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New iMac owners see Radeon HD 4850-related lock-up issue - Page 3

post #81 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by italiankid View Post

Ya 3 months support! You want a full year or more? Its called Applecare! You got to pay for that SUPPORT!!!

So you can have a year support from Dell or HP at an okay level or
go for Apple's better service... BUT YOU NEED TO PAY FOR IT! IT ain't free....

I thought Apple's warranty was 1 year by default.

Regardless, for a boutique and more costly product line, you expect longer and better support out of the box. I.e., a statement of intent by the manufacturer that they're so confident of their hardware that they'll give a longer warranty out of the box. The high price of AppleCare would actually make me think that the hardware is actually quite naff if I was a new buyer.
post #82 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post

Neither of us are "wrong" Einstein. My experience dealing with Chinese suppliers is just different than yours. That does not mean that your opinion is gospel to all us villagers.

My blanket blame of China in its entirety was not written well and I could have explained it better. Of course, there are always exceptions to the rule. I know very well that China does make high-end products that rival what other very well-developed countries can manufacture.

However, I firmly believe that given the opportunity, even those manufacturers will skimp on quality if they could get away with it. If not by them directly, then by another sub-supplier. Responsibility must be done by the company (in this case Apple) to make sure all components that go into their machines meets quality specs. However, this is a daunting task considering the millions of components that get used each year.

My company deals with directly with Chinese suppliers overseas. I could write a book detailing how they try to skimp on quality that we pay for because we can't provide constant on-site supervision. Ridiculous sometimes.

I don't believe I am being prejudiced simply because I state a vocal opinion of questionable business practices. As a people, I have high respect for the Chinese populace and their culture. So if you're implying I might have a racial issue, it really is a direction you don't want to go.

Don't be a smartass!

I said that you were blaming the entire manufacturing industry, and you were. No one argues that everything coming out of China, or anywhere for that matter is great quality. But to say that everything coming out is poor quality is just as wrong. and you were certainly saying that.

And, no, I don't mean racial prejudice. I mean country prejudice.
post #83 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Messiah View Post

Yeah, I'm actually in business right now...

Then you should understand what I'm saying, assuming you are a manufacturer yourself.
post #84 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by italiankid View Post

Ya 3 months support! You want a full year or more? Its called Applecare! You got to pay for that SUPPORT!!!

So you can have a year support from Dell or HP at an okay level or
go for Apple's better service... BUT YOU NEED TO PAY FOR IT! IT ain't free....

What happened, are they fumigating under your bridge?

You get 90 days plus one year. Anything beyond that is for-pay.

If you've ever owned a Mac or spent any appreciable time actually learning about what you're trolling, you'd know this.
post #85 of 183
Damn, mine should arrive this week after a month of waiting. I wanted to make sure it'd last as long as possible so I sprang for the upgrade on the 2.92Ghz model. Guess at this point I just need to cross my fingers and see how it does. I'll definitely be updating folks on the result.
post #86 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by italiankid View Post

Ya 3 months support! You want a full year or more? Its called Applecare! You got to pay for that SUPPORT!!!

So you can have a year support from Dell or HP at an okay level or
go for Apple's better service... BUT YOU NEED TO PAY FOR IT! IT ain't free....


Apple's warranty on computers is for a full year. There is free telephone support for only the first 90 days, but you can take it into an Apple Store or send it to Apple anytime within the first year.
post #87 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by macxpress View Post

Maybe not but some used to be built in the US. Hell even some Dell computers are built in the US today.

Assembled. The components are shipped from OEMS in Taiwan like everybody else.
post #88 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post

My experience dealing with Chinese suppliers... My company deals with directly with Chinese suppliers overseas. I could write a book detailing how they try to skimp on quality that we pay for because we can't provide constant on-site supervision. Ridiculous sometimes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Don't be a smartass! to say that everything coming out is poor quality is just as wrong. and you were certainly saying that. country prejudice.

There are some harsh words coming from New York City, from an individual who apparently has zero experience manufacturing here in Asia, more less living here in Asia and dealing with factories in Taiwan and China on a daily basis. It's not a racial issue or "country prejudice." It's a manufacturing reality. Any knee-jerk responses here about "race" are ridiculous. (Personally, I don't believe in "race." There's one race on this planet -- the human race.)

Nevertheless, "manufacturing" comments made by sflocal were valid and reflect what I myself, based here in Asia, manufacturing in China and Taiwan, see continually. If we do not have our Japanese staff at the factory in Taiwan or China, a select number of our more electronically complex products do not get built with "acceptable quality." The factories we choose to build in are largely irrelevant to quality. There is a standard of quality that differs from country to country. Everyone in manufacturing knows this. But those of us in manufacturing take "risks" sometimes because we have to in order to save costs. You save a lot of money building in Japan, but you also have a higher number of defects, even with your own staff overseeing production.

Of course, with my company being based on Japan, we are seeing all this through Japanese eyes (along with my American eyes), with the intent of selling some "Made in China" products in Japan (with individual components from China, Taiwan, Japan, USA, and other countries). Most of you in the know will recognize that the Japanese consumer is perhaps the most demanding of any on the planet. (Yes, they will even complain about "lint" on a product.) "Quality" is a critical point to sell anything in Japan, which is why some companies even go so far as to pay through the nose to still build here in Japan (not just "assemble").

The fact remains that Macs in years past, made in Singapore, Fremont CA USA, Japan and Ireland were of better quality than Macs that have come in our recent years. The customer really couldn't care less where the product is made (unless perhaps the product is food). The buyer cares about quality. To argue that current Macintosh products are "good enough" is to deny that products of old were of higher quality and is little more than a defense of the status quo. No doubt Apple has reasons for building in China, just like my company does. But Apple also needs to work harder in China to ensure quality meets the same "premium" standards of quality its older products had, which is a critical point in light of the higher prices Apple lovers (myself included) pay for Apple merchandise.

WIth all this said, it would appear this problem affects the optional Radeon parts alone, not the Nvidia. Hence, it would make sense to examine how those Radeon parts are being assembled, where, by whom, and then take a look at how when and where they are installed in the iMacs. If the Nvidia cards are being built in China and working fine, then it makes logical sense that Apple could (if it wanted to) take steps to ensure that the Radeon cards worked equally well. But they will probably look at a software fix (firmware update) rather than the best choice of a hardware fix, simply because they don't want a product recall on their hands. Software is much cheaper to fix than hardware. It will be curious to see how Apple handles this in the end.
post #89 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDW View Post

There are some harsh words coming from New York City, from an individual who apparently has zero experience manufacturing here in Asia, more less living here in Asia and dealing with factories in Taiwan and China on a daily basis. It's not a racial issue or "country prejudice." It's a manufacturing reality. Any knee-jerk responses here about "race" are ridiculous. (Personally, I don't believe in "race." There's one race on this planet -- the human race.)

Nevertheless, "manufacturing" comments made by sflocal were valid and reflect what I myself, based here in Asia, manufacturing in China and Taiwan, see continually. If we do not have our Japanese staff at the factory in Taiwan or China, a select number of our more electronically complex products do not get built with "acceptable quality." The factories we choose to build in are largely irrelevant to quality. There is a standard of quality that differs from country to country. Everyone in manufacturing knows this. But those of us in manufacturing take "risks" sometimes because we have to in order to save costs. You save a lot of money building in Japan, but you also have a higher number of defects, even with your own staff overseeing production.

Of course, with my company being based on Japan, we are seeing all this through Japanese eyes (along with my American eyes), with the intent of selling some "Made in China" products in Japan (with individual components from China, Taiwan, Japan, USA, and other countries). Most of you in the know will recognize that the Japanese consumer is perhaps the most demanding of any on the planet. (Yes, they will even complain about "lint" on a product.) "Quality" is a critical point to sell anything in Japan, which is why some companies even go so far as to pay through the nose to still build here in Japan (not just "assemble").

The fact remains that Macs in years past, made in Singapore, Fremont CA USA, Japan and Ireland were of better quality than Macs that have come in our recent years. The customer really couldn't care less where the product is made (unless perhaps the product is food). The buyer cares about quality. To argue that current Macintosh products are "good enough" is to deny that products of old were of higher quality and is little more than a defense of the status quo. No doubt Apple has reasons for building in China, just like my company does. But Apple also needs to work harder in China to ensure quality meets the same "premium" standards of quality its older products had, which is a critical point in light of the higher prices Apple lovers (myself included) pay for Apple merchandise.

WIth all this said, it would appear this problem affects the optional Radeon parts alone, not the Nvidia. Hence, it would make sense to examine how those Radeon parts are being assembled, where, by whom, and then take a look at how when and where they are installed in the iMacs. If the Nvidia cards are being built in China and working fine, then it makes logical sense that Apple could (if it wanted to) take steps to ensure that the Radeon cards worked equally well. But they will probably look at a software fix (firmware update) rather than the best choice of a hardware fix, simply because they don't want a product recall on their hands. Software is much cheaper to fix than hardware. It will be curious to see how Apple handles this in the end.

I'm sorry, but I just don't agree with this.

Different companies have different standards. The big OEM Chinese manufacturers, in my experience, and in the experience of others I know who have their manufacturing done there paint a different picture from what you two are saying.

It's no different from anywhere else. All countries produce some fine goods, and trash. Japan is the same, as is the US.

Anytime a foreign manufacturer is used, inspections must be done. If you're dealing with a reputable manufacturer then you won't have problems.

If you demand your product be built to a price that leaves a company with little margin, then that's your own fault as well. And what happens then, happens anywhere.

China's manufacturing industry is younger than in industrial countries, and the government isn't yet aware that they need to impose the appropriate regulations, and so obviously, there will be more variability in QC among different companies.

But, as I said, there more than a few are manufacturing products of the highest quality.

And as far as your "facts" about Mac quality from different countries goes, well, they aren't facts at all. They're just your opinion.
post #90 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post

I'm not coming from an Apple Fanboy perspective though.

Hysterical - then why the need to clarify it?
post #91 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

And as far as your "facts" about Mac quality from different countries goes, well, they aren't facts at all. They're just your opinion.

It would appear that one now needs to debate the precise definition of "a fact." I won't tackle that one, but I will say that they are not merely "just my opinion" is your jab suggests. They are my "15 years of experience living and manufacturing here in Asia." And it just so happens that another "experienced" individual here also has discovered, through first-hand experience, the same truths that I and many others have. No doubt others in manufacturing could also share their experiences, if they happenstanced across this thread.

You appear to be speaking from NYC using your book-knowledge and US media reports as the primary source of your information and opinions. I would therefore encourage you to live and manufacture here in Asia for about 3 years. That will offer some much needed perspective on manufacturing. I say this seriously, with no sarcasm or sinister jabs intended. I must say that living outside the USA for a number of years has opened my mind to many realities that I was unaware when I was living in the US and merely "traveling" outside it from time to time.

But to be honest with you, I wish the situation was very different. What heartache and money that would save my company! Indeed, I wish that my company could get the same level of manufacturing quality "at most any factory in China" as you can "at most any factory here in Japan." But that is not the case, even with extensive training of employees at the factory (although a lot of training is better than no training at all). Such should come as no surprise, however, as China is still very much a developing country with respect to Japan, and even with respect to Taiwan. That's why manufacturing there costs so much less! But again, to understand this fully you need to live here for a few years to "experience it." It's not about personal opinions. It's about "reality" and "first hand experience" in real life, in the world of manufacturing.

But as I said in the last part of my previous post (which, oddly, you seem to also disagree with), Apple needs to investigate the QC issues surrounding its Radeon card, determining the precise reason why the Radeon card alone is affected, and not the Nvidia parts. To "disagree" with this is basically to deny that any problem exists with the new Radeon card, which is rather silly as this AppleInsider article makes it abundantly clear there is a problem.

All of us here want great Mac products, especially in light of the modest premium we are paying versus "piece of junk" windoze boxes. Verbalizing one's desire for "higher quality" is not a crime, and I truly hope that Apple will address the issue properly -- if not but to keep the sue-happy "I've got too much free time on my hands" crazies from filing yet another frivilous lawsuit and dragging down my AAPL share price as a result.
post #92 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hattig View Post

I thought Apple's warranty was 1 year by default.

Regardless, for a boutique and more costly product line, you expect longer and better support out of the box. I.e., a statement of intent by the manufacturer that they're so confident of their hardware that they'll give a longer warranty out of the box. The high price of AppleCare would actually make me think that the hardware is actually quite naff if I was a new buyer.

Yes it is 1 year but tech support is not.

So after 91 days if you call Dell or HP you got support still for up to 365 days. With Apple you will need to purchase Applecare if you want support after 91 days.
iMac 20" 2.66 2008/9 model
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iMac 20" 2.66 2008/9 model
Nano 3rd/4th gen
iPhone 2G/3G
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post #93 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by italiankid View Post

Yes it is 1 year but tech support is not.

So after 91 days if you call Dell or HP you got support still for up to 365 days. With Apple you will need to purchase Applecare if you want support after 91 days.

OTOH, anyone in range of an Apple Store gets one on one, free tech support for life.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #94 of 183
Getting back to the original point of this forum thread...

I received a 2.93Ghz iMac this week with the BTO option ATI 4850 card.

I experience the freezing when I ask the computer to perform GPU-intensive tasks, such as watching 1080p HD videos in Quicktime. The issue is repeatable.

I have gone through the normal trouble shooting steps - resetting the PRAM, repairing permissions, creating a new user account, etc., etc. No matter what, when the computer is under significant load, it freezes.

I called Apple phone support today and will be sent a replacement machine.

I suspect that the issue is heat related, but I really can't be sure. I have subsequently installed "Fan Control" for Intel iMacs to try and better keep things under control.

I am performing a Time Machine backup right now and getting ready for a new machine... I suspect that within the next week or two, Apple will issue a firmware update to address this issue, which will likely result in increased fan speeds moving forward.
post #95 of 183
A firmware and video driver updates are all that's needed. In the meantime users will suffer. Apple should offer to downgrade until the issue is resolved so they don't lose customers.
post #96 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by mac_geek View Post

Getting back to the original point of this forum thread...

I received a 2.93Ghz iMac this week with the BTO option ATI 4850 card.

I experience the freezing when I ask the computer to perform GPU-intensive tasks, such as watching 1080p HD videos in Quicktime. The issue is repeatable.

I have gone through the normal trouble shooting steps - resetting the PRAM, repairing permissions, creating a new user account, etc., etc. No matter what, when the computer is under significant load, it freezes.

I called Apple phone support today and will be sent a replacement machine.

I suspect that the issue is heat related, but I really can't be sure. I have subsequently installed "Fan Control" for Intel iMacs to try and better keep things under control.

I am performing a Time Machine backup right now and getting ready for a new machine... I suspect that within the next week or two, Apple will issue a firmware update to address this issue, which will likely result in increased fan speeds moving forward.

I would be interested in hearing if Fan Control improves things, which would be pretty definitive evidence of a heat problem.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #97 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

OTOH, anyone in range of an Apple Store gets one on one, free tech support for life.

I LOL I love how he keeps trying . . .
post #98 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTel View Post

A firmware and video driver updates are all that's needed. In the meantime users will suffer. Apple should offer to downgrade until the issue is resolved so they don't lose customers.

Why downgrade, when people are still paying for something they aren't getting?

Even a FW update that underclocks the GPU, or lowers the voltage, speed of the RAM of the 4850, still doesn't completely solve the issue, even if it fixes the freezes; it just gimps the card, and might as well sell that GPU as a ATI 4800 or something.

And if the freezing is occuring under Windows and OSX, it doesn't quite sound like a driver issue. MSI sells a laptop with a 4850M in it too, and the vent for it fairly substantial, and it's closer to the CPU/GPU, and probably still runs fairly warm.

It's an issue of QC, either on Apple's or AMD's end, but just accepting a FW fix or a replacement from Apple is just sugarcoating the real problem, as it's just slapping a big band-aid on it, and maybe Apple can fix it Rev C or something, or come up with a new design altogether (and by then, it's a get Rev A or wait for Rev B question).
post #99 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDW View Post

It would appear that one now needs to debate the precise definition of "a fact." I won't tackle that one, but I will say that they are not merely "just my opinion" is your jab suggests. They are my "15 years of experience living and manufacturing here in Asia." And it just so happens that another "experienced" individual here also has discovered, through first-hand experience, the same truths that I and many others have. No doubt others in manufacturing could also share their experiences, if they happenstanced across this thread.

You appear to be speaking from NYC using your book-knowledge and US media reports as the primary source of your information and opinions. I would therefore encourage you to live and manufacture here in Asia for about 3 years. That will offer some much needed perspective on manufacturing. I say this seriously, with no sarcasm or sinister jabs intended. I must say that living outside the USA for a number of years has opened my mind to many realities that I was unaware when I was living in the US and merely "traveling" outside it from time to time.

But to be honest with you, I wish the situation was very different. What heartache and money that would save my company! Indeed, I wish that my company could get the same level of manufacturing quality "at most any factory in China" as you can "at most any factory here in Japan." But that is not the case, even with extensive training of employees at the factory (although a lot of training is better than no training at all). Such should come as no surprise, however, as China is still very much a developing country with respect to Japan, and even with respect to Taiwan. That's why manufacturing there costs so much less! But again, to understand this fully you need to live here for a few years to "experience it." It's not about personal opinions. It's about "reality" and "first hand experience" in real life, in the world of manufacturing.

But as I said in the last part of my previous post (which, oddly, you seem to also disagree with), Apple needs to investigate the QC issues surrounding its Radeon card, determining the precise reason why the Radeon card alone is affected, and not the Nvidia parts. To "disagree" with this is basically to deny that any problem exists with the new Radeon card, which is rather silly as this AppleInsider article makes it abundantly clear there is a problem.

All of us here want great Mac products, especially in light of the modest premium we are paying versus "piece of junk" windoze boxes. Verbalizing one's desire for "higher quality" is not a crime, and I truly hope that Apple will address the issue properly -- if not but to keep the sue-happy "I've got too much free time on my hands" crazies from filing yet another frivilous lawsuit and dragging down my AAPL share price as a result.

No, my experience also comes from manufacturing, and from acquaintances who have companies who manufacture in China. I don't have to live nearby to know this. You would know this if you carefully read my posts.
post #100 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post


You get 90 days plus one year. Anything beyond that is for-pay.

And that's exactly what he said- what's your point? You want support after 90 days you have to pay.
post #101 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

And that's exactly what he said- what's your point? You want service after 90 days you have to pay.

There's a difference between "support" and "service."
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post #102 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

There's a difference between "support" and "service."


?? He said support after 90 days stops- I fixed my post. However, I had no idea HP and Dell give support for a year. But what exactly would they support- Vista questions? I don't think so. What kind of hardware support would you need- like how to add a PC card?
post #103 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by italiankid View Post

Yes it is 1 year but tech support is not.

So after 91 days if you call Dell or HP you got support still for up to 365 days. With Apple you will need to purchase Applecare if you want support after 91 days.

Anyone who doesn't purchase AppleCare is truly ignorant and I don't mean that as a slight on your part or anyone else's part who doesn't consider it a necessity.

AppleCare covers the edge cases and having had an iBook with 2 logic boards, a DVD, LCD panel and HDD replaced, FOR FREE, you bet your sweet ass it's well worth every f'n penny.

Product in question: iBook 1Ghz G4 14". That little bastard is still running to this day 10.4.11 quite well with 1.5GB of RAM and two internal upgrades since for HDD up to 120GB. It run very well and is a secondary system, soon to be moved down to #3 out of 4.
post #104 of 183
so much back and forth about support!


how difficult is it to look up?

http://www.apple.com/support/products/proplan.html
post #105 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

As much as I support Apple and am the first one to side with them on most of their strategies (i'm really one of the most vocal Apple supporters), this is getting ridiculous. LCD issues, Nvidia problems, ATI problems of the past and more ATI problems now.

These issues have to stop. This isn't Dell, HP, or any of the other junkbox makers that run that broken OS, Windows. This is Apple. But for some reason these days, their quality control isn't exactly in line with their lofty mission statement. And this is especially troubling in light of the premium people pay in order to use OS X on supposedly high-quality hardware.

Not sure it is an Apple issue. I work in IT & here lately all manufacturers we've gotten models in for seem to have more DOAs than usual. I think a lot of it might be the effects of the world economy on production in China.
post #106 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Apparently hardware problems are not widespread enough to seriously dent the average user's satisfaction levels.


well when the issue is an online only upgrade that costs extra money and thus only a small percent of folks are going to do it . . .

now if it was an issue with the 9400 card freezing, then you'd hear a lot more noise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It's strange to see these kinds of problems passing through all the testing they do.

there is no possible way for them to test every possible set up, software combo etc. they do their best but sometimes there are folks doing something they hadn't thought of. like all the folks that bought mac minis and hooked them up to the big screen tv instead of buying an apple tv. they had no idea that folks would jump on that idea, so of course they didn't design and test for such a notion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Messiah View Post

(even with the original machines 10.4 discs).

and therein lies the problem. those discs that come with a machine are coded to only work on that particular hardware. it's part of how they keep you from copying the OS to older machines instead of buying a retail 'universal' copy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by italiankid View Post

Ya 3 months support! You want a full year or more? Its called Applecare! You got to pay for that SUPPORT!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by italiankid View Post

Yes it is 1 year but tech support is not.

So after 91 days if you call Dell or HP you got support still for up to 365 days. With Apple you will need to purchase Applecare if you want support after 91 days.

wrong and wrong. the 90 days if phone support. you get one year of parts and labor coverage without any apple care. they likely do that because it's hard to do support over the phone and they would rather you took it into a store for a face to face.

oh and by the by to the folks naysaying on the 'free for life' issue. that actually is somewhat true. my brother has my way out of date g3 and he can totally take it into a store for a 'genius bar' appointment at no cost, just like I can my new imac. it's only if there's an issue that he'd have to pay to get it fixed cause it's about 4 years out of even apple care.

A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

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A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

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post #107 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Hysterical - then why the need to clarify it?

Simple... in the event that your doctor increased the medication in your spiked kool-aid.

I said that to address the 100% glass-half-empty critics like you. My intent was to discuss a larger manufacturing problem outside of Apple entirely where components are made that would slip by the supervision of an interested buyer.

As things usually are with you and the comments you post in AI, you seem to be forever stuck in the rantings of a 13-year-old. I can count less than a handful of times you actually contributed any kind of decent content worthy of debate. Let us know when you're ready to enter the adult realm and dispose of your childish static.
post #108 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

there is no possible way for them to test every possible set up, software combo etc. they do their best but sometimes there are folks doing something they hadn't thought of. like all the folks that bought mac minis and hooked them up to the big screen tv instead of buying an apple tv. they had no idea that folks would jump on that idea, so of course they didn't design and test for such a notion.

I think you would be amazed at what configurations they test for at the Apple campus, for one. Once upon a time I had direct access to the test labs. Granted, it was awhile ago, but it still blew my socks off for what they had thought of and configured. I can't begin to imagine what that place looks like now. Perhaps some day I will find out again.
Pity the agnostic dyslectic. They spend all their time contemplating the existence of dog.
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Pity the agnostic dyslectic. They spend all their time contemplating the existence of dog.
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post #109 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

w
there is no possible way for them to test every possible set up, software combo etc. they do their best but sometimes there are folks doing something they hadn't thought of. like all the folks that bought mac minis and hooked them up to the big screen tv instead of buying an apple tv. they had no idea that folks would jump on that idea, so of course they didn't design and test for such a notion

There aren't that many setups they have to test. They don't have to try every HDD combo, for example. But I would expect them to test every memory config they offer, as well as with any other hardware that's an upgrade. That's just standard procedure.

Quote:
and therein lies the problem. those discs that come with a machine are coded to only work on that particular hardware. it's part of how they keep you from copying the OS to older machines instead of buying a retail 'universal' copy.

That hasn't been true for years. It USED to be true that each install disk had a file for the machine it was for, but that's really old.

The only difference now is if a new machine has some new hardware that the OS must recognize. Otherwise, they are universal installers. I've installed the same disk on older machines without a problem.

Quote:
wrong and wrong. the 90 days if phone support. you get one year of parts and labor coverage without any apple care. they likely do that because it's hard to do support over the phone and they would rather you took it into a store for a face to face.

oh and by the by to the folks naysaying on the 'free for life' issue. that actually is somewhat true. my brother has my way out of date g3 and he can totally take it into a store for a 'genius bar' appointment at no cost, just like I can my new imac. it's only if there's an issue that he'd have to pay to get it fixed cause it's about 4 years out of even apple care.

That's correct.
post #110 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

No, my experience also comes from manufacturing, and from acquaintances who have companies who manufacture in China. I don't have to live nearby to know this. You would know this if you carefully read my posts.

Frankly I think you are the one who has acted a bit of an ass in this back and forth dialogue. JDW has presented his side with frankness and clarity. As I also have had experience with hardware manufacturing in both Japan and China, I tend to agree with much of what JDW has said here. Stating what one individual knows to be true for their situation should not result in your attempts to silence them here.

Not exactly what I would expect from a "Global Moderator".
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Pity the agnostic dyslectic. They spend all their time contemplating the existence of dog.
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post #111 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by justflybob View Post

Frankly I think you are the one who has acted a bit of an ass in this back and forth dialogue. JDW has presented his side with frankness and clarity. As I also have had experience with hardware manufacturing in both Japan and China, I tend to agree with much of what JDW has said here. Stating what one individual knows to be true for their situation should not result in your attempts to silence them here.

Not exactly what I would expect from a "Global Moderator".

But neither of you have justified your statements that essentially ALL manufacturing in China is poor, flawed, or whatever other accusations you want to make.

I never disagreed that there is poor quality coming out of some factories. Parts that are poor quality come out too. I never said they didn't.

But I did say that it isn't universal. There is high quality manufacturing done there as well.

Both of you seem to want to deny that for some reason, and I think that it's you who are being an ass about it.

If you actually bothered to try to understand my posts, you would see that I'm not taking an extreme position. I'm not denying your experiences either, which you should have noticed. But you seem to want to deny mine.

I DO take exception of blanket statements about whole industries when you only have some knowledge of it in the line in which you work.

And about that moderator thing. Nice try, but there are more than a few sites that would kick you off for just disagreeing.
post #112 of 183
This is just the next in a series of problems with ATI chips in Macs so there's likely a problem with their quality control.

At the same time I also blame Steve Jobs for insisting the iMac be so ridiculously thin that it can't cope with modern chips. Make the damn thing another 1/2" thick and there'll be plenty of room for proper cooling, not to mention a design that allows the hard drive to be upgraded without having to remove the LCD panel.

Or better yet, make a mini-tower/desktop in the iMac price range.
post #113 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bregalad View Post

Make the damn thing another 1/2" thick and there'll be plenty of room for proper cooling, not to mention a design that allows the hard drive to be upgraded without having to remove the LCD panel.

yeah I was actually surprised to see how much harder it is to access the internals of the Aluminum iMac vs how amazingly easy it was on my old iMac G5 (rev A). They took 2 steps back instead of taking 2 steps forward like they should have. Esp since removing the glass means you are now going to have to be cautious about dust when you go to assemble it back together.
post #114 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bregalad View Post

This is just the next in a series of problems with ATI chips in Macs so there's likely a problem with their quality control.

At the same time I also blame Steve Jobs for insisting the iMac be so ridiculously thin that it can't cope with modern chips. Make the damn thing another 1/2" thick and there'll be plenty of room for proper cooling, not to mention a design that allows the hard drive to be upgraded without having to remove the LCD panel.

Or better yet, make a mini-tower/desktop in the iMac price range.

I think I said something like this a while back, but I think that Jobs literally has some bizarre form of hardware anorexia.

I picture him looking at hardware mockups, going "Oh God, it's fat, fat, fat! It's hideous! Thinner! It has to be thinner!"

And at some point the thing absolutely doesn't work, and he relents and lets it exist on the bare edge of what's possible, but in his heart he's still sickened by the lard.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #115 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post

Simple... in the event that your doctor increased the medication in your spiked kool-aid.

I said that to address the 100% glass-half-empty critics like you. My intent was to discuss a larger manufacturing problem outside of Apple entirely where components are made that would slip by the supervision of an interested buyer.

As things usually are with you and the comments you post in AI, you seem to be forever stuck in the rantings of a 13-year-old. I can count less than a handful of times you actually contributed any kind of decent content worthy of debate. Let us know when you're ready to enter the adult realm and dispose of your childish static.

If that's not the pot calling the kettle bondi blue, then what is? You're glass is 100% clueless- that's what's simple. You still haven't justified your rant against italiankid's statement that after 90 days you have to pay for support. And if you're so naive as to not realize that whenever any manufacturer releases whatever product with defective parts (components) is not responsible for the release of said product that there really is no need to go further with this. You must think Skippy would not be responsible for contaminated peanuts purchased from vendor Joe Schmo.
Good bye.
post #116 of 183
Why is this even news? ATI's problems with the 4800 series drivers is well documented, at least in the PC world. Go look it up. Their recent graphics cards have been just as buggy for PCs. Its funny to see this is such a surprise for some here. I was actually surprised Apple offered the 4850, as I fully expected there would be some freeze issues down the road. Well well, look what turned up.
post #117 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by italiankid View Post

Ya 3 months support! You want a full year or more? Its called Applecare! You got to pay for that SUPPORT!!!

So you can have a year support from Dell or HP at an okay level or
go for Apple's better service... BUT YOU NEED TO PAY FOR IT! IT ain't free....

Oh man, that sucks!

We get 12 months in the UK?
OK, can I have my matte Apple display, now?
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OK, can I have my matte Apple display, now?
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post #118 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Messiah View Post

Oh man, that sucks!

We get 12 months in the UK?

You get the same coverage in the States as you do in the UK. ItalianKid is just FUDing around as usual.
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post #119 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

and therein lies the problem. those discs that come with a machine are coded to only work on that particular hardware. it's part of how they keep you from copying the OS to older machines instead of buying a retail 'universal' copy.

I think we've got our lines crossed here... my point is that the hardware hadn't actually changed, but it mysteriously required the latest version of the operating system.

Plus, rather than trying to copy a new OS to older hardware, I was trying to do the opposite see if an 'older' OS could be used on the 'new' hardware. As it couldn't, it stands to reason that Apple changed something in there, so that the otherwise identical hardware suddenly required 10.5.

I believe (clarification required) the only reason that the discs for a particular machine won't work with every other Mac, is that the installer only includes the drivers for that particular family of products.

Also 'universal' simply means that the installer will work with both PowerPC and Intel hardware.
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post #120 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

As much as I support Apple and am the first one to side with them on most of their strategies (i'm really one of the most vocal Apple supporters), this is getting ridiculous. LCD issues, Nvidia problems, ATI problems of the past and more ATI problems now.

These issues have to stop. This isn't Dell, HP, or any of the other junkbox makers that run that broken OS, Windows. This is Apple. But for some reason these days, their quality control isn't exactly in line with their lofty mission statement. And this is especially troubling in light of the premium people pay in order to use OS X on supposedly high-quality hardware.

Stop talking out of your ass.
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