioned with our purchase.......

Take the machine to an Apple store. Set up a Genius Bar appointment.

You're more likely to get the issue resolved this way.
post #157 of 183
[QUOTE=backtomac;1408002]Take the machine to an Apple store. Set up a Genius Bar appointment.

Thanks for that, I will post back when I get a result.
post #158 of 183
Anyone got successful resolution yet?
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post #159 of 183
I've had my new iMac 2.93 Ghz, ATI 4850 for about 3 days now, and have had it lock up each day so far. I haven't been able to really narrow it down to anything in particular. The first day I was watching a video on Hulu, seconds day a video on YouTube and today it was random while messing with songs in iTunes and MusicBrainz. It will lock up and just hear the music repeat the same 1 second sound bit. I obviously then have to hold the power down and reboot..... starting to get pretty annoying.

I read on another forum about something with monitoring tools using SMART, but only thin I could think of was iStat Menu. Anyone else have any suggestions? Should I hold off on calling Apple until 10.5.7 comes out?
post #160 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by k3n85 View Post

I've had my new iMac 2.93 Ghz, ATI 4850 for about 3 days now, and have had it lock up each day so far. I haven't been able to really narrow it down to anything in particular. The first day I was watching a video on Hulu, seconds day a video on YouTube and today it was random while messing with songs in iTunes and MusicBrainz. It will lock up and just hear the music repeat the same 1 second sound bit. I obviously then have to hold the power down and reboot..... starting to get pretty annoying.

I read on another forum about something with monitoring tools using SMART, but only thin I could think of was iStat Menu. Anyone else have any suggestions? Should I hold off on calling Apple until 10.5.7 comes out?

I'm not familiar with iStat Menu, but Smart monitoring tools ( I use two) are just for the monitoring of the status of HDD's. So unless these problems are caused by HDD problems, which is not very likely from what they seem to be, then those tools won't help.

It's possible that having Activity Monitor on, and checking what's happening to the system might help. If there are some signs of unusual behavior right before lock-up, then whatever process is abnormal might be a part of it.
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